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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
I don't have a life.
My life is therapy. This *does* work, in a way, but at some point it might be nice for me to actually get a life.
But I find that there are "life" things that I have forgotten, so maybe you Babblers can help me out.
I find that most of my relationships (both IRL and online) kind of slide into pseudo-therapy kinds of relationships. Where all we do together is talk about "issues" and offer "support". Actually, I like this fine - I like offering support, and I like getting it. I find other people's issues interesting and I learn a lot about myself through understanding other people. But I think that this way of relating to people helps me stay "stuck" in my depression (since depression is so much fun, why should I get better?). It is truly scary for me, though to think about getting better because I no longer remember how people are *supposed* to interact with other people.
So, what *do* friends talk about? How much *do* they do for each other? What *are* reasonable boundaries?
P.S. To those who I "talk" to frequently, I am trying to figure out how to ask this question (and I really do need an answer) without making you unhappy. I value so much the friendships I have, and they have been so important to me - and they will continue to be important to me. I'm just hoping to find a little more balance - and replace some of the time that I've been staring at the walls with more productive and satisfying activities.
Posted by Angela2 on May 3, 2004, at 17:13:32
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
Hi Fallsfall,
You have not met me yet, I am new to the board, but I read your post and want to reach out.
What I've been doing to meet friends is going to a local youth group that has a religious affiliation coincidentally, also, talking about something I am interested in helps get the conversation flowing.
Angela
Posted by rainyday on May 3, 2004, at 17:30:37
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
I think that being involved in an activity rather than getting together and talking, would help. Also I am one of those women who believe than women get closer by talking, then they do activities together; and men start with doing activities and get around to talking. It's been true in my case, anyway.
What I have tried to do (with varying success) has been to have people over for a "spa party" where you all try on facial masks and do your nails and look all silly together. I am very aware that I make friends with people I work with (or go to school with, etc) and as soon as that connection has been broken by moving on, so has the communication and friendship.
Perhaps we should regard it as a transient thing. Something that helps us now, but might be left behind as our lives move on??
Posted by justyourlaugh on May 3, 2004, at 17:34:57
In reply to Re: What do friends do?, posted by Angela2 on May 3, 2004, at 17:13:32
falls,
what i do is get totally hammered, so the next day i dont remember how uncomfortable i was..
oh wait, thats how i lost all my friends..
hummm..
i would love to hear some pointers aswell..hi angel..
nice to see you again:)jyl
Posted by rainyday on May 3, 2004, at 17:48:29
In reply to Re: What do friends do?, posted by justyourlaugh on May 3, 2004, at 17:34:57
Ok, so I am a bad person to give advice. I do try to not worry about being embarassed about approaching people. The current group I work with are a bunch of duds. They all profess to be really interested in
getting together after work
going shopping
having coffeebut they have all, all, ALL not come through. It is shattering to someone who finds it hard to reach out. I decided I am just looking in the wrong place.
Last week, when I broke down and cried in a meditation class, now THAT would have been a great opportunity to get to know people. But I was too embarassed. It comes down to trust for me.
OK - so don't take any of my advice! I'm not church-y, I don't sew or knit or do any socialable acitivities. I read, for goodness sake. How antisocial can you get?? You don't exactly go to the library and start talking to people looking at the stacks!
Posted by justyourlaugh on May 3, 2004, at 18:17:25
In reply to Re: What do friends do?, posted by rainyday on May 3, 2004, at 17:48:29
wow rainy,
are you one of those people who like to sit in the middle of the book isles and read? like me?
i would come up to you in the library rainy..
i spend hours there a week. no one had ever come up to me unless they want me to move.."wanna move on over to the back table and read together?"j
Posted by rainyday on May 3, 2004, at 18:38:23
In reply to Re: What do friends do? » rainyday, posted by justyourlaugh on May 3, 2004, at 18:17:25
I love to read and I find that places like Chapters are TOO PUBLIC for the llke of me.
The book club it way too snottty for me. Too many lawyers and dotors. Each month's book cub meeting was more about the place instead of the the material.
I want to review the book I have read instead of rating the danishes that were served.
Posted by noa on May 3, 2004, at 19:14:18
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
FF, I'm impressed with you, once again--your insight, your striving.
I think it could be fun to suggest to friends doing something diferent, like rainyday's spa idea. Brainstorm a bunch of things--including offbeat things that you can invite a couple of friends to do with you, just for a change of pace. Having an occasional activity get together rather than just talking about issues could make the talking get togethers feel more meaningful.
OK, I'm starting a list of wacky ideas (well, maybe not necessarily wacky things-- unless, of course you never think of doing them):
Bowling
Games--find a local club or a place to learn a new game. Bridge? Mah Jong? (Aside---I recently saw a flyer for learning Mah Jong, which is coming back in popularity. I would NEVER have imagined that I'd even THINK of learning mahjong but this poster caught my eye for some reason. Not that I'll actually follow through or anything....)
Join up with a one-time volunteer project together.
Take a bead jewelry class together.
Take an autocare class together. Sometimes they have special ones for women only--so it's non-intimidating.
Take CPR together.
OK, I'm out of wacky ideas for now....
Posted by coral on May 3, 2004, at 20:12:58
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
Friends share --- the woes, victories, mundanities (is there such a word?) of life. My friends scuffle over ideas but not to the point of cutting into the quick.
I have a circle, albeit small, of friends (both pre/during/post the major depressive episode I experienced), and the knots that hold the friendships are a true sense of wishing well for the other person as well as a true sense of being able to collapse and receive comfort. (Not to mention that I can rant about my WH with their knowing it's a spat and understanding.)
Coral
Posted by octopusprime on May 3, 2004, at 20:56:42
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
but i have decided that i'm too grown up for that and i'm hiring movers. :-/
i dunno what to say ff, i feel like i have lots of acquaintances and very few true friends.
i do the activity stuff with the acquaintances - watch the hockey game, have a bbq, go hiking, go skiing, go to the beach, drum, have a painting party, go to political meetings, learn to square dance, eat lunch, go to a concert, go to movies, etc. by and large these are people i met at work, at school, at an adult class, or in the political meetings. but a lot of these people don't really know a lot about me or my life. they wouldn't know if i was looking for a new job or if somebody close to me died.
there's only one guy that transcends the acquaintance boundary to friend. :-/ he did help me move, though. we had boundary issues but those have been resolved. mostly it's a space thing - i see him every two weeks or so now so we don't wind up bludgeoning each other with our issues and we have space to breathe. we just talk about stuff - not usually anything heavy, but sometimes. not a soul spilling kind of heavy, anyway. he knows of my mental health issues but doesn't analyze them with me.
and i have friends that were once real life friends, but are now far away internet chat buddies. they get all the good dirt but none of the fun activity stuff. weird.
i don't know if this helps or not.
Posted by karen_kay on May 3, 2004, at 21:04:54
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
((((falls)))) my dear. my friends and i talk. my closst friends, that i have known for years and years, talk about therapy and how it's going. they tell me about their sex lives, or lack thereof. they tell me about their new puppies or tattoos. they tell me everything. but, those are my closest friends that i have known for years.
my 'newer' friends and i talk. we play pool. we talk about books we have read. we don't come right out and discuss boundaries, as most people know and respect those. i have one 'newer' friend who i found out is also dx with bipolar disorder. i found out recently that when i was down she was too. however, she didn't stop by. since she was a 'newer' friend, she had her own support system, as did i. but when she did stop by later and asked how i was doing, we talked. i found out she jumped out of a moving vehicle. i felt bad for not being there for her, but she also had her own support system in place. she gave me tips on how to get through, and i gave her tips as well. we talked and drank sodas. it helped. later that week, we had a picnic on her porch. that helped bring me out of my funk.
since i'm a college student, i can make friends in class. i usually don't approach people, but they approach me. perhaps if you feel up to it, you can take an art class, or play cards, or join a political party and help there. there are many ways to volunteer or get involved and with your beautiful personality, i guarantee people will approach you falls. and you can start slow. having coffee at your house, or there's or a coffee shop. or playing cards or board games. that's always fun.
since you work at the library, are there regulars who you find interesting? or that read the same books you do? you can start there and shyly say that you really liked that book or the author. that's a start.
i understand what you are saying dear about being pulled into depression by being surrounded by it. but, in my personal experience, i've found that i've been upllifted by being here. i'm not arguing with you in any way, please don't get me wrong darling, and i do completely see your point. i think it's very important to find that balance between discussions of depression and other things as well. when i talk to my friends, i don't just talk abuut the gloom and doom. we talk about happy things as well. when we talk, we always end on a happy note. that's very important to me and them as well. and sometimes we talk about the sour points of life, but that's not nearly as much as we talk about the finer points. if it's rough to find them, we can always make them up. the flowers, a book, something on tv, a film, coffee, how beautiful we are... they are there, it sometimes just takes some searching to find them.
((((falls))))) my sweet, perhaps you can try reading nacey drew for a while. or sheldon smith? try something like that as well. you shouldn't have any problems making friends dear. you're so wonderful people should be flocking to you. don't worry about making friends. just find that balance between therapy and you dear. you are wonderful, let everyone know it. we see it here.
Posted by Escher Dementian on May 4, 2004, at 8:56:19
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
One of my very very good friends _just_ emailed me a "know your friends" little questionaire... part humorous, part wonderful information... We're working on 'polishing' it, then circulating it among our own friends with an invite to add another question on the bottom before sending it to other friends.
Amazingly well thought of and basic appropriate questions/answers are turning up.Would you like me to post a copy of the (blank) questionaire when it's finished?
Escher
Posted by Penny on May 4, 2004, at 9:40:18
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
I wish I knew...
I don't have many friends IRL, I have 'aquaintances', but not folks I can just hang out with and do whatever. And my closest friend can be pretty demanding at times. I think our favorite thing to do together is eat. :-b
But I do have a good friend from college (who I need to call...) who lives not too far from me. We get together every now and again, and just ... well... have fun. We've gone to musicals, dinner, shopping - just hanging out. And I'll tell her about therapy, and she'll tell me about her mom, and we'll just talk. But she doesn't have depression - she's got to be one of the most mentally healthy people I know - so the topic of depression isn't a lasting one, which is fine with me.
I think, IMO anyway, that having 'support' friends and friends that you discuss depression and therapy stuff with doesn't keep you depressed. I guess it would depend - I had a good friend (best friend) from college, and we used to be attached at the hip. I had other friends, but she and I were always together. After graduation, we moved to cities about 1 hour apart from each other, and I started on my mental illness journey. She, as she had moved to a town near her family, didn't understand what I was going through - and when I began forming new attachments, she became jealous. I eventually had to separate myself from her - in that case, it was the friends who would talk therapy and depression with me who were helping me grow.
Anyway - as for your specific questions:
What do friends talk about? IMO, anything they want to talk about. Typically, you talk about what's going on in your life and things that matter to you when you're friends. Not to be confused with aquaintances, where you likely make small talk about nothing. But friends talk about things that matter to them - and if that's depression and therapy, well, so be it.How much do they do for each other? I think this depends on what feels comfortable to you. My closest friend now tends to be somewhat (lol) codependent. Thank goodness, she's getting herself back into therapy! I don't do well with suffocating people, though I can attract them (which says something about me, I guess). She's the one I was living with - and living with her was overly smothering. Now that we're not roommates, I feel much closer to her. I would do anything for her, *as long as* it didn't require me to put my own mental well-being at risk. I have to put myself first and foremost in every situation. I think our friendship has improved and gotten healthier, but can still grow.
What are reasonable boundaries? Again, depends on what you are comfortable with. Personally, I think that a healthy friendship will enable the involved parties to enjoy each other's company without feeling obligated to spend an excessive amount of time together. My healthiest friendship is such a situation - when we see each other, it's as though no time has passed. But when we try to get together, if something important comes up that waylays our plans, there are no hurt feelings. I, personally, don't do well in situations where I find myself afraid of having to cancel on someone b/c I don't feel well or whatever.
Anyway, I don't know if this is any help or not. It sounds to me, falls, that you have friends and that what you are looking for is other people to hang out with. Those people may or may not be 'friends'. If you are feeling good enough to meet more people, then I second (or third or whatever) the sentiments of others who said to take a class or join a club or whatever. As you know, I'm joining a chorus to meet more people. I wouldn't mind that expanding into 'friendships' of sorts with folks that I can perhaps do other things with. But if it doesn't, well, that's okay too.
Is there a way you could invite some of your IRL friends with whom you share depression and therapy stuff (and who are feeling up to it) to do other things? Do you know what other things you enjoy now? Are you feeling up to it?
I certainly understand the "my life is therapy" feeling. And as my T often tells me, I don't have to be depressed to be in therapy. I would say the same goes for your depression/therapy friends. You can still offer support and receive support from them without being in the Pit.
((((fallsfall))))
I apologize is this is totally incomprehensible!
P
Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 9:46:42
In reply to Timely asking! » fallsfall, posted by Escher Dementian on May 4, 2004, at 8:56:19
Thank you all for your thoughts.
I work in a library, but it is tiny. It is hard to hide in the stacks! I do meet nice people at the library.
Octopus, the thought of moving is terrifying, but you are right real friends help you move.
Angela2, welcome to Babble.
I think that my fear is that even if I am in an activity with people that I will try to connect TOO deeply. That I don't know how to just *be* and have fun. That everything has to be serious and meaningful. I have always had a problem doing things just to enjoy them (when I ice skate, or play piano, I am alway "practicing", "working" on something - I don't know how to do something that doesn't have a future benefit). Even when I go to do something "fun" (like go bowling with my daughter), I am working on making sure it is "fun" and that she understands the physics of where to aim the ball and that both she and I "understand" bowling better at the end so we can *do* it BETTER. There has to be a goal or a purpose.
So, I need to learn how to have fun.
And I need to learn how to relate to people without worrying about their "issues" and how I can help them. I guess I am so used to the "therapy" mindset, where you are completely honest and open. I think I need to learn how to be an acquaintance.
It is such hard work to call people up who I sort-of-kind-of know. And figure out scheduling and what they would like to do and what I would like to do and how and when we can do it together.
I worry that if I try to do "fun" things with people who I have shared deep feelings with that I won't be able to stay "light". And if we do "try" to stay light, that I'll spend all my time worrying if I'm "staying light" correctly.
I think that I have to accept that it will be hard and uncomfortable for a while, but that I need to expend the effort. That the long term gains will be worth it.
Thank you all for helping me think this through.
Posted by Penny on May 4, 2004, at 10:10:55
In reply to Great responses! Thanks, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 9:46:42
Hmmm...that is a good point, and, honestly, falls, I'm not sure I know how to just "be" either. In fact, I think I drive some people crazy, and away, by my "need to know" and "need to understand" nature.
But my T says that's who I am. It's what makes me "me".
Are you ever able to "just be" when you're alone?
P
Posted by tabitha on May 4, 2004, at 11:38:59
In reply to Great responses! Thanks, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 9:46:42
it's hard to find 'fun' for me too. I like being with people who make me laugh, but they are rare. It's usually me trying to make them laugh. I can have a social bubbly nature but it's hard to find situations where it comes out. Sometimes I think all the therapy has suppressed my fun side. I'm so used to being in therapy mode, where I'm decidedly not social, bubbly, or fun. I quit going to 12 steps because I couldn't stand the constant problem focus. I just wanted some socializing! But the socializing that was supposed to replace all the heavy stuff hasn't materialized :-( When you do find fun, please invite me to the party.
Posted by DaisyM on May 4, 2004, at 14:16:07
In reply to Great responses! Thanks, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 9:46:42
I'm late....again.
You said everything yourself I was going to say to you. One suggestion, add a "non-deep" person to activities if you want to stay light.
Going to dinner shows, movies or plays is a great way to limit how much talking to each other you "have" to do. It can just be fun. Having 3 or 4 people together also keeps things moving along. I've gone to play pool with my girl friends, which I totally stink at, but that is half the fun. (I know it is a bar and you don't drink but..)
I've also recently been talked into a kayaking (sp?) class because I stupidly expressed out loud that I wanted to try something new. I'm sure I'll get stuck in that little round hole in the boat and it will tip over and make a fool out of myself. Geez....
Anyway, you are such a great friend to me. I can't imagine it will be hard for you to keep friends once you meet them.
:)
Posted by All Done on May 4, 2004, at 17:26:28
In reply to Great responses! Thanks, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2004, at 9:46:42
falls,
When it comes to just having fun and not trying to do something "right" or "better", maybe, before you start trying stuff with friends, you should something on your own first. Something that doesn't require you to "do" anything. Pamper yourself with a manicure. That way, it’s not your responsibility to get it done or done right. You can just float away while the manicurist (or even better, pedicurist) does her job. If you haven't done it, trust me, this is fun :).
For the things with your friends, I would only suggest starting with activities that don't take very long. Maybe a light movie with ice cream afterwards so you can discuss *the movie*? Do you have an aquarium or another museum that you enjoy? My best friend and I have gone to one of those places where you paint pottery. There might be too much of a need to do that "right", though. But it was fun :).
We also love to talk on the phone. Somehow, we started a kind of tradition each year for the Oscars. Instead of getting together for them, we talk on the phone through the entire pre-show and the show itself. All we do is comment on the outfits, movies, and speeches. In between, we might throw in a little "how was your week" stuff but not too much. This can also be done with "reality" TV or just about any show of mutual liking, I imagine. We did it with Average Joe Hawaii. It was terrible, but we had a ton of fun.
Good luck, falls! You deserve to have a lot of fun!
Take care,
All Done
Posted by noa on May 7, 2004, at 18:26:25
In reply to a real friend helps you move, posted by octopusprime on May 3, 2004, at 20:56:42
> but i have decided that i'm too grown up for that and i'm hiring movers. :-/
>Yeah, after 35 I started hiring real movers cuz I figgered my friends weren't gonna be duped by a little pizza and beer anymore.
:-)
Posted by gardenergirl on May 8, 2004, at 10:45:17
In reply to Re: a real friend helps you move » octopusprime, posted by noa on May 7, 2004, at 18:26:25
OMG! I had the same experience. Pizza and beer doesn't cut it. I think cash might, but if I'm paying, might as well use the pros.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on May 8, 2004, at 11:05:51
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
I'm even later than Daisy. There are some great ideas and posts here. I think this is a very good question, and it may be even deeper than it initally appears.
In thinking about my friends, I realize I have a variety of "friend" categories. Some are long term, talk about anything friends. These are the kind who, even if you haven't talked or had a chance to get together in a long while, you are able to pick it right back up. I associate this with a certain level of intimacy (not sexual, just closeness and openness) that comes from sharing the whole range of stuff together. Laughing, crying, being serious, being silly, just being. I only have a couple of friends like this.
Another friend category might be the friends I have now who I would call "current" friends. This is the group I hang out with the most right now. It usually has to do with something we all have/had in common. Right now, that is school. This type of friend may not last beyond what you have in common. Geography can play a role here, too.
Then there is the "friend" with whom you usually just do specific things with. For example your golfing buddy (don't golf, just can't think of my own example at the moment). I usually am much less open with this type, but I do enjoy the activity.
What do I do with friends? Like others, it usually invovles food...either going out to eat or eating in at one of our homes. Sometimes it's just having a glass of wine on the front porch (my next door neighbor is an old friend from undergrad days.) Sometimes I go with "the girls" to have lunch downtown and then catch a weekend matinee performance of a local theater group. Sometimes we go to "GameWorks" an arcade and play Indy and Daytona racing until I am purple from laughing so hard. ( I found I do much better if I go AROUND the other cars rather than THROUGH them. You wouldn't believe how long it took me to figure that out.) Sometimes we go to local festivals or events downtown. But it almost always involves food, as I love to cook, love to eat, and love to go out to eat. Fortunately, we have a lot of choices here.
My favorite friend times, though, have been just hanging out and talking...about anything. I'm a talker (you might have guessed), and I love to giggle with the group about stuff. Also, this sounds so hokey, but my neighbor and I just hang out and talk over the fence. Sometimes we go into one or the others' yard to look at and talk about our gardens, but often it's just talk about anything. So we're Betty and Wilma. It's really nice. If only we could find a way to do this in the winter...
Okay, done rambling. Waiting to post to this certainly has not helped with being concise. Oh well.
gg
Posted by antigua on May 8, 2004, at 11:41:50
In reply to What do friends do?, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2004, at 15:14:50
I wish we lived close together and actually could be friends. You are a thoughtful, caring person and anyone would be lucky to have you for a real-life friend.
antigua
This is the end of the thread.
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