![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by harry b. on March 13, 2000, at 23:53:56
I have not said this specifically, but if you've read
between the lines you probably know.If the spectrum of sexuality is 0=strictly heterosexual
and 5=true bisexuality and 10=strictly homosexual,
I would be a 7, maybe even an 8.That is the core issue of my depression. I have known
of my sexuality since I was 15yrs old. I hated it then
and I still hate it now. I basically hate myself for
what I am. That of course has led to my isolation.
It's a paradox. I'm afraid if I tell people, they will
reject me. To avoid the perceived rejection, I hide it
and isolate myself, thus self-creating my loneliness
and rejection. The recent crisis with my old friend
put me over the edge.I'm masculine, have no 'gay' affectations and I can 'pass'
as a straight man anywhere. I'm nearly 50yrs old and have
decided that I'd best try to accept and love myself.
If I can manage that, maybe, just maybe, I could find
the loving, intimate relationship that I so desperately
feel a need for.My new friend is a bit of a puzzle. I'm attracted to him
because of his open, kind, loving nature. Not because
he's a hunk, because he isn't. That's the kind of
relationship I yearn for. Based on trust, caring, and
love, not limited to physical appearance.If anyone has any rude or prejudiced comments to make,
keep them to yourselves. I've called myself things that
you sure couldn't top.Anyway, welcome to harry's coming out party. It's a
start.
Posted by JanetR on March 14, 2000, at 0:33:41
In reply to you probably figured it out......but, posted by harry b. on March 13, 2000, at 23:53:56
> I have not said this specifically, but if you've read
> between the lines you probably know.
>
> If the spectrum of sexuality is 0=strictly heterosexual
> and 5=true bisexuality and 10=strictly homosexual,
> I would be a 7, maybe even an 8.
>
> That is the core issue of my depression. I have known
> of my sexuality since I was 15yrs old. I hated it then
> and I still hate it now. I basically hate myself for
> what I am. That of course has led to my isolation.
> It's a paradox. I'm afraid if I tell people, they will
> reject me. To avoid the perceived rejection, I hide it
> and isolate myself, thus self-creating my loneliness
> and rejection. The recent crisis with my old friend
> put me over the edge.
>
> I'm masculine, have no 'gay' affectations and I can 'pass'
> as a straight man anywhere. I'm nearly 50yrs old and have
> decided that I'd best try to accept and love myself.
> If I can manage that, maybe, just maybe, I could find
> the loving, intimate relationship that I so desperately
> feel a need for.
>
> My new friend is a bit of a puzzle. I'm attracted to him
> because of his open, kind, loving nature. Not because
> he's a hunk, because he isn't. That's the kind of
> relationship I yearn for. Based on trust, caring, and
> love, not limited to physical appearance.
>
> If anyone has any rude or prejudiced comments to make,
> keep them to yourselves. I've called myself things that
> you sure couldn't top.
>
> Anyway, welcome to harry's coming out party. It's a
> start.
>
> Thanks for the invitation! My brother is homosexual and I know how much he has suffered because of rejection. He does have slight mannerisms and although he is extremely intelligent he had to leave school early because of the cruel comments made by teachers and classmates. Another life wasted. This was 30 years ago and I don't know if things have improved since then. He is one of the most generous, kindest people you could ever wish to meet. But even so my Irish, Catholic working- class parents threw him out when he did 'come out'at the age of 18. How people can judge others on the basis of their sexual orientation is beyond me. The irony of it all, is that my mother had a stroke a year ago and he is the only one of 7 children who has the love, patience and kindness to nurse her. He has suffered also and has built up his defences. I just feel sorry for the waste of a life . He is so very intelligent and talented. Anyhow I don't think you are going to be rejected by anyone on this board. I'm sure we've all suffered for diverging from the "normal"in various ways . I'm glad you have decided to accept yourself . It is the first and most important step of a new journey. Good Luck and may you find love and happiness along the way . Jan
>
>
Posted by Cass on March 14, 2000, at 0:45:41
In reply to Re: you probably figured it out......but, posted by JanetR on March 14, 2000, at 0:33:41
HarryB, I just think it's awesome that you decided to "come out" here. I truly don't think you could have chosen a better place. I hope you feel empowered by this acknowledgment of your sexual identity. Feeling comfortable with your sexuality will probably improve your social life. Good luck.
Posted by bigbertha on March 14, 2000, at 2:17:48
In reply to you probably figured it out......but, posted by harry b. on March 13, 2000, at 23:53:56
>I'd best try to accept and love myself.
Good on you! And if you haven't noticed yet,
nobody here cares if you're gay, covered in
green polka-dots, or wear a cupcake-hat!
I'm interested in a person named HARRY, not what
he is - unless that's a jerk --and how or if I can help
him to achieve that stated. That's what draws us to
this watering hole.GOHARRYGOHARRYGOHARRYGOHARRY....
> Anyway, welcome to harry's coming out party. It's a
> start.It really is too bad we're so scattered, because a
party with so many amazing people would kick-ass!
Posted by NikkiT on March 14, 2000, at 6:00:44
In reply to you probably figured it out......but, posted by harry b. on March 13, 2000, at 23:53:56
>>>>>>
That probably took a hell of alot of guts for you to post.. thats great!
I've never understood why anyone (I've not read the replies, but just incase someone was not 100% supportive) would, or could, ever judge anyone on whether they fancy men or women. if someone falls in love, does it actually matter what sex that eprosn is on love with?
I'm hetro (mainly), but have always had a big problem with anyone who judges someone on something a silly as this... I've even had someone not really want to be close to me, simply because I was hetro (yup, theres some people out there who think if you'r not gay, you're not cool!).Sorry, I'm ranting.. It just makes me mad that we live in a world where you had to work up the guts to say something like "I fancy someone of the same sex as me". I guess I am striving after some kind of ideal life at the moment as I feel my life is so shit, that I get angry at people making problems for others when they don't need to...
Good luck though... and remember - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if you love his "insides" what doe sthe out side matter??
Posted by Cam W. on March 14, 2000, at 7:28:17
In reply to figured it out..and don't give a rat's ---, posted by bigbertha on March 14, 2000, at 2:17:48
Harry - As above suggests, you won't find a more understanding group anywhere. I commend you on making a decision and sharing it with us. Congrats Harry, and all the best in your new position.... in life. (Sorry, that was bad, but I'm in a weird mood today - hopefully no offense taken - none meant). Again, way to go. Sincerely - Cam W.
Posted by Noa on March 14, 2000, at 10:52:01
In reply to Re: figured it out..and don't give a rat's ---, posted by Cam W. on March 14, 2000, at 7:28:17
Harry, I am honored to be a party to your party. I think we are all on a journey of learning to acknowledge and accept and maybe even enjoy who we are. You are taking an amazing step.
Posted by Adam on March 14, 2000, at 13:35:13
In reply to you probably figured it out......but, posted by harry b. on March 13, 2000, at 23:53:56
Hey, harry b.,During the last year or so of college I had two close friends (I guess I should say as close as casual friends could be at that time)come out to me within about a month. One, a woman who I must admit I had quite a crush on, chose me as the first person besides her new girlfriend to tell. After I got over what I am a bit ashamed to say was a state of shock I got involved in the Bisexual, Gay, and Lesbian Advocacy (BGLAd) club and became one of its more active members. I saw pretty much firsthand what coming out did to some of my friends. Some of them had wonderful families and other supportive people in their lives and truly blossomed once they abandoned the hetero charade. Others (like my friend, who went from very straight-seeming "femme" to shaving her head and not her legs, piercing nipples and god-knows-what-else (in the early nineties, this was still rebellious)), well, I guess they went too far "the other way" and many of their old friends moved away from them. Their parents, often devout Christians, while certainly not disowning them, could not or would not conceal their disappointment. It was very sad to see them, not so much changing as becoming more themselves, suffer the effects of rejection, especially the ones who had themselves been people of faith. I sometimes wondered of the flamboyance wasn't a kind of "fuck you all" preemption, and a way of coping with a bit of self-hatred too for what they couldn't help being but wished they could.
Later, after graduating, my girlfriend, who I had reconnected with, came out to me as being bisexual, and having experimented a little during a hiatus. Initially I was horrified, then kind of excited once I, again I'm a bit ashamed to say, contemplated the possibilities, which she seemed rather intrigued by too. One night after fooling around and fatasising about another woman with us, she made a request: Another man. Not in real life, but still...I went along with it, though, to make her happy, and, you know, responded. That's when the trouble began.
She went back to school after break and I began to ruminate on that night. Things went downhill very quickly. Somehow the idea that I had found this deeply erotic fatasy the slightest bit pleasurable began to gnaw at me. I couldn't stop thinking about it. The I started to wonder about my relationship: Was there somthing about me that appealed to a woman who liked women? The I thought about the last year and a half or so at school; I was hanging around with a lot of gay people and what did THAT mean, and so on. It got out of control in about a week and I was in a state of frenzy. I went from "am I gay, am I gay, am I gay, am I gay, am I gay" to "I am gay, I am gay, I am gay, I am gay."
It was OCD essentially, and ironically this was at the tail end of a long period of intense behavioral therapy to combat body dysmorphia. I guess in a way I developed some kind of dyserotica very quickly and it nearly killed me. I wanted to die. It was sheer terror for about two weeks. I could neither eat not sleep. My girlfriend thought I had lost my mind. I thought I did. I stupidly even concealed it from my therapist for the first week until I thought I would explode.
When I told him he smiled and very calmly informed me of what was going on. In a short period I got an intensive course in human sexuality that life had ironically been teaching me for the last two years or so, but I had completely lost my ability to grasp in a matter of days. I fortuitously lived in Dupont Circle, a neighborhood of Washington DC known to some as the "Fruit Loop" that I had quite accidentally landed because it was cheap but relatively safe and near a lot of cool stuff. I was instructed to join a health club so I could be around a lot of scantily-clad and sweaty bodies, and to also pay a visit or two to a very, very gay bar down the road called the "Firehouse". This was murder. This was pure, raw terror and I hated every second of it until I started having a good time and forgetting for a few seconds every hour or so what it was that I was so afraid of. I'm still not sure now what it was that I was so afraid of, but I got through it by doing some rather difficult (for me) things, like buying books at the local gay-friendly bookstore ("Lambda Rising", which had its share of softcore porn proudly dislpayed-lots of very large penises, man), volunteering time at the Walker-Whitman clinic (local AIDS clinic of some noteriety). This was not at all a fun experience for me, but it taught me a lot about myself, and did a great deal to remind and reenforce in me a very important lesson: Sex and sexuality is nothing to fear, and that irrational fear of such can make you ill.
I guess I'm "straight", but I think I could kiss a man full on the lips today and maybe even like it. I thought Keanu Reeves looked good in "The Matrix". I love women. I love their bodies, their hair, their voices, their smell. I think some male bodies are very aesthetically pleasing, and I wish I looked like them too. Touching breasts makes my knees weak sometimes. Having her hands on me in some places almost hurts it's so nice.
I like what I like. I had to get the crap kicked out of me mentally before I could even say that with any confidence, though, and it's awful others have to suffer the same, OCD or not. What prejudice and taboo have done to us in the realm of human sexuality and in our own ability to accept ourselves as we are, and others as they are, is one of those high crimes humanity has inflicted on itself. It is needless. Sex is good, whatever it is. Love is even better. We want and need both (within reason, of course), so we have to face this desire head on and go for it. Human beings are pretty versitile sexually, and our vast range of tastes reflects this. It all needs to be confronted and explored and a healthy way, and I think a deeply damaging form of hatred, both of others and of the self, will vanish if we can.
Congratulations, harry. What you are doing takes a lot of courage, and you are on a path towards greater happiness and peace. It would be pollyanna-ish to tell you it will all be smooth sailing, and that even some of your very closest friends and loved ones won't be upset or even abandon you, but it's THEIR PROBLEM. You'll only have a problem if you let the fear get to you too. If not, you will be a healthier individual than 99% of the people out there. I salute you for doing what is right. Go for it.
> I have not said this specifically, but if you've read
> between the lines you probably know.
>
> If the spectrum of sexuality is 0=strictly heterosexual
> and 5=true bisexuality and 10=strictly homosexual,
> I would be a 7, maybe even an 8.
>
> That is the core issue of my depression. I have known
> of my sexuality since I was 15yrs old. I hated it then
> and I still hate it now. I basically hate myself for
> what I am. That of course has led to my isolation.
> It's a paradox. I'm afraid if I tell people, they will
> reject me. To avoid the perceived rejection, I hide it
> and isolate myself, thus self-creating my loneliness
> and rejection. The recent crisis with my old friend
> put me over the edge.
>
> I'm masculine, have no 'gay' affectations and I can 'pass'
> as a straight man anywhere. I'm nearly 50yrs old and have
> decided that I'd best try to accept and love myself.
> If I can manage that, maybe, just maybe, I could find
> the loving, intimate relationship that I so desperately
> feel a need for.
>
> My new friend is a bit of a puzzle. I'm attracted to him
> because of his open, kind, loving nature. Not because
> he's a hunk, because he isn't. That's the kind of
> relationship I yearn for. Based on trust, caring, and
> love, not limited to physical appearance.
>
> If anyone has any rude or prejudiced comments to make,
> keep them to yourselves. I've called myself things that
> you sure couldn't top.
>
> Anyway, welcome to harry's coming out party. It's a
> start.
>
>
>
>
Posted by darling on March 14, 2000, at 17:35:18
In reply to Re: harry: I'm sorry, quite long as per usual...., posted by Adam on March 14, 2000, at 13:35:13
harry,
well, i'm probably only a 3 but have always been (and shall probably always be) excessively effeminate, and so know first-hand that in many places there is still quite a stigma about anything other than pure unadulterated heterosexuality. And so even if I don't care a whit about your sexual orientation, I'm very glad that you have taken this step, for certainly it indicates much bravery. congratulations.
darling
Posted by harry b. on March 14, 2000, at 22:41:50
In reply to you probably figured it out......but, posted by harry b. on March 13, 2000, at 23:53:56
Thank You Janet R, Cass, bigbertha, NikkiT, Cam W.
Noa, darling, kazoo, and especially Adam. I feel
kinda validated by your responses.Adam, your post was awesome. That took a lot of
courage. Thanks so much.I once knew a woman who felt so alone and wanted
some form of intimacy. She said to me "I just wish
I had someone to ask me 'would you like a cup of
tea, dear?'."That is similar to my need. Sex can be loving, fun,
intense. I want someone to come home to and watch
TV with. I want a companion to sail with me.
I want to hold & be held. I want to hug and kiss
and hear someone snoring next to me. If there is
sex, great. But sex is not the most important
thing for me.I know there is no way I will be flamboyant, that's
not my style.I don't have a family or close friends to come out
to. I should begin with the new friend I met in
the hospital, but, yikes!, I sure don't want to
lose him so soon. He's very open and compassionant,
we hug each other, but he is in his 60's
(I think I've got a crush on him, those hugs feel
so good) and a VERY devout Christian. I will
broach the subject carefully to try to get his
opinion.I'd like to say more, about not fitting in or being
uncomfortable in the presence of other gay men, but
I'm sleepy, so goodnight everyone, and thanks again.
Posted by Janice on March 14, 2000, at 23:59:24
In reply to Re: you probably figured it out......but, posted by harry b. on March 14, 2000, at 22:41:50
hello Harry b,
welcome out of the stuffy closet.
I had a similar experience to Adam--as I had a very severe depression one winter with OCD thoughts telling me I was gay. I found accepting I was manic-depressive, ADHD and anorexic easier than accepting I was gay.
It turns out I'm not gay, but I will never forget the amount of courage that I believe it would take for someone to accept this.
anyway, you're perfectly fine any sexual way you want to be around me harry b. It's all externals. Janice
Posted by Adam on March 15, 2000, at 10:50:02
In reply to Re: you probably figured it out......but, posted by harry b. on March 14, 2000, at 22:41:50
When I went through my "I must be gay if..." thing my doctor educated me on a rather important fact: "Gay", "Straight", and even "Bi" just aren't very useful catagories to put people in when you get right down to individual habits and predilections. There is, of course, the Kinsey scale, which has somewhat more gradation, but still. As I said above, people like what they like. If someone forced me to tell them "what I am" I think the only factual statement I could give would be "I prefer women and I have never been with a man."Humans like to catagorize, and don't deal very well with ambiguity. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, and perhaps am a little more flexible in the realm of sexuality only because my sometimes pathological intolerance for ambiguity necessitated such an adaptation. I'm happier now because of it, and I'm sure I would be more happy in a general sense if I could manage to be less black-and-white in my thinking.
Apropos, harry, you might try dispensing with the whole idea of looking at people (including yourself) as gay or straight or whatever and just think of them the way you think of people who like sushi or can't stand it, or have some other list of preferences that would be a bit silly to catagorize into constricting cubbyholes (I may be weird, but I think there's something sexual going on with sushi, oysters on the half-shell, and the like...wasabi...oh boy).
It's a tough thing to do, no question. Society, as it exists, almost necessitates sexual ghettoization, with right-wingers and left-wingers and various other advocacies variably attacking and reconciling with one another all the time. I find it quite amusing now to listen to people grapple with what they heard about so-and-so who is a lesbian (isn't she?) but hooked up with such-and-such guy that one night, and does that mean she's bi, or maybe confused, or what, because, after all, she is very pretty... I mean, who cares WHAT she is? She's not confused, it's everyone else trying to figure her out who are confused.
So, you know, you like what you like. Maybe now and then a woman appeals to you. Maybe you just prefer men who don't fit the "mincing queen" stereotype, and because of all the pejorative crap that's been thrown at you by society about "feminine affectations" you feel uncomfortable around them to boot. There are plenty of men of all proclivities who have "machismo", so you won't have a hard time findng someone there.
I'm learning all the time that if you can manage not to can and label people, you feel better about them and about yourself. It's terribly difficult not to do, and I'm hardly a big success in that regard. But I know it's true all the same, and I know it will work for you, too.
Best of luck!
> Thank You Janet R, Cass, bigbertha, NikkiT, Cam W.
> Noa, darling, kazoo, and especially Adam. I feel
> kinda validated by your responses.
>
> Adam, your post was awesome. That took a lot of
> courage. Thanks so much.
>
> I once knew a woman who felt so alone and wanted
> some form of intimacy. She said to me "I just wish
> I had someone to ask me 'would you like a cup of
> tea, dear?'."
>
> That is similar to my need. Sex can be loving, fun,
> intense. I want someone to come home to and watch
> TV with. I want a companion to sail with me.
> I want to hold & be held. I want to hug and kiss
> and hear someone snoring next to me. If there is
> sex, great. But sex is not the most important
> thing for me.
>
> I know there is no way I will be flamboyant, that's
> not my style.
>
> I don't have a family or close friends to come out
> to. I should begin with the new friend I met in
> the hospital, but, yikes!, I sure don't want to
> lose him so soon. He's very open and compassionant,
> we hug each other, but he is in his 60's
> (I think I've got a crush on him, those hugs feel
> so good) and a VERY devout Christian. I will
> broach the subject carefully to try to get his
> opinion.
>
> I'd like to say more, about not fitting in or being
> uncomfortable in the presence of other gay men, but
> I'm sleepy, so goodnight everyone, and thanks again.
>
Posted by Noa on March 15, 2000, at 15:12:51
In reply to Re: you probably figured it out......but, posted by Adam on March 15, 2000, at 10:50:02
What people have said here is awesome. I am impressed.
What I want to offer is this: While it might free you up to not worry about "labels" and "categories", I think it is worth your while to consider who you are reaching out to for the kind of relationship you might want. You might want to seek out a support group for gay men, if you want to start meeting men who might return the interest that you show.
Reaching out to this friend from the hospital is good, but try to be mindful of what you expect. If he is not inclined to have an intimate relationship with another man (you), will you feel rejected? Can you accept a less intimate friendship? Will you be willing to look for more intimate companionship from someone who is more likely to reciprocate, or will it be hard for you to do that?
If you are not ready to interact with men who might reciprocate, can you explore your fears about this?
Think about setting yourself up for some possible success by trying to meet men who might reciprocate.
Posted by harry b. on March 15, 2000, at 21:08:26
In reply to On the other hand...., posted by Noa on March 15, 2000, at 15:12:51
Bull's eye, Noa.
yes, I am intimidated by gay men
yes, I am attracted to men who are straight/married
By trying to be more open and self respecting
I hope to be able to influence the above,
therapy will also (hopefully) help this processMy new friend. I have thought about this a lot.
I'm very vulnerable now. His interest and kindness
toward me, and his own vulnerability, have led
to a friendship. I have got to be careful not to
become dependant upon him. I can definitely accept
friendship & platonic love. Actually, I brought
this up with my therapist today. My friend and
I are to meet Friday eveng. My therapist has
scheduled a session with me Friday afternoon to
discuss this some more.Thanks for your concern and astute observations.
Posted by PattyG on March 15, 2000, at 22:56:05
In reply to Re: On the other hand...., posted by harry b. on March 15, 2000, at 21:08:26
Hello again, Harry,
Awesome posts........pretty amazing folks here, I'd say:) Wanted to comment on reference to some parents not being able to cope with a child's (regardless of age, for parents, their children are their children!)homosexuality. I think that can be because they realize the potential for heartache and what brings their children pain brings pain to parents.
Also.......I thought the "ultimate fantasy" for a guy was supposed to be making it with two women! (Have to admit, I only just learned this several years ago as my own son and nephews grew older and joked around!)
As for the Christianity aspect of things......it's tough for some people to deal with these issues. I believe it is a personal decision and my thought would be that your new friend, even if not interested in anything more than a platonic relationship, will be able to love you as a friend just as God loves you as His child.
Posted by michael on March 16, 2000, at 2:20:29
In reply to Re: On the other hand...., posted by harry b. on March 15, 2000, at 21:08:26
> Bull's eye, Noa.
>
> yes, I am intimidated by gay men
>
> yes, I am attracted to men who are straight/married
>
> By trying to be more open and self respecting
> I hope to be able to influence the above,
> therapy will also (hopefully) help this process
>
> My new friend. I have thought about this a lot.
> I'm very vulnerable now. His interest and kindness
> toward me, and his own vulnerability, have led
> to a friendship. I have got to be careful not to
> become dependant upon him. I can definitely accept
> friendship & platonic love. Actually, I brought
> this up with my therapist today. My friend and
> I are to meet Friday eveng. My therapist has
> scheduled a session with me Friday afternoon to
> discuss this some more.
>
> Thanks for your concern and astute observations.
Hey Harry -Just a quick 2 cents worth... kind of along the lines you & Noa already mentioned. This may be stating the obvious, but you might freak your friend out a bit (maybe a lot) with your news...
Hopefully not! However, if you've been leaning on him somewhat lately, just make sure you're aware that the support you've become accoustomed to may be withdrawn... partially or temporarily, or totally.
I don't mean to be negative, just playing devil's advocate. It's just something to be aware of, so that if it were to happen, it wouldn't blind side you... Hope that makes some sense... & good luck!
michael
Posted by harry b. on March 16, 2000, at 17:17:48
In reply to Re: On the other hand...., posted by michael on March 16, 2000, at 2:20:29
Michael,
I'm aware of the risks. As for leaning on him, yes
I have been. BUT he has called me, needing to talk,
more often than I have called him. I asked him to
go to the movie with me tomorrow evening. He asked
me if we could meet earlier and go to dinner before
the movie.The session I have scheduled with my therapist
tomorrow afternoon is to address whether or not
I should tell him yet, or to try to find ways of
getting his opinions on homosexuality without outing
myself. It all sounds devious, I know, but one
thing my therapist pointed out is that I AM depressed,
I AM on medications, and I AM NOT totally rational.
(whatever that is)It might be that the best thing is to let the friendship
continue for a while longer before making any rash
decisions that could endanger it.I appreciate your concerns.
Posted by Adam on March 16, 2000, at 18:43:42
In reply to Re: On the other hand...., posted by PattyG on March 15, 2000, at 22:56:05
> Hello again, Harry,
>
> Awesome posts........pretty amazing folks here, I'd say:) Wanted to comment on reference to some parents not being able to cope with a child's (regardless of age, for parents, their children are their children!)homosexuality. I think that can be because they realize the potential for heartache and what brings their children pain brings pain to parents.
>
Well, there's that. Some parents think it's just plain wrong though, and are so homophobic they can't even touch their kids afterward. You think I'm going to ever tell my Dad some of the stuff I mentioned above? No freakin' way. I've had enough grief. And I'm not even "gay", though he called me a pansy once or twice, actually, and hasn't disowned me; so maybe I underestimate him.> Also.......I thought the "ultimate fantasy" for a guy was supposed to be making it with two women! (Have to admit, I only just learned this several years ago as my own son and nephews grew older and joked around!)
>
For this guy it sure was. Then, wonder of wonders, the opportunity almost presented itself, in the form of a high-school friend who went to the same school she did. I think once the guy figures out that the whole thing isn't somehow contrived purely for his entertainment it gets a bit dicey. I went from "holy moly" to very jealous of the crush between them in about two days, and eventually put my foot down, so to speak, you know, "me or her, dammit," kind of thing. Way more stress than it's worth, IMO. I was such a hypocrit, though, because if I had a crush on a woman and she was into that, of course I'd have been thrilled. What a mess.> As for the Christianity aspect of things......it's tough for some people to deal with these issues. I believe it is a personal decision and my thought would be that your new friend, even if not interested in anything more than a platonic relationship, will be able to love you as a friend just as God loves you as His child.
I'm not sure it is a decision, at least for some people. I've been told more than once that you would have to be nuts to "decide" to be same-sex oriented in our society. I think some, like my ex-girlfriend, can go through their "try-sexual" stage in school and then, as she wound up doing, fall for some guy (not me, alas...or maybe not) and get married. Who knows? Besides pure curiosity in human behavior, I'm not sure it ought to matter, and I think it's absurd when some accuse homosexuals (just can't avoid these labels, can I) of depravity, like anyone can say what our "natural" sexual state is, anyway. Natural is probably whatever you feel like, and I imagine both innate and environmental (both physiological and psychological) factors play a role. Twin studies have shown a definite heritability for "gayness", but, remarkably, not all identical twins display the same sexual behaviors in that regard. Genetic studies have all shown equivocable associations with various polymorhisms at best, and nobody has zeroed in on an actual gene, despite the strong "penetrance" in some instances. This is not for want of searching. It's pretty amazing, really.
Posted by michael on March 16, 2000, at 19:00:25
In reply to Re: On the other hand...., posted by harry b. on March 16, 2000, at 17:17:48
> Michael,
>
> I'm aware of the risks. As for leaning on him, yes
> I have been. BUT he has called me, needing to talk,
> more often than I have called him. I asked him to
> go to the movie with me tomorrow evening. He asked
> me if we could meet earlier and go to dinner before
> the movie.
>
> The session I have scheduled with my therapist
> tomorrow afternoon is to address whether or not
> I should tell him yet, or to try to find ways of
> getting his opinions on homosexuality without outing
> myself. It all sounds devious, I know, but one
> thing my therapist pointed out is that I AM depressed,
> I AM on medications, and I AM NOT totally rational.
> (whatever that is)
>
> It might be that the best thing is to let the friendship
> continue for a while longer before making any rash
> decisions that could endanger it.
>
> I appreciate your concerns.
Harry -Like I said - I was stating the obvious...
Sounds like you've pretty much got everything in perspective - at least from my perspective. Sounds to me like you were reading my mind.
Just for future reference, I'm sure that with minimal effort, you can find far more entertaining & satisfying reading! Hope you have a good weekend.
Posted by PattyG on March 16, 2000, at 21:08:22
In reply to Re: On the other hand...., posted by Adam on March 16, 2000, at 19:10:16
Adam wrote: I'm not sure it is a decision, at least for some people. I've been told more than once that you would have to be
nuts to "decide" to be same-sex oriented in our society.
My reference to decision making was with regard to how a friend, acquaintance (anyone) is going to view the situation. I was referring to Harry's new friend - it will be a personal decison on his part as to how he will respond to the revelation (and, of course, a lot will depend on whether or not the new friend is so inclined himself!) As for parents who disown their children.......I don't understand that, but then, the world is full of many strange happenings........
Posted by saint james on March 16, 2000, at 21:51:53
In reply to you probably figured it out......but, posted by harry b. on March 13, 2000, at 23:53:56
why don't you join the pflag-talk list ? PFLAG, Parents and Friends of Gay and Lesbians has several lists but the pflag-talk list is the one you want. I have been on it since 1994 and it was created in the late 80's by Maggie Hienmann, who is the coolest str8 person I know. She is a mom of a gay kid and was a gay cyber activist way b4 Al Gore "invented " the internet. Pflag-talk is one of the oldest list-servs in net history that is still running. It is the best run list of the many I have been on. We stay right on point. YOu don't have to be a member of PFLAG, though you should try to go to the meetings. On the list the majority of the list is gay with the rest parents or friends. The list members have helped many parents thru thier kids comming out process and lots of gay people come out.
Go to http://www.critpath.org/pflag-talk/ to see how to join this list.
Come on Harry, Closets are for wardrobe not people ! I can tell you from personal experience it is better on the outside.
james
Posted by Adam on March 17, 2000, at 16:04:09
In reply to Re: On the other hand...., posted by harry b. on March 16, 2000, at 17:17:48
>
> The session I have scheduled with my therapist
> tomorrow afternoon is to address whether or not
> I should tell him yet, or to try to find ways of
> getting his opinions on homosexuality without outing
> myself. It all sounds devious, I know, but one
> thing my therapist pointed out is that I AM depressed,
> I AM on medications, and I AM NOT totally rational.
> (whatever that is)
>
> It might be that the best thing is to let the friendship
> continue for a while longer before making any rash
> decisions that could endanger it.
>
> I appreciate your concerns.I hope things go well, harry. It's always good to err on the side of caution. I can't tell you how you should feel about this guy, but it is this psychobabbler's oppinion that if he can't accept you as you are, he is not really your friend. I don't think it's devious to feel him out on his attitudes without outing yourself. If the world were a just place, you would have no worries, but, without being too much of a pessimist, people aren't always as tolerant as they should be, and you don't need a lot of grief right now. I think some day you will have left the closet happily behind you, but there's no hurry. Take care of yourself.
Adam
Posted by harry b. on March 17, 2000, at 21:14:29
In reply to Re: On the other hand...., posted by Adam on March 17, 2000, at 16:04:09
> I hope things go well, harry. It's always good to err on the side of caution. I can't tell you how you should feel about this guy, but it is this psychobabbler's oppinion that if he can't accept you as you are, he is not really your friend. I don't think it's devious to feel him out on his attitudes without outing yourself. If the world were a just place, you would have no worries, but, without being too much of a pessimist, people aren't always as tolerant as they should be, and you don't need a lot of grief right now. I think some day you will have left the closet happily behind you, but there's no hurry. Take care of yourself.
>
> Adam**************************************************
Thanks Adam.I did not even try to get an opinion from him today.
He was waiting for me outside my day program. He
appeared to be really down in the dumps. He had been
trying to call me this week but was using an incorrect
#, so we hadn't talked in several days.His immediate problem was that he had no money and wanted to
cancel our plans. When he had his stroke several
years ago, his wife gained control of his assets
and forced him out of their home. He had owned a
business, employing 40 people, and was comfortable
financially. Now his wife still controls the finances
and gives him no money. Social security benefits are his
only income. He has physical handicaps from his stroke
and can only perform menial tasks, thus no ability
to earn his own money.I told him that dinner & the movie would be my treat.
I, myself, was pretty low today but just being with
him makes me feel good. I tried to cheer him up,
actually got him to laugh a bit, and he enjoyed
the movie. I asked if he needed my company tonight,
because I was concerned about his low mood, but he said
he was tired and wanted to go home and go to bed.
I asked if he needed money for food or gasoline but
he refused. I'm angry at myself for not being more
insistant about that, but he does have a son & a
daughter who live near him and who are very supportive.When we were leaving the movie, I told him he should
zip up his jacket, because it was cold & windy. He
replied that he couldn't (he has lost all function of
his right arm and hand). I zipped his jacket for
him and he thanked me. I told him to never be
afraid to ask for my assistance. His eyes filled
with tears. I'm worried about him and will probably
call him tomorrow to make sure he's Ok.We did not hug tonight, but I held his hand for
a minute or two before we parted. This is a new
experience for me. I'm feeling down and very needy,
but being able to help him, trying to get him
to smile, to listen to him express his problems
and to just be there for him makes me feel good
and worthy. It also takes my mind off my own
problems. I've lost the urgency to speak about
sexuality. He and I both need to work on getting
well, I think we will remain friends for a long
time.harry
Posted by harry b. on March 17, 2000, at 21:30:12
In reply to Re: you probably figured it out......but, posted by saint james on March 16, 2000, at 21:51:53
> why don't you join the pflag-talk list ? PFLAG, Parents and Friends of Gay and Lesbians has several lists but the pflag-talk list is the one you want. I have been on it since 1994 and it was created in the late 80's by Maggie Hienmann, who is the coolest str8 person I know. She is a mom of a gay kid and was a gay cyber activist way b4 Al Gore "invented " the internet. Pflag-talk is one of the oldest list-servs in net history that is still running. It is the best run list of the many I have been on. We stay right on point. YOu don't have to be a member of PFLAG, though you should try to go to the meetings. On the list the majority of the list is gay with the rest parents or friends. The list members have helped many parents thru thier kids comming out process and lots of gay people come out.
>
> Go to http://www.critpath.org/pflag-talk/ to see how to join this list.
>
> Come on Harry, Closets are for wardrobe not people ! I can tell you from personal experience it is better on the outside.
>
> james*************************************************
Thanks for the info James.
I will go to the site and maybe even join. I have
to get my feet wet sometime, and I really believe
I need to do it soon.harry
Posted by michael on March 17, 2000, at 22:24:27
In reply to Re: On the other hand...., posted by harry b. on March 17, 2000, at 21:14:29
>
>
> > I hope things go well, harry. It's always good to err on the side of caution. I can't tell you how you should feel about this guy, but it is this psychobabbler's oppinion that if he can't accept you as you are, he is not really your friend. I don't think it's devious to feel him out on his attitudes without outing yourself. If the world were a just place, you would have no worries, but, without being too much of a pessimist, people aren't always as tolerant as they should be, and you don't need a lot of grief right now. I think some day you will have left the closet happily behind you, but there's no hurry. Take care of yourself.
> >
> > Adam
>
> **************************************************
>
>
> Thanks Adam.
>
> I did not even try to get an opinion from him today.
> He was waiting for me outside my day program. He
> appeared to be really down in the dumps. He had been
> trying to call me this week but was using an incorrect
> #, so we hadn't talked in several days.
>
> His immediate problem was that he had no money and wanted to
> cancel our plans. When he had his stroke several
> years ago, his wife gained control of his assets
> and forced him out of their home. He had owned a
> business, employing 40 people, and was comfortable
> financially. Now his wife still controls the finances
> and gives him no money. Social security benefits are his
> only income. He has physical handicaps from his stroke
> and can only perform menial tasks, thus no ability
> to earn his own money.
>
> I told him that dinner & the movie would be my treat.
> I, myself, was pretty low today but just being with
> him makes me feel good. I tried to cheer him up,
> actually got him to laugh a bit, and he enjoyed
> the movie. I asked if he needed my company tonight,
> because I was concerned about his low mood, but he said
> he was tired and wanted to go home and go to bed.
> I asked if he needed money for food or gasoline but
> he refused. I'm angry at myself for not being more
> insistant about that, but he does have a son & a
> daughter who live near him and who are very supportive.
>
> When we were leaving the movie, I told him he should
> zip up his jacket, because it was cold & windy. He
> replied that he couldn't (he has lost all function of
> his right arm and hand). I zipped his jacket for
> him and he thanked me. I told him to never be
> afraid to ask for my assistance. His eyes filled
> with tears. I'm worried about him and will probably
> call him tomorrow to make sure he's Ok.
>
> We did not hug tonight, but I held his hand for
> a minute or two before we parted. This is a new
> experience for me. I'm feeling down and very needy,
> but being able to help him, trying to get him
> to smile, to listen to him express his problems
> and to just be there for him makes me feel good
> and worthy. It also takes my mind off my own
> problems. I've lost the urgency to speak about
> sexuality. He and I both need to work on getting
> well, I think we will remain friends for a long
> time.
>
> harry
>
>Glad things went well. I hope they continue to...
This is the end of the thread.
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