![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2005, at 23:54:35
In reply to Rational suicide for competent adults, posted by Shy_Girl on March 8, 2005, at 21:17:33
> I need encouragement and advice for suicide/tips/methods.
Please remember that the idea here is not to discuss specific ways of harming oneself.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Susan47 on March 9, 2005, at 0:42:29
In reply to Re: Rational suicide for competent adults, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 23:33:16
It does take more courage to live when things are bad.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2005, at 0:43:40
In reply to Re: Rational suicide for competent adults, posted by Shy_Girl on March 8, 2005, at 21:44:20
>I would never encourage another person to take their life.
If you think it is acceptable for you to kill yourself then why wouldn't you do this?
Do you think it would be encouraging someone to tell them ways of doing it?
(I am serious - I think this could be an interesting discussion)
Posted by Tabitha on March 9, 2005, at 2:29:43
In reply to Rational suicide for competent adults, posted by Shy_Girl on March 8, 2005, at 21:17:33
That line of thought telling you to kill yourself is not rational, it's part of your illness. It's not a voice of reason, it's a voice of a malfunctioning brain. Your rational self would be able to see other options besides self-destruction.
Those types of thoughts are only good for one thing-- as an indicator that you need a med check. Other than that, you need to learn to treat those thoughts as useless junk.
Posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 8:43:28
In reply to Re: Rational suicide for competent adults » Shy_Girl, posted by Tabitha on March 9, 2005, at 2:29:43
> That line of thought telling you to kill yourself is not rational, it's part of your illness. It's not a voice of reason, it's a voice of a malfunctioning brain. Your rational self would be able to see other options besides self-destruction.
>
> Those types of thoughts are only good for one thing-- as an indicator that you need a med check. Other than that, you need to learn to treat those thoughts as useless junk.Hello
I'm open to rational discussion. I can see myself living a happy life in the future at times, but it is not likely to happen. I've already wasted too much of my famiy's money going to school. Even though it is possible for me to get A's when I'm feeling good, I will still never achieve my goals of doing research in a lab because I get too anxious. It is not a good thing to have shaky hands while pouring conc. sulfuric acid! :P I did really well last semester, but this semester started off on the wrong foot because of the anxiety...then came the stupid hosptial stay that further made me behind. I think the pdoc at the hospital totally over-reacted to my ASA overdose...I did careful research and made sure to take a non-lethal dose. Argh, I had to drop this semester because I couldn't study, because I was obsessed with researching methods and the effects of drugs....it's quite interesting. I must find out why one must check for pulmonary edema in an ASA overdose (unfortunately I haven't studied much of my physiology class). Anyways, without my family, I will probably be homeless. I don't have any life experience or friends. Perhaps tendancy towards suicide is selected for in evolution because it enables resources to be concentrated to where they are needed.
In the meantime, I will see if indeed some of my unhappiness is biological in nature by seeing if the 20mg Celexa will make me feel better. I think it is working somewhat. I also need to take care of my hamster because my family is afraid of him.
Thanks for reading :)
Posted by kid47 on March 9, 2005, at 10:37:03
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 8:43:28
Hi Shy. I think I prefer to "live in defiance." You seem smart, insightful, and I sense a dark sense of humor lurking behind your posts......my kinda' girl. My life sucks alot sometimes, but dying doesn't seem to me to be all that much fun either. As far as friends go, hang around here for a while. Dr. Bob (the benevolent dictator at babble) is an OK guy and he's as geeky as a home made radio.(I say that with love) Plus there are lots of fun, crazy types that drop in from time to time. I'm really intelligent or possibly arrogant or maybe just a giant a$$hole, never have quite figured it out, but in my
estimation and that of the wizard, you are just a victim of abberant brain chemistry causing confused thinking. That is soooo fixable. Try some of the possibly less permanent solutions that might present themselves. How 'bout we give it a year and see how things are. I find ice cream and Cheetos to be a great problem solver or at least pacifier. I'm not trying to be flip. I really REALLY do understand how painful day to day living can be for some of us. Stick around for a while, it could get interesting.Love, Peace, and Happiness
kid
Posted by Tabitha on March 9, 2005, at 13:11:41
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 8:43:28
> I can see myself living a happy life in the future at times, but it is not likely to happen.
Shy_Girl, that is called hopelessness. It happens when your brain is depressed and is blocking out positive thoughts. It's like a filter is on-- you can only see the negative possibility. When your brain is working better you can see more options, and have more faith that good things will happen (along with bad things).
> In the meantime, I will see if indeed some of my unhappiness is biological in nature by seeing if the 20mg Celexa will make me feel better. I think it is working somewhat. I also need to take care of my hamster because my family is afraid of him.
>
> Thanks for reading :)
>Yes I'm sure your hamster needs you very much! Give the meds a chance. And please if you haven't done so, let your doctor know that you're having a lot of thoughts about suicide. It's a symptom and they need to know about it to treat you properly.
Posted by Impermanence on March 9, 2005, at 13:13:10
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 8:43:28
I can see some similarities between yourself and myself. I also think like you do, I think!! I don't see any problem with suicide apart from the misery you leave behind you with those that love you, that alone is reason enough not to kill yourself untill you really are homeless with nobody left. The moral and religious issues as any intelligent rational people understand are nothing more than man made philosophies. There is no right or wrong other than what society has decided is right or wrong and good or evil. Most haven't even decided, they've just let themselves become programmed, brainwashed robots, although I do understand it's extremely difficult for most to step outside of the box and see beyond what they've been programmed to believe from birth.
I've been through four serious suicide attempts over the last four years, they were all while blind drunk but I have spent countless sober hours dreaming of having a bottle of barbiturates to switch off my consciousness permanently, not because I was in pain (although the last eight years of my life have been a roller coaster of anxiety, depression and addiction) but more because I was just fed up with the game of life. I was tired. I could see a bright future, I was pretty happy with things although I was only existing and not living. I could see through the illusions everybody else is cought up in. I diden't want and still don't really want the hassle of job's, relationships, holidays, friends, bla bla bla. The whole EGO game. Everything just seemed and still seems trivial and meaningless, a waste of energy. But with all that I still Love reading and learning. I get a hard on reading up on astrology, chemistry, physics, technology, history, politics, conspiracies. I Love to make music in my bedroom studio. I Love movies, music, games all kinds of art. I sit in wonder at the chaos and beauty of the universe. I see perfection in a childs eyes. I really enjoy my drugs but yet I just coulden't care less if I died tomorrow (although lately I woulden't kill myself so easily, well not while sober anyway but I'm off the booze). I guess in many ways it was and is excepting defeat even though my mental problems have really just about gone. Getting old before I've even lived. It's so easy just to to let yourself and your ambition die.
Over the years I've become very spiritually aware (and I don't mean religious, I have no time for that crap) I guess I mean wise. I meditate, read a lot of "out there" philosophy and take alot of time out to try to understand consciousness. The deeper I look the more amazing it all gets. It still may all be just random chaos but when you look at the big picture, my God what a f**king trip life is. What a waste it would be for you too end it all by your own hand at the tender age of 23 when you haven't even had a chance to find yourself and try to make some sence of it all. I'm 25 now and I can tell you I've learned soooooooo much in these last two years alone, in fact more in these last two years than in the previous 10!!!!
Anxiety levels for me two years ago where hell, now there hardly there. Antidepressants, exercise, meditation, growing up ect really do change things over time. Talking can help too although I find talking trivial, I'm too easy going these days to let things bother me. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's O.K. to commit suicide, but it's crazy to do it so early in your life. Give yourself time, a lot of time before you make a decision that you can never ever go back on. Life may suck right now but you have to admit it's pretty incredible too. The gift of sight, hearing, smell, taste and feeling!!! You are an amazing living organism, your mind is the most powerful computer on the planet. You have the power within you to change the world, make sombody else smile. You have the ability to become enlightened if you choose, as the Buddha said, everybody is God, if they could only see it in themselves.The way I look at it now is I'm on a journey, it's not easy but I'm not going to go very hard on myself lol. When things get hard I've got drugs to make it easier, thats what their there for regardless of what the duller masses say and I've always got the option of suicide, nobody can take that away from me. I'm going to live my life my way and understand the world appears how I perceive it. The glass is now half full, not half empty. I don't like how things and people have gone but I "choose" not to let it get to me. There's loads of lifestyles and ways of thinking you can try before you end it all. I'm thinking about becoming a psychedelic shaman lol, leaving this bulls**t western world and getting in touch with nature, using mind altering plants to open up all levels of my consciousness. See what I find, it could be the key to understanding everything, what else is out there in the universe??? Sounds more fun than neverending nothingness (death). Then when I get bored of it all at 67 I can shoot myself in the head like Hunter S. Thompson did last week.
Give it time hun, you owe yourself that much. Don't let your ego mind make a decision your true self would never conceive of. Find your true self.
Peace. xxx
Posted by PhoenixGirl on March 9, 2005, at 14:01:19
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Shy_Girl, posted by Impermanence on March 9, 2005, at 13:13:10
Hi Shy_Girl. I'm a shy girl myself. You said that you are taking Celexa, a drug which I've taken before too. I've tried a new drug called Cymbalta, which I have found to be much more effective than Celexa. I encourage you to ask your doctor about Cymbalta. It works on both norepinephrine and serotonin, whereas Celexa works on serotonin only.
I think this is a topic that's more for the babble page than the social page, but it seems pertinent to the original post.
Keep us up to date on your progress Shy_Girl. I care about you, even though I don't know you. I want you to be well.
Posted by zander on March 9, 2005, at 14:03:47
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 8:43:28
ShyGirl-
I am still not clear what 'rational discussion' your are open for. Yes, I agree that everyone has the right to do to their own body whatever he/she decides. However, I think that the ramifications and the consequences with respect to other people (i.e., your family, friends, and anyone whose life you touch) need to be seriously considered. When a person makes any decisions, and more specifically your point to take one's own life, it has an effect on others.
Not all thought or emotion is rational, and sometimes, even I have difficulty discerning where some of my thoughts come from (one of my pet descriptions of myself is that I have been around the block so many times that I have lost my training wheels!).
Can you articulate what it is that you really want or need from posting on this site - it is my hunch that you were not conciously asking for suicide methods or support for doing so given the nature of this site - there is no judgement or criticism here, just wanting to understand more clearly what is that you want or need for yourself at this point in your life. Are you really a 'Shy Girl' and have difficulty communicating with others what you need - do you feel that people don't really listen to you or take you seriously? I would like to hear more from you....I take what you say seriously, just am not sure what your point is! Be good to yourself (and that does not always mean what feels good!)Marie
> Hello
>
> I'm open to rational discussion. I can see myself living a happy life in the future at times, but it is not likely to happen. I've already wasted too much of my famiy's money going to school. Even though it is possible for me to get A's when I'm feeling good, I will still never achieve my goals of doing research in a lab because I get too anxious. It is not a good thing to have shaky hands while pouring conc. sulfuric acid! :P I did really well last semester, but this semester started off on the wrong foot because of the anxiety...then came the stupid hosptial stay that further made me behind. I think the pdoc at the hospital totally over-reacted to my ASA overdose...I did careful research and made sure to take a non-lethal dose. Argh, I had to drop this semester because I couldn't study, because I was obsessed with researching methods and the effects of drugs....it's quite interesting. I must find out why one must check for pulmonary edema in an ASA overdose (unfortunately I haven't studied much of my physiology class). Anyways, without my family, I will probably be homeless. I don't have any life experience or friends. Perhaps tendancy towards suicide is selected for in evolution because it enables resources to be concentrated to where they are needed.
>
> In the meantime, I will see if indeed some of my unhappiness is biological in nature by seeing if the 20mg Celexa will make me feel better. I think it is working somewhat. I also need to take care of my hamster because my family is afraid of him.
>
> Thanks for reading :)
>
Posted by Phil on March 9, 2005, at 14:11:14
In reply to Rational suicide for competent adults, posted by Shy_Girl on March 8, 2005, at 21:17:33
Shy_Girl...
To me, rational suicide is an oxymoron. We'd rather have you around to shoot the breeze with.
We all count. We are all capable of love. Miracles do happen-people do care.
I've made a deal with myself to die a 'natural' death whether that means getting hit by a truck or croaking at 95 years old while chasing chicks. Heaven can wait. So can hell. : )
No matter the deal-I fight for my life-I don't surrender.Phil
Posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 14:37:48
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Shy_Girl, posted by kid47 on March 9, 2005, at 10:37:03
> ...I sense a dark sense of humor lurking behind your posts......my kinda' girl.
Hmmm...dark sense of humor, I like that. Only wish I could be humourous in the real world. I'm pretty outgoing in the cyberworld I guess :)
<snip>My life sucks alot sometimes, but dying doesn't seem to me to be all that much fun either. As far as friends go, hang around here for a while. Dr. Bob (the benevolent dictator at babble) is an OK guy and he's as geeky as a home made radio.(I say that with love)
Hurray for geeks! Geeks are totally underappreciated eh? That's my kind of life...one of science, reason and logic. Oh ya, relationships are cool too :P
<snip>Plus there are lots of fun, crazy types that drop in from time to time.
Neat...might be fun to observe how different people respond to different things.
<snip> but in my
> estimation and that of the wizard, you are just a victim of abberant brain chemistry causing confused thinking. That is soooo fixable.Hmmm...I do believe I have a biological tendancy towards an inhibited temperment. Perhaps there is some biological basis for my anxiety. The panic and dissociative symptoms I experienced as a young child may also support this hypothesis. Although I now wonder whether or not it was a hypersensitivity to low CO2 levels in response to strong wind that caused my panic attacks...does anyone know of any papers on this??
<snip>Try some of the possibly less permanent solutions that might present themselves. How 'bout we give it a year and see how things are. I find ice cream and Cheetos to be a great problem solver or at least pacifier. I'm not trying to be flip. I really REALLY do understand how painful day to day living can be for some of us. Stick around for a while, it could get interesting.
Of course there are no guarantees in life, therefore I cannot make any promises...but writing this was kindof fun, so I will stay and see where this goes.
Thanks for writing back :)
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2005, at 14:51:12
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » kid47, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 14:37:48
Yup - it's an option for anyone not in a straitjacket.
I figure as long as I keep that option tucked way away in a back pocket somewhere I can go on.
'Cause while it's an option - it's also the last option. And who knows - tomorrow they just might invent that happy pill.
Posted by kid47 on March 9, 2005, at 15:08:07
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » kid47, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 14:37:48
baby we got 'em. Just ask around. If you have an affinity for the more scientifically endowed, possibly somewhat socially challenged, you'll find them in abundance here. Many of us at babble spend an inordinate amount of our waking hours searching for deals on pocket protectors. I'm not just taking BS's either (no pun intended) We got your MS's and a fair amount of Ph.D's. Alas I am just a lowly BSEE but dam I'm handy around the house. If at all possible have a lovely day!!!!
Peace out
kid
Posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 15:40:12
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Shy_Girl, posted by Impermanence on March 9, 2005, at 13:13:10
> I can see some similarities between yourself and myself. I also think like you do, I think!! I don't see any problem with suicide apart from the misery you leave behind you with those that love you, that alone is reason enough not to kill yourself untill you really are homeless with nobody left.
Well...all I can really say is that suicide can be inherently selfish. In the egocentric view, the world ceases to exist when one perishes.
>There is no right or wrong other than what society has decided is right or wrong and good or evil.
I agree, but I do think that what society chooses to be right or wrong is not simply the result of whim and fancy. There must be inherent advantages for humans of all different cultures to develop similar beliefs about right and wrong. Now, whether or not these tendancies to conform are 'good' or 'bad' may depend on the particular environment at a particular time. The core beliefs about right and wrong seem consistent and longlasting, so perhaps they have been advantageous in the past...it remains to be seen whether or not they will in the future.
> I've been through four serious suicide attempts over the last four years, they were all while blind drunk but I have spent countless sober hours dreaming of having a bottle of barbiturates to switch off my consciousness permanently... I was just fed up with the game of life. I was tired. I could see a bright future, I was pretty happy with things although I was only existing and not living...I'm sorry you had to go through so much. Four attempts...that's rough. The game of life...I know what you mean...it seems meaningless at times. From the outside, everyone and everything seems the same...people living to work and working to live...choosing to conform because that is what is comforable. I think this is a misconception though, because we are too egocentric. If I could somehow walk in another person's shoes, I think I would find most people have wonderfully detailed and intricate live...truly unique.
<But with all that I still Love reading and learning. I get a hard on reading up on astrology, chemistry, physics, technology, history, politics, conspiracies... I Love movies, music, games all kinds of art. I sit in wonder at the chaos and beauty of the universe.I recently got into astronomy (sorry, no astrology for me!). I've always been interested in learning about the cosmos. Camping out in dark skies, checking out telescopes and gagets, looking at galaxies, star clusters, nebulas and meteors, wondering about superstring theory...it's awe inspiring.
> Over the years I've become very spiritually aware (and I don't mean religious, I have no time for that crap)
It's difficult for me to grasp the whole spirituality concept. The universe is seemingly wonderfully complex, but for me it is enough to be able to explain parts of it. Meditation and stuff is good because it calms one down.
< I guess what I'm trying to say is it's O.K. to commit suicide, but it's crazy to do it so early in your life. Give yourself time, a lot of time before you make a decision that you can never ever go back on.
Time is relative. I don't think it matters whether or not I'm young or not. I'm just going to do whatever feels good at the moment. It is however, highly unlikely I'm going to end my life at this time because I live with my parents and I cannot get together my plans for a peaceful death.
Thanks for telling your story : )
Posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2005, at 16:19:23
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Impermanence, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 15:40:12
> Well...all I can really say is that suicide can be inherently selfish. In the egocentric view, the world ceases to exist when one perishes.
Yes indeed. If Berkely was right that 'to be is to be perceived' and if he was wrong about the existence of god then it follows that the universe ceases to exist once we have died (assuming that death is the end).
But maybe Berkely wasn't right...
I am a realist. I believe there is a real world (which is unfortunately inaccessible to us as a matter of principle). But what is left is the inter-personal world. Which is made up of our collective experiences in the world (a meeting of minds and world). Gosh, listen to me ramble...
> >There is no right or wrong other than what society has decided is right or wrong and good or evil.> I agree, but I do think that what society chooses to be right or wrong is not simply the result of whim and fancy. There must be inherent advantages for humans of all different cultures to develop similar beliefs about right and wrong. Now, whether or not these tendancies to conform are 'good' or 'bad' may depend on the particular environment at a particular time. The core beliefs about right and wrong seem consistent and longlasting, so perhaps they have been advantageous in the past...it remains to be seen whether or not they will in the future.
Hmm. Anybody want to join in the 'everything is relative' thread below???
> The game of life...I know what you mean...it seems meaningless at times. From the outside, everyone and everything seems the same...people living to work and working to live...choosing to conform because that is what is comforable. I think this is a misconception though, because we are too egocentric. If I could somehow walk in another person's shoes, I think I would find most people have wonderfully detailed and intricate live...truly unique.Yeah. And if you kill yourself then all of us miss out. And you miss out on us too :-(
> I sit in wonder at the chaos and beauty of the universe.Isn't that a reason just there?
> I recently got into astronomy (sorry, no astrology for me!). I've always been interested in learning about the cosmos. Camping out in dark skies, checking out telescopes and gagets, looking at galaxies, star clusters, nebulas and meteors, wondering about superstring theory...it's awe inspiring.And there is another one there.
> It's difficult for me to grasp the whole spirituality concept. The universe is seemingly wonderfully complex, but for me it is enough to be able to explain parts of it. Meditation and stuff is good because it calms one down.Hmm. But maybe the microcosim is the macrocosim in miniture. Maybe to understand the parts properly you do gain an understanding on the whole. Maybe they come as a package deal. One of my profs used to say 'there are two ways to become wise. One is to study one thing in as much detail as possible. The other is to study as much of everything as possible'. The thought being that you end up in the same place in the end.
I was in a similar place maybe 5 years back. I wanted to be a philosopher but was told I had so very many cognitive errors and was incapable of logical thought
:-(
:-(
:-(
So I thought I may as well kill myself because I was in so much pain and I thought I could never do what it was that I most wanted to do. And what I most wanted to do was my only reason for living.I read the Myth of Sysiphus. And I decided to be defiant to all those f*cking clinicians who kept telling me I could never do it. I thought I owed it to me to give it the best shot I possibly could. And so I gave it my best shot. I started back part time and it was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
And now...
I am waiting on my PhD applications.
Whether I manage to get in or not I managed to put together a competitive application or two. And I have applied to insitiutions that are very hard to get in to. I could stay where I am. Could have started my PhD at the beginning of last year on a scholarship in fact. But no, I want to go to the best place I can...But It won't be the end of the world, the end of my world if I don't get in. Because I don't have to live in defiance anymore. Because along the way I found other reasons to live. Friends. Enjoyment in other things.
All I am wanting to say is that maybe you are feeling so bad because you think that you won't be able to do what it is that you most want to do (lab work). But I reckon that you will figure that out and you will be able to do it. If you really want it and if you are prepared to try really hard and find some people to help you out.
It will be the hardest thing you have ever done, don't get me wrong. Much harder than just killing yourself. But that is what makes it so worthwhile in the end.
Posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 17:00:04
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Shy_Girl, posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2005, at 16:19:23
> Yes indeed. If Berkely was right that 'to be is to be perceived' and if he was wrong about the existence of god then it follows that the universe ceases to exist once we have died (assuming that death is the end).
I must admit, I have no idea who Berkely is : P. I've never studied any philosophy...except for Bioethics, aka medical ethics. Philosophy is very intriguing to me because it is so very logical. I find it fascinating that math is in fact a type of philosophy.
> > I sit in wonder at the chaos and beauty of the universe.
>
> Isn't that a reason just there?Actually, the above quote about the universe is from the Kid47
> I was in a similar place maybe 5 years back. I wanted to be a philosopher but was told I had so very many cognitive errors and was incapable of logical thought
> :-(
> :-(
> :-(
> So I thought I may as well kill myself because I was in so much pain and I thought I could never do what it was that I most wanted to do. And what I most wanted to do was my only reason for living.
>
>
> And now...
> I am waiting on my PhD applications.Wow, that's wonderful. Glad to see you are trying to be who you want to be.
> All I am wanting to say is that maybe you are feeling so bad because you think that you won't be able to do what it is that you most want to do (lab work). But I reckon that you will figure that out and you will be able to do it. If you really want it and if you are prepared to try really hard and find some people to help you out.
Yes, I'm upset that academically, things haven't gone as I have expected. If I hadn't screwed things up with my mental breakdowns and skipping exams etc, I would be getting my B.Sc with honours this year...but instead I had to switch to a concentrated program and need another year to graduate. I was starting to think that maybe I'm not smart enough to graduate, but then after getting the A's I did last semester I began to see hope. Then the stupid 6hr labs I had this semester totally messed me up. Sympathetic NS system overdrive...headaches after every lab, horrible sweating, blushing, pounding heart, mind going blank. Ironically, the prof. said I was doing very well and couldn't understand why I had dropped the class.
By then, it was too late for my other classes. I hadn't been able to concentrate and midterms were fast approaching. I came up with the stupid idea to get midterms deferred by presenting symptoms induced by a non-lethal dose of ASA to the doctor.
I have some hope though, I can still suceed even if I'm a little late in starting right??
Thanks for reading : )
Posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 17:03:10
In reply to Re: school matters, no death for now » alexandra_k, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 17:00:04
sorry, the quote about the universe is from "impermanance"
Posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2005, at 17:43:53
In reply to Re: school matters, no death for now » alexandra_k, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 17:00:04
> I must admit, I have no idea who Berkely is : P.
Berkely was a Bishop, but he was also a philosopher. One of the Empiricists. Actually I think he is spelt Berkeley. Whoops.. He was an idealist in the sense that he thought that the only things that exist are ideas. We are supposed to be ideas in the mind of god. But if you don't buy the existence of god then all that is left of his metaphysics is ideas in the minds of people (and animals). So when there are ideas no longer - reality ceases.
>I've never studied any philosophy...except for Bioethics, aka medical ethics.
I haven't studied much ethics... But I dabble every now and then.
>Philosophy is very intriguing to me because it is so very logical. I find it fascinating that math is in fact a type of philosophy.
:-)
Well... Russell thought that math could be reduced to logic (via set theory). But he was most probably wrong, it seems... You can put 'philosophy of' in front of anything you like and it counts as philosophy. Physics, chemistry, biology, art, literature, math, science, etc etc. I guess we take the 'study everything as much as possible' route.
> Actually, the above quote about the universe is from the Kid47Whoops. But isn't it a good reason anyways???
> Wow, that's wonderful. Glad to see you are trying to be who you want to be.Yes. And I think you owe it to yourself to give it your best shot to do the same.
> Yes, I'm upset that academically, things haven't gone as I have expected. If I hadn't screwed things up with my mental breakdowns and skipping exams etc, I would be getting my B.Sc with honours this year...Oh I hear you there. I managed one year full time (1997). Then I had a breakdown the following year (1998) and had compassionate withdrawals. I tried to return in the second semester (1998) and compassionate withdrawals again. Tried to return (1999) and my brother died (tragically) - compassionate withdrawals again. I was told that I had one more chance but that my history clearly indicated that I was not capable of academic study. Had some time off (in despair)... Read Camus... Enrolled part time in 2001. Got through. The hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Full time the next year. My first degree took me ages. Hardest thing I have ever done. But once that was done you would not believe how I didn't think about dying all the time anymore. I felt happy sometimes. Glad to be alive sometimes. And it has only gotten better since then.
I just share that in order to illustrate that it does not matter how much time it takes. How much time you have off. How many compassionate withdrawals you need (they don't affect your GPA). Whether you need to study part time. What matters is building your confidence. Once you realise that you are doing it and you can do it then the pressure (eventually) comes off.
>Then the stupid 6hr labs I had this semester totally messed me up. Sympathetic NS system overdrive...headaches after every lab, horrible sweating, blushing, pounding heart, mind going blank.
Yuk. The difference between an arts and a science degree indeed (6 hr labs). But as you said you ARE doing it. You are doing very well. You just need to really internalise that you are doing very well and you are doing ok. You are ok.
> I have some hope though, I can still suceed even if I'm a little late in starting right??Absolutely :-)
Oh yes, indeed.
Posted by Impermanence on March 9, 2005, at 19:04:51
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Impermanence, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 15:40:12
>> Well...all I can really say is that suicide can be inherently selfish. In the egocentric view, the world ceases to exist when one perishes.
Yes suicide is selfish, which is why I'm probably still here as I could never intentionally put my mother through that kind of pain, but thats also a form of selfishness masquerading as charity. Thinking I'm still here because I love my mother and would not want to hurt her, "I'm so great for sticking it out for somebody else", the ego is always there like a dark shadow. Every act is selfish if you get to the root of it. True selfless charity is virtually nonexistent. Even saints worked with a goal of heaven in mind lol, I'm such a cynic!!Something pulled me back from the brink of madness four times, love, fear, panic? who knows, I was drunk. Suicide attempts 90% of the time are a cry for help, it's unconsciously selfish. It's also a road to recovery, it's the end of the line and time to get off and try something different like accept help and let everybody know how bad you're feeling. But is suicide, when the indivudal with nobody left to take responsibility for selfish? Maybe, well it is thinking of yourself, you could be out helping others!! If the observer believes a certain moral is absolute and the indivudal does not have the right to end his or her own life on their own terms then the observer is too being selfish, subjecting the indivudal to his or her own dogma!!!! It's also selfish for a family member or friend to try to stop someone committing suicide, why should they have to suffer life to keep others happy?? The realm of selfishness goes on and on. Maybe selfishness is an illusion? after all it's all in our heads, a chemical reaction??
The idea of the world ceasing to exist after I went never entered my mind. It was I who would cease to exist.
>> I agree, but I do think that what society chooses to be right or wrong is not simply the result of whim and fancy. There must be inherent advantages for humans of all different cultures to develop similar beliefs about right and wrong. Now, whether or not these tendancies to conform are 'good' or 'bad' may depend on the particular environment at a particular time. The core beliefs about right and wrong seem consistent and longlasting, so perhaps they have been advantageous in the past...it remains to be seen whether or not they will in the future.Of course, for we all want an easy life at the end of the day. Nobody (well most) don't want to see children being hacked up for dog food like cattle now do they?? But is it right to hack up cattle?? Well I for one don't get emotionally attached to many cattle and I've been programmed to believe it's natural, so I have no problem eating steak and feeding them to my dog. Eating my dog is a disturbing thought to me but I'm sure they would have no problem sticking him in the wok in China. And try finding a burger in India LOL. Morals are relative to the minds and cultures that thought them up to make life eaiser for themselves but they are not absoulute. A suicide bomber in Palestine is a martyr, but in israel is an evil terrorist!!
>> I'm sorry you had to go through so much. Four attempts...that's rough. The game of life...I know what you mean...it seems meaningless at times. From the outside, everyone and everything seems the same...people living to work and working to live...choosing to conform because that is what is comforable. I think this is a misconception though, because we are too egocentric. If I could somehow walk in another person's shoes, I think I would find most people have wonderfully detailed and intricate live...truly unique.
We all carry the ego around. "Ego is a need, it's a social need, a social by-product. You have two centers. One center you come with, which is given by existence itself. That is the self. And the other center, which is created by the society, is the ego. It is a false thing and a very great trick. Through the ego society is controlling you. You have to behave in a certain way, because only then does the society appreciate you. You have to walk in a certain way, you have to laugh in a certain way, you have to follow certain manners, a morality, a code. Only then will the society appreciate you, and if it doesn't, your ego will be shaken. And when the ego is shaken, you don't know where you are, who you are.
The ego is not individual. Ego is a social phenomenon, it is society, its not you. But it gives you a function in the society, a hierarchy in the society. And if you remain satisfied with it, you will miss the whole opportunity of finding the self."
And that's why we are all so miserable and afrid. A world full of fear, and all negative emotion stems from fear. The ego comes continuously in conflict with others because every ego is so unconfident about itself. It has to be, its a false thing. Its ways are so subtle and cunning, you have to be very, very alert, only then will you see it. Don't try to be humble. Just try to see that all misery, all anguish comes through it. Meditation is a great aid to seeing through the illusions of the ego, it's not an easy job but when you start deprogramming your brain life just gets easier and easier. Thats why I feel like an outcast at times, I don't want to be part of the silly game. Push a button - get a reaction!!! It's so trivial. I like to just observe, let the chaos unfold before me while I smoke a spliff lol. When it comes to politics, war and capitalism gone insane though I tend to get heated!!!
>> I recently got into astronomy (sorry, no astrology for me!). I've always been interested in learning about the cosmos. Camping out in dark skies, checking out telescopes and gagets, looking at galaxies, star clusters, nebulas and meteors, wondering about superstring theory...it's awe inspiring.Wooops LOL, *ment astronomy*, thanks for pointing that out for me. I have a telescope, the creators on the moon look amazing. Its very hard to observe anything else with it, everythings just so far away lol. I'm fascinated with the universe. Did you ever see the movie K-Pax, Well Kevin Spacey's character has a theroy that the universe has been exploding and imploding on itself infinitely, I believe this to be true, which in turn supports the theory of the big bang. It makes a lot of sense when you think about. If super strings go beyond our universe and continue infinitly it would explain why the universe might strech out like a balloon and then is forced back on itself on the path to another big bang and on and on. Just like the breath of life inflating - deflating / exploding - imploding to a single point of enegery so powerful it has the force to give us the universe we know of. Maybe our whole universe is the size of a to particle, a quark inside an atom inside another universe. No matter how far out or in we look we find no end!!!! I believe there are hundreds of billions of universes never mind stars... It blows my mind sometimes thinking about it all, it can leave you feeling like a meaningless blip in a sea of neverending chaos but then why do I have a universe in my mind?? Perhaps there is an infinite plane of consciousness, our low level mutant brains somehow developed the ability to trap it and build an ego around it?? Maybe we are the universe evolving to observe itself??
>> It's difficult for me to grasp the whole spirituality concept. The universe is seemingly wonderfully complex, but for me it is enough to be able to explain parts of it. Meditation and stuff is good because it calms one down.Thats the beauty of spirituality, it's about unlearning, deprogramming your mind of all it's ever been programmed to believe. Going back to nothingness, your true self, perfection.
>> Time is relative. I don't think it matters whether or not I'm young or not. I'm just going to do whatever feels good at the moment. It is however, highly unlikely I'm going to end my life at this time because I live with my parents and I cannot get together my plans for a peaceful death.
Time is relative yes, but so is your anxiety and your pain and suffering and loneliness. Everything is always changing, as my name says; Impermanence!!! Nothing lasts, in two years you may be the happiest girl on the planet. I think it does matter that you're young, you will grow to appreacate the wonder that is life as you grow older. The things that bother you now could be like a minor inconvenience in a years time. Life may mean more to you in the future, you may make somebody happy, save a life. Bring more people into the world, discover a cure for aids. The possibilities are endless. You always have the option of suicide and death is inevitable so maybe hang on for a few more years. Why waste such a beautiful intelligent mind, you are one in 6.2 billion.
Anyway who am I to talk. Sorry about the long pointless rant lol!!!xxx
Posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2005, at 22:17:05
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Shy_Girl, posted by Impermanence on March 9, 2005, at 19:04:51
>I'm fascinated with the universe. Did you ever see the movie K-Pax, Well Kevin Spacey's character has a theroy that the universe has been exploding and imploding on itself infinitely, I believe this to be true, which in turn supports the theory of the big bang.
Yes. That is a proper scientific theory - I saw the movie too :-)
If that happens... If that happens... Then is it slightly different with each unfolding, or is it the same thing over and over again, do you suppose? Perhaps we have all been here. On Babble. Just like we are now. Many many times before. And we have had this discussion many many times before. And so forth... Or maybe I never even got to exist last time...
>Just like the breath of life inflating - deflating / exploding - imploding to a single point of enegery so powerful it has the force to give us the universe we know of. Maybe our whole universe is the size of a to particle, a quark inside an atom inside another universe. No matter how far out or in we look we find no end!!!! I believe there are hundreds of billions of universes never mind stars... It blows my mind sometimes thinking about it all, it can leave you feeling like a meaningless blip in a sea of neverending chaos but then why do I have a universe in my mind?? Perhaps there is an infinite plane of consciousness, our low level mutant brains somehow developed the ability to trap it and build an ego around it?? Maybe we are the universe evolving to observe itself??
:-)
Dennett reckons that we (conscious human beings) are the ecosystems / earths / universes nervous system. Its conscience. That we will (or at least we have the ability to) evolve to care for it.
Posted by Susan47 on March 10, 2005, at 10:38:36
In reply to Re: Why death is not an option for me » Impermanence, posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2005, at 22:17:05
Okay now this is getting incredibly interesting, girls. I'm not a brain as you two are but what beautiful theories to explore ... thinking about the universe is the one thing that doesn't make me feel alone. It's incredible, thinking too that our conscious may be part of an infinite sea of consciousness, consciousness in everything no matter how small, creations all; we part of it and it part of us, time; each unit of time broken up with a consciousness of its own, accessible at any time ... whew, Susan, take a valium girl you no longer make any sense..... at all ... where'd that moment go? Where in the universe is it stored, and how can I live in it forever???
Posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2005, at 12:27:22
In reply to Re: school matters, no death for now » alexandra_k, posted by Shy_Girl on March 9, 2005, at 17:00:04
I went back to school late, finally got my BS when I was 36. And I wasn't the oldest one there by a long shot.
As long as you have breath it's not too late.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2005, at 12:32:14
In reply to If you're looking for geeks...... » Shy_Girl, posted by kid47 on March 9, 2005, at 15:08:07
Ah, but do you still have a slide rule and know how to use it?
Posted by 10derHeart on March 11, 2005, at 1:06:51
In reply to Re: Why death is an option for me » Shy_Girl, posted by Impermanence on March 9, 2005, at 13:13:10
Impermanence,I enjoyed reading your post, and was sorry to hear you've gone through suicide attempts and lots of other traumatic things in your life. I can't imagine how scary some of that must have been. I hope you are finding more peace now. When reading, I did feel there were a couple of comments that maybe could have been worded better, in light of the civility rules. For example…
<< The moral and religious issues as any intelligent rational people understand are nothing more than man made philosophies…….>>
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I don’t intend to infringe on your right to free speech. But when I read this, I felt a little demeaned just for not holding the same view as you. My question would be, are you saying that someone who *doesn’t* think moral and religious issues are, "nothing more than man made philosophies," is unintelligent and irrational? (My beliefs are completely different, yet most people who know me still seem to consider me fairly rational and intelligent. Not trying to be sarcastic, just reinforce my point.) Seems like this could be considered a little uncivil. But that's only my reaction, and I may have misinterpreted your meaning. If so, I apologize. Civility is, of course, ultimately Dr. Bob's call.
<<Over the years I've become very spiritually aware (and I don't mean religious, I have no time for that crap)>>
I have also become spiritually aware. In my case, it is in the context of a certain religious tradition. Therefore, I did feel put down when you described religion as "crap." To be blunt, this statement personally offended me. Perhaps you could have just said something like, "I’ve become very spiritually aware, but I don’t mean by following any particular religion or belief system, as none of those work for me." Or something clearer - that was just my clumsy attempt. Strong language, as long as it expresses your opinion without a sense of scorn, or "name-calling" that comes with a phrase like, "…I have no time for that crap," I think would be still be fine.
Wording things carefully here at Babble, especially when it comes to deeply personal issues such as religious beliefs, should allow everyone to have a voice without causing each other distress. Or at least minimize it as much as possible. Does that make sense?
<< I guess what I'm trying to say is it's O.K. to commit suicide, but it's crazy to do it so early in your life. Give yourself time, a lot of time before you make a decision that you can never ever go back on. Life may suck right now but you have to admit it's pretty incredible too. >>
No offense taken here, I just had questions. Since you told Shy Girl you think it’s "crazy" to commit suicide "so early in your life," at what point would it be okay? Is there a certain age, or maturity level, or something else, that makes it more acceptable to you? I noticed and loved how you appreciate all the awesome and, as you wrote, "incredible" stuff about life, so since life keeps changing for better and for worse, how would you know "when" was the right time to go ahead with suicide? I can’t work it out, but I thought that maybe you already had? I do not intend disrespect, just honestly thinking through what you wrote...
I posted in the spirit of trying to help us all stay within the civility guidelines. I expect the same scrutiny from you and everyone else. Including anything in this post, of course, that I wrote that may be a problem. I just think it's really important to keep trying, bit by bit, to understand each other better. Sometimes for me, that means speaking up when it's uncomfortable to do so. Respectfully, 10derHeart
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.