![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 26, 2011, at 10:26:46
Anyone here use walking poles?
I see them more and more on the trails.
The poles are said to do a few things: distribute weight bearing a bit to the upper body--good for bone retention and decreasing stress on hips, knees and lower back. It also gives a subtle workout to upper body muscle groups. As a walker, and before that, runner, my upper body has always been neglected.
With the advent of menopause, I've noticed a drop in upper body strength. Friends who have weathered 'the change' say this is true--their bodies just kinda' dropped muscle mass despite no change in their activities.
Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2011, at 10:59:53
In reply to walking poles/hiking poles, posted by floatingbridge on April 26, 2011, at 10:26:46
Yes loss of upper muscle mass. I guess some due to change in hormones. lifting light weights I tried for a few years helped a bit but no back pain then and was five years ago. The walking stick on team inspire quite a bit. Phillipa
Posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on April 26, 2011, at 18:16:52
In reply to walking poles/hiking poles, posted by floatingbridge on April 26, 2011, at 10:26:46
> Anyone here use walking poles?
>
> I see them more and more on the trails.
>
> The poles are said to do a few things: distribute weight bearing a bit to the upper body--good for bone retention and decreasing stress on hips, knees and lower back. It also gives a subtle workout to upper body muscle groups. As a walker, and before that, runner, my upper body has always been neglected.
>
> With the advent of menopause, I've noticed a drop in upper body strength. Friends who have weathered 'the change' say this is true--their bodies just kinda' dropped muscle mass despite no change in their activities.I have a pair, and when I do use them, they take so much pressure off of your feet and knees, and in particular, your back. I've always been a *big* guy, but psych meds haven't helped, and keep me 30-40 pounds overweight. I am going to get these out now that the nice weather is here, and see if I can shed this Canadian-winter weight. Definitely, get yourself a pair. As a former runner, you must know too that having the best footware for support is also super-important. Good luck!
Jay
Posted by alexandra_k on April 26, 2011, at 22:40:28
In reply to walking poles/hiking poles, posted by floatingbridge on April 26, 2011, at 10:26:46
> Anyone here use walking poles?
No. It was suggested that I might want to because I have some mobility / balance issues with walking, but I never really got the hang of putting a useful amount of weight on them. Either put most of my weight on them or easier not to put any weight on them at all (to carry them, basically). Other people seem capable of using them to better effect, though.
> With the advent of menopause, I've noticed a drop in upper body strength. Friends who have weathered 'the change' say this is true--their bodies just kinda' dropped muscle mass despite no change in their activities.
Yep.
Ya gotta use 'em or you'll start to lose 'em.
Strength training is the most effective way of getting strong (go figure, heh).
See, for instance:
http://gubernatrix.co.uk/2010/11/why-muscle-building-should-be-your-top-priority-whoever-you-are/
Posted by floatingbridge on April 27, 2011, at 18:38:17
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » floatingbridge, posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on April 26, 2011, at 18:16:52
Cool, Jay. I want run it past my osteopath first because I have carpal tunnel, too. (When it rains, it pours.) But that you feel that much weightbearing stress reduction sounds fantastic.
There is a brand that pops up when I first Google the poles--I forget what, but they have angled grips that reduce grip stress and make straps unnecessary. Try
those?fb
Yeah, shoes. Mine are so beat. But I might be looking at orthonics anyways. Thanks for the reminder :D
Posted by floatingbridge on April 27, 2011, at 18:56:51
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 26, 2011, at 22:40:28
Oh Alexandra, that link was good, but made me shudder. I so dislike weights and machines. And that red arrow going down :(
What do you do for health maintenance?
Posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 4:00:13
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » alexandra_k, posted by floatingbridge on April 27, 2011, at 18:56:51
I do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4M6GBHb-4o
Not for maintenance, but for improvement. Want to be the best me I can be.
I find it fun rather than a chore. Guess that is the key. To find something that you like. Or to learn to like something that is good for you.
Dropping under the bar for the snatch is the fastest movement in sports :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 4:14:05
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 4:00:13
you can go to the olympics if you get good enough.
or there is powerlifting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhYft_haqpU
or strongman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y43MtB2vSKY&feature=related
or even the dreaded crossfit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjdQZxTIj1U&feature=related
Posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 4:44:56
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 4:14:05
The trouble is that there aren't many gyms anymore. Instead we have the dreaded 'health club' or something like that. Often full of girls doing endless cardio in their efforts to look like a holocaust survivors and boys doing bench and curls in their efforts to look athletic. Can be a meat market. Can be patronizing with respect to the level of athleticism or strength or fitness exhibited and encouraged by the personal trainers.
Can be hard to find a decent bunch of people or a decent trainer.
Of course you don't really need one...
Milo was an ancient greek dude who carried a baby calf around on his back every day. Eventually the calf grew into a massive bull and Milo got his self pretty damned strong that way. Principle of progressive overload. Pick up something manageable a few times. Next time pick up something slightly heavier... Slightly heavier... Eventually... You should be able to pick up something that weighs as much as yourself in a year. Something that weighs one and a half times as much as yourself in a couple years... Some people pick stuff up that is more like twice or even three times their bodyweight.
People.
If you factor in muscle mass... Girls have less than guys because our skeletal frames are smaller and because we have less testosterone etc to fuel its growth. But if you have a guy and a girl with the same amount of muscle mass their potential for strength is the same. Girls are capable of being much much stronger than we tend to think. Guys are too, come to think of it. A lot of the regular bicep and bench guys can't even bench their own bodyweight.
I started because I thought I should. Kept a record of what I could do... Got totally hooked once I saw that I was getting stronger. Noticed side benefits like my muscles grew (made me look more curvy / shapely), my fat diminished, I felt stronger more powerful and capable. Athletic. Self confident. Self possessed. Never gonna look back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS8Tqmf67rI
She's 64.
Lifting heavy weights is the fountain of youth, I swear. You wouldn't believe the guys at my gym who are in their 50's (look like their early 30's) and late 60's (look in their early / mid 40's).
Retaining muscle mass and functional movement (squat, deadlift, lunge, overhead press).
It is never too late to start. The strength community is actually very accepting and encouraging of new members. You do need some inner motivation - but it is easy to come by if you keep a record and see your progress for yourself.
Just don't whatever you do start lifting 1 or 2 or even 5 or 10kg dumbbells for a bajillion reps and think you will get 'toned' that way. It is a waste of time. Ditto for shake weights that tone through vibration or... Walking poles for sculpting the arms. Sorry. Principle of progressive overload. You won't look like a woman who takes steroids if you don't take steroids. Your body will look however it is supposed to look when you are fit and healthy. Most people find fit and healthy attractive. The thing to do is to get strong. Strong bones. Strong muscles. Fountain of youth.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 28, 2011, at 4:59:19
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 4:14:05
These were fun to watch. I bet it's fun. My son liked them, too. The first post, we were adoring the woman who would cry out before almost every lift. And adjust her belt.
I have watched strong man events many times. Go figure--a gym-phobe like myself.
Some of the best power lifters are the Russians and eastern Europeans. Well, it's been a few years. That might have changed. It's one sport that the short-legged can dominate.
Awesome! Thanks :D
Posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 5:07:43
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » alexandra_k, posted by floatingbridge on April 28, 2011, at 4:59:19
> It's one sport that the short-legged can dominate.
Yes, indeed. My long limbs / levers work against me lol.
Seriously, though...
People hate on crossfit a bit but they are good for teaching decent (effective) exercises and turning average folks (who don't take themselves to be athletic) and turning them into... Athletes, basically.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzD9BkXGJ1M&feature=related
Passion. That is what is missing from most gyms. You need a bit of dedication / regularity in your training - but not really all that much before you can do something that you couldn't do before. Then that is the time to get excited and fired up by your accomplishment! Then on to your next goal. Helps a lot if you can find others to encourage you on... But not necessary.
Maybe you and your son could train together...
Posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 5:13:55
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 5:07:43
me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twkZ5tLvna0
first joined the gym: August 2009
first started learning olympic weightlifting: 1 year ago at easter.when i first started learning olympic weightlifting I couldn't even lift the women's bar (weighs 15kg) lol. still practice with a broomstick sometimes.
i feel better than i was 10 years ago... better than ever, actually :-)
Posted by floatingbridge on April 28, 2011, at 12:36:25
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 5:13:55
That's amazing :D. Thanks! You are long-limbed. And flexible? That can be another challenge, too.
I didn't convert kg to pounds. 36 kg?
So I have a relative who does this and it manages greatly though not completely symptoms of BPl. He took me into a gym. It was really insane in a good, wild
way. I walked on a treadmill while he wrapped weights on himself and did one arm pull ups.
I want the hiking poles not for arm
sculpting. I need to begin activity again, and right now, my osteopath has contraindicated just about anything. I have spine issues with some damage. Right now I'd be pleased to walk and go in a warm pool.I've read that light weight training and
cross training (not exactly crossfit) can increase muscle mass in people 80-90+ years of age. In fact, it's reccomended.Your enthusiasm is catchy :D
My son watched with great interest. We watched one link were a man flipped into a standing pose from a sitting kneel.Awesome! Keep it up. Yay! Do you compete?
Posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on April 28, 2011, at 14:55:43
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » Shes_InItForTheMoney, posted by floatingbridge on April 27, 2011, at 18:38:17
> Cool, Jay. I want run it past my osteopath first because I have carpal tunnel, too. (When it rains, it pours.) But that you feel that much weightbearing stress reduction sounds fantastic.
>
> There is a brand that pops up when I first Google the poles--I forget what, but they have angled grips that reduce grip stress and make straps unnecessary. Try
> those?
>
> fb
>
> Yeah, shoes. Mine are so beat. But I might be looking at orthonics anyways. Thanks for the reminder :D
>You are very welcome. The ones I have are a bit older of a model...from about 5 years ago. They are kinda like a 'ski pole' type. But I have heard of those newer ones that have better grip design and such. Most importantly you have to feel as comfortable as possible, so I'd definitely go for the newer design ones. Usually your local specialty footware store should carry all of the good quality orthotic stuff too. I am having some really good success with a particular cross-trainer Nike model shoe that ran me about 180 bucks, plus the insert was another 300 dollars, and I can walk the furthest yet than I ever have in comfort. Add the walking poles, and it is just wonderful exercise. Now I don't feel like I am in such intense pain even after walking for an hour. Before, I could barely put in a half-hour of walking and not feel like I just ran the Boston Marathon. lol. It is all based on good science, too, as they know so much about orthotics. And I am developing arthritis in my legs and back (like you said...when it rains it pours..haha) and this also helps quite a bit.
Especially for us on medications, I still have a ways to go, but brisk walking (esp. with poles and the shoes) can make it easier to lose those pounds put on by meds. Let me know what you find...how you make out..
Jay :)
Posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2011, at 19:58:00
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 5:13:55
Alex Floatingbridge I don't feel knows your history. Could you manage to give a bit of it the physical ones. So inspiring Love Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on April 29, 2011, at 4:47:16
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » alexandra_k, posted by floatingbridge on April 28, 2011, at 12:36:25
about 5 years ago i smashed up my feet / ankles pretty bad. 30% loss in height to my lumbar / thoracic junction. fractured pelvis. burst calcaneus (heel). pretty smashed up midfeet. weber C fracture to left leg... have pins and screws etc still in both ankles. was told i'd probably never be able to walk without crutches, and i still have trouble walking, truth be told.
took me about 3 months to learn to squat. my hips didn't much like it to start with. some broken glass feeling in the joints. i persisted (fairly gently) and eventually the broken glass feeling went away and now i have the best range of motion in my hips i ever remember having. my ankle dorsiflexion is pretty much non-existent. not sure how much that is because of the pins in my ankles or how much it is soft tissue restriction. been working on that pretty hard for the last year. my feet are the best they have ever been since my injury, but they are still very far from normal.
i got some of these a couple months ago:
http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/barefoot-sports/
my toes are starting to uncurl. my arches are starting to strengthen (one flat arch is starting to develop, one cramped arch is starting to relax).
i need to squat in shoes that have 2x standard Olympic Lifting heel raise because otherwise I can't squat, though... You will notice I sit my butt back behind my midfoot rather than sitting my butt down between my legs (which would require my knees to move more in front of my ankles).
Where there is a will there is a way...
> 36 kg?
79.37 pounds.
I got 39.5kg two days ago (87 pounds).
This time last year I literally was not physically strong enough in my legs to stand up from seated without using my arms.
> I have spine issues with some damage. Right now I'd be pleased to walk and go in a warm pool.
I hear you. Squatting is simply sitting down and standing up without using your arms, though. There is a way of holding your spine (in a good lumbar curve) for squatting weight and for deadlifting (picking up things like potatoes or rice or toddlers or TV's). If you develop the mobility to hold a good lumbar arch and then practice holding your lumbar arch with weight (in the squat and deadlift) then you will be amazed at what weights you can lift safely.
> I've read that light weight training and
> cross training (not exactly crossfit) can increase muscle mass in people 80-90+ years of age. In fact, it's reccomended.Light weight training? You mean lifting things that are lighter than your bags of potatoes or rice or toddler or handbag even? Sorry... But that won't really do sh*t.
I mean... Something is better than nothing, true. If you are used to doing nothing then doing something will result in your body adapting to new demands... But you gotta keep making your body do that little bit more than it did last time in order to force it to adapt to those new demands.
I bet you are capable of being much much much much much stronger than you think. Safely.
1st - learn the functional movements:
Squat
Lunge
Deadlift
Horizontal Press
Horizontal Pull
Vertical Press
Vertical PullOnly when you can do the movement comfortably should you attempt to add weight (gradually!) By all means start with 1kg. But then when you can do three sets of 8-12 repetitions PUT THE WEIGHT UP. Gradually. The calf didn't become a bull overnight lol.
I've done one relatively informal competition. I can snatch okay (in the vid). Have trouble jerking, though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXlcA7VCRyM
The second part of the lift when you jerk it from your shoulders to overhead. My toes claw a bit into the ground so I can't lunge / balance the weight comfortably on the ball of my back foot.
I'm going to need to learn to squat jerk for competitions. Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP-eRlIvfF8&feature=related
I'm still working on developing the shoulder flexibility and balance. Will probably take me quite a while before that is stronger than my push-press:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLcntfkyXbM
You need to catch it with elbows locked out for competition (can't push it up).
I'll be 35 in a couple years... Hopefully I'll be competitive in the Masters Level :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on April 29, 2011, at 4:54:53
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2011, at 19:58:00
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/proper_back_position_for_power
the above is a link to an article on 'the proper back position for power'. if you have any spinal troubles whatsoever (and even if you don't) a top priority should be learning how to adopt this back position. firstly unweighted. it should be mastered before it is safe to add weight. once it is mastered you are safe to add as much weight as you possibly can WHILE MAINTAINING THE PROPER BACK POSITION.
i'm still working on mine (have some dull / nagging pain that reminds me when i'm not holding it as tightly as I should be).
young people can often get away with loading up without maintaining this position. it will bite them on the *ss eventually, though, as they will injure their back...
Posted by alexandra_k on April 29, 2011, at 18:31:55
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 29, 2011, at 4:54:53
I don't think Ripptoe tends to deal with many people who are injured. He mostly deals with college level athletes. I do think that many people (including women!) can have trouble producing and maintaining their lumbar extension after back injury.
My lumbar spine has had a dull nagging kind of ache since my injury. The way I dealt with it was mostly to tune it out / ignore it. I've had to re-learn how to be properly aware of the position of my lower back in order to produce the lumbar extension and feel when it is starting to be pulled out in weighted movements.
Where is your spinal injury? Lumbar / thoracic junction or somewhere else?
I didn't mean to be totally dismissive of the idea of light weight training producing results...
But there is a world of difference between 'maintenence' and 'improvement'. Because of the age related decline you actually need to improve in order to maintain - if that makes sense. And... You probably want to make up for some of the decline that has already happened since your early 20's...
It is a bit hard, though...
When I first started at the gym I got a machine weights program. I did that for 3 months and it was actually pretty good for me because I learned what muscles each machine was supposed to work (helpful pictures on the machines) and learned to have some voluntary control over the activation of the muscles. I was also really weak. Had difficulty doing three sets of 8-10 at the lightest weight.
Progress comes so very fast when you just start out... Only took one or two weeks before I could put the weight up and get the 8-10 reps! That was what got me hooked... Feeling that I was making progress.
After 3 months I got a free weights program. Squat, Lunge, and some dumbbell exercises. I spent much longer on these without any weight at all. Learning how to hold my spine safely for overhead pressing (engage abs and glutes and don't overextend the spine) and just getting the hang of the movements. I... Probably got a bit weaker with respect to my strength on the old exercises... But these are functional movements and now I'm able to use them in my daily life (e.g., squat to sit, lunge to pick up stuff from the ground, press to put stuff on the shelf).
Squatting was really hard for me because I've got long femurs and my knees can't come in front of my ankles because of my injuries and also because i've got some crankiness in my hips so that they really don't like a wider squatting stance. Did a lot of reading on the internet trying to learn how to squat properly... And discovered the Olympic Lifts. I wanted to be able to do them with good form. Symbol of flexibility, mobility, and strength for me. Didn't know if it would be possible, but wanted to try.
Apparently if you are athletic you can expect to snatch your bodyweight in 1 year. I wasn't athletic, though, and much of my training is still focusing on mobility (still working on my back position and ankle mobility and trying to relax the tendons / muscles in my feet / lower legs). I can snatch about half my bodyweight at the moment (after 1 year). Hopefully I'll be snatching my bodyweight this time next year :-)
It is about finding something you enjoy...
But... One virtue of heavy weights is that it improves bone density (so you are less likely to fracture bones later in life). One virtue of functional movements (squat, lunge etc) is that you are less likely to lose your balance / fall later in life.Use the muscles - spare the joints.
Used to have a lot of joint pain. Then I learned that muscles are what is supposed to protect your joints. Muscles are the impact absorbers... Not your ankles and knees after all... Forefoot gentle strike and your arches will eventually progressively adapt to do what they are designed to do (the muscles in your midfeet are the primary shock absorbers for motion). Orthotics are a crutch... They might give you better mobility but it is artificial in the sense that you aren't working to rectify the weakest link. To have better mobility from within yourself...
Posted by Phillipa on April 29, 2011, at 21:38:20
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 29, 2011, at 18:31:55
Alex thanks for posting as so inspirational. Myself just 65 with cervical spurs and nerve impringment, and spinal stenosis, also some fused cervical discs on own, and have had herniated disc, healed on own a few years back. But horrible lumbar back pain. Discs are narrowed badly. MRI today and seeing neurosurgeon and spine doc. I have been active all my life weight lifting not as heavy as you, also mostly machines not free weights, was a runner average 3miles I'd say. And Aerobic Dance Instructor and choreographer before nursing and ran til age 58. Now just the bike riding six miles only. After my consult on the 16th of May will see if he wants to do shaving of bone spurs in neck to release the impringed nerves. If so think weights possible again? Thanks Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on April 30, 2011, at 19:20:23
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 29, 2011, at 18:31:55
Hi Alexandra,
Thank you for your generosity in all your posts. I love your enthusiasm and how you amazingly have worked with what most would call a major setback. So please, no worries arbour the arm sculpting thing :-)
The past few days have been down days; that's why I've been pretty quiet.
I've been thinking of you though. Maybe I don't have an educated enough eye, but the video of you :D doesn't hint at what you have been through. Now that is amazing!
When you speak of orthonics, what do you personally feel about them for arthritis? Just wondering because you don't have an experience like yours w/o learning quite a bit. I don't have to follow your advice, (or opinion), but I'd like to hear it.
Btw, my husband is talking me into Aikido. I called the dojo to explain all the yadda-yadda about not being able to roll and fall, etc. No problem, they said. Come as you are.
Here's to getting moving.
Post a video or babblemail me one anytime!
Warmly,
fb
Posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2011, at 21:34:32
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » alexandra_k, posted by floatingbridge on April 30, 2011, at 19:20:23
FB I don't think the video is actually of Alex. Just demonstrations of what is possible. Aikkdo sp? What's that? Love Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on April 30, 2011, at 21:53:46
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2011, at 21:34:32
Phillipa, I think it is. I just watched it again for a little boost. Very inspiring!
Back east we'd say, when given particularly delightful, surprising news:
No waaay. Come on. Get out! Really? Get outta here!
Posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2011, at 22:08:54
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on April 30, 2011, at 21:53:46
FB Alex is a lovely person first friend on babble to both me and Greg she went to bat for us. I admire and respect Alex bunches!!!! Phillipa
Posted by 10derheart on April 30, 2011, at 23:52:34
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2011, at 21:34:32
This one is alex. She said so. She says "me"
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20110407/msgs/983939.html
I love it, too. So strong.
Posted by 10derheart on April 30, 2011, at 23:54:58
In reply to Re: walking poles/hiking poles, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2011, at 5:13:55
Alex,
This is totally, freakin' awesome!!!
You are a hero to me, more ways than one.
You have climbed one helluva mountain, there, young lady....and you are still climbing....don't stop
much affection.....10der
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