Posted by bozeman on March 1, 2003, at 3:41:25
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH? » bozeman, posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 0:03:34
> What IS it that attracts a girl to a guy?????
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____________________________________I wish it were a simple answer. But if it were, you probably wouldn't be asking the question, right? :-)
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> Actually come to think of it Jack Nicholson is not particularly handsome in the traditional sense and women seem to adore him. Do you think women would still have liked him even if he wasn't a rich and famous movie star?
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____________________________________You're right, he's not. But he radiates a "confidence/cockiness" that some women find irresistible. If he had that same air about him, many women would definitely still find him attractive, even without the rich and famous part. Then again, some are interested *only* in the rich and famous part, and wouldn't be caught dead with him if he weren't. Some women will think he needs a nurturing "home base" of a gentle, supportive partner to balance his cutthroat, fast-paced world of entertainment, and that they can give that to him. Some women really do find "bad boys" exciting. Some women try to save and "reform" bad boys. And, somewhere, there are probably women who would like him just the way he is, for who he is, think he's plenty attractive, and wouldn't even know he's an actor.
I admit that, in the ignorance of my youth, I also found that particular "cocky attitude" attractive. But as I've "matured", my tastes have changed. I have found that men of that "cocky" type often want a woman to worship and look up to them -- and others want one to argue and quarrel with them, as they enjoy the adrenaline of the fight, and the safety of knowing they can make up afterward. I don't do well in either scenario for long, so that type of man no longer appeals to me.
Some women (and men, for that matter) seem to define their self-worth by the characteristics of the mate they attract. I find this very sad, as 1) the characteristics they seem to value most are temporary and fleeting as outward beauty, which ultimately fades for all of us, and 2) that people think so little of themselves that they define their success by outward status symbols in the first place, whether a "trophy mate'", a certain automobile, or whatever.
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> Do you think charisma and a sparkle in the eye are more important than looks?
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____________________________________Do I think so? ABSOLUTELY!!!! Charisma, sparkle in the eye, gentle touch, expressive voice -- What good would looks even be, without these things? (But not all women will agree.)
The greatest percentage of humans, by far, are average-looking, in a purely visual sense. A small percentage are really, exceptionally well proportioned/attractive/ (pick your favorite adjective here), and a small percentage are at the opposite spectrum, with an imbalance of proportion or features that most would not find visually appealing. In my book, the "attractiveness" of the vast majority of us in the "middle" ground consists more of who we are than how we look. (I am thinking at least 80 percent, and perhaps as much as 95 percent, of people are in this middle category)
How this has manifested in my life is that the first impression (visual) is almost always supplanted later by my overall impression formed after I get to know the person (that is, unless there's a very close match between who they are *inside* and who they are *outside*.) Someone who, at first glance, seemed to be a real "knockout", I scarcely notice later, once I spend enough time around him to find out he's a self-involved, shallow, insensitive rube who expects women to fall all over him and treats them with no courtesy or respect. He literally becomes less attractive to me, visually, because my *knowing* him, who he is, repulses me so much that it affects how I see him. I'll look at him later and think, "Well, he's not all that, I wonder why he thinks he is?" when my visual-only impression initially agreed with his self-assessment.
Conversely, an "average-looking" man will, over time, become most attractive to me, once I know him well enough to appreciate his depth, humor, sensitivity, gentleness, strength, intelligence, loyalty, etc. My respect for his character and trust in his behavior will overshadow my "first impression" of his physical appearance, and later it will never cross my mind that he might not be *the* most attractive man on earth, because, to me, he is. Because I've grown to appreciate who he is, not just what he looks like, which is all you have to go on in the first split-second you see someone. This is why, if I ever do feel that "Wow, what a hunk!" feeling, my impulse is actually to run like hell, because it almost always results in great disappointment later, when I know who he really is, even if I'm not romantically interested in the man, and have no interest in being so involved.
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> PLease be BRUTALLY honest here. This is something I've been pondering over for years and have never really had the opportunity to fully and honestly discuss with anyone. Anyone I ask has simply been too nice to want to hurt my feelings with the truth. And I want to know the TRUTH.
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____________________________________I have always been puzzled by this. Even though I would not intentionally hurt you, and given that one should be tactful (and often gentle) even when being direct, how can the "truth" hurt anyone's feelings? Isn't it when we place conditions and expectations for a particular answer, and don't get it, that we experience disappointment? It is seldom the truthfulness (or lack of) in the answer itself . . .
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> And as for therapists whenever I ask them, they always pussyfoot around the topic. They are too afraid to be brutally honest or to even be a little bit honest with there patients (at least the ones I've dealt with)
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____________________________________One of the "gifts" of ADD for me has been learning to think on "multiple tracks" at once (once you figure out how to do it without losing all of them.) So, in a way, I've done as much thinking in my life as four or five people. In my experience, most people just don't think about these kinds of things -- they are REactive to events in their lives, instead of being PROactive and choosing the path they want. Being who I am has made relationships easy to create, but somewhat difficult to sustain. This has given me much opportunity to ponder the hows and whys of how people couple and uncouple, which perhaps even some therapists have not explored as fully in their own minds. I don't think that textbook notations and real-life understanding translate the same way into explaining life-experiences in a way that will benefit either a client, or a friend.
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> First a bit of background about me. I suffer from social anxiety as my primary diagnosis. I have a brother who has never had to try with women. I mean he's had extremely attractive girls approach him at Pubs and Clubs and practically try to drag him into bed without even having had a decent conversation with him. Yet no matter how hard I try these same girls never even seem to notice me. This has confused and confounded me me all my life.
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____________________________________Paradoxically, many girls (and guys, for that matter) seem oblivious to both reality and sensibility when they are "on the hunt." The girls you speak of most likely chase after your brother *because* he doesn't try to get their attention -- at least, not directly. Nothing will make a girl (or guy) of that type more interested in capturing your attention, than the combination of aloof disinterest and smooth self-confidence (that Jack Nicholson cockiness thing again.) I'll bet your brother is at ease around these women, not necessarily the life of the party (though that could work in this scenario), and he does not show any outward signs of social anxiety (even if he were to feel it.) It's the old "let them chase you until you catch them" thing, and it works irresistibly on a certain type of person, usually the younger, more immature, and more insecure types (of all ages and both genders. :-)
Even more maddeningly, it doesn't matter *why* your brother is not chasing after these girls -- because they simply don't interest him, aren't his type, he's too shy to approach them, even if he's gay, or just married and loyal to his wife -- the fact that he appears secure, somewhat available, non-threatening, and just disinterested enough, will drive that type of girl into a seductive frenzy, trying to beat out all the other girls who would do the same. It's pure jungle biology, not some mysterious secret appeal. She wants to get him before the next girl does. I know it doesn't make sense, logically, but we're not talking about logic, are we?
A girl of this type is actually turned off by a man who approaches her honestly, with respect and dignity, and tries to get to know her. It's not a rejection of him personally, it's that the two are "playing different games, with different rules", and the two don't mix. She's playing the "dating" game (short term goal = conquest tonight), he's playing the "mating" game (longer term goal = seeing her again after tonight.) I'm not saying that all she's interested in is sex, though for some women this is definitely true. I'm saying she's caught in a game of power and control, of defining herself by her "conquests", whether they end up being sexual encounters or not. If she dominates his attention for the entire evening then she "won" her affirmation points for the day. For a girl of this type, a man who is "harder to get" is "worth more points" than one who is easily approachable, or who approaches her.
Again, we're not talking about logic, and we're probably not talking about anybody you'd actually be interested in once you got to know them. I'm just trying to explain to you why a perfectly wonderful, attractive, "nice" guy can get shunned repeatedly by women in certain situations. Unfortunately, being shunned by even one woman can chip away at your self confidence, making the likelihood of getting shunned by the next even higher (these girls can smell fear a mile away, and the smell of blood in the water makes them crazy.)
All the same can be applied in reverse to men as well, by the way. Men are often put off by a woman who seems too easily approachable, like it wasn't "hard" enough of a battle to be worth much to win her attention. Ridiculous, I know, but it's jungle stuff, again, not logic.
So it's not that you are unappealing to women. It's that having any degree of social anxiety, which you do, makes you not the type of man who will appeal to the type of women who tend to "hunt" at clubs and pubs. You have a much greater chance of meeting someone who will notice and talk to you, and share your interests and want to spend time with you, at the library, volunteering at a local animal shelter, or in a yoga class (legitimate common interests -- you can't beat it for an ice-breaker. :-)
As you can see, I ponder this stuff at great length. (Experience is a great teacher, and I have my share of failure experiences to draw upon. :-) But it's very late here and I must get to sleep. We'll chat more after you have a chance to digest this part.
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> Really looking forward to any comments.
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> warm regards
> bluedog
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____________________________________Never ask me a question unless you actually want an answer! <chuckle> Because if I don't have one, I may set two or three of those multiple mind-tracks working on it and find one!
So, as direct as I can be: Is tall and broad-shouldered a good thing? Yes, especially to a tall woman, it is good -- but not necessarily required. Is "handsome" a requirement? No, and it's often it's a detriment (at least, in my book.) Does personality matter more than looks? You bet it does! But someone who's neurotically insecure about their looks, either way, won't work either. The *most* attractive people are unconscious of their appeal. If you're going to be physically attractive, you have to act like you don't know that you are, but be absolutely secure and comfortable with who you are. That's the key, as I see and experience it.
Warm regards back at you, bluedog
And a warm hug too.Going to bed now -- while you're experiencing that gorgeous sunny day . . . talk to you again soon.
bozeman
poster:bozeman
thread:204787
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030223/msgs/204954.html