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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 80 to 104 of 136. Go back in thread:
Posted by ElaineM on January 18, 2007, at 20:35:26
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS), posted by sunnydays on January 18, 2007, at 18:20:55
Posted by 10derHeart on January 18, 2007, at 21:55:03
In reply to how do you get a link to post? (nm), posted by ElaineM on January 18, 2007, at 20:35:26
Hmm, not sure I understand your question, Elaine, but maybe I do....
If I want to put a link to another Babble post (or any web page, for that matter) in my post, I first go that that post (or web page) and open it. Its "address" (URL) will then appear in the bar at the top of your browser. Copy and paste (using 'right click', for PC users) this address into your post, and it will be 'clickable.'
If that's not what you meant, I'm sorry. I can try again, just let me know :-)
Posted by 10derHeart on January 18, 2007, at 22:15:18
In reply to Re: Just never mind any of this, it doesn't matter » Happyflower, posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 20:30:32
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 21:11:19
In reply to My thoughts exactly, Honore (nm) » Honore, posted by 10derHeart on January 18, 2007, at 22:15:18
okay, I didn't read the entire thread in full detail. my attentions wavers.
Here's what I think about this. Someone is communicating with me in a way that hurts me. I ask them not to communicate with me. Do Not Post/Do Not Babblemail etc. I make it known that I am ignoring them in Babble-chat, should the situation arise that we are both chatting at the same time.
That person is hurt that I ask them not to communicate with me. They don't understand it, and so they try to find more information (including initiating communication with me).
Whose hurt is more important? Who does Dr. Bob choose to protect?
Me? or that person?
strictly hypothetical. no names. no incidents. just this scenario.
*****************
next question:I have requested that someone does not communicate to me (DNP, DNbabblemail, DNchat.)
Now that person writes a post about me. Uses my name, or leaves it open for easy inference. That person writes that my actions have hurt him. That person writes that my actions have hurt him so badly that he is feeling like he wants to hurt himself. That person writes that when I don't communicate with him, he wants to die. That person writes that when I don't communicate with him, he feels misunderstood, and feels like slitting his wrists.
Who is protected? Me, or Him? and WHY?
*******
The situation escalates.
I write that I feel that he has put me in a situation that makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. I write that he has threatened suicide unless I respond to him in some way. I write that I am triggered by suicidal people, especially suicidal people who make me feel responsible for their pain.
He writes that he cannot imagine living in a world in which I will not communicate with him. He writes that he must be able to speak with me to understand how he has hurt me. He writes that if he cannot speak with me and find out how to feel better, that he will continue to feel suicidal.
Yet, I will not speak to him. I speak about him in vague terms.
He speaks about me in less than vague terms.
******
Who will get protection?
Is it an issue of favoritism? Who hurts more gets more protection?
-Ll
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2007, at 21:49:35
In reply to my thoughts **suicide triggers**, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 21:11:19
Lurpsie I think you need to become a lawyer. Love Phillipa
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 20, 2007, at 2:19:15
In reply to my thoughts **suicide triggers**, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 21:11:19
Awesome post LNoodle. I would like the result to be a block for the one who didn't leave you alone in any and all ways..That's how I feel...and should they not have then I would myself have like them to be blocked *each time* they did it if they did it again. I would think that any other way could show favoritism thats just what I feel and think on your post below...
> okay, I didn't read the entire thread in full detail. my attentions wavers.
>
> Here's what I think about this. Someone is communicating with me in a way that hurts me. I ask them not to communicate with me. Do Not Post/Do Not Babblemail etc. I make it known that I am ignoring them in Babble-chat, should the situation arise that we are both chatting at the same time.
>
> That person is hurt that I ask them not to communicate with me. They don't understand it, and so they try to find more information (including initiating communication with me).
>
> Whose hurt is more important? Who does Dr. Bob choose to protect?
>
> Me? or that person?
>
> strictly hypothetical. no names. no incidents. just this scenario.
>
> *****************
> next question:
>
> I have requested that someone does not communicate to me (DNP, DNbabblemail, DNchat.)
>
> Now that person writes a post about me. Uses my name, or leaves it open for easy inference. That person writes that my actions have hurt him. That person writes that my actions have hurt him so badly that he is feeling like he wants to hurt himself. That person writes that when I don't communicate with him, he wants to die. That person writes that when I don't communicate with him, he feels misunderstood, and feels like slitting his wrists.
>
> Who is protected? Me, or Him? and WHY?
>
> *******
>
> The situation escalates.
>
> I write that I feel that he has put me in a situation that makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. I write that he has threatened suicide unless I respond to him in some way. I write that I am triggered by suicidal people, especially suicidal people who make me feel responsible for their pain.
>
> He writes that he cannot imagine living in a world in which I will not communicate with him. He writes that he must be able to speak with me to understand how he has hurt me. He writes that if he cannot speak with me and find out how to feel better, that he will continue to feel suicidal.
>
> Yet, I will not speak to him. I speak about him in vague terms.
>
> He speaks about me in less than vague terms.
>
> ******
>
> Who will get protection?
>
> Is it an issue of favoritism? Who hurts more gets more protection?
>
> -Ll
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 20, 2007, at 2:30:32
In reply to Re: Not trying to upset you, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:45:12
I do not think you have addressed this and if you did I am sorry I didn't see it. Would/could you have overuled the decison made while you were gone? I wonder how you would have decided has you seen the posts first? I wish HF had not been blocked while trying to protect herself. Thank you ahead
> This is why I think it would be best for Dr. Bob to address this as not to upset any deputies or posters.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 9:25:29
In reply to my thoughts **suicide triggers**, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 21:11:19
> fear. fear that threats will be carried out.
>
> its making babble a rather unpleasant place.
>
> NikkiT2> Could you or others in the mod team feel youre being held hostage because if you block them they may do something?
>
> Fallen4MyT> > is favoritism a concern?
>
> Yes
>
> GlydinFeeling afraid could certainly make it less pleasant here, I understand that. Including feeling afraid of us not keeping it safe. Either because our hands are tied or because we have favorites. Is that the feeling?
> Could these posters who post this kind of thing just be allowed to say..I feel LIKE...and then state they feel like doing things to themselves LEAVING OUT other posters, posters name and behavior or lack of it?
>
> Fallen4MyTSure, I think that's a good idea.
--
> I didn't know the exact rules for reporting about a problem
They were explained in that thread just the day before:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061202/msgs/716550.html
> I see it also as a problem where a deputy does nothing or delays doing something
It's not ideal, that's true.
> I feel my complaint was ignored ... All my other means of reporting was ignored ... I felt ignored when reporting these behaviors ... I did report it and felt I was ignored ... the real reason for my posting was ignored once again.
I'm sorry you felt ignored, that can hurt. And it already happens enough in "real" life, no one needs it here, too. But that wasn't our intent.
> I have tried a request offically of "Do Not Post" but now with the new rules, it is void from what I understand.
>
> HappyflowerYou tried here? It's more complicated now, that's true. A request is a valid as a request. Did I say I wasn't going to enforce it?
--
> Someone is communicating with me in a way that hurts me. I ask them not to communicate with me.
>
> That person is hurt that I ask them not to communicate with me.If you feel harassed, then you can, as a last resort, ask them not to post to you anymore.
> I have requested that someone does not communicate to me
>
> Now that person writes a post about me. ... That person writes that my actions have hurt him.Posting about you isn't considered posting *to* you. But saying you had hurt him probably would be considered something that could lead you to feel accused.
> The situation escalates.
>
> I write that I feel that he has put me in a situation that makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.
>
> He writes that if he cannot speak with me and find out how to feel better, that he will continue to feel suicidal.Saying he had made you feel uncomfortable probably would be considered something that could lead him to feel accused. Saying you would make him feel suicidal probably would be considered something that could lead you to feel pressured.
> Who will get protection?
>
> Is it an issue of favoritism? Who hurts more gets more protection?
>
> -LlIt's not an issue of whose hurt is worse. How could that be determined, anyway? The issue is what kinds of posts are or aren't OK.
Bob
Posted by wishingstar on January 20, 2007, at 9:37:55
In reply to Re: feeling afraid and ignored, posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 9:25:29
>>Saying he had made you feel uncomfortable probably would be considered something that could lead him to feel accused. Saying you would make him feel suicidal probably would be considered something that could lead you to feel pressured.
>>I just want to say that I personally would feel very accused and put down if I were in the position of the second poster there (the one who you wrote would feel pressured). More so than if someone told me I made them feel uncomfortable even. If you "make" someone suicidal (in their opinion), isnt that the ultimate accusation? You did something SO bad and make me feel SO terrible (and uncomfortable) that I have to kill myself to deal with it. It's an accusation just like any other, the stakes are just higher (ie, the persons life).
I think the issue may be that some, like you Dr Bob and maybe for some others too, would not perceive it as an accusation and would be able to seperate the other posters issues and your personal responsibility in the situation. But I'd argue that many of us on here dont perceive "I think xxx political figure is terrible" as uncivil or offense. However, I understand that there may be people who, for whatever reason, are very sensitive to that and the rule is to protect them. Of course not every person is going to fall under every rule - not all the protections on this site would be nexessary for it to feel safe for every member. That's understandable. But I'd encourage you to take the feelings of those who WOULD feel accused into account, rather than saying "well to ME, it's not an accusation." Even if it doesnt make sense to you, some people feel badly about this.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 12:25:32
In reply to Re: feeling afraid and ignored » Dr. Bob, posted by wishingstar on January 20, 2007, at 9:37:55
> > > X writes that she feels that Y has put her in a situation that makes her feel extremely uncomfortable.
> > >
> > > Y writes that if he cannot speak with X and find out how to feel better, that he will continue to feel suicidal.
> >
> > X saying Y had made her feel uncomfortable probably would be considered something that could lead Y to feel accused. Y saying X would make him feel suicidal probably would be considered something that could lead X to feel pressured.
>
> I just want to say that I personally would feel very accused and put down if I were in the position of the second poster there (the one who you wrote would feel pressured).If you were X, you mean? It's not OK for Y to pressure X, either. Like it's not OK for Y to accuse or put down X. People feeling pressured is a problem, too, not just people feeling accused.
Bob
Posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 15:21:45
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes » Deneb, posted by Poet on January 18, 2007, at 12:28:54
>>>>>>Can someone point out to me the words that are provocative and distressing? I want the actual quotes. I do believe I was civil. Even if they really are provocative and distressing, it's not uncivil to be provocative or distressing.
> Deneb, I felt that in this post you weren't being provocative, but what you said was distressing. What you wrote isn't uncivil, but I perceived it as threatening. If the link doesn't work it's on the eating board.
>
> Poet
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/eating/20061124/msgs/706825.html
>
Ditto Poet's post. I won't comment on the provocativeness of communication patterns because there would be no way for anyone to "win" that debate, cause it's a personal opinion. But I will say that I percievied this as quite threatening as well.http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/eating/20061124/msgs/706857.html
"I still sort of want to die. If people don't start liking me again I think I want to die. If people don't believe that I will do it, I'll only have to prove them wrong."
[the "if" with the stated "consequence"]
thanks, El
Posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 16:05:41
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes, posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 15:21:45
> Ditto Poet's post. I won't comment on the provocativeness of communication patterns because there would be no way for anyone to "win" that debate, cause it's a personal opinion. But I will say that I percievied this as quite threatening as well.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/eating/20061124/msgs/706857.html
>
> "I still sort of want to die. If people don't start liking me again I think I want to die. If people don't believe that I will do it, I'll only have to prove them wrong."
>
> [the "if" with the stated "consequence"]
>
> thanks, ElI'm sorry. What do you want from me? Do you want me to be blocked?
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 16:10:29
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes » ElaineM, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 16:05:41
I made a bad mistake. I'm sorry. I don't know what I can do to make it right. I'll try very very hard not to do it again.
What do people want from me?
Next time I feel that badly again I won't post about it. Is that what you want?
Deneb*
Posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2007, at 16:23:00
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 16:10:29
((((((Deneb))))))
I think you're doing the best you can. I don't think anyone wants you not to post when you are feeling badly. Just wanted to let you know I can see how hard you're trying and I know you're doing the best you can.
sunnydays
Posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 16:31:08
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes » Deneb, posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2007, at 16:23:00
> ((((((Deneb))))))
>
> I think you're doing the best you can. I don't think anyone wants you not to post when you are feeling badly. Just wanted to let you know I can see how hard you're trying and I know you're doing the best you can.
>
> sunnydaysThanks Sunnydays. I know what I did then was uncivil now. I'll try really really hard never to do that again. Next time I can write about my bad feelings, but I have to make extra sure to not say it was because of what someone did or didn't do. That would fall under the "pressuring others" and accusing others part of the rules.
Deneb*
Posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 17:12:15
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes » ElaineM, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 16:05:41
I appreciate that you're sorry. Do I want you to be blocked? Considering the posts, I would've expected a PBC the first time, perhaps a Block the second -- at least perhaps an explanation how those posts were deemed "civil". It's after-the-fact now, so I'd mostly want it to not happen again, or multiple times -- that's all. I just want everyone held accountable. I just want "pressuring", especially concerning suicide, to be taken very seriously. Do I want anything more than that? No. Do I think you're horrible or whatever? No.
thanks, El
Posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:15:00
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 16:31:08
** Deneb said "I know what I did then was uncivil now. I'll try really really hard never to do that again. Next time I can write about my bad feelings, but I have to make extra sure to not say it was because of what someone did or didn't do. That would fall under the "pressuring others" and accusing others part of the rules." **
deneb, people don't want you to tell them that you will kill yourself if they don't do a certain thing the way you want it done. this world isn't built in a way where we can make demands that are threatening or provocative to others. because "nice matters"......
it appears to me from what you said that you realize that now and i look forward to your moving on and not repeating the patterns that you found yourself in previously. it would bring an awfully lot of peace here on Babble if you could do that. thank you so much, pat
Posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 17:58:52
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes » Deneb, posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:15:00
Do people think I'm a bad person for writing those things? Am I a bad person because I feel those things?
Am I a bad person when I get upset after people do certain things and I'm so upset I think bad things like that?
For example: Was I a bad person for wanting to kill myself after getting blocked?
What about if I fail at killing myself and end up in the hospital? Is it OK to tell people at the hospital that I tried to kill myself because I was upset over being blocked? Or should I lie because it's manipulative to say those things?
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 18:54:49
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes *trigger, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 17:58:52
I don't think it was a good idea to post it now. I'm sorry. I'm starting to figure it out.
Deneb*
Posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 18:57:50
In reply to Sorry about the above post, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 18:54:49
deneb, you completely misunderstood my post. pat
Posted by tofuemmy on January 20, 2007, at 19:14:50
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes *trigger, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 17:58:52
>>For example: Was I a bad person for wanting to kill myself after getting blocked?
>>What about if I fail at killing myself and end up in the hospital? Is it OK to tell people at the hospital that I tried to kill myself because I was upset over being blocked? Or should I lie because it's manipulative to say those things?
See, Bob CAN'T block Deneb because she has made it clear that if he does, she will attempt suicide. Will she live or die this time?
And, then what happens to Bob and Babble? Could he be sued by her parents? Would he have to shut down Babble? Who knows.
Deneb...your impulsivity is scarey.
em
Posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 19:21:35
In reply to Sorry about the above post, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 18:54:49
>>>Do people think I'm a bad person for writing those things? Am I a bad person because I feel those things?
THe short answer....No. (not that anyone would be able to answer Yes to that question anyways without being uncivil - but that's irrelevant). Do you?
>>>>>>Am I a bad person when I get upset after people do certain things and I'm so upset I think bad things like that?
Nope. We can *think* and *feel* whatever we want. However, we can't *say* everything we want. At least not without consequences. There's interpersonal consequences (both good and bad) to everything, IRL and through the internet. On babble, there's also consequences to being uncivil.
As a reverse, am *I* a bad person for being upset when "people do certain things"? Thinking and feeling bad things are one thing, pressuring or blaming are another.>>>>>For example: Was I a bad person for wanting to kill myself after getting blocked?
Nope. If I had to put myself in that situation (if I got blocked), I'd have to really push myself to not just see the block/blocker as "making" me self-harm -- because blocks don't just occur for no reason. I would have to try and consider my own part in bringing about the block, and assume responsibity for my part (even if it's illness), and own my own feelings and behaviours. There's more choices before suicide attempts.
>>>>>>Is it OK to tell people at the hospital that I tried to kill myself because I was upset over being blocked? Or should I lie because it's manipulative to say those things?
First, you know that no one here would want you to go through that, right. But, yep, IRL you can always say what your perspective is. I don't see how it could be manipulative. Unless hypothetically (and I'm gonna get creative here) you fabricated a suicide attempt, and blamed the "meanness" of Babble hoping that someone would look into having the site shut down, or something like that - I guess.
You don't need to apoligize for asking those questions. It's always better to ask before reacting. Deneb, you should re-read your really insightful post above (the one to sunnydays). Maybe it will help re-clarify the thing that people were upset over in this thread. OR what if you also brought these questions into a session and did a back and forth with your pdoc? You may find it useful in your commitment to learning how to not let the same thing happen ever again. You said you're used to talking to her quite a bit now, right? [kudos on that by the way :)] What do you think?
blove El
Posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2007, at 19:34:54
In reply to Re: Sorry about the above post » Deneb, posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 19:21:35
Deneb you could role play with your therapist or pdoc. Love Phillipa
Posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 20:07:05
In reply to Wow.... *trigger*, posted by tofuemmy on January 20, 2007, at 19:14:50
I have no doubt that Bob or one of the deputies will block me if I'm uncivil.
I'm not saying I will feel suicidal when I am blocked. I don't think I will be. I'm taking about the past.
Deneb*
Posted by tofuemmy on January 20, 2007, at 20:15:52
In reply to Re: Wow.... *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 20:07:05
>>What about if I fail at killing myself and end up in the hospital?
This is not past tense.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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