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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 41. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 19:03:46
Even though BirdSong wrote things in a way that triggered me, she/he has a point. I often do still bring up ODing or suicide when I feel badly. I think it may be a way of communicating my intense emotions. I want to not feel bad emotions so intensely, but on the other hand, it is part of who I am.
How do I balance accepting myself and change?
I think BirdSong triggered me because I thought she was saying I was not good enough. I've already made a lot of progress, but it just seems like it is never enough and I feel frustrated.
How would you feel if you were trying your best and people still tell you it is not good enough?
Everyone has faults, why can't the world accept me for who I am?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 20:00:22
In reply to Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 19:03:46
I still have thoughts of the form 'I just want to die' and 'I wish I could just curl up and die' and 'I hate myself' and mental pictures of my slashing my arms when things aren't going well for me. I think that mostly it is just a habit of thought - the way things are naturally set up for me now. I know I used to get kinda hung up on that - in thinking that that was what I really wanted to do. Now I think it is less about what I really want to do and more about the way that my body signals distress to me. Instead of my naturally thinking 'I'm really upset about x' I just get mental pictures of me slashing my arms.
One of the things that was really helpful to me was people (therapists included) not focusing so much on the surface morphology of what I was saying. I don't mean ignoring my significant distress - I mean them realizing that that was the way that my significant distress manifests. Over time I've made progress on 'Oh, I feel like slashing my arms or curling up and dying - I guess that means I'm upset about something. What am I upset about? What is going on for me?' Figuring that out can be really hard. Often the only easy part (the only way that I can realize that I actually am distressed) is noticing that I am thinking about how to hurt / kill myself.
It is hard to talk about what is distressing if you simply don't know. I think that you have been making progress on this (me too) but it really can be very hard when your body is so used to manifesting distress in that way. I think that sometimes people think that the best they can do to help is try and get you to call your p-doc or call crisis (because they appreciate that things must be bad if those are the thoughts / feelings you are having). Trouble is that what can your p-doc or crisis services do? Focus less on the surface morphology and try and help you put some words to what is going on, I guess. It is a shame that we can't help do that here. I guess it is hard for everyone, just that everyones hurt and upset manifests in slightly different ways, or something. I don't know.
I think people mean well and are trying to help. But everyone has their own road, I don't know. I thought DBT was the answer to everything for a while there. I've since read a whole bunch of stuff on mentalization based treatment etc etc etc. Other forms of treatment are doing well as well. Linehan said that she wasn't sure what the mechanisms were that resulted in DBT being effective (the most effective form of therapy for a time). She was open to the possibility that it rejuvinated therapists and gave them hope that they could help. I don't know. I think part of it is about when you feel really upset / get images of hurting yourself / think you have a desire to hurt yourself to say to yourself 'gee I must be feeling really very bad right now. Something must be going on. I wonder what it is that I'm feeling upset about?' Can take very many cognitive steps to get to there...
Posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 20:03:28
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 20:00:22
I think that sometimes it is hard for people because they are trying not to do that. I know that when I'm struggling with the mental pictures of slashing my arms then I'm not really in the place to read about someone else saying that they want to / are going to slash their arms. It makes the images more intense for me and that makes it harder for me to figure out what is going on. Hard for me, too, because once upon a time the only way I could get any kind of empathetic attention was to take an overdose or something. So much more attractive (to my mind when I'm very distressed) to contemplate slashing my arms and having a few moments of empathetic care with someone (and a whole heap of judgement from others of course - but you can usually get a few moments with one person even if it is a receptionist or whatever) vs ... trying to figure out what is going on and then... What?
Life can be hard sometimes.
Hang in there.
Posted by SLS on June 13, 2009, at 20:09:48
In reply to Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 19:03:46
> Everyone has faults,
Last I checked, the only fault I had was that I had none.
> why can't the world accept me for who I am?
To try to control the sentiments and beliefs of the whole world is a tall order. It is impractical to set this as your immediate goal.
I think it would be VERY instructive to make a list of precisely those people who do not currently accept you for who you are.
I am not pushing you to make one, but I would really be interested in seeing such a list. I think it would be educational.
- Scott
Posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 20:32:59
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 20:03:28
Thanks Alex,
I think people mean well too. It is just hard when my manifestations of distress are so distressing to others.
I think I need to realize when I am having thoughts of ODing etc. that I need to stop and dig deeper into why I am having thoughts thoughts. Then instead of posting that I want to OD or whatever, I post about what it is that is upsetting me.
Writing about ODing just alienates people from me. It's just the way I express my distress, but it is distressing to others.
I am working on it. I tried out writing out my distressing thoughts in a cipher form. Perhaps I should do that instead so I get to express my distress but no one will understand what it is I am writing about.
Posted by henrietta on June 13, 2009, at 20:36:52
In reply to Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 19:03:46
The question is, is it good enough for you? Do you feel you'd like to be at the place you are right now forever, or would you like to feel better? I think your posts indicate you'd like to feel better, you'd like to grow. It's up to you.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 20:45:15
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 20:32:59
> I think people mean well too. It is just hard when my manifestations of distress are so distressing to others.
Yeah. And I don't think that you mean for them to be distressing to others - but sometimes they can be for others depending on their issues. Hard to know what to do about that, though. It would be a shame if you (and others) didn't have a forum where they could express their distress. It would be a shame if others didn't have a forum that was safe for them to read without feeling distressed. I guess we just do trigger warnings as best we can...
> I think I need to realize when I am having thoughts of ODing etc. that I need to stop and dig deeper into why I am having thoughts thoughts. Then instead of posting that I want to OD or whatever, I post about what it is that is upsetting me.Ideally, sure. In practice it can be really hard, though. Sometimes it takes me a few days - sometimes it isn't until the distress has basically passed that I can figure it out. Sometimes language kind of fails and it is hard to know what to say. Hang in there.
Posted by Tabitha on June 13, 2009, at 21:04:59
In reply to Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 19:03:46
> I want to not feel bad emotions so intensely, but on the other hand, it is part of who I am.
>Hi Deneb,
I think you just captured why you're having a hard time with the idea of change. It sounds like you believe your emotional spirals are part of your identity. So naturally you'll feel attacked when someone suggests you change them.Part of getting better for me was starting to separate my identify from my symptoms & coping mechanisms. Change is still scary, but it's less threatening if you can think of "you" as separate from those things.
Does this make sense?
Posted by henrietta on June 13, 2009, at 21:19:33
In reply to Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 19:03:46
Denebe, this may or may not be helpful. It has popped unbidden into my head. As a volunteer I teach children to read....children for whom reading does not come easily. Tonight I've imagined a 5 year old saying to me, "Gee, when I was 4 I didn't even know the alphabet. NOW you're asking me to do something with it? You're asking me to build words, you're asking me to read? You're telling me I'm not good enough??"
Just something to ponder. Or not.
Posted by garnet71 on June 13, 2009, at 21:21:37
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 20:32:59
"I think I need to realize when I am having thoughts of ODing etc. that I need to stop and dig deeper into why I am having thoughts thoughts. Then instead of posting that I want to OD or whatever, I post about what it is that is upsetting me."
Stop right there-that is insight. Keep this thought, keep reinforcing this thought until next time it happens then act on this thought. I think that thought can evolve into a lot more.
The insight is a big step.
"but no one will understand what it is I am writing about"
And I also think that people will understand; you have in your mind people won't understand-that is part of the insight issue.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 13, 2009, at 21:22:20
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change » Deneb, posted by Tabitha on June 13, 2009, at 21:04:59
> Part of getting better for me was starting to separate my identify from my symptoms & coping mechanisms. Change is still scary, but it's less threatening if you can think of "you" as separate from those things.
I think you've hit on the essence of the mindfulness component. Kind of a psuedo-objectivity.
Lar
Posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:33:31
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change » Deneb, posted by Tabitha on June 13, 2009, at 21:04:59
> > I want to not feel bad emotions so intensely, but on the other hand, it is part of who I am.
> >
>
> Hi Deneb,
> I think you just captured why you're having a hard time with the idea of change. It sounds like you believe your emotional spirals are part of your identity. So naturally you'll feel attacked when someone suggests you change them.
>
> Part of getting better for me was starting to separate my identify from my symptoms & coping mechanisms. Change is still scary, but it's less threatening if you can think of "you" as separate from those things.
>
> Does this make sense?
>How were you able to separate your identity from your symptoms?
I think I did feel attacked.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 21:33:43
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Larry Hoover on June 13, 2009, at 21:22:20
maybe the thought about change is this horrible notion that one will be feeling intense distress and... not able to express that. that the change that is 'required' is for one to... stop expressing what is going on. that would be horrible indeed...
why would someone want to feel horrible distress? it probably isn't the thought that THAT will change, but more that what people are wanting is for one to suffer it alone...
Posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:35:52
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change » Deneb, posted by henrietta on June 13, 2009, at 21:19:33
> Denebe, this may or may not be helpful. It has popped unbidden into my head. As a volunteer I teach children to read....children for whom reading does not come easily. Tonight I've imagined a 5 year old saying to me, "Gee, when I was 4 I didn't even know the alphabet. NOW you're asking me to do something with it? You're asking me to build words, you're asking me to read? You're telling me I'm not good enough??"
>
> Just something to ponder. Or not.So if I get this right, people want me to change because they want bigger and better things for me, it is not that they don't accept me?
Posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:38:31
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 21:33:43
> maybe the thought about change is this horrible notion that one will be feeling intense distress and... not able to express that. that the change that is 'required' is for one to... stop expressing what is going on. that would be horrible indeed...
>
> why would someone want to feel horrible distress? it probably isn't the thought that THAT will change, but more that what people are wanting is for one to suffer it alone...That is exactly how I feel. I don't feel I can get rid of the thoughts of wanting to die sometimes. I am just being asked to suffer alone and not express my thoughts.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 21:43:31
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:38:31
> I don't feel I can get rid of the thoughts of wanting to die sometimes. I am just being asked to suffer alone and not express my thoughts.
I hear you. I don't think that that is what people mean, but I hear that it feels that way sometimes. I think people want you to genuinely feel better. Not just not express things for their benefit - but genuinely not feel that way. Just because... It doesn't feel very nice to be intensely distressed. I wouldn't wish that feeling on my worst enemy (or maybe I would a little sometimes) but it is a horrible feeling, yeah.
Posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:44:13
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:38:31
Sometimes I think people would prefer that when I get intensely distressed and want to OD that I just not talk about OD and just OD and not tell anyone at all. Then people would never know how distressed I was. Sometimes I think people would prefer I just disappear one day from suicide rather than write that I am distressed and thinking of suicide and get help from people.
Of course I would rather not feel those things at all, but the fact is that I do feel them. I DO have those thoughts. What am I supposed to do about them? Suppress them? Act on them and never tell a soul?
Would people seriously prefer that I get really upset, tell no one about it, OD, tell no one about it and die?
Posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:47:58
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:44:13
Sorry I got a bit upset again. Of course no one here wants me to die. I think people want me to not feel upset in the first place.
But the fact is that I do feel upset and have those self destructive thoughts. I'm being told to not express them. I still feel the emotions and thoughts, but can't express them. I feel alone.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 21:49:20
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:44:13
> Would people seriously prefer that I get really upset, tell no one about it, OD, tell no one about it and die?No Deneb, I really don't think that that is what people prefer. Or... If they feel that way then that would be a feeling arising from frustration at their being triggered. I don't think anybody really feels that way.
I think it is more that there are ways of expressing your distress (I've heard) that make it more likely that you will get the validating kind of response from others that genuinely helps, compared to ways of expressing your distress (I've heard) that make it more likely that others will feel triggered and then post things that make you feel ordered around or whatever.
I think that people are hoping that you will learn something about those ways of expressing... I think you have come a long way. The move from 'I am going to x' and 'I feel like doing x' is a significant step indeed and it does seem to be one you have made. The step from 'I feel like doing x' to 'y is really bothering me' is another really hard jump. Maybe even harder.
But that being said... It does tend to be distressing to see another in distress. Especially when you don't really know what to do to help / put things right. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't express your distress. But sometimes it is hard / triggering for people.
Take what helps and ignore that which isn't so helpful... Probably the best you can do. Hang in there.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 21:52:41
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:47:58
This is a suggestion (take or leave)
Sometimes when I'm feeling upset I express things over on the writing board. I think that there is more leeway there with respect to expressing real hurt and distress. To spend some time really trying to describe the feeling or whatever. Sometimes expressing it with poetry by analogy or whatever can be a kind of theraputic / working through thing to do. It helps me sometimes at any rate. It can be a hard thing, yeah.
Posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:57:21
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2009, at 21:52:41
> This is a suggestion (take or leave)
>
> Sometimes when I'm feeling upset I express things over on the writing board. I think that there is more leeway there with respect to expressing real hurt and distress. To spend some time really trying to describe the feeling or whatever. Sometimes expressing it with poetry by analogy or whatever can be a kind of theraputic / working through thing to do. It helps me sometimes at any rate. It can be a hard thing, yeah.Thanks for the suggestion Alex. It's been years since I've written poetry or stories. I think I will try it out.
Posted by Phillipa on June 14, 2009, at 0:00:19
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2009, at 21:57:21
Deneb you're doing so much better than when I first met you so impressed. Love Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2009, at 0:29:06
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change » Deneb, posted by Phillipa on June 14, 2009, at 0:00:19
The therapist I was working with told me out of the blue that we weren't going to be working together anymore and that she was reccommending (for my file) that nobody work with me and that I be discharged from the service because I hadn't shown any improvement with all the therapy that had been offered to me over the last few years. I lost it. They called crisis services. I was in hospital for a few weeks. I was on something or other that made my vision all blurry and I couldn't study. They discharged me at 11am on a morning where I had my one and only exam scheduled in for 3pm. I knew that there was no way that I'd pass the exam if I sat it. I thought that I had to take the exam since I was discharged from hospital. I thought that if I flunked that class (which I would have done with a fail for the exam) then I would ruin my chances of getting a scholarship to do my PhD. I jumped off an overbridge onto a motorway. Fractured legs and spine and pelvis etc. Don't know that I wanted to die. Do know that I needed to be in hospital in order to get compassionate consideration on the exam. Thats how it seemed to me at the time at any rate. And then they said that I wouldn't qualify because my injuries were self inflicted. And the p-docs were like 'its okay you can do the course (the last course required for my degree) again and get an A next time around!!!' and I was like 'of course I can but that won't help my GPA'. Eventually... Someone got that. Signed off on the compassionate. The things we do... There didn't seem to be another way. And... I'd do it again if I needed to.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2009, at 0:30:13
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2009, at 0:29:06
Posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2009, at 0:35:15
In reply to Re: Balancing acceptance and change, posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2009, at 0:29:06
i just remember running. sometimes if they are going to discharge you and you don't want to be discharged there are things you can do so you get to stay. start kicking doors or bashing them with your head or something. seclusion isn't pretty but it can buy you another week. sometimes running helps. if they say you are discharged and you just bolt - you can usually get out the door (that a nurse is letting a patient / visitor in or out) and if you just bolt through then people usually chase you and tackle you and you get a shot of something before they have quite realized what is going on. can buy yourself another week. nobody tackled me. they went to and the p-doc yelled out 'leave her!!!' so i kept running... kept running... i remember knowing what i needed to do and being really scared... but knowing i needed to do it... looking both ways (didn't want to hurt others) i just... couldn't bring myself to do anything other than climbing over and then very gently... very gingerly... letting go (so landed on my heels).
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