![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2011, at 6:15:13
just curious
thinking about carb metabolism and maoi
might go well with bupropion since it is proconvulsant
but wouldn't be the first anticonvulsant to have AD effects. so may be extra useful for bipolar
http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v15/n1/abs/oby2007516a.html
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2804%2901006-6/abstract(PS make coconut a significant fat source if you do)
-d/rMAOI
Posted by Phillipa on March 25, 2011, at 13:26:20
In reply to has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2011, at 6:15:13
dr all I know is years ago before any problems I was on the Atkins 0 carb diet and one night when out felt really out of it so ate some carbs and was fine. I also came out diabetic on 5 hour glucose test at the time was told to go home eat lots of carbs and retest and did and came back low blood sugar. Phillipa
Posted by sigismund on March 25, 2011, at 14:06:03
In reply to has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2011, at 6:15:13
I was thinking of the epilepsy thing too.
We use coconut oil. What's it with that? MCT? What's so good about them?
Posted by linkadge on March 25, 2011, at 14:07:31
In reply to has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2011, at 6:15:13
I have tried it. A high fat diet (mainly good fats) and few carbs seems to help my depression, but not sure if its due to ketosis or something else.
Linkadge
Posted by sigismund on March 25, 2011, at 14:17:16
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by linkadge on March 25, 2011, at 14:07:31
I started taking p5p with protein shake and felt better.
i dunno about ketosis
Posted by morgan miller on March 25, 2011, at 22:00:29
In reply to has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2011, at 6:15:13
I eliminated grains and added sugar from my diet about 8 days ago and I think I am starting to notice the benefits. I am starting to sleep better, have better focus, better mood, less anxiety. The first week or so is usually a bit rough for most people. I was not eating many grains or added sugar anyway so my transition has been fairly easy. I did feel hungover and my knees and feet really hurt my 2nd and 3rd days but that passed quickly. I am eating a very well balanced diet, lots of veggies, apples, blueberries, mostly red meat, organic sprouted and raw almonds, organic raw brazil nuts, pistachios, and Erivan yogurt.
I am starting to believe that many people suffering from mental illness could benefit from a paloe/primal diet.
Everyone should check out Mark'sdailyapple.com.
Posted by morgan miller on March 25, 2011, at 22:18:08
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by sigismund on March 25, 2011, at 14:06:03
> I was thinking of the epilepsy thing too.
>
> We use coconut oil. What's it with that? MCT? What's so good about them?Consuming coconut oil creates ketone bodies that are a good source of energy for the brain and can replace sugar as an energy source.
Posted by linkadge on March 26, 2011, at 13:49:03
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by morgan miller on March 25, 2011, at 22:18:08
>Consuming coconut oil creates ketone bodies that >are a good source of energy for the brain and >can replace sugar as an energy source.
Well, I don't know if this is maintream science yet. Also, I heard coconut oil isn't all that great for you.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on March 26, 2011, at 23:58:32
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2011, at 13:49:03
> >Consuming coconut oil creates ketone bodies that >are a good source of energy for the brain and >can replace sugar as an energy source.
>
> Well, I don't know if this is maintream science yet. Also, I heard coconut oil isn't all that great for you.
>
> Linkadge
>The studies on coconut oil saying that it contributes to healh issues have been picked apart for their flaws. Medium chain triglycerides are shorter chain fatty acids that do not have to go through the same conversion process that other saturated fats do. This means the fats are utilized fairly quickly as an energy source. I know several people that consume lots of coconut oil, and plenty of other sources of saturated fats, and have not gained any weight because of it.
It will be studied more in the coming years. MCT's and saturated fats from other foods will eventually be praised for their health benefits. We've likely gotten it all wrong over the last several decades.
I think everyone should check out Mark's Daily Apple. There are many studies and analysis of studies presented and reviewed on Mark's Sisson's site with regards to nutrition.
Another good site to go to is on by Denise Minger. I can't remember the name of the site off hand, but if you google her name I'm sure the site will come up.
Morgan
Posted by 49er on March 27, 2011, at 6:08:03
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by morgan miller on March 25, 2011, at 22:00:29
> I eliminated grains and added sugar from my diet about 8 days ago and I think I am starting to notice the benefits. I am starting to sleep better, have better focus, better mood, less anxiety. The first week or so is usually a bit rough for most people. I was not eating many grains or added sugar anyway so my transition has been fairly easy. I did feel hungover and my knees and feet really hurt my 2nd and 3rd days but that passed quickly. I am eating a very well balanced diet, lots of veggies, apples, blueberries, mostly red meat, organic sprouted and raw almonds, organic raw brazil nuts, pistachios, and Erivan yogurt.
>
> I am starting to believe that many people suffering from mental illness could benefit from a paloe/primal diet.
>
> Everyone should check out Mark'sdailyapple.com.
>
>
Hi Morgan,I have been looking into eating this way but slipped yesterday due to lack of sleep.
So I was feeling discouraged and wondering if this really worked.
Seeing your post has provided me with hope that I can do this.
I am familiar with the Mark's Daily Apple site. Did you read his book and if so, is it worth reading in your opinion?
Any other paleo books you recommend? They all sound good so it is hard to decide what to buy.
49er
Posted by morgan miller on March 27, 2011, at 23:25:45
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants » morgan miller, posted by 49er on March 27, 2011, at 6:08:03
Hey 49er, I actually have not read his book, just a lot of research he and others have reviewed and presented. For some reason I like his approach as it is not too too strict. He also appears to have a fairly open mind. So I would think that his book is worth the read. I will get around to reading it soon here hopefully.
I think I am still adjusting some, it's only been over a week, not quite two yet. So far I really do believe I am feeling better because of this diet. I was experiencing some pretty bad food comas at times, which is very very rare for me. Now, I never experience food coma, even when I eat much, something I'm still working on. I wonder if some of the meds I've been on, especially Zyprexa, have had a permanent negative impact on insulin sensitivity. Whatever the reasons are for my feeling so awful this year, I'm feeling better now and that's all that matters.
You can do this niner, you just have to wake up one day and do it, it's that simple. Meat(I find red meat more satiating and crave it more), good nuts(peanuts are bad and not even a nut), berries(blueberries are best), other low glycemic fruits(apples/pears), small amounts of bananas/oranges/grapfruit, loads of veggies, eggs(best when the yolk is uncooked and the white is cooked-I can explain later), and some good dairy(I love Erivan yogurt-high in acidophilus probiotic, enzymes, CLA fatty acid, and of course calcium). Oh, forgot the fermented veggies like saurkraut. This is my paleo/primal-like diet, yours may be different. I like this diet because I still get to enjoy all my favorite foods and it provides probiotics and enzymes-Erivan and saurkraut(you want organic unpasteurized fermented cabbage if you can get it). Also, make sure not to consume anything with added sugar-canned beets/balsamic vinegar.
Morgan
Posted by 49er on March 28, 2011, at 2:23:24
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by morgan miller on March 27, 2011, at 23:25:45
Hi Morgan,
"Hey 49er, I actually have not read his book, just a lot of research he and others have reviewed and presented. For some reason I like his approach as it is not too too strict. He also appears to have a fairly open mind. So I would think that his book is worth the read. I will get around to reading it soon here hopefully."
That is good he isn't too strict and has a fairly open mind. That works alot better for me:)
>
"I think I am still adjusting some, it's only been over a week, not quite two yet. So far I really do believe I am feeling better because of this diet. I was experiencing some pretty bad food comas at times, which is very very rare for me. Now, I never experience food coma, even when I eat much, something I'm still working on. I wonder if some of the meds I've been on, especially Zyprexa, have had a permanent negative impact on insulin sensitivity. Whatever the reasons are for my feeling so awful this year, I'm feeling better now and that's all that matters."Unfortunately, I do believe that Zyprexa has that permanent effect on insulin sensitivity. That is great you are feeling so much better.
This diet must really be super if it is helping you overcome the drug's effects.
"You can do this niner, you just have to wake up one day and do it, it's that simple. Meat(I find red meat more satiating and crave it more), good nuts(peanuts are bad and not even a nut), berries(blueberries are best), other low glycemic fruits(apples/pears), small amounts of bananas/oranges/grapfruit, loads of veggies, eggs(best when the yolk is uncooked and the white is cooked-I can explain later), and some good dairy(I love Erivan yogurt-high in acidophilus probiotic, enzymes, CLA fatty acid, and of course calcium). Oh, forgot the fermented veggies like saurkraut. This is my paleo/primal-like diet, yours may be different. I like this diet because I still get to enjoy all my favorite foods and it provides probiotics and enzymes-Erivan and saurkraut(you want organic unpasteurized fermented cabbage if you can get it). Also, make sure not to consume anything with added sugar-canned beets/balsamic vinegar."
Well, I started a new job so it might be tough to try and completely implement it for now. But even doing it at 50 to 60% is better than nothing.
Perhaps, come up with a transition plan so I can better make the adjustment.
Hope your good luck continues.
49er
Posted by morgan miller on March 29, 2011, at 1:10:48
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants » morgan miller, posted by 49er on March 28, 2011, at 2:23:24
>Well, I started a new job so it might be tough to try and completely implement it for now. But even doing it at 50 to 60% is better than nothing.
Shoot for 70 to 80 percent for now. Please trust me on this, it is not that difficult. Consider what you have done already, this should be nothing compared to that. I would suggest at one point going 100 percent for at least a month just to see how it makes you feel.
To make things clear, I don't take Zyprexa anymore, it's been about 10 months. I do fear it may have had some long term effect though. I also did not work out for two years and I'm now 38, so I am going through changes : (
You can do it, I know you can.
Thanks for the positive words.
Morgan
Posted by 49er on March 29, 2011, at 3:02:43
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by morgan miller on March 29, 2011, at 1:10:48
> >Well, I started a new job so it might be tough to try and completely implement it for now. But even doing it at 50 to 60% is better than nothing.
>
> Shoot for 70 to 80 percent for now. Please trust me on this, it is not that difficult. Consider what you have done already, this should be nothing compared to that. I would suggest at one point going 100 percent for at least a month just to see how it makes you feel.
>
> To make things clear, I don't take Zyprexa anymore, it's been about 10 months. I do fear it may have had some long term effect though. I also did not work out for two years and I'm now 38, so I am going through changes : (
>
> You can do it, I know you can.
>
> Thanks for the positive words.
>
> MorganMorgan,
I know you mean well.
But please don't say something shouldn't be difficult when you don't know my circumstances. Frankly, the considering the extreme stress I am under, I think I am doing a heck of a job to be achieving what I am doing.
49er
Posted by morgan miller on March 29, 2011, at 21:43:41
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by 49er on March 29, 2011, at 3:02:43
> > >Well, I started a new job so it might be tough to try and completely implement it for now. But even doing it at 50 to 60% is better than nothing.
> >
> > Shoot for 70 to 80 percent for now. Please trust me on this, it is not that difficult. Consider what you have done already, this should be nothing compared to that. I would suggest at one point going 100 percent for at least a month just to see how it makes you feel.
> >
> > To make things clear, I don't take Zyprexa anymore, it's been about 10 months. I do fear it may have had some long term effect though. I also did not work out for two years and I'm now 38, so I am going through changes : (
> >
> > You can do it, I know you can.
> >
> > Thanks for the positive words.
> >
> > Morgan
>
> Morgan,
>
> I know you mean well.
>
> But please don't say something shouldn't be difficult when you don't know my circumstances. Frankly, the considering the extreme stress I am under, I think I am doing a heck of a job to be achieving what I am doing.
>
> 49erI do too, I was just trying to give a little encouragement. It was not meant to be taken personally.
I would suggest going totally supplement or medication free(are you supplement free? would you use something like lithium orotate?) is almost impossible to maintain over a lifetime for many. And, proper medication treatment can help one avoid feeling too stressed and ward of some of the potential damage stress can do to the brain.
Now you're probably going to take what I just said personally, though I really hope you do not and I did not say what I said because I think you will. Just my humble opinion.
Take care and good luck,
Morgan
Posted by 49er on March 30, 2011, at 1:33:28
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by morgan miller on March 29, 2011, at 21:43:41
Hi Morgan,
<< I do too, I was just trying to give a little encouragement. It was not meant to be taken personally.>>
That is why I said I know you meant well:)
Uh, when you say something shouldn't be difficult, isn't that making things personal?
"I would suggest going totally supplement or medication free(are you supplement free? would you use something like lithium orotate?) is almost impossible to maintain over a lifetime for many. And, proper medication treatment can help one avoid feeling too stressed and ward of some of the potential damage stress can do to the brain. "
Uh, I went off of meds because they caused horrific side effects. They were were causing alot more potential damage to my brain than any stress could cause.
I only take a multivitamin and fish oil which I am not going to give up taking.
Having stress from starting a new job is quite normal. It is a good way for me to practice the coping skills I have learned.
If I need to eat more carbohydrates than what the Ketegenic diet allows, so be it as long as I don't eat junk food and stick to healthy foods. And actually, on my new job, because it requires alot of activity, I actually felt better eating more carbs.
" Now you're probably going to take what I just said personally, though I really hope you do not and I did not say what I said because I think you will. Just my humble opinion."
Hmm, if you know I am going to take something personally you say, why did you write what you did? I am not asking to be argumentative but I am just curious.
Why not phrase things in an attempt to clarify where I am coming from?
Why not just simply say something like that you hope that when I am comfortable with my job, I will feel able to apply more of the principles of the diet?
49er
Posted by morgan miller on March 30, 2011, at 12:49:16
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants » morgan miller, posted by 49er on March 30, 2011, at 1:33:28
Wrote a fairly long response, one last night that I forgot to confirm, and a longer one today that I just forgot to confirm, ugh. I'm going to get back to this as I did have some things to say. I agree I should have worded and approached my earlier responses in a better way : ) Hope your adjusting well to the new job.
Morgan
Posted by desolationrower on March 30, 2011, at 20:37:08
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2011, at 13:49:03
I split posts, it was getting long.
>Consuming coconut oil creates ketone bodies that >are a good source of energy for the brain and >can replace sugar as an energy source.
>Well, I don't know if this is maintream science yet. Also, I heard coconut oil isn't all that great for you.
Mainstream science, but not mainstream medicine. saturated fat increases & (but enlarges) ldl particles, but increases hdl more (hdl size changes are confusing, though). Carbs increase small ldl & triglycerides. The saturated fats in coconut are generally better than that in milkfat. I would note that there is a separate effect of unsaturate fatty acids: monounsaturate to some extent, and polyunsaturated to a greater extent increase insulin sensitivity. So they can help those with diabetes or pre-diabetes. Its better to avoid polyunsaturated fat and limit carbs and total calories instead. But this is important for studies showing benefit from these. saturated and monounsaturate are also less oxidisable, and oxidised fatty acids & derivatives in ldl are bad.
I was really talking more about ketosis specifically, but these issues do have a lot of overlap. I do eat oats, buckwheat, legumes, and potatoes pretty often, and not that much meat, so i'm not exactly doing primal. for both nutrition, price, and ecological reasons. There's no 'health' board anymore so i guess discussion of all of it here is ok. The influence of nutrition on mental health i think would mostly go through inflammation from obesity, excess w-6 (industrial seed oil like corn, soy, cottonseed, as well as animal arachodonic acid), and insufficient fermentable fiber (veg, fruit, grain bran, or nut), insufficient zinc & magnesium. maybe less trace lithium in refined foods. vitamin D is sort of here as well. Some constituents of plant food can be good for other reasons, though its unclear the magnitutde, like maois in turmeric, comt inhibitors in green tea, etc. I've posted on some of this before, but i could talk about it more.
-d/r
Posted by desolationrower on March 30, 2011, at 20:38:06
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by morgan miller on March 26, 2011, at 23:58:32
So back on what I posted about before:
as morgan said, coconut has MCT which are more easily converted to ketone bodies. Ketosis can have beneficial effects on the brain, most known in epilepsy (i'm not sure the alzheimer's and mitochondria stuff is related to this. it might be a separate benefit, showing up as mental energy or something, especially if you are older or something). Anyway, just low-carb probably won't have this effect at all, since ketones don't occur in large amounts unless you eat less than about 50grams a day, and keep protein levels to moderate/low levels. But the effects on cortisol would be present.
If it is related to the beneficial effect, then perhaps ketosis should be considered like ssris, as opposed to TCAs and bupropion which tend to be proconvulsive.
This: antiepileptic drugs (seems to be ones used for mood disorders) are potentiated by acetone, the main ketone. others aren't:
***
Pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic interactions between common antiepileptic drugs and acetone, the chief anticonvulsant ketone body elevated in the ketogenic diet in mice
SummaryPurpose:  Acetone is the principal ketone body elevated in the ketogenic diet (KD), with demonstrated robust anticonvulsant properties across a variety of seizure tests and models of epilepsy. Because the majority of patients continue to receive antiepileptic drugs (AEDs) during KD treatment, interactions between acetone and AEDs may have important clinical implications. Therefore, we investigated whether acetone could affect the anticonvulsant activity and pharmacokinetic properties of several AEDs against maximal electroshock (MES)induced seizures in mice.
Methods:  Effects of acetone given in subthreshold doses were tested on the anticonvulsant effects of carbamazepine (CBZ), lamotrigine (LTG), oxcarbazepine (OXC), phenobarbital (PB), phenytoin (PHT), topiramate (TPM) and valproate (VPA) against MES-induced seizures in mice. In addition, acute adverse effects of acetoneAEDs combinations were assessed in the chimney test (motor performance) and passive avoidance task (long-term memory). Pharmacokinetic interactions between acetone and AEDs were also studied in the mouse brain tissue.
Results:  Acetone (5 or 7.5 mmol/kg, intraperitoneally [i.p.]) enhanced the anticonvulsant activity of CBZ, LTG, PB, and VPA against MES-induced seizures; effects of OXC, PHT, and TPM were not changed. Acetone (7.5 mmol/kg) did not enhance the acute adverse-effect profiles of the studied AEDs. Acetone (5 or 7.5 mmol/kg, i.p.) did not affect total brain concentrations of the studied AEDs. In contrast, VPA, CBZ, LTG, OXC, and TPM significantly decreased the concentration of free acetone in the brain; PB and PHT had no effect.
Conclusions:  Acetone enhances the anticonvulsant effects of several AEDs such as VPA, CBZ, LTG, and PB without affecting their pharmacokinetic and side-effect profiles.
***
Long-term Effects of a Very Low-Carbohydrate Diet and a Low-Fat Diet on Mood and Cognitive FunctionBackground Very low-carbohydrate (LC) diets are often used to promote weight loss, but the long-term effects on psychological function remain unknown.
Methods A total of 106 overweight and obese participants (mean [SE] age, 50.0 [0.8] years; mean [SE] body mass index [calculated as weight in kilograms divided by height in meters squared], 33.7 [0.4]) were randomly assigned either to an energy-restricted (approximately 1433-1672 kcal [to convert to kilojoules, multiply by 4.186]), planned isocaloric, very low-carbohydrate, high-fat (LC) diet or to a high-carbohydrate, low-fat (LF) diet for 1 year. Changes in body weight, psychological mood and well-being (Profile of Mood States, Beck Depression Inventory, and Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory scores), and cognitive functioning (working memory and speed of processing) were assessed.
Results By 1 year, the overall mean (SE) weight loss was 13.7 (1.8) kg, with no significant difference between groups (P = .26). Over the course of the study, there were significant time x diet interactions for Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory, Beck Depression Inventory, and Profile of Mood States scores for total mood disturbance, anger-hostility, confusion-bewilderment, and depression-dejection (P < .05) as a result of greater improvements in these psychological mood states for the LF diet compared with the LC diet. Working memory improved by 1 year (P < .001 for time), but speed of processing remained largely unchanged, with no effect of diet composition on either cognitive domain.
Conclusions Over 1 year, there was a favorable effect of an energy-restricted LF diet compared with an isocaloric LC diet on mood state and affect in overweight and obese individuals. Both diets had similar effects on working memory and speed of processing.
***-d/r
Posted by desolationrower on March 30, 2011, at 20:58:16
In reply to has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2011, at 6:15:13
The other thing i was thinking about was just related to cortisol - (study 1): ketosis had greater cortisol, for overweight..
and this (cortisol stuff) is probably less relevent if you are in perfect health.
Trying to remember hpa & sympathetic system interaction with antidepressants plus with glucose system just makes my head hurt. I need one of those full-wall diagrams.
while sris improved things, nris made the typical problems worse, and MAOIs caused hypoglycemia (more of a rebound situation) (see study 2, note that i think this might also have to do with 5ht2 receptors). Which is what i was first thinking about: could MAOI afternoon drowsiness be hypoglycemia related? weight gain seems worse with phenelzine, and there is some evidence the hypoglycemia is related to the structure, instead of/in addition to MAOI effect.
anyway, i guess my main point is that if you are a bit insulin resistant, this might affect AD choice. and maybe has something to do with the melancholic/atypical thing, which might point toward some particular dietary options depending on the type of depression. This study found a difference: worse glucose disposal for atypical, and worse c-peptide.[3] from the abstract i'm not sure they restricted it to unmedicated people tho.
****
STUDY 1:
Dietary macronutrient content alters cortisol metabolism independently of body weight changes in obese men.Abstract
CONTEXT: Dietary macronutrient composition influences cardiometabolic health independently of obesity. Both dietary fat and insulin alter glucocorticoid metabolism in rodents and, acutely, in humans. However, whether longer-term differences in dietary macronutrients affect cortisol metabolism in humans and contribute to the tissue-specific dysregulation of cortisol metabolism in obesity is unknown.
OBJECTIVE: The objective of the study was to test the effects of dietary macronutrients on cortisol metabolism in obese men.
DESIGN: The study consisted of two randomized, crossover studies.
SETTING: The study was conducted at a human nutrition unit.
PARTICIPANTS: Participants included healthy obese men. INTERVENTIONS, OUTCOME MEASURES, AND RESULTS: Seventeen obese men received 4 wk ad libitum high fat-low carbohydrate (HF-LC) (66% fat, 4% carbohydrate) vs. moderate fat-moderate carbohydrate (MF-MC) diets (35% fat, 35% carbohydrate). Six obese men participated in a similar study with isocaloric feeding. Both HF-LC and MF-MC diets induced weight loss. During 9,11,12,12-[(2)H](4)-cortisol infusion, HF-LC but not MF-MC increased 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 (11beta-HSD1) activity (rates of appearance of cortisol and 9,12,12-[(2)H](3)-cortisol) and reduced urinary excretion of 5alpha- and 5beta-reduced [(2)H](4)-cortisol metabolites and [(2)H](4)-cortisol clearance. HF-LC also reduced 24-h urinary 5alpha- and 5beta-reduced endogenous cortisol metabolites but did not alter plasma cortisol or diurnal salivary cortisol rhythm. In sc abdominal adipose tissue, 11beta-HSD1 mRNA and activity were unaffected by diet.
CONCLUSIONS: A low-carbohydrate diet alters cortisol metabolism independently of weight loss. In obese men, this enhances cortisol regeneration by 11beta-HSD1 and reduces cortisol inactivation by A-ring reductases in liver without affecting sc adipose 11beta-HSD1. Alterations in cortisol metabolism may be a consequence of macronutrient dietary content and may mediate effects of diet on metabolic health.
STUDY 2
The effect of antidepressants on glucose homeostasis and insulin sensitivity: synthesis and mechanisms
2006
Objective: To synthesise results from investigations reporting on the effect of antidepressants on glucoseinsulin homeostasis. Method: The authors conducted a MedLine search of all English language articles from 1966 to October 2005 using the keywords: bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, diabetes mellitus, glucose homeostasis, and the name of each antidepressant that has been indicated for major depression in Canada and the US up to October 2005. The search was supplemented with a manual review of relevant references. Both preclinical and clinical investigations were reviewed. Results: Some serotonergic antidepressants (e.g., fluoxetine) reduce hyperglycaemia, normalise glucose homeostasis and increase insulin sensitivity, whereas some noradrenergic antidepressants (e.g., desipramine) exert opposite effects. Dual-mechanism antidepressants (e.g., duloxetine and venlafaxine) do not appear to disrupt glucose homeostatic dynamics, whereas nonselective hydrazine monoamine oxidase inhibitors (e.g., phenelzine) are associated with hypoglycaemia and an increased glucose disposal rate. Conclusion: Some antidepressants exert a clinically significant effect on metabolism relevant to both therapeutic outcome and adverse events.STUDY 3
Disturbed Glucose Disposal in Patients With Major Depression; Application of the Glucose Clamp TechniqueObjective: To assess the whole-body glucose disposal in patients with both typical and atypical depression and to characterize the neuroendocrine responses during a hyper-, eu-, hypoglycemic stepwise clamp experiment in patients with both subtypes of major depression. Depressive disorders and alterations in glucose metabolism are closely associated. The glucose clamp technique is considered to be the "gold standard" for the assessment of whole-body glucose disposal.
Methods: We studied 19 patients with typical major depressive disorder (MDD), 7 patients with atypical major depression, and 30 men and women of a healthy comparator group using a stepwise glucose clamp procedure. Glucose disposal rates were assessed and concentrations of hormones involved in glucose allocation were measured.
Results: Glucose disposal rates were lower by 19% in patients with typical MDD and 30% in patients with atypical MDD than in the group of healthy controls (3.2 ± 0.8 and 2.8 ± 0.7 versus 4.0 ± 1.0 mmol h1 kg1). C-peptide concentrations were 26% higher in patients with atypical MDD and similar in patients with typical MDD and healthy controls. Vascular endothelial growth factor concentrations were 30% higher in typical MDD and similar in atypical MDD and the control group.
Conclusions: Whole-body glucose disposal is reduced in patients with typical and atypical depression. The observed neuroendocrine responses suggest a hyperactive allocation system in typical depression and a hypoactive allocation system in atypical depression.
-d/r
Posted by desolationrower on March 30, 2011, at 21:00:16
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants » desolationrower, posted by Phillipa on March 25, 2011, at 13:26:20
> dr all I know is years ago before any problems I was on the Atkins 0 carb diet and one night when out felt really out of it so ate some carbs and was fine. I also came out diabetic on 5 hour glucose test at the time was told to go home eat lots of carbs and retest and did and came back low blood sugar. Phillipa
thanks
-d/r
Posted by 49er on April 6, 2011, at 5:39:46
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants » 49er, posted by morgan miller on March 30, 2011, at 12:49:16
> Wrote a fairly long response, one last night that I forgot to confirm, and a longer one today that I just forgot to confirm, ugh. I'm going to get back to this as I did have some things to say. I agree I should have worded and approached my earlier responses in a better way : ) Hope your adjusting well to the new job.
>
> MorganHi Morgan,
Well, I quit it because it literally was the job from h-ll.
So now I have time to give the primal blueprint plan a real shot. I am starting today and very excited about doing something that I feel will greatly improve my health.
49er
Posted by morgan miller on April 6, 2011, at 23:49:24
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants » morgan miller, posted by 49er on April 6, 2011, at 5:39:46
> > Wrote a fairly long response, one last night that I forgot to confirm, and a longer one today that I just forgot to confirm, ugh. I'm going to get back to this as I did have some things to say. I agree I should have worded and approached my earlier responses in a better way : ) Hope your adjusting well to the new job.
> >
> > Morgan
>
> Hi Morgan,
>
> Well, I quit it because it literally was the job from h-ll.
>
> So now I have time to give the primal blueprint plan a real shot. I am starting today and very excited about doing something that I feel will greatly improve my health.
>
> 49erQuitting a job from hell is always a good thing.
Hope the transition into a more primal diet goes well. I hope you do notice yourself feeling better after a 3 or 4 weeks.
Morgan
Posted by 49er on April 20, 2011, at 1:41:16
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants, posted by morgan miller on April 6, 2011, at 23:49:24
> > > Wrote a fairly long response, one last night that I forgot to confirm, and a longer one today that I just forgot to confirm, ugh. I'm going to get back to this as I did have some things to say. I agree I should have worded and approached my earlier responses in a better way : ) Hope your adjusting well to the new job.
> > >
> > > Morgan
> >
> > Hi Morgan,
> >
> > Well, I quit it because it literally was the job from h-ll.
> >
> > So now I have time to give the primal blueprint plan a real shot. I am starting today and very excited about doing something that I feel will greatly improve my health.
> >
> > 49er
>
> Quitting a job from hell is always a good thing.
>
> Hope the transition into a more primal diet goes well. I hope you do notice yourself feeling better after a 3 or 4 weeks.
>
> MorganHi Morgan,
My profuse apologies as I realized I never responded to your post. Thanks for your well wishes.
After struggling big time to make the changes, I have decided to go with a low to moderate carb diet and not restrict any type of carbs as long as I stay in a certain range and don't eat processed junk. Doing that led to having one of my best days yesterday, diet wise.
Also, when I am not worried about being so strict, it is easier to pay attention to how food affects me and make the necessary changes.
I hope you are doing well.
49er
Posted by desolationrower on June 11, 2011, at 12:59:29
In reply to Re: has anyone done ketogenic diet + antidepressants » morgan miller, posted by 49er on April 20, 2011, at 1:41:16
Norepinephrine is required for the anticonvulsant effect of the ketogenic diet.
Szot P, Weinshenker D, Rho JM, Storey TW, Schwartzkroin PA.
SourceGeriatric Research, Education and Clinical Center (GRECC) (182B), VA Puget Sound Health Care System, 1660 S. Columbian Way, Seattle, WA 98108, USA. szot@u.washington.edu
AbstractKetogenic diet (KD) is a high fat, low carbohydrate diet used to treat children with epilepsy that are refractory to conventional antiepileptic drugs (AEDs). The anticonvulsant mechanism of the KD is unknown. To determine if the noradrenergic system has a role in mediating the anticonvulsant action of the KD, dopamine beta-hydroxylase knockout (Dbh -/-) mice that lack norepinephrine (NE) and Dbh +/- littermates that have normal NE content were fed either a standard rodent chow or the KD. When exposed to the convulsant flurothyl, Dbh +/- mice fed the KD had significantly longer latencies to myoclonic jerk (MJ) and generalized clonic-tonic (CT) seizures than Dbh +/- mice fed normal chow. In contrast, Dbh -/- mice fed the KD had seizure latencies to both MJ and CT comparable to Dbh -/- mice fed normal chow. These results suggest that an intact, functional noradrenergic nervous system is required for the KD to exert an anticonvulsant effect.
PMID:
11506865
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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