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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 15:45:21
Therapy today turned to the changes since we have agreed to have him be more challenging and less supportive. It was such a hard thing to describe. Therapy used to be like this safe harbor, peach and pink and gold like a sunrise, and with my therapist there, open and receptive but with a solid core.
It not only felt safe, it was my safety. At the end of session, I could take a piece of that safety away to sustain me in the threatening world until the next session. I could only hold on to it for a few days, but it was reassuring while it lasted and helped me face the world.
Now I get glimpses of my pink and peach and gold safety, but it's different now. The best I could come up with, and it's imperfect and I'm going to try to work on it more, yet it also contains a core of truth... My therapist no longer feels open and receptive with a solid core. He feels more like a boxer who dances a lot, very light on his feet, very aware and alert. On his toes. But perhaps it's an unfortunate metaphor. It seemed to make him feel defensive.
It's not that I feel unsafe (like, well, the rest of my life does). I just no longer feel safe. I don't think he gets the difference between feeling unsafe and not feeling safe. It seems so obvious to me.
I'm not being critical. I thought it was understood that if I was going to be challenged more, I quite probably wasn't going to like it. I probably wouldn't feel as safe. That all also seems obvious to me. How can it feel as safe, how can he feel the same, when things aren't the same. When what I say will be "challenged" in a different way than he did before.
It's not like he didn't challenge me before. He always felt like he was constrained, but the truth was that he could challenge me. If he did it gently, with humor, sort of sliding it in, he could challenge me without the overall atmosphere being changed.
But we mutually agreed on the atmosphere being changed. Why is he surprised when I comment on it? When I miss what was?
I guess it's possible that eventually as the memories of safety fade and if they aren't replaced, the attachment I feel towards him (which was always based on the safety) will lessen to the point that I no longer will find therapy important enough to me to make the sacrifices that come with the territory. But there's no immediate chance of that happening.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 4, 2003, at 16:01:07
In reply to I wish I was an artist, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 15:45:21
Dinah,
First of all I think you are so courageous to take this step. To move past your safety zone and into a more challenging role with your therapist. I'm sure at first it will be hard. But, don't you think that as he begins to challenge you more, you will indeed find him to be even more of a safety net? As he helps you to find the answers you have been looking for then the confines of therapy will even seem that much safer to you. Does that make sense? I'm not sure I can express what I mean. I think you've already done the hardest part, which is allowing yourself to open up and accepting the fact that you can be challenged. You've essentially "given up" your safety net at this point and your therapist is right there to cushion your fall, if that should happen. I don't think it will, you seem like such a strong woman. But I think that by allowing him to challenge you, you will make so much more progress. Imagine how much more amazing you will be!
And remember, he'll always be there if you need him to be! If it gets rough, don't hesitate to call him. He's there both to challenge and support you. He's not abandoning the supportive role in favor of a challenging role. He's merely taking on a dual role! Think of it that way! He can do both, be supportive and challenging at the same time. I think that he'll be able to tell which is appropriate at what time.
Take care girlie, you're doing beautifuly!
Karen
Posted by shar on December 4, 2003, at 16:33:23
In reply to I wish I was an artist, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 15:45:21
Dinah,
What is it you used to feel safe FROM?
If you don't mind my asking.To me, therapy has always been challenging. So, I'm wondering if this is (a) any of my business, and (b) you wanting to be safe AND challenged, simultaneously. Just because you have an agreement of less support (?), does not mean you can't go back or maybe do a support/challenge combo. Agreements and ideas aren't carved in granite.
Hope that makes some sense, and I'm sorry the sunrise (or sunset) colors aren't there so much.
Shar
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 17:33:42
In reply to Re: I wish I was an artist » Dinah, posted by shar on December 4, 2003, at 16:33:23
From how I feel I guess. From the way the rest of the world makes me feel. (OK, CBT'ers, I know the rest of the world doesn't *make* me feel anything, but now is *not* the time to point that out.)
My therapist said the most *ssinine thing he's ever said to me today. He said I need to learn to live with the anxiety (of something minor). As if I don't live every day of my life with anxiety or agitation as the subtext. As if well more than half my moments aren't permeated with anxiety. From the moment I wake up to my husband's angry quiet movements as he readies himself for work (because he's mad at himself for sleeping late or whatever) and try my hardest to "sleep" and stay out of his way and keep the despair at another day of the same at bay. Till the moment I drop into bed vibrating in the evening, using every relaxation tip I know to quit buzzing enough to sleep. And managing in between time without ripping off my skin with a pathetic handful of tools - CBT techniques, relaxation techniques, a handful of highly imperfect psych drugs, my dogs :), and whatever internalized safety I managed to bring home from the one place I used to feel so safe.
I think my therapist likes the new arrangement and wouldn't easily back up to the old one.
Oh, things probably aren't as bad as I'm making them out to be. I haven't been feeling well lately. It's hard for me to remember feeling better when I'm feeling bad.
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 17:35:16
In reply to Re: I wish I was an artist, posted by Karen_kay on December 4, 2003, at 16:01:07
I dunno. I'm kind of wishing I could time travel and grab that safety net back. I want my old therapist back, and I fear I've lost him forever.
I'm not really all that strong. :(
Posted by DaisyM on December 4, 2003, at 18:02:01
In reply to Re: I wish I was an artist » shar, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 17:33:42
Oh Dinah...can you hear me sigh from here?
Isn't it amazing how the words spoken by someone trying to help can actually make us feel so much worse? I totally get the "unsafe" and "safe" difference. It reminds me of the discussion I recently had with my Therapist about trust. I tried to explain that it wasn't that I didn't trust HIM, I just didn't trust trusting. Period. He said it must be something really primal in me, but I'm not sure he understood completely.
I think you have to allow for the fact that just because you KNOW this might be a move in the right direction, doesn't mean you FEEL good about it. I'm sure he didn't mean what he said as a commentary on your day to day trials or to trivialize what you are going through. It was one of those "challenges."
Change is really hard, even self-imposed and self-selected. Self-care will be really important for you right now. I wouldn't worry about him being surprised that this is hard for you -- he probably just assumed since you said you were ready, you were totally, well, ready. (hmmm, that didn't come out quite right!)
I'm thinking about you. My Therapist has the flu so I don't *have* to go now until Monday. I'm trying to decide how I feel about that.
-D
Posted by Karen_kay on December 4, 2003, at 18:09:00
In reply to Re: I wish I was an artist » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 17:35:16
> I dunno. I'm kind of wishing I could time travel and grab that safety net back. I want my old therapist back, and I fear I've lost him forever.
>
> I'm not really all that strong. :(<<You haven't lost him at all. He will be helping you so much more by challenging you. You seem to be living with so much anxiety at this point and by challenging you, maybe he can help alleviate some of your pain. And he will still support you too. You have the best of both worlds! You have helped me so much by challenging me to be honest with my therapist, my only hope is that maybe I can help you see that your therapist is not abandoning you by challenging you, rather he is taking a different approach that may have more desirable results. And that is what we all want, right? And I'm sure he will continue to support you when you need it. He's not going to deny you support, he is just going to challenge as well as support.
I read your reply to Shar and I've never seen you so vulnerable. I'm amazed, it is a different side of you that I have never seen before. But you live with anxiety and you shouldn't have to. You have every right to find out why and I think that you are on the right track to finding out the "why" and "how" to overcome.
I can't tell you how much I really look forward to your replies. You're such an intelligent and strong woman. Even if you don't realize it. To be able to cope with that type of anxiety on a daily basis takes a strong lady. Your therapist must be thrilled to work with you. And he won't take away his shoulder to cry on. He might just ask why you need it.
Karen
Posted by tabitha on December 4, 2003, at 19:07:52
In reply to I wish I was an artist, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 15:45:21
That's wonderful progress, Dinah. And beautifully put.
My therapist has been different with me lately too. I haven't yet commented on it, but you've inspired me to bring it up. She seems to be doing less coddling and validating, and more pointing out how I have choices. It's not annoying nagging, like 'you can choose to be happy' stuff, it's as if she respects my ability to change. I can't describe it exactly, but I feel as if I've advanced a grade or something.
Posted by Poet on December 4, 2003, at 20:15:54
In reply to I wish I was an artist, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 15:45:21
Hi Dinah,
Could he be aware that things aren't the same in therapy and he is challenging you to find safety within yourself?
I wouldn't do well being challenged, you are stronger than you realize.
You are an artist: "therapy used to be like this safe harbor, peach and pink and gold like a sunrise." That is a vivid and clear painting done with words.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 20:16:20
In reply to Re: I wish I was an artist, posted by tabitha on December 4, 2003, at 19:07:52
I don't want to hear what a positive step it is. I want everything to go back to the way it waaaassssssss. And I'm afraid it woooooon't. :((
Posted by Poet on December 4, 2003, at 20:52:25
In reply to Re: But you guuuuuuyyyyysss!!! :((((, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 20:16:20
You need to feel safe and supported again, what's happening in therapy seems to hurt you, not help you. Could you tell him that you aren't adjusting to being challenged and can he slow down for awhile? Make him understand that the idea of being challenged is good, but right now it's causing you to feel less safe?
I just ran as fast as I could from a challenge in therapy, more than ever I think feeling safe and supported is important. You deserve it to get what you need and it shouldn't be a challenge.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 21:34:21
In reply to Re: But you guuuuuuyyyyysss!!! :(((( » Dinah, posted by Poet on December 4, 2003, at 20:52:25
And thank you for the kind words about my description. I was racking my brains for a way to do my homework assignment and try to draw even though I think I'm no good at it.
To his credit, my therapist is extremely concerned about what I said. He said that he wants to be able to challenge me from the base of safety that we've built up over the years in our relationship, and that if that isn't happening we need to find a way that it can.
I was just really really frustrated at trying to convey what I meant to him without making him feel like I was accusing him or complaining. I believe in sticking to my agreements. I just regret making this one at the moment.
Oh well. It'll work out eventually. At least, it had better work out eventually.
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 21:38:23
In reply to Re: I wish I was an artist, posted by Karen_kay on December 4, 2003, at 18:09:00
Thanks, Karen. I do hope that's true. I do hope he can still be my old therapist. He was for a while today, and I pointed out the difference to him.
I've just grown to rely on therapy to provide me with the courage to face the rest of the week. Perhaps too much. :) I'm perfectly content being a lifer. He says he's ok with that, but maybe he's not. I dunno.
Posted by DaisyM on December 4, 2003, at 22:27:49
In reply to Re: I wish I was an artist » shar, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 17:33:42
Dinah, I came across this article that had with in it the following discussion of safety. It is a long, complex article about trauma. You might find it interesting. (I am not implying that you suffer from PTSD, BTW.)
CAUTION!!!! This article could trigger..
http://giftfromwithin.org/html/chldhood.htmlThe Meaning of Safety—From Whom, From What?
Despite trauma therapists’ view of safety as the sine qua non in achieving effectiveness in trauma treatment, no unequivocal explanations have been articulated to date about what is meant by “safety.” The concept of safety is so ubiquitously used and intuitively “understood” that no one ever seems to ask, “Safety from whom, from what?” For many clinicians and survivors, alike, the need for safety after trauma is self-explanatory.
Clinicians, like family members, friends, and pertinent officials after traumatizing disasters, often give good safety advice to help keep victims safe from remembering and reexperiencing the trauma, and from being exposed to potentially dangerous environmental situations. And these reality-based instructions are often very clear, prudent, helpful, and consensually understood. The general impression conveyed is that what victims are to be kept safe from is some unseen, amorphous but powerful physical presence. The presence is ill-defined, but dreadful, lurking out there somewhere in the socioenvironmental sphere. But, more often than not, the true object of fear is the internalized multifarious demonic presences of the abuser.
This pernicious presence comes from inside not from outside the survivor. And only a treatment environment that is capacious in holding and containing primordial fears and anxieties will suffice. In essence, it is the person of the therapist that truly provides safety for the internally endangered victim. Thus, what therapists keep survivors safe from are the internalized presences of the abuser (or perpetrator), or whom they have become as a consequence of exposure to seduction, cruelty, and the demonic madness of sexual victimizing.119 Because the danger of which we speak here is within (not related to any particular external threat), Winnicott’s formulation on the therapeutic holding attitude, is essential here.
Posted by tabitha on December 5, 2003, at 2:48:55
In reply to Re: But you guuuuuuyyyyysss!!! :((((, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 20:16:20
Oh. Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were just a little wistful for the old style, but embracing the new.
Tell that therapist you're not ready to be kicked out of the nest just yet. Seems like you've done well at training him in the past. I have faith in your ability to mold him into an almost-perfect therapist. Or at least a good enough one.
Posted by fallsfall on December 5, 2003, at 6:09:28
In reply to Re: But you guuuuuuyyyyysss!!! :((((, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 20:16:20
Change is always hard and scary. He will help you through this - you aren't on your own. Try to tolerate the pain - try to see it as "discomfort" - try to know that you can hold a LITTLE of the pain yourself, and he can hold the rest. Try to move, *Just a little*. It's not all or nothing (who am I to talk?). He won't let you fall, but you can balance for just a second on your own. He's still there.
You *do* want this challenge stuff - just slowly. Persevere.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 5, 2003, at 6:40:17
In reply to Re: I wish I was an artist, posted by tabitha on December 4, 2003, at 19:07:52
'you can choose to be happy'
<<<Ugh!!! My therapist's favorite phrase now is "Create your own happiness." I swear, if he says it to me one more time, I'm going to kick him in the face! Sorry, I just had to comment on the annoying things therapists say!
Posted by jane d on December 5, 2003, at 11:00:27
In reply to Re: Thank you. :) » Poet, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2003, at 21:34:21
> I was just really really frustrated at trying to convey what I meant to him without making him feel like I was accusing him or complaining. I believe in sticking to my agreements. I just regret making this one at the moment.
>
> Oh well. It'll work out eventually. At least, it had better work out eventually.Dinah,
Isn't "as long as it works out as well for me as we expect it to" an unspoken part of all agreements with therapists? It's not supposed to be a win-lose business deal where, if you guess right, you gain and he loses, and if you guess wrong, you lose and deal with it stoically, is it?
Jane
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2003, at 11:58:51
In reply to Re: Keeping Agreements » Dinah, posted by jane d on December 5, 2003, at 11:00:27
Well, his attitude is to cross his arms (metaphorically) and tell me it's up to me if I want to grow (then added a bit more kindly or how fast I grow). And that I should take some time to think about that. So what I really want to do is cancel my remaining sessions so I'll have time to "think".
Right now I don't like him very much.
Posted by tabitha on December 5, 2003, at 15:51:33
In reply to Re: I wish I was an artist » tabitha, posted by Karen_kay on December 5, 2003, at 6:40:17
That pollyanna stuff doesn't do much for me either. I usually can't be prodded into a better mood or a positive attitude. Sometimes I almost pity therapists. They really have their work cut out for them.
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2003, at 15:58:16
In reply to Re: Keeping Agreements » jane d, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2003, at 11:58:51
We're going back to the way things were (if possible). He says he's not mad, just sad. Sad I can live with. He thinks maybe I'm just not ready. I'm sorry to disappoint him, but I feel an enormous load has been lifted off my shoulders.
Posted by Poet on December 5, 2003, at 16:18:02
In reply to Re: Ok, we worked it out, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2003, at 15:58:16
Dinah,
Don't let him being sad, make you sad. Going back as close as possible to the way things were is what you need right now. He should understand that you tried something new, and it didn't work out.
I don't think therapists ever admit when they're mad. I've probably given mine dozens of reasons to scream at me and she just sits there with the silent head nod. Maybe they learn anger management in school. When you get your course schedule, check to see if they have a class.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2003, at 16:38:04
In reply to Re: Ok, we worked it out » Dinah, posted by Poet on December 5, 2003, at 16:18:02
Ah Hah! I get mine to admit when he's mad. He used "frustrated" for years, but I finally got him to drop the euphemism. :)
He was mad today. Maybe not about the end result, but definitely during the discussion. But come to think of it, I was mad too. And I was telling him I was mad, after laying lots of groundwork making sure it was safe to be mad. I asked him what would happen and I did stormed out of the room, or yelled. He said that I needed to be responsible in my anger. I answered that what would happen if I wasn't responsible. I was afraid to be angry if I thought it would be the end of the world (i.e. termination). He said it wouldn't be the end of the world unless I killed him, which he had no fear that I would do, or myself. Short of that it wouldn't be the end of the world.
While I was at it, I added a few other irritations that had built up.
But it turned out ok in the end. If not great, at least ok. Maybe the really important thing for me was to know that I could go back. Maybe if we ever try again, I'll just make sure at the outset that we can go back...
Posted by fallsfall on December 5, 2003, at 19:43:15
In reply to Re: Ok, we worked it out » Poet, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2003, at 16:38:04
I'm glad that it is all worked out. You did sound a little unsettled. Now things will be more comfortable for you.
And I think you probably both learned something - perhaps he learned how important safety and stability is to you, and maybe you learned that he can challenge without you dying. I think that both are important lessons.
So you have forever therapy.
Mine won't agree to forever therapy - but he said 20 years would be OK. That's close enough for me, for now.
Posted by Dinah on December 7, 2003, at 10:33:58
In reply to Forever Therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on December 5, 2003, at 19:43:15
Twenty years is pretty close to forever. :) Or will be until fifteen years from now. Then you can renegotiate. :)
This is the end of the thread.
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