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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2005, at 23:50:25
I haven't slept in my bed (or bedroom for that matter) for almost 2 years. INstead I fall asleep on my couch. Took me a while to figure out - but I think it's because I've associated my bedroom with being alone, insomnia, having to get up for work, isolation, etc.
I find that falling asleep with the TV on is somewhat comforting and keeps my thoughts (usually) off being depressed or worried about work, etc. However, I've had MANY MANY nights where I can't sleep on my couch either - meaning, I find that I'm still experiencing all the things I listed for my bedroom - sleeping on the couch.
Weird, because before this happened I always looked forward to getting in bed - I mean even while having depression. Before my couch sleeping, I found my bed comfortable, a place to escape to, cozy, etc. Now it's the exact opposite - and I almost have anxiety attacks if I try to sleep in my bedroom. Nothing terrible happened to me in my bedroom - minus depression and insomnia, nightmares, etc.
I don't know what to do? I've tried everything - to make my bedroom more comfortable, etc etc - but I can't break this. Anyone have any suggestions? I really need help.
Thanks
Jerry
Posted by alexandra_k on September 25, 2005, at 0:03:06
In reply to Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2005, at 23:50:25
is the sound of the tv helpful?
maybe you could move that into your bedroom??
or maybe...
you are used to the couch
lol
maybe you want to move that in there too??I'm not sure what else to suggest...
Posted by wildcard on September 25, 2005, at 1:16:21
In reply to Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2005, at 23:50:25
Sorry things are rough for u right now. Have u ever thought of completely redoing ur bedroom? U can usually find someone elses mixed paint they didny want real cheap and stores always have pretty good sales on bedsets,curtain(s),etc.. U cld move the tv in there or get something soothing like a lava lamp (those are great for anxiety)! Move the furniture around, add some style of ur own maybe? I too like a tv to fall asleep w/ so i set the timer on mine for however long and i am slowly getting used to not needing the sound. One thing i did learn as a long time insomniac is if after lying down for 15 minutes and not feeling drowsy, get up, do something until u feel u may be able to sleep again. It takes repeating but it helps u not get sleep anxiety. Take care ; ) PS~ever thought of getting a kitty cat? They are wonderful bed buddies and it is proven that they help many illnesses?!
Posted by rainbowbrite on September 25, 2005, at 10:22:12
In reply to Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2005, at 23:50:25
I went through a similar thing. I ended up moving the TV into my bedroom. It helped, just turn the sleep button on so you don't wake up in the middle of the night from the noise/light. For me I think it was the noise in the background that helped.
Although from my experience I had a difficult time adjusting to sleeping at other peoples' places without the TV. I found that really fristrating. But after awhile I adjusted to that and now I can sleep with or without. Try the TV in bedroom. I think we have a concensus lol
Posted by Angela2 on September 25, 2005, at 11:32:12
In reply to Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2005, at 23:50:25
Jerrympls,
Maybe you could google insomnia to find tips on how to fall asleep. I wish you the best.
Posted by Racer on September 25, 2005, at 21:20:47
In reply to Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2005, at 23:50:25
I know this isn't going to sound all that helpful, but after a year or more of sleeping on the sofa with the TV on, in my clothes, no less, and really almost never going upstairs at all, I did manage to move back to bed. (Although I find I do still kinda limit the amount of time I spend upstairs. Might wanna talk to my T about that...)
Part of the reason that the TV helped me, I think, is that it attracted enough of my attention that I didn't end up ruminating myself fast awake. Just having something to kind of take my attention was enough to help me sleep.
Moving back to bed was very hard, I won't try to say otherwise. It was very well worth it, though. Mostly, I just decided I needed to move back to bed, and forced myself to go up there, put on a nightgown, and get into bed. I would try to get to bed earlier, so that I had time to wind down, which helped. I made sure I didn't fall asleep on the sofa -- now my husband does that instead, which helps make sure I don't, since the sofa's too small for both of us -- and I sleep in bed almost every night. (If I do fall asleep on the sofa, my husband likes to leave me there. No matter how many times I ask him not to. He's afraid I won't be able to get to sleep if he drags me upstairs to bed.)
Mind you, I was successful despite the fact that my Main Man has stopped sleeping with me -- the cat who's slept curled up against me virtually every night for the past 16 years won't sleep with me anymore. He used to purr me to sleep as though I were an orphaned kitten. So it's a tough change to adjust to, but I'm still able to sleep in bed now.
I do take a book with me, something that will take enough of my attention that I don't get to ruminating. I also do this thing that helps me a lot: I play a little daydream scenario in my head, which also relaxes me and avoids the rumination. Nothing too exciting, or it will keep me awake; nothing that relates to a monster from the Anxiety Closet; nothing that might make me want to go check a reference book; and nothing that might inspire me to get up and play with my 'personal pleasure toys.' Just a nice, easy day dream kind of thing: vacationing at a beach resort, with lovely weather, a quiet lagoon with azure water, etc. Or sitting curled up in front of a fire with a group of friends, talking quietly.
I don't know exactly what changed that allowed me to move back to bed, but I'm glad I managed it. I hope that something helps you. And I hope maybe something I've offered here can be part of your solution.
Posted by Mal on September 26, 2005, at 6:53:11
In reply to I went through that -- and didn't move a TV » jerrympls, posted by Racer on September 25, 2005, at 21:20:47
Jerry & Racer-
I have had very little actual trouble falling asleep, but I do the scenario thing in my head too. Always the same one since I was a kid. I am swinging, slowly, on a swing in a tree. The 1-person kind of swing, maybe an old tire swing- not a bench type swing. And there are flowers at the base of the tree. It is a beautiful day and I imagine how it feels to swing...That usually works. But when it doesn't, I usually have great success, um, if I , um, OK, have an orgasm.
Best of luck to you!
MAL
Posted by lynn970 on September 26, 2005, at 7:28:57
In reply to Re: I went through that -- and didn't move a TV, posted by Mal on September 26, 2005, at 6:53:11
I went through that too. Wow, I didn't think others had that problem. I didnt have panic attacks in my room, I just couldnt fall asleep there. My husband did not appreciate that much. Now, we sleep with the tv on all night. That really does work for me.
I hope that this helps.
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on September 26, 2005, at 11:09:01
In reply to Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2005, at 23:50:25
Have you tried any of the sleep meds? Are you trying to avoid taking one? Or did they not work? One thing that helped me was to use Ambien. It helps with the getting to sleep thing a lot. Some people have probs b/c they wake up again, but for me, my biggest prob was getting to sleep and taking Ambien took care of that. It was also helpful in breaking my bad habits surrounding my bedtime. For example, I would sorta fall asleep on the couch, but then I would wake up and need to get ready for bed. It would interfere with quality sleep.
Additionally, one of the hardest think abt having probs falling asleep is that sometimes you get stressed out b/c you are not falling asleep! How ironic, huh? Does that happen to you? I find that it helps to tell myself, "Okay, you can't sleep, let's do something else for a while." Then I get up for 15-30 minutes, and do something to re-focus (de-focus?) my mind. Usually I watch TV (in the dark) or look at a mindless magazine.
Hope you get some relief!
Best,
EE
Posted by Racer on September 26, 2005, at 12:55:54
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » jerrympls, posted by Emily Elizabeth on September 26, 2005, at 11:09:01
It just struck me right now, but the other change I made was to cut waaaaayyyy back on caffeine! And to avoid caffeine after noon.
I did that before getting over the sleeping-on-the-sofa thing, months before, but I know it's made a difference in my sleep.
Just a thought...
Posted by Sarah T. on September 27, 2005, at 0:23:37
In reply to Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2005, at 23:50:25
Hi Jerry,
A few years ago, I saw a poster for sale in a gift shop that I seriously considered buying. The poster said: "Martha Stewart doesn't live here." Martha Stewart doesn't live at your house and neither do the editors of HOUSE AND GARDEN magazine, so why should it matter where you choose to sleep? If you feel more comfortable in the living room now, don't fight it. There are no rules or laws governing where you should sleep.
If it really bothers you, you could put your TV or another, small TV in the bedroom and try to sleep there, but it sounds as if you need to be in the living room now. Try to make the living room as comfortable as possible. Does the couch provide decent support for your back? If not, get a new couch or a sofa bed, trundle bed or day bed. The only concerns I would have about your current arrangement are: 1) Your present couch might not provide as much comfort and support as a good mattress, so you might not be getting a restorative, restful sleep and 2) In some susceptible people (like me), the lights from the TV and the computer can affect melatonin and disrupt circadian rhythms, resulting in poor quality sleep. If those two issues are not major concerns for you, I say, go with the flow and continue to sleep where you have been sleeping. Eventually, you'll find your way back to the bedroom -- when you're ready.
Posted by jerrympls on September 27, 2005, at 18:05:47
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » jerrympls, posted by Sarah T. on September 27, 2005, at 0:23:37
You all have some good advice. As for sleep meds - I've been on them all. Ambien was the best and lastes for years - now it barely helps me sleep. So I have to take 300mg of Seroquel - the "It'll make you fat & diabetic" anti-psychotic. It puts me to sleep - but I sleep for 15-20 hours sometimes. I've got a delayed sleep phase disorder which my sleep doc said would be very difficult to treat. He suggested melatonin.
My couch is NOT very comfortable to sleep on now - since I'vebeen sleeping on it for 2 years. And I don't get a restful sleep. I just moved into a new city and anew apartment, so I was hoping to break out of sleeping on the couch and sleeping in my bedroom. Big problem is - as many of you also stated - ruminating thoughts!
Maybe I'll buy a small TV and see if that helps in my bedroom. I really wan to get back in there.
Thanks for your stories and suggestions! Keep'em coming!
Jerry
Posted by Sarah T. on September 27, 2005, at 23:53:38
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on September 27, 2005, at 18:05:47
Hi Jerry,
You mentioned that you have delayed sleep phase syndrome. I have that, too. I've met several people here who struggle with this problem. It is VERY difficult to treat, but there are a few things that can help. First, do you have a light box? If not, I think it would help to get one. You sit in front of the light in the morning, especially during the fall and winter. I've also found that exercising as early in the day as possible helps to re-set the internal clock. My next suggestion will probably not appeal to you (it doesn't appeal to me either). . . I've found that late-night TV and late-night computer use (like what I'm doing now) actually exacerbate my delayed sleep phase syndrome. The lights from the computer and TV screens interfere with melatonin, and the noise and the content of what's on TV can make it difficult to fall asleep.
Some of the companies that make light boxes are The Sunbox Company, Apollo Light Systems, and I think there's another called Northern Light, or something like that. I have a lightbox from Apollo, but I don't think they are the best quality. I suggest you look into one of the other companies.
Do you like to exercise?
Posted by jerrympls on September 28, 2005, at 0:07:01
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » jerrympls, posted by Sarah T. on September 27, 2005, at 23:53:38
> Hi Jerry,
>
> You mentioned that you have delayed sleep phase syndrome. I have that, too. I've met several people here who struggle with this problem. It is VERY difficult to treat, but there are a few things that can help. First, do you have a light box? If not, I think it would help to get one. You sit in front of the light in the morning, especially during the fall and winter. I've also found that exercising as early in the day as possible helps to re-set the internal clock. My next suggestion will probably not appeal to you (it doesn't appeal to me either). . . I've found that late-night TV and late-night computer use (like what I'm doing now) actually exacerbate my delayed sleep phase syndrome. The lights from the computer and TV screens interfere with melatonin, and the noise and the content of what's on TV can make it difficult to fall asleep.
>
> Some of the companies that make light boxes are The Sunbox Company, Apollo Light Systems, and I think there's another called Northern Light, or something like that. I have a lightbox from Apollo, but I don't think they are the best quality. I suggest you look into one of the other companies.
>
> Do you like to exercise?I loath exercise (:-)) - it bores me so quickly. I do take my dog for a walk every night - so that's a start. Do lightboxes work? I just don't know if I could sit in front of a lightbox for an hour every morning for the rest of my life....
Posted by wildcard on September 28, 2005, at 5:55:39
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » Sarah T., posted by jerrympls on September 28, 2005, at 0:07:01
Hey there Jerry! I wish i had the answer for u but i dont : ( I can't imagine the hell u live w/ each day. I can however relate to sleeping 15-20 hours a day. I take nothing to sleep(i have fatigue) and i *except* the past two days sleep 14 hours within a 24 hour period and i have a 10 month old to care for. Thankfully he goes to bed at 8pm and slepps til 10am or later and takes 1-2 naps per day depending. I have heard of lightbox use and i too wonder *if* i cld do that if i were in ur shoes. I wld. try it. It seems unbearable but look how u feel now?. Also, walking is one of the best excercises for you so that is a start!! (((hugs)))
Posted by ed_uk on September 28, 2005, at 14:41:46
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » Sarah T., posted by jerrympls on September 28, 2005, at 0:07:01
Exercise? What's that? ;-) Haven't done any in years. Sooooo boring, don't know how people do it!
~Ed xx
Posted by wildcard on September 28, 2005, at 14:46:54
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » jerrympls, posted by ed_uk on September 28, 2005, at 14:41:46
Posted by Sarah T. on September 29, 2005, at 0:52:11
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » Sarah T., posted by jerrympls on September 28, 2005, at 0:07:01
> > > I loath exercise (:-)) - it bores me so quickly. I do take my dog for a walk every night - so that's a start. Do lightboxes work? I just don't know if I could sit in front of a lightbox for an hour every morning for the rest of my life....>
Hi Jerry. Walking is a terrific exercise, and walking your dog sounds even better. Is it possible to do that in the morning also? I think that exercising earlier in the day might help to re-set your internal clock. Exercise plus the bright light of either a light box or the sun helps.
I don't know whether you'd have to sit in front of a light box every morning for the rest of your life. You'd probably want to do it during the fall and winter. Sitting for an hour is difficult. When I used to live in a studio apartment, being exposed to the light box was much easier because no matter where I was in the apartment, I wasn't that far away from the bright light. Now, I live in a larger place, so it's difficult to park myself in one place long enough. I've read that there are newer, lighter (i.e., less heavy) devices that can be easily transported from room to room and can be taken along when traveling. I think there's one "light box" that is actually a visor that you attach to your head.
Even if you can't sit in front of the box for an hour, some exposure is probably better than none.
Posted by ramsea on October 1, 2005, at 0:54:47
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » jerrympls, posted by Sarah T. on September 29, 2005, at 0:52:11
I find that as winter draws on the light box in the morning routine becomes a comfort. My dog likes to nestle up next to it as if by a hearth, even though it doesn't seem to me to be emitting much heat.
I know some reports say an hour, but with a good light as little as 15 mins. daily can help. You don't have to stare into it for an hour, just get the thing in close enough view while reading, listening to music/talk radio/audiobook, TV, or talking to others/journal writing/paying bills, etc.
I also loathe exercise but like my walks and stationary bike, and find some yoga stretches pleasant. But even with great sleep hygeine, sleep can be elusive. So I paradoxically work hard not to work hard on this--just ease my mind and relax. It's an endurance test someetimes but I'm less distraught about sleepless nights and feel grateful if I get 3 hrs without waking, with another 2-3 hrs with waking every half hour or so.
The darkness, and relaxation of the body, itself is supposed to be good for our brains, so long as we aren't stewing in worries. When I start to panic, I get up and do something like surf the net, read, TV, but try not to get over-stimulated. I might also take an extra sleeping aid.
Posted by Sarah T. on October 4, 2005, at 0:34:11
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » Sarah T., posted by ramsea on October 1, 2005, at 0:54:47
Hi ramsea,
I know what you mean about the light box being a comfort during the winter months. I also use the box on overcast days throughout the rest of the year, but I have to drastically cut down on the amount of time I spend in front of it during the summer; otherwise, I feel kind of "wired."
You're right. Even fifteen minutes is better than nothing. Just do whatever you can do.
I don't have a light box that's small enough or light enough to bring with me when I travel, and when I go without the light for a few days when I'm out of town, I can really feel the difference!
Posted by ramsea on October 4, 2005, at 5:10:20
In reply to Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2005, at 23:50:25
A few more thoughts--just inquiring really. Seroquel at 25 mgs-50 mgs helps me to sleep. Anymore and I have a bad reaction--though I get into a sort of stupor, according to my spouse i am not relaxed and peaceful, but highly agitated and anxious, though unable to achieve actual consiousness for up to 24 hrs. (that's on 200 mgs). However, the very small portion helps me achieve more sleep. Maybe you are taking Seroquel for more than sleep problems though.
Another thing--the light issue is really important. I bought black-out curtains this year to help keep my room totally dark, and my spring-related hyper-insomnia almost instantly improved. I still fell asleep with difficulty, but once asleep, stayed asleep longer. Of course for me longer means---lucky if I get 3 hrs without a period of waking.
Not anxing bout my insomnia is vital. My spouse (who is not bipolar as I am or anything else in MI land) has struggled with insomnia and too light sleeping for some years, esp. following work problems and several primary bereavements, found that relaxing his body and listening to the radio helped immensely. With the radio, or an audiobook, the light doesn't have to be on, and of course unlike with TV/computer there's no extra light emitted. The more darkness, the more melatonin is naturally produced.
Melatonin as a supplement needs to be used with caution. I ended up with a serious prolactin over-production, and the endocrinologist told me that the standard dose of this hormone is some 10 times more than the body should be taking in at one time and could easily be the cause of my serious hormone imbalance. People often think that because it comes from the health food store there's no dangerous side effects, but melatonin is a serious substance.
I guess sleep has always been a trouble for me. Your plight of sleeping in the "wrong place" reminds me of my early childhood, when I would be discovered sleeping in a bowed position on the wooden floor of the hallway, in one special spot. No sheets, no cover, no pillow. But I was comforted there.
Posted by jerrympls on October 6, 2005, at 12:33:06
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » ramsea, posted by Sarah T. on October 4, 2005, at 0:34:11
I saw a "natural light" lamp at a department store for $25. I wonder if this would help - or does it have to be a special kind if light that is used?
Posted by Sarah T. on October 6, 2005, at 21:54:10
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice, posted by jerrympls on October 6, 2005, at 12:33:06
Hi. Well, $25.00 is a reasonable price, but I've never seen a lightbox for that amount. The one I have, which I bought a few years ago, was over $300.00. I'm pretty sure that if you get a doctor to prescribe it for you, some insurance companies will reimburse a portion of that. I know that full spectrum "natural" light BULBS can be bought at garden supply stores and perhaps hardware stores, but they will not have the protective plastic shield that the lightboxes have. The shield protects your eyes.
I bought mine from Apollo Light Company, but it's the second one I've bought over the years, and I don't think I should have had to replace the previous one as soon as I did. Another company that manufactures lightboxes is called The Sunbox Company. I'm pretty sure that both Apollo and The Sunbox Company have websites. There's another one called Northern Light, or something like that. Gardenergirl uses a lightbox, so I hope she will let you know about the one she uses.
The lightboxes have fluorescent light bulbs, and they are NOT the same kind of light that is used in a sunlamp. I'm pretty sure that they do NOT emit UV light, but apparently that plastic protective shield is still necessary.
I suggest logging onto several of their websites and reading about their products. Some of the newer lightboxes are more portable than mine, and they also have products like dawn simulators that feature a gradual increase in light intensity rather than the rude awakening that mine provides.
Posted by jerrympls on October 6, 2005, at 22:14:55
In reply to Re: Can't sleep in my bed or bedroom - need advice » jerrympls, posted by Sarah T. on October 6, 2005, at 21:54:10
I recenlty moved and now I am in a new city unable to find a job. I'm living off of unemployment benefits I receive from being laidoff my previous job. However, I don't know if I can go back to work. My sleep cycle is so out of whack that I don't fall asleep until 7am. Then I sleep all day and wake up around 7pm. My doc said I have a severe sleep phase disorder. Plus I don't want to get a job just to have a job. I want to LIKE what I'm doing - is that wrong? I have NO support out here and to tell you the truth I feel like stepping in front of a bus right now. I feel unneeded and alone. Does anyone live in Madison, WI? I need help - I can barely live on unemployment. I wish I had someone here who cared and tell me everything will be alright.
Anyone?? help
jerry
Posted by Sarah T. on October 6, 2005, at 23:26:11
In reply to Re: Suicidal thoughts again, posted by jerrympls on October 6, 2005, at 22:14:55
Hi Jerry,
Forgive me if I'm confusing you with someone else, but I think I remember that you are a musician although your paid employment was not in music? If you are the person I'm thinking of, is it possible to try to find some other musicians in the city you're in now, and get together for chamber music? And, until you are gainfully employed in a job you want, could you give private music lessons? At least you could schedule those when it's convenient for you, rather than having to teach at the crack of dawn. If you teach school-aged children, you probably wouldn't be able to do that until after school (about 3:00 p.m.) anyway, which is closer to your circadian pattern.
Could you go to the local public and private schools and give your name and resume as someone who is available to give private lessons? You could also look into the music schools in the area to see whether they need another teacher.
As far as other types of employment, I do think that when you are regularly employed, your circadian rhythms will improve somewhat. People like you and me and quite a few others here will probably always struggle with our internal clocks, but I have to admit that my schedule does improve slightly when I am into a regular routine. Of course, that routine often disintegrates on the weekends and holidays, when I don't HAVE to be some place the following morning. I make it more difficult for myself by not maintaining the exact same schedule from day to day.
Until you are in the job you really want, giving music lessons will bring in some income and keep you in contact with people. Also, if possible, it would probably be a good idea to get at least a part-time job during the day to force you into a less depressing circadian pattern. Try not to apply for a job that starts at 8 or 9 a.m. Try to find something that starts in the late morning or early afternoon so that getting there on time won't be quite so daunting. The kind of job I'm talking about does NOT have to be your dream job right now. It just has to be something that will bring in some money, keep you in touch with real, live human beings, and force you to get out of bed earlier.
I think that changing my circadian rhythms is one of the most difficult tasks, but a few things do help a little. One thing is to have a job or other commitment like school that forces you into a regular pattern of having to be up at a particular time.
Using a lightbox also helps, especially during the fall and winter. Even 15 minutes is probably better than not using it all.
Regular exercise, as early in the day as possible also helps me. I'd say that exercise helps more than anything else, but, for me, I MUST do it as early in the day as possible. Although I know many people who exercise late in the day and have no problems sleeping at night, that doesn't work for me. The later I exercise, the later I go to bed, regardless of when I get up in the morning.
Unfortunately, although I'm addicted to late-night Internet reading and late-night TV, those two habits are probably the WORST things for us. The lights from the TV and computer are known to interfere with melatonin, and some of us are more vulnerable to disruption of circadian rhythms than others. Also, for some reason, late at night, I tend to hang onto the Internet and/or TV, even if the TV program (or Internet content) isn't all that interesting. There's just something about late-night hours that makes it difficult to turn it off. It probably has something to do with loneliness. Sometimes, late at night, I'll watch programs that I would never watch earlier in the day. I seem to have more self-discipline during the day and evening.
I hope these suggestions are helpful.
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