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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by starlight on October 3, 2003, at 12:20:46
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » starlight, posted by BarbaraCat on October 2, 2003, at 15:44:40
I have compassion for my dad as well, though find his lack of control inexcusable since the abuse started when I was about 3 years old. I think I've said this before, but I think there's a likely correlation between Bipolar disorder and abusive childhoods. It seems to me that being in a constant state of fear would be enough to really throw off the chemistry of the brain. So if the genetic tendency exists, that's probably enough to throw the switch.
I have an Aunt who has severe bipolar disorder and a serious substance abuse problem as well, which I find extremely disturbing since I enjoy experimenting some - I'd never do anything like meth, coke or heroin, but I've been known to mix a little muscle relaxant, pot and a glass of wine. I'm pretty good at moderating, but sometimes fear that as I age it could get worse, of course it could get better as well and is only to a small degree. I think that's a result though of still dealing with the residual effects of having been in a state of fear for so many years (until I was 17 and joined the Air Force).
Starlight
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 3, 2003, at 17:46:27
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by starlight on October 3, 2003, at 12:20:46
I agree about the Bipolar and abuse link. Was your father bipolar? My father was never formally diagnosed by he was close enough for jazz as far as I'm concerned. Out of 8 kids, at least 4 were very disturbed. But it's so difficult to say if it was because of their lousy childhoods or genetics. Nature or nurture, the age-old question. I think about our cats whom I love so much. The idea of hurting them in any way is horrible, totally repugnant to me. I would lay down my life than willingly hurt them. I just don't understand the kind of psychological torment that could allow that kind of perversion.
Yeah, our brains aren't meant to take that kind of ongoing stress. It clobbers the hippocampus and amygdala which keeps the fear response wired in. My naturopath sees alot of fibromyagia patients like myself and in her estimatation, over 90% have all had childhood abuse and suffer from ongoing PTSD. Our bodies don't like it either and something's gonna give sooner or later.
As far as your aunt's abuse problems, she probably didn't have access to the help we have today for our disorders. They had, what, valium, ECT, Elavil - whoopie. No one went to a 'shrink' for fear of the stigma, and if they did what good would it do. So self medication was about it for relieving stress. I don't subscribe to the 'alcoholism and drug addiction is a disease' concept. One can form a physiological dependence on it and at that point it gets harder and harder. But helpless? Nah, there was always a point to turn back before it got too far out of control. Blaming it on genetics allows a person to roll over too easily. Maybe not a popular sentiment, but it's mine.
The fact is that substances are fun, feel good, and are the most reliable source of an instant lifting of mood. If only I didn't feel like run over dog turd the next day I'd do it alot more. I've had some incredibly transcendant experiences on ecstacy and acid, absolutely lovely buzzes on Vicodin wine and pot, but ye gods, do I pay for it, and it's getting increasingly not worth the pain and self recrimination. The thing that's helping me clean up my act is reading about the effects of substance abuse on my brain and body. Not pretty. As I get older and deal with fibro and bipolar depression, it becomes clear that I have some choices to make if I want to pursue my goal of health and well-being. - Barbara
Posted by starlight on October 3, 2003, at 19:07:39
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » starlight, posted by BarbaraCat on October 3, 2003, at 17:46:27
My father had psychotic breaks, but he's never been formally diagnosed either. He's also not my real father. My real father is a very low key tolerant type of person, which is so much more like who I am that it's kind of strange. It makes interesting discussion for nature vs. nurture.
starlight
Posted by btnd on October 12, 2003, at 18:38:18
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » silmarilone, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 12:37:08
> Its primary action is to release the stores of dopamine into the synaptic cleft. There is no reuptake mechanism as with SSRI's, so when the dopamine is used up, the natural stores are depleted and each successive dose is like beating a dying horse.
At doses prescribed for ADHD (Adderall 20-30 mg) there is no DRI involved, just the release of newly synthesized norepinephrine and dopamine. But once you go higher on the scale, and start using "recreational" amounts - amphetamines become potent NRIs and DRIs (mainly NRI).
> It's an amazingly addictive drug, mostly because of the horrible, awful coming down that impels you to take more just to keep the black depressions at bay.You can use GHB during the comedown from methamphetamine - it does wonders and is much much healthier on your body that another bump. Actually it is beneficial, because at a dose of 4g GHB you get immediate increase in dopamine production, which was depleted during the meth usage. Not to mention other GHB's positive health effects as a recreational drug and a medicine tool.
And also, I'm kinda stunned - why aren't people mentally addicted to amphetamines (I'm not talking particularly of you, just from what I've noticed on the boards), trying to find the cause or remedy to block increasing tolerance of amphetamines and decrease as much as possible neurotoxicity. Those 2 things which I mentioned are covered by few simple and easily obtainable drugs. I'll post more in few days, or you can use search on "NDMA antagonist" "NDMA DXM" "NDMA L-Theanine", if you're interested.
Take care.M
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 12, 2003, at 21:29:51
In reply to Few words on amphetamines addiction, posted by btnd on October 12, 2003, at 18:38:18
> At doses prescribed for ADHD (Adderall 20-30 mg) there is no DRI involved, just the release of newly synthesized norepinephrine and dopamine.
**Any theories why newly synthesized NE and D aren't released naturally, i.e., why do ADHD folks lack this production?
>
> You can use GHB during the comedown from methamphetamine - it does wonders and is much much healthier on your body that another bump.**Agreed. The FDA has nicely protected us from ourselves and made GHB a class, what 2 drug? So it's not that easy to come across anymore. I used to use it as a sleeping aid and had much deeper more restful sleep than anything prescribed by my docs.
>I'll post more in few days, or you can use search on "NDMA antagonist" "NDMA DXM" "NDMA L-Theanine", if you're interested.
**Very interested. I don't do amphetamines anymore because my brain chemistry has become very sensitized. But I am curious about the chemistry you speak of. And who knows, if there's a healthy touch-down, I might go for it.
- Barbara
Posted by btnd on October 13, 2003, at 14:55:24
In reply to Re: Few words on amphetamines addiction » btnd, posted by BarbaraCat on October 12, 2003, at 21:29:51
> > At doses prescribed for ADHD (Adderall 20-30 mg) there is no DRI involved, just the release of newly synthesized norepinephrine and dopamine.
>
> **Any theories why newly synthesized NE and D aren't released naturally, i.e., why do ADHD folks lack this production?
>None that I know of. Probably genes (brain chemistry/structure)
> > You can use GHB during the comedown from methamphetamine - it does wonders and is much much healthier on your body that another bump.
>
> **Agreed. The FDA has nicely protected us from ourselves and made GHB a class, what 2 drug? So it's not that easy to come across anymore. I used to use it as a sleeping aid and had much deeper more restful sleep than anything prescribed by my docs.GHB, which by the way has many health effects, is now Schedule I. Meth is Schedule II. Xyrem on the other hand is Schedule III (?!). The whole situation with GHB is plain crazy (like many actions done by FDA). For a full picture take a look at xyrem.us
> >I'll post more in few days, or you can use search on "NDMA antagonist" "NDMA DXM" "NDMA L-Theanine", if you're interested.
>
> **Very interested. I don't do amphetamines anymore because my brain chemistry has become very sensitized. But I am curious about the chemistry you speak of. And who knows, if there's a healthy touch-down, I might go for it.Yes, it actually does work. Proper NDMA (glutamate) antagonist and Adderall/Dexedrine - will prevent poop-out.
Posted by Clayton on October 31, 2003, at 19:04:49
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » silmarilone, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 12:37:08
Not much to add except that I agree and think that amphetamines are probably the most pernicious, addictive and damaging of all drugs ever invented. Coming down is worse than hell and the addictive craving is insatiable.
I "predated" crystal meth and somehow, thank god, missed the whole cocaine scene. But I swallowed a lot of meth tabs ("whites") for about three years in my twenties. I only quit because my supplier moved away.
Right about the time I stopped swallowing pills, I developed GAD, severe SAD, horrific, unrelenting insomnia and an a amotivational syndrome that continues to this day (damage to the "reward system").
I read the reputable medical literature and I am aware of the permanent damage that is done to brain from amphetamine use. It is freightening but I have to face it. My psychiatric symptoms are well within the normal range of behavoral dyfunctions that results from the psysiological harm. And I have come through much better than some. Those folks you mentioned who are missing teeth are a good example.
I am lucky that I have found a good combination of psychotropics that somewhat diminish the dysfunctional behavior and rending mood problems. They are Paxil and Remaron, used synergistically (Paxil alone was almost worthless).
By the way, my father was a depressed and vicious alchoholic and I inherited the addictive predisposition with a vengence.
I cope as well as I am able and am always looking for ways to improve. I was a child of the sixties, far less wild than many who got caught up in that drug scene. I try not to regret it. When all else fails and I am feeling my worst, I try, at a minimum, to exercise my free will to behave ethically and with kindness to others.
Any suggestions are very welcome!
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 14:46:53
In reply to Meth, Brain Damage, Dysfunction and Life, posted by Clayton on October 31, 2003, at 19:04:49
Hello Clayton,
Interesting post. I have moments, hell, years, when I despair of what was lost during my unconscious youth. We think we're going to live forever, or at the least never have to pay the piper. I read an entry from my journal 35 years ago while rushing on meth 'I don't care if I have to give up 10 years of my life. This feeling is worth it!' Of course, those 10 years are now drawing nearer and it was definitely NOT worth it.We can only wonder about our symptoms being the result of burning out our brains or whether we'd get it anyway or to what extent. Looking at my father's violent/depressive legacy I don't think I would have escaped. No question that I added insult to injury and suffered biological damage by the stupid things I did. No body is designed to rev that high for that long. But I can't really kick myself too hard. I was a young inexperienced kid always seeking experiences, I was self medicating, and as you mentioned, absolutely in thrall to the most addictive substance I've ever experienced. The fact that you and I were able to crawl out of that pit of craving says alot about us.
Here's what I keep coming back to when I think the damage might be permanent and continuously torturing me. We're living and growing beings, constantly recycling cells. Given the right environment our organs will thrive, even damaged ones. Our neurons regenerated long ago and will continue to do so as long as they're given a fighting chance. Yes, there is brain damage, but that has more to do with tissue death from lack of oxygen than from a chemical assault. Although our drug use was very unhealthy and may have burnt our receptors, they've since adapted and regenerated. I think it's more to do with learning how to express a biological propensity to what society calls 'mood disorder'. I'm positive I got a priceless education in how to have spectacular bipolar mixed states nightmares from bad acid trips. I learned what black depressions feel like from coming down off meth. These things can be unlearned, however, or even better, looked at pragmatically as food for wisdom and empathy. Cells keep dying and being reborn no matter how badly we beat ourselves up. You look at some former 'hopeless' drunks who have survived cirhosis and worse and have gone on to feel, act, and look just great. Life has a way and wants to survive and thrive.
In many ways, I feel that at 52 my brain is finally coming into it's own. I feel clearer and more focussed than ever in my life, I have hope. That's saying alot considering the depths of a very disabling mood disorder which has been one of crushing despair where I thought I could not survive another day. It's taken alot of work and getting into the habit of choosing to treat my brain and body with honor and love. But very gratifying to know that I do have control over what goes into my body - heck, it's the only thing I have any control over at all - and that it's paying off. So please don't chuck it all to some fatalistic belief that there's no hope. As long as you're still drawing breath, there's hope no matter what anyone says. Here's to getting better and better, eh? - Barbara
Posted by Clayton on November 4, 2003, at 12:54:01
In reply to Re: Meth, Brain Damage, Dysfunction and Life » Clayton, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 14:46:53
BarbaraCat,
Thank you for your kind, empatic and very optimistic reply to my post. You made my day!
By the way, my father was a violent alchoholic, too. I also will never know the ultimate causes of my afflictions.
I strive to stay positive and usually succceed. I look at my problems as no different than anyone elses. Some people are born with horrible congenital defects, some low IQ. Life is not fair and we must play the hand dealt us. We CHOOSE to be happy and productive despite any impediments we may have. When all else fails, and we are at the nadir of depression, we still have a choice: to say "yes" or "no" to life. Despite debilitaing emotional states,we still have the freedom to choose to do right or wrong; to behave as ethical human beings and cling to our values. Above all, we can choose, no matter how badly we feel, to be kind to other hunam beings as you have been to me. More than anything else, thinking about the well-being of others instead of embrassing my own mysery, has pulled meout of the wirst of depresions.Thank you again ffor your wonderful response.
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 5, 2003, at 12:52:04
In reply to BarbaraCat - Meth, Brain Damage, » BarbaraCat, posted by Clayton on November 4, 2003, at 12:54:01
And thank you, Clayton, for your kind words. We've all been through alot, some more than others, and hopefully we've learned alot because of the enforced growth of pain, if we're open to it. I know I'm working on patience and trust - biggies for me. I think of my earlier years which were pretty shallow and self centered and defiant - a little juvenile delinquent who thought only of herself and her immediate gratifications. Fine for a very young child but not serving for an adult.
A severe mood disorder has presented the choice to get a grip, get a heart, or die. When I'm not feeling too crazy I appreciate the crazy wisdom behind it all. When I asked a spiritual teacher why there was so much suffering and pain and depression he said 'We've come here to learn compassion. What better way to learn this than to soften the heart around pain and recognize it and the world as our teacher?' Wise words that I've often come back to when my inner and outer worlds got very rough.
You mention the damage to the brain. I also take heart in what Deepak Chopra says about the quantum field and how the intelligence and consciousness displayed at the atomic level presents infinite possibilities to us. The subtle fields in and around us are not static and can morph and evolve into anything we can imagine. Just because we don't know how to do this yet doesn't mean it's not in our power.
There are so many miracles and so much grandeur to life. When we're depressed and sick we get cut off from the awareness of that splendour, we only see the inside of a static filled grey box. But that splendour is there anyway. Sometimes I remember to look at my screen shots of the Hubble pictures of galaxies and star nurseries and I remember and think 'ah, yes, there is more here than my pain and confusion.' It doesn't take it away but it does give me something to hold onto, like a warm hand in my mind. So, good luck, Clayton, and keep in touch. - Barbara
Posted by CraigD on November 20, 2003, at 1:10:51
In reply to Re: BarbaraCat - Meth, Brain Damage, » Clayton, posted by BarbaraCat on November 5, 2003, at 12:52:04
I managed to stop smoking meth after about a year and two trips to the hospital. I was only able to stop after stopping takings Celexa. It gave me big cravings which I never had before and don't have now.
I was proud -- almost smug- for having the strength to stop. Wish I had earlier. Six months after my last hit I found out the big party left me with HIV.
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 21, 2003, at 10:31:51
In reply to I stopped Meth and it's still killing me..., posted by CraigD on November 20, 2003, at 1:10:51
Incredible courage to say that. Even with that disease, you can realize more blessings now than ever before. That's a time bomb that could drop on many of us. Prayers going out to you.
KDi in TX> I managed to stop smoking meth after about a year and two trips to the hospital. I was only able to stop after stopping takings Celexa. It gave me big cravings which I never had before and don't have now.
>
> I was proud -- almost smug- for having the strength to stop. Wish I had earlier. Six months after my last hit I found out the big party left me with HIV.
Posted by cookie0876 on November 22, 2003, at 11:59:26
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me... » CraigD, posted by KimberlyDi on November 21, 2003, at 10:31:51
Hi, you guys. I smoked way too much ice. I haven't done it in 8 mos. now. I feel like I'm constantly on speed now even though I don't do it at all. It's weird. I am jittery all day every day - on edge and have weird vibrations all over my body. Did y'all ever have sleep paralysis accompanied by vibrations and a roaring in your head? I had that happen to me and so did my boyfriend - we figured it was from being sleep deprived for so many days and blew it off. I get it now, though, even though I don't do dope anymore. I am taking Wellbutrin and Seroquel - not working yet (6 weeks). I've taken stuff for bipolar too (zyprexa, depakote, gabitril) and everything freaked me out and put me in a panic. My dr. thinks I'm experiencing mania - funny how I was in no way bipolar before doing speed. I am 100% positive my symptoms are related to drug use, and I pray that in time my symptoms will go away. Any advice would be appreciated. I am desperately hoping someone will read this post who also has these strange seizure like vibrations which are truly driving me insane. I just cry and cry when I feel them. My boyfriend can't handle me complaining about it and has left me because I changed (he was the one who gave me the speed in the first place but it's my fault). I used to be independant and self-sufficient and I can't handle life stresses anymore while I am dealing with all these physical symptoms.
Posted by cookie0876 on November 22, 2003, at 20:08:16
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me..., posted by cookie0876 on November 22, 2003, at 11:59:26
I am so excited I jushad to submit one more post! :) My mom made me see an MD today - not a psychiatrist. He told me that my symptoms are more like partial complex seizures than anxiety attacks or mania. He said he didn't think I was bipolar. I told him about my tingly tongue and vibrations. He gave me Ativan and a referral to a neurologist. Thank God. Do y'all know anyone who has suffered seizures after doing ice?
Posted by Festus on November 23, 2003, at 21:58:29
In reply to I stopped Meth and it's still killing me..., posted by CraigD on November 20, 2003, at 1:10:51
Man,you got a hard lesson learned,Craig,I,m damn sorry for ya.I don,t care if some smug poster comes along and"Well,if you play with fire,you gonna git burned",does that judgemental trip,or you,ll get a few like the kid that posted right after the first gal did,totally oblivious to what you had said in your post,askin for sympathy for her"tingly hands"from too much Ice,but for the most of us I speak:You have a lotta guts and pure courage to come into a forum and lay down that kind of testimony,no cryin or pleadin,just a HUGE warning and reminder,to all of those out there that DO play with fire!Hang in there,Bro!Festus
Posted by cookie0876 on November 24, 2003, at 18:41:39
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me..., posted by Festus on November 23, 2003, at 21:58:29
I wasn't totally oblivious. I just didn't know what to say. He is not asking for sympathy. He made a statement. I'm not asking for sympathy either. I'm asking for answers or if someone has the same symptoms as me. I feel bad for Craig. I am sorry that happened to him, but I don't think that is what he is looking for. I never shot up. I am thankful for that. But, my boyfriend used to and I could very well have been in the same boat.
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 25, 2003, at 11:35:11
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me..., posted by Festus on November 23, 2003, at 21:58:29
Why did you slam the girl with the tingly hands? Do we all stop posting our experiences and concerns just because one unfortunate person beats us in the "i have it the worst" contest? Your support for Craig was admirable but shouldn't have been at the expense of another innocent poster.
> Man,you got a hard lesson learned,Craig,I,m damn sorry for ya.I don,t care if some smug poster comes along and"Well,if you play with fire,you gonna git burned",does that judgemental trip,or you,ll get a few like the kid that posted right after the first gal did,totally oblivious to what you had said in your post,askin for sympathy for her"tingly hands"from too much Ice,but for the most of us I speak:You have a lotta guts and pure courage to come into a forum and lay down that kind of testimony,no cryin or pleadin,just a HUGE warning and reminder,to all of those out there that DO play with fire!Hang in there,Bro!Festus
Posted by cookie0876 on November 25, 2003, at 22:04:29
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me... » Festus, posted by KimberlyDi on November 25, 2003, at 11:35:11
Thanks, Kim. Craig, I'm sorry if you feel I was insensitive. I didn't mean to be. By the way, Festus, I don't just have tingly hands. I have what might be partial complex seizures caused by some brain damage from doing too much ice. I realize it would be worse to have HIV and I should be thankful for that, but that doesn't mean I want to live with my symptoms for the rest of my life. Surely you've posted here talking about your symptoms. Were you accused of just wanting smpathy?
Posted by Festus on November 27, 2003, at 0:53:03
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me..., posted by cookie0876 on November 25, 2003, at 22:04:29
Ya,ll are right,Cookie and Kim,I had no call to respond in that manner.I totally,sincerely apoligize to you,Cookie.A beloved family member recently died in similar fashion,I ain,t dealin well with it.I,m sure mighty sorry,Cookie,I hope you,ll be OK and be good to yourself,take care of your immune system so them dang germs don,t git ya,some of em can kill.Festus(alias"Stoopid")
Posted by cookie0876 on November 27, 2003, at 11:54:32
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me..., posted by Festus on November 27, 2003, at 0:53:03
Apology accepted, Festus. I'll try to keep that advice in mind as I smoke this damn cigarette. :)
Posted by Festus on November 27, 2003, at 21:27:58
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me..., posted by cookie0876 on November 27, 2003, at 11:54:32
Thanks,Cookie,I appreciate that.I had came back and looked over this thread again and after re-reading Claytons post,then yours,then my goofy mess,I felt like a half-inch tall.I ain,t usually an idiot,but I suppose we all have those bleaked-out,wierd reaction moments.I don,t know if you,ve done this yet,but it might not hurt to consider looking at some Neuro sites or even a Neuro Doc.That tingling and numbness,trembling stuff sounds like Neurological trouble.It could very well be from what you,d been doing for the past several months,then again,it can cause you some symptomatic anxiety wondering what it really could be!If it persists,you might wanna talk to a neuro Dr.Let us know how you get along!Festus
Posted by Pamela Lynn on November 29, 2003, at 11:57:06
In reply to ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by silmarilone on September 4, 2003, at 20:10:45
I always hear about the damage that Meth. does to the brain but no one really talks about what it can do to the heart. Don't forget that it can not only damage parts of your brain (that may never repair) but it can cause arrhythmias in your heart.
Take it from me....don't do this stuff. I know it is hard especially if one has an 'addictive' personality but don't do it. The damage that this (and other stims.) drug can do to your MAJOR organs can kill you-----even years after you stop.
Pamela
Posted by panic_attack on November 30, 2003, at 12:23:11
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me..., posted by cookie0876 on November 22, 2003, at 11:59:26
OMG.. I have a very similiar experience. I overdosed on cocaine a little over 2 years ago. I beleive the cocaine was FILLED with speed!!! My life has not been the same ever since. I have bad panic attacks/anxiety... etc. Doctors are trying to tell me that I am bipolar. BUT HOW? I wasnt like this BEFORE the drug use. I was FINE! The drugs screwed me all up. I have so many symptons and weird shit that happens to me that I cant even list them... way too many. I always feel like crap and shake.. tremble.. i have a twitch in my finger.. think the speed/cocaine did some neurological damage. That might be the issue with you too. I have tried almost every medication in the world and have found that Lexapro works pretty well for me. Anyways.. it has been over 2 years and my symptons have NOT gone away :( . Im probally gonna have to remain on medicationm for the rest of my life. Sad but true.
Posted by CraigD on December 2, 2003, at 11:46:21
In reply to Re: I stopped Meth and it's still killing me... » cookie0876, posted by panic_attack on November 30, 2003, at 12:23:11
Craig here:
I don't normally post on this part of Psychobabble so I'm just reading all your posts.
Thanks for your thoughts, although I was not seeking sympathy.
To clarify, I never shot up either. I had wild, indescriminate, unprotected sex on Crystal -mixed also with booze and Celexa.
I am lucky in that these days HIV is treatable. But Crystal is SO effective at taking over your pleasure centers that sex is now dry white toast without it, and just thinking about meth floods me with desire and anxiety wherever I am.
Although I am terrribly depresssed and anxious, I know I cannot start taking Celexa again because that's where the cravings came from to begin with.
All's I can say is you HAVE to stop doing this drug. It will ruin you well before it kills you.
Posted by maryhelen on December 4, 2003, at 22:29:40
In reply to Re: Few words on amphetamines addiction, posted by btnd on October 13, 2003, at 14:55:24
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