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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by baseball55 on April 23, 2013, at 20:15:51
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Phil, posted by gadchik on April 23, 2013, at 15:42:59
> i think there is no drug or therapist that can wipe out what happens to us as children. it's imprinted on our brains until we die. that's just the way it is. i will sometimes see a very caring mother or father and think, what if i were raised by that one? i imagine my life unfolding w/o the fears and sadness, and i see myself as bold and successful.
For me, therapy helped a lot. I didn't start therapy until I was 49 and by then, things had started to fall apart. But also what helped me was raising a child. I was a good mother. I knew exactly what not to do. Whatever my parents did, I did not do. One time a colleague of mine said (I'm not sure why) - you must be such a great mother. I wish I could bottle you up and sell you as like great mother in a bottle.
I don't know why she thought this, but I was a great mother.
Posted by gadchik on April 24, 2013, at 5:56:51
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice, posted by baseball55 on April 23, 2013, at 20:15:51
Raising a child is what has helped me most too. You give them what was missing. I am very pleased with how I raised my son, and he is very confident, and happy.I couldnt live with myself if I screwed that up.
Posted by Twinleaf on April 24, 2013, at 7:21:12
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » baseball55, posted by gadchik on April 24, 2013, at 5:56:51
My experience is very silmiliar. I raised a happy and confident son, and feel that I was almost mothering and healing myself in the process. Therapy has also been extremely helpful; in the transference feelings I have had for my therapist, he always feels like the mother I didn't have. It doesn't matter at all that he's a man! I have just made him into what I needed. In these emotional, intuitive, non-verbal areas, a good "fit" is so important.
Posted by Phillipa on April 24, 2013, at 9:34:18
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice, posted by Twinleaf on April 24, 2013, at 7:21:12
I did the same raised three kids and my life was dedicated to them. Never focusing on negative behavior also praising the positives. Now that they are grown and gone they don't like me as I got sick and I let them down. I hate me for it. Life was good when we were all close. Phillipa
Posted by Twinleaf on April 24, 2013, at 11:03:01
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice, posted by Phillipa on April 24, 2013, at 9:34:18
I'm so sorry that happened to you. Wouldn't there be chances to mend that rupture? I'm sure that would mean as much to them as it would to you.
I have been very lucky. My son is in his 30's now, but we are still close - this now includes his wonderful wife and two little children.
Posted by gadchik on April 24, 2013, at 11:23:37
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice, posted by Phillipa on April 24, 2013, at 9:34:18
It really makes me sad to hear that P. I wish you could be close again. My son was turning 16 and going into high school when I had my worst breakdown. I thought I ruined our bond. When I got well, I had to really work on our relationship. I knew I let him down by not getting help and just letting myself descend into madness. It was rough,but we managed to become close again. I would like to think that somewhere down deep, our kids always have a soft spot for us to connect to.
Posted by Phillipa on April 24, 2013, at 21:07:30
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Phillipa, posted by gadchik on April 24, 2013, at 11:23:37
I hear from my Son at infrequent intervals. The girls just want nothing to do with me. I write about once a week. No replies. I try. Phillipa
Posted by Twinleaf on April 24, 2013, at 22:32:20
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » gadchik, posted by Phillipa on April 24, 2013, at 21:07:30
This is so sad to hear - I'm really sorry. From what you have written here, you have a lot going for you: you work, exercise, are friendly and supportive of your neighbors. Your problems with anxiety and depression seem on the mild side. Usually, there is at least a part of every child which longs for love and support from a parent. What do you think has gone wrong? Is there anything you might be able to do to correct any misunderstandings they may have? Could you pay them short visits?
Posted by baseball55 on April 25, 2013, at 19:44:01
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Phillipa, posted by Twinleaf on April 24, 2013, at 22:32:20
I'm really sorry about this Phillipa. This is very sad.
When I went through this hellish depression that landed me in the hospital several times and resulted in two close suicide attempts, my daughter, with whom I had been very close, refused to talk to me. She said I destabilized her and she wanted me out of her life for a few years. It was devastating. Fortunately, this was just a short-term reaction and eventually, as I got better, our relationship got better. Now she calls or emails at least once a week. I feel I did a good job raising her. It would really pain me if she stopped communicating. I couldn't understand it, but I know it happens sometimes.
Posted by Twinleaf on April 25, 2013, at 21:10:09
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice, posted by baseball55 on April 25, 2013, at 19:44:01
That must have been so hard. Don't you think these ruptures are caused in large part by fear of losing a beloved person? And also because severe depression causes a parent to be unable to be loving and supportive, so that a child is already in a sense abandoned emotionally?
It's so good to hear that you regained your previous loving relationship as you got better, baseball.. Perhaps I am overly idealistic, but I do believe there is always a strong need and desire to have a loving supportive relationship with parents (and with children), so there can always be reason to hope and work towards things getting better.
I do think that misunderstandings occur: for example, children of depressed parents may genuinely feel unloved and rejected, even though that was never the intent. Having open, honest discussions with children about all these issues can go a long way towards healing ruptures - especially being willing to hear their negative reactions. At least, this was so for me and my son. It feels now as though our connection is stronger than ever because of what happened.
It is so sad and painful to hear that you seem to have a permanent estrangement, Phillipa. It just seems that there is always hope and a chance to make things better. I think our children expect us to be the ones to take more chances when it comes to improving our relationships with them.
Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2013, at 0:40:22
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » baseball55, posted by Twinleaf on April 25, 2013, at 21:10:09
Twinleaf I was packed and ready to go at Christmas time to Florida where they all live not far away. Oldest Daughter had said could stay there for a week. And that way could see Grandaughter, Son, Other Daughter & Grown Grandson. The day after I said doing a "happy dance" that I was happy she was letting us stay. She pulled the rug from under and said no sorry can't stay here. My youngest did offer to let us stay there but have to bring the two pups and she only has a 2 bedroom apartment. So since one dog really doesn't like kids we knew we couldn't stay there. Can't afford to board them or pay a hotel. So trip cancelled. Another example Son called my husband and asked what he could send me for Mother's Day. Since have no taste & smell when Son asked cheesecake my husband said what I'd really like is a Barnes & noble gift card for my nookbook. He said it was a good idea. Today he writes my husband that his wife already ordered cheesecake to be delivered. So what else is one to do? I send presents to them without even a thank you. My Grandson does facebook a thank you to me though. Sounds a bit passive=Aggessive or slap me down? Phillipa
Posted by Twinleaf on April 26, 2013, at 9:25:28
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Twinleaf, posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2013, at 0:40:22
I agree with you - some of this behavior on their part does seem passive- aggressive. As you know, people tend to use this way of dealing with people when they are ambivalent or angry and are not skilled in dealing with these feelings more directly. This is a difficult situation to be caught up in! I do have a couple of questions for you:
What are they really angry about?
Can you encourage them to talk out their feelings more directly? This is the only chance of making things different and more supportive and satisfying.
Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2013, at 18:19:38
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice, posted by Twinleaf on April 26, 2013, at 9:25:28
Because I am not the same as I was when they were younger. People get sick people age. Nothing can do about it. It's life. When the phones don't get picked up and emails go unanswered. Not much left to do. Phillipa
Posted by baseball55 on April 26, 2013, at 19:30:18
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Twinleaf, posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2013, at 18:19:38
I think it's very hard on loved ones when someone becomes depressed/mentally ill. It's not the same as getting physically ill. You change. Your personality changes. You are not emotionally available. If you are suicidal, as I was, you scare people. My daughter was scared for me and scared that I was trying to stay alive for her and she didn't want to feel responsible for my life.
After she let loose with me, then got back in touch, we wrote and talked a lot about this. But I got better, partly due to meds, partly due to therapy. I don't know how we would be if I was still depressed. On the other hand, I think it's unlikely I would still be here if I were still depressed.
Phillipa - I am genuinely sorry about your children. Maybe you could invite them all to your place for a holiday, so you don't have to worry about the dogs. Have a family reunion. Do you have room for them all to stay?
Posted by Twinleaf on April 26, 2013, at 19:44:28
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Twinleaf, posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2013, at 18:19:38
Phillipa, I think this is a distortion. This is how you have often said here that you feel about yourself. You are very young In appearance and attitude, and, anyway, most people are much more accepting of aging, and even see positives in it in terms of experience. I think it is more likely that they appreciate that about you, and would enjoy interacting with you. If they are angry, it's much more likely to be because they feel hurt or rejected in someway by you. For example, I'm not sure, but do you experience social anxiety when you visit, and do not do it as much as you once did?
A wonderful approach might be the one you suggested: developing closer relationships - with your grandchildren - through the social media. This seems to be an area where you are very comfortable, and I would imagine your own children would appreciate the efforts you make. It might eventually lead to similiar relationships with them.
Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2013, at 20:33:05
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice, posted by Twinleaf on April 26, 2013, at 19:44:28
Lets see I sent multiple gifts and never even a thank you. My husband was livid. Last time we were down left the next day as oldest decided first she didn't feel like making Christmas dinner that we were invited for. Didn't bring proper attire she decided we would eat at her boss's home. Went. Then husband & I went for a nice walk as she was still there at bosses and then when she returned we were relaxing at which point she decided we would drive to Disney World the next day. We didn't want to go as leaving for home the next day. So no more abuse. Phillipa
Posted by Twinleaf on April 26, 2013, at 21:30:15
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Twinleaf, posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2013, at 20:33:05
I'm so sorry.
Posted by 2stressed on April 26, 2013, at 21:40:37
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice, posted by Twinleaf on April 26, 2013, at 19:44:28
Hello folks, I am Phillipa's husband and just had to give my perspective on this situation with her children. Hope I am not risking any repercussions for Phillipa by posting but I am using another ISP so I feel that I am in compliance. I felt compelled to chime in as I have seen first hand the way her children (2 out of 3) have ignored her emails, voicemails and FB messages when she has been trying to build a relationship with them or just have a civil "catch-up". To be criticized as the rare response has to hurt and one can only touch a hot stove so many times.
I have seen the power money has on them so that they tolerate abuses from her X because his father is a multi-millionaire and the hope that $$$ will be trickling down the pipe for them means more than love and caring. It really is sad to see that family has to be bought and it pains me to see and experience this as my family is not this way. So reach out and get slapped or ignored for how long??? Rejection is not a healthy environment for anyone either healthy or that has any degree of MI
When she has interacted on FB with the oldest daughter, she was accused of spying...
With her grandson, can't get a current phone# and messages (one liner) are prompted by only son. I can say that the strongest relationship is with her son and that seems to be getting a bit stronger but the daughters are one way streets.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2013, at 14:14:33
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Twinleaf, posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2013, at 20:33:05
Phillipa, as you might know, my relationship with my mother isn't what I would like it to be. I was thinking about that as I read this thread. I'm not sure what to do on my end because my mother only seems to want to hear from me when she needs something from me. I'm not saying I don't understand why. I've certainly contributed to that.
But it is also true in the other direction. I probably don't respond overly well when she does try to reach out to me. I'm trying to think what she could do to broach the distance, should she ever want to. The only thing I can think is that low key would be best. Very short calls avoiding any problem areas in the relationship, just chatty and upbeat.
My advice to you would be to keep expectations nonexistant. If you give a present, do your best to give what they might like, then forget it. If they thank you, great, if they don't then your pleasure will come from the thought that you have done your best to be loving and giving. A gift from love is a wonderful thing, and the pleasure doesn't have to come from the hope of a return (of gratitude or contact). If you make contact with the expectation of any sort of return, you are likely to be hurt and disappointed. And... well... in a relationship full of both obligation and tension, the feel of expectations or the feelings of guilt that come from it, can lead to avoidance on both parts.
You might want to talk to a therapist about possible concrete steps that might help. For example, on thankfully rare occasions my son and I get stuck in a rut where we both are bracing ourselves for a certain reaction from the other. I find it helps to change the steps of our dance. I might tell him that I don't really like where our relationship is at the moment, and express my desire to step back and start over. With him, it has always worked. It might not work with someone older, with a longer history of miscommunications and misunderstandings. But it might be worth a shot, particularly if you have an expert's help in crafting the offer and following through.
Posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2013, at 19:01:04
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2013, at 14:14:33
Dinah one thing I've always done with them is to give and expect nothing in return. I buy cause I want to. Seems my husband feels cause his family is different that I should stop giving. But they are my family and I pay for whatever I give so will continue this. Also to switch gears a bit it's my physical limitations which they do not get. Since can no longer run due to back problems they now are runners which I salute. Or things like walking Disney for a day no can do. Or getting up at 5am always been on a work till 12am schedule so no way can I also get up at the break of dawn like they do. I chose to work this shift many years ago due to the fact that never ever even as a teen was I a morning person. I don't like getting up when dark outside but enjoy working now at ebay at night. Find it relaxing. Also love to be outside during the day. And I can do this. When oldest Daughter had a hairline fx of hip from running yet another half marathon which she does almost weekly. I advised her privately via mail that perhaps she might consider cutting down on mileage. And asked how she was feeling. Of course no response as that is considered criticism. I could go on but won't. Thanks for caring. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2013, at 20:18:21
In reply to Re: Therapy Was Nice » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2013, at 19:01:04
Most important thing my first husband inherited money. He's treated as a King. Although he's ignored them all these years. They stick with the one with the money. Also his Dad was the one with true manic depression. I do feel my Oldest being so successful and being able to go without sleep and all the running is like his Dad's Dad. He built an empire before he had the big manic episode. And he was in his 50's before this functioned hypo and did well. I have a feeling same thing will happen to here. Son is okay. Youngest? Who knows? Phillipa
Posted by Twinleaf on May 3, 2013, at 15:37:29
In reply to Not really a distortion, posted by 2stressed on April 26, 2013, at 21:40:37
In human relationships generally, it's very rare that all the fault is on one side only. You have clearly been hurt badly, Phillipa, and have made many efforts to improve your relationships with your children. I am very sorry that this happened to you. But I, too, remember that you said here that you did not want to be involved with your new grand-daughter. This undoubtedly hurt your daughter very much, and contributed to your estrangement from her. If you genuinely want to make things better, a great place to start would be to be a loving grandmother who is willing to spend some time with this little child.
It is so much easier to blame others for everything, and it can make you feel better about yourself for a little while. But, if you never look at the parts of your own behavior which could be improved, you will probably go on hurting your children just as they are hurting you. That way, nothing ever gets healthier or happier. If this is your choice, wouldn't it be better to keep it a private matter?
Posted by Phillipa on May 4, 2013, at 12:07:32
In reply to Re: Not really a distortion Phillipa, posted by Twinleaf on May 3, 2013, at 15:37:29
What does selling our home and moving here on her command mean when she threatened to not contact us if we didn't move here. Me helping deliver the baby. Then her letting her rich Sister get her another job in Florida Mean. And then her moving down there With her child And now due to real estate we are living in an area we don't even want to be in. There comes a time as my Son said about his grown Son when they are adults and if they want let them contact you mean? Same with him and his Grown Son who lives close by to him. People it's all about giving what you can give and then that is it.
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2013, at 12:44:12
In reply to Re: Not really a distortion Phillipa » Twinleaf, posted by Phillipa on May 4, 2013, at 12:07:32
The thing about relationships is that they involve two sides. I really like Harriet Lerner's idea of the dance. She has several books, including "The Dance of Connection" and "The Dance of Intimacy". (Has she ever written a "Dance of Therapy"?)
The idea is that the relationship of any two (or more I suppose) people is a dance of sorts. The dance steps have been learned over a lifetime. The only way to change the relationship is to change the lifelong patterns of the dance.
If you just look at recent (even ten or fifteen years recent) history in a relationship, you're only really seeing the final result of a lifetime of relationship. I think it might be impossible to take any situation and break it down and see what's happening. Because you're just seeing what is literally happening, not the lifetime of learned moves in the relationship that lead to the actual results.
I'm not blaming you. Heaven knows it's the extremely lucky parent who manages to make it through their children's lives without messing up somehow. I know I'm not one of those blessed few. And heaven knows, kids are not blank slates. Even the best parental relationships are charged. I suspect that in relationships where there is a triangular parental relationship, whether it's divorce or just warring parents, it's even moreso. If you look at my relationship with my son at this moment, there are times when he perceives my actions differently than I intend them. Add a third set of perceptions in there, and it could be even more confusing. Each person reacts to their own interpretation of events, then the reactions lead to more interpretations and more reactions.
Somewhere along the line, the dance with each of your children managed to deviate from what you'd like, through misunderstandings, or unintentional hurts, or whatever - on both sides. You clearly feel hurt and anger and resentment. Probably they feel it, or something like it, as well. It doesn't matter who is to blame at this point. What matters is to change the steps of the dance. Which is far harder to do with only one person involved. Would any of your kids be willing to do long distance family therapy?
Honestly, I think that when there is an entrenched pattern of avoidance and resentment, it is difficult if not impossible to unravel the maze enough to understand it and change it alone. A fairly detached but caring person is needed. If it is at all possible for you, and if this is an issue that could make a big enough difference in your life, I'd strongly suggest that you try therapy with someone skilled in those areas and then be open to what they say. Even if you might not see things in the same way.
For what it's worth, from a daughter and a mother.
Posted by Twinleaf on May 4, 2013, at 13:10:52
In reply to Re: Not really a distortion Phillipa » Twinleaf, posted by Phillipa on May 4, 2013, at 12:07:32
I think Dinah has expressed the really important aspects of your family situation so well - how relationships get gradually stuck in various degrees of misunderstanding and mutual hurt. Even if one person is responsible for much of the difficulty, it does take everyone involved to make things better and happier. I do agree with her that a skilled outside person is usually needed to help a family repair such a serious rupture. Have you ever talked to them about such a possibility?
It seems as if Babble is being used as one more way of continuing the conflict. In some ways, this is more serious than a private fight or disagreement, because it is public and permanent. It is of course very welcome if you, Dinah or I bring personal problems here which we would like help with. But it becomes destructive when Babble is used to simply blame other family members.
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