Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 18:42:06
In reply to I read it differently » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on January 5, 2006, at 17:22:40
Hey. I do understand what you mean (at least I think I do..)
But I think problems with the 'tough love' approach have come up before (Chemist springs to mind...)
I think...
The trouble comes because...
A lot of the academic writing is not civil.
Academic papers write about people with BPD displaying...
Manipulative intent
Attention seeking behaviour
etc etc
And the trouble with those...
Is that they ARE judgements.
They attribute malevolent motivation / intent to the person.
They say that the person has that conscious intention and that it is that conscious intention that leads to their behaviour.But intent must be assessed... And not assumed...
And the trouble with assessing intent...
Is that oftentimes the person comes to see their own intentions in the way that others do.
They internalise their judgements.
They judge themself.
And ultimately... That is unhelpful.
Ultimately... That tends to lead to INCREASED distress and no reduction in the unhelpful behaviours.Deneb only started talking about 'manipulative intent' AFTER reading about BPD online...
I noticed that...
And while I appreciate that Larry was simply adopting Deneb's chosen words (and was not intending to judge her) the point is that Deneb was being uncivil to herself because she has started to internalise the uncivil judgements that exist in the psychological / psychiatric literature.
Those judgements...
Hurt me a great deal.
How can one internalise those and like oneself?
How can one internalise those and have any self respect?I struggled with those judgements... I struggled with my self image... I struggled with how I should view myself (in a way that was both true and helpful to me) for a number of years... And the thing that helped me the most with that... Was Linehan.
Those judgements come from counter-transference (in a clinical context).
When a clinician says 'that is a manipulative thing to do'...
That is the point where the little bell is rung in peer supervision to indicate that the clinician is viewing the client in a way that is doubly unhelpful.
Firstly, it is unhelpful because the client will only internalise that...
Secondly, it is unhelpful because the clinician is likely to feel very frustrated indeed if they view the clients behaviour in that way... And that typically results in... Lashing out at the client...Linehan counters this unhelpful dialectic by maintaining that people with BPD aren't more manipulative than people without BPD. In fact... If anything people with BPD need to learn to get BETTER at learning to manipulate other people. They need to learn behaviour that they can display that is more likely to facilitate helpful responses / helping behaviours from others.
Sorry... But this issue is a personal bug bear of mine...
I also think that one can post a 'tough love' kind of post that is within civility guidelines...I think...
I am getting fairly good at doing that?
(Just as one example...)
?
Linehan says that instead of saying 'that is a manipulative thing to do' what one really should say is 'I feel manipulated when you do that'. What that does... Is it distinguishes between the behaviour, and the clincians emotional response to that behaviour. It brings it to the clinicians attention that the manipulative bit is their own emotional response rather than anything intrinsic to the persons behaviour.
And that... Allows them to explore their own emotional response and come to see that other interpretations are possible...
Sometimes other interpretations can be tricky...
That is when one needs to walk away.
And hopefully...
SOmeone else is able to hit apon a non-judgemental one...
poster:alexandra_k
thread:595104
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060102/msgs/595569.html