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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fogmama on February 3, 2004, at 17:10:57
Hi friends,
I've been thinking about the source of my social anxiety, and it occurs to me that a couple of years' worth of bullying I endured as a kid may be at the core. I saw a post on another area of this board where the poster stated "My anxiety was caused by bullying" so then I thought I'd bring this up here in psycho-social. Anyone have any comments?
fogmama
(Who is already worried about bullying on behalf of her precious lil' baby who is still < 1yr old!)
Posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:31:51
In reply to Social anxiety and bullying, posted by fogmama on February 3, 2004, at 17:10:57
My library just added a new children's book (with CD). I thought the pictures were great. I haven't listened to the song yet.
I wrote down the title and author because I know another Babble poster had some problems with bullying when she was small.
"Don't laugh at me" by Steve Seskin.
Posted by Racer on February 3, 2004, at 21:18:12
In reply to Social anxiety and bullying, posted by fogmama on February 3, 2004, at 17:10:57
Another former bullying target, so this is my take on it:
On the one hand, social anxiety is worsened by the bullying, but I think the bullies pick out those of us who are most likely to be easy targets. So, yes, the bullying does have long term consequences, in that we're more likely to end up with depression or SA, but no, I don't think it is the root cause of those disorders.
There was a study done in New Zealand last year, that found a genetic link to depression. The study showed that individuals with one form of a specific gene were much more likely to suffer depression after stressful events. People without that form of the gene were not prone to depression, despite equally stressful events, so the study seems to show a pretty strong correlation between this genetic form and depression.
The investigator, though, emphasized this point: she herself had the genetic tendency towards depression, but had never experience such a state. She attributed that fact to a lack of the sort of triggering stress that had brought on depression in other study subjects.
In other words, luck of the genetic draw in being at risk for depression, luck of the environmental draw in being subject to the triggers. Those of us who are genetically predisposed to depression AND have stressors in early life that might trigger depression are probably more likely to be bullied, and more likely to experience that bullying as a trigger to deeper depression.
There, that's my thinking on the subject. Hope it helps.
Posted by 8 Miles on February 4, 2004, at 18:01:50
In reply to Social anxiety and bullying, posted by fogmama on February 3, 2004, at 17:10:57
Well, I certainly know that bullying can affect one's demeanor for the rest of their life. I was a scrawny little guy in 7th grade, who was often picked on by others. I think there IS a natural aura, just like in the animal world, where people can somehow "sense" someone weaker than them. Secondly, I don't think bullying is restricted at all to kids, I see it everyday in my world. Again, it is as if someone with power or authority (substituted here for physical strength) "preys" on those sensed vulnerable (or weaker). I can certainly defend a physical attack, which I COULD NOT as a 7th grader, but an attack from someone with the ability to affect my job situation or status, can be just as terrifying (or worse) now, as an adult. I think that those of us with fairly evident physical manifestations of our "mental disorder" are wide open to assault from those who would view us as weaker. Worse yet, the same sort of person would make it a character issue like "he is just too lazy to do the job, HE can control himself, that stuff he whines about is all in his head and he could make it go away if he really wanted to."
Anyway, that's just my spin on what I see as a pandemic issue in our world. Survival of the fittest? Hmmmmmmm....
8
Posted by Racer on February 4, 2004, at 20:33:33
In reply to Re: Social anxiety and bullying » fogmama, posted by 8 Miles on February 4, 2004, at 18:01:50
(I know, bordering on political, but I think staying outside the DMZ)
You've just said almost everything I'd say, and probably better than I did.
It did bring one thought to mind, though: ever been in a confrontation with a dog? I've been in one, and watched my mother in another. Both times, our postures and body language made the difference. Mine was dog-sitting for a neighbor: thought nothing of the fact that she was dogsitting for her daughter at the time. Neighbor's dogs knew me, but her grand-dog didn't. I opened the dog, to be confronted by a full grown, recently neutered dog who had been a breeding stud. Lots of practice with testosterone triggered behavior, right? That very first second, I was scared, felt out of my depth. Then I took a deep breath and told him, "Hey, I'm supposed to be here -- and you're not supposed to greet me that way." No trouble at all, the other dogs ran over to me to say hi, and he decided I was OK.
My mother, on the other hand, was in my aunt's house, walking down a hallway that ended in an L shape. Mother is phobic about dogs. My aunt's dog was walking the other way, and they met up at the point of the L. Mother got tense, cringed upright against the wall, staring him in the eyes. I got there just before she got hurt. Mind you, my aunt's dog is an 85# dog in a 110# body, a big baby in all senses of the word, not at all aggressive, tends to be just like a little kid wanting to be loved on all the time, eager to please. But my mother's fear put her into a threatening posture, and he was dangerous at that moment because he felt threatened.
What I'm saying here, by the way, in typical Rant style, is that sometimes the bullies do it because they're feeling threatened by us. Believe it or now, I do believe that. I've certainly experienced it myself in working environments. (Of course, it doesn't help that, at least in my corporate years, I was young, smart, good looking, well dressed and -- the kicker -- taller than a lot of my male coworkers. There are a lot of men who really feel threatened by tall, smart women -- especially those of us who are fortunate enough to be pretty.)
Posted by deirdrehbrt on February 4, 2004, at 21:29:57
In reply to Social Darwinism... » 8 Miles, posted by Racer on February 4, 2004, at 20:33:33
Ok,I think I'll ad my two cents worth.
I was bullied mercilessly from second or third grade through high-school. This included verbal and physical abuse which reached its height when I was picked up and thrown across a locker room, landed on my butt and broke my tailbone.
Being a good victim, I didn't tell teachers, didn't go to a doctor, and just suffered until it healed in the wrong position. I realized what had happened only later, when X-rays revealed that, along with some other injuries.
I guess what I'm expecting my example to show is that those of us who suffer abuse regularly develop a habit of enabling that abuse by remaining silent. It's not our fault, it's necessary to survive, or at least it seems to be. One might think "Oh my god! They did this to me when they were happy, what will they do when they are mad at me?"
We become very good at recognizing who the people who are going to hurt us are. We think we can predict what behavior on our part will cause them to hurt us. We modify our behavior in such a way that we think we are safer.
Perhaps some of the behaviors and reactions we have, having been abused (I think bullying is too weak a word. It's just juvenile abuse.) probably can be interpreted as SA. We are hyper-vigilant. We can be extremely anxious if we detect someone who could be an abuser, even if we can't name our fear. Perhaps social anxiety includes people such as us in it's umbrella. I only know the way I feel in a crowd is very much influenced by the type of crowd. If I'm in a room with lots of guys drinking beer and watching football, I'm scared, at least unless I know them all very well. I don't like bars. I don't like men coming toward me on sidewalks.
I don't think I have SA, but I do have behaviors that are the result of things that happened over 30 years ago.
Dee.
Posted by Angielala on February 5, 2004, at 11:27:02
In reply to Social anxiety and bullying, posted by fogmama on February 3, 2004, at 17:10:57
Oh man... it brings up memories! Catholic Grade School- I was the outsider, bad teeth (pre-braces) thick glasses (pre-contacts) too skinny, so scrawny... and a tomboy to top it all off. I was constantly bullied by this boy we'll call Vinny. Always bullied, and always told, "Stop talking to him and stay away from him and his friends" we'll he had four cousins in the class, and they were all popular and had cliques- which I didn't fit into, because when I was 12, I could care less about makeup and dances, I just didn't care. It finally came to an end when Vinny literally fought me. He outweighed me easily by 70lbs. He beat me up in the classroom while everyone watched and clapped. I didn't tell anyone. It wasn't until my mom caught me taking off a shirt and say bruises that I had to tell. We went to the "Sister" principal. I was told I didn't fit in and that I should leave the school. She called me a troublemaker. I was the shyest, quietest girl, and years later I found that "Vinny" had a crush on me, and since he knew I dislike him so much, he picked that fight.
I think back now and KNOW that that whole mess really did a number on my social skills. I was so worried about being bullied. My dad bullied me on things like politics, my mom on my fashion sense (when I was in high school- I WAS Courtney Love- just imagine that)... seemed like I was always getting bullied.
I never connected the two until now- but being bullied constantly definitely has conenction to SA.... which I have had since I was very young (which I understand why now)
Very very interesting- thanks for sharing that thought...
Oh- and as a PS.... this "vinny" guy ended up, years later applying for a job with my dad (he didn't know that my dad still worked there) and he was lucky enough to be paired up with my dad- my dad was his "mentor". Vinny lasted 3 days on the job. Pure karma. I love it :)
> Hi friends,
>
> I've been thinking about the source of my social anxiety, and it occurs to me that a couple of years' worth of bullying I endured as a kid may be at the core. I saw a post on another area of this board where the poster stated "My anxiety was caused by bullying" so then I thought I'd bring this up here in psycho-social. Anyone have any comments?
>
> fogmama
> (Who is already worried about bullying on behalf of her precious lil' baby who is still < 1yr old!)
Posted by Racer on February 5, 2004, at 15:02:55
In reply to Re: Social anxiety and bullying, posted by Angielala on February 5, 2004, at 11:27:02
Yep, when I look back, I can see the same sorts of things in my life. First there was the {ahem} *obvious* problem: Big Boobs. I had 'em, so I got to fill a vital role in my school: School Slut. Didn't matter that I'd never even kissed a boy, didn't matter that I'd never had any consentual contact with anyone in my life. I had big boobs, so I must be trying to get sexual attention and was therefore the school slut.
The problem was that some of the teachers reacted to me based on that, as well as the other kids. Realizing that the teachers *believed* in the truth of my reputation was devastating.
Then, in high school, I was kicked out of math class. The other kids were bullying me so much, the teacher took me aside one day and told me he couldn't handle it, so he was kicking me out of the class.
Well, we're talking about a 15 year old kid here, so what could I see? What could I do? I dropped out of school, took the equivalency exam the first time it was offered after my 16th birthday, and screwed up the rest of my life, because, after all, the teachers had told me that I just wasn't worth any better.
So, um, wanna talk about the good things that have happened in my life? Wanna talk about my college GPA? It was 4.0, those idiot teachers in jr high and high school were wrong -- I *did* have the ability to learn, and I *did* have the motivation to work hard to do so. The empirically observable facts say that they were wrong, and that they failed to do their jobs successfully.
Guess what? Empirical isn't enough. I'm still, inside myself, that cringing child (yes, no matter how I felt then, I *was* a child), the one everyone picked on, the one the teachers abandoned, the one who had no place to go for protection and safety. Doesn't matter what else I've done in my life. Never will matter what else I've done in my life.
And I've got resentment built up over the total unfairness of it, too. I've worked with high risk kids, I've worked in facilities that provide services for children. I've seen the care that is taken to identify the children at risk for abuse, the care that is taken to make sure the guy who's coming to pick up little Susie really is authorized to take her home. I've seen it. NOW, when it's too late for me, those protections are in place. And I doubt a single one of my old teachers or therapists has ever even thought of me since then, never wondered, "Gee, I wonder if that was *her* problem? Maybe I should have asked..."
And one last thing, which really enrages me now: no one ever did ask me. If anyone had asked me, if anyone had ever said, "gee, has anyone ever touched you inappropriately?" I'd have answered. I would have told all about it. I couldn't start the conversation about it, because that would have been betraying my mother, but I'd sure as hell answered.
Guess that's the long version of "I can empathise with you..."
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on February 6, 2004, at 0:07:21
In reply to Oh, man! » Angielala, posted by Racer on February 5, 2004, at 15:02:55
This is just my opinion, but I've read a lot of behavioral pathology studies and I firmly believe that any form of abuse or bad circumstances (poverty being a big one) early in life causes people to have a much greater risk of problems later on.
I also think genetics play a huge roll. If you could point me to that New Zealand study, Racer, I would appreciate it. :)
Myself for instance. I went to a private school in Kindergarten where was abused sexually by one staff member. I was abused verbally and physically (bullying is a chickens**t term IMO) by the kids. I was also isolated for long periods of time in this anteroom of the principals office for hours on end with nothing but a desk in the room and not checked on.
It was no wonder I developed a conduct problem and was kicked out of the school. Later I was diagnosed with ADHD. Go figure.
Through the grade school years I was abused by the other kids. I suppose you could say that I was the perfect victim. From age 6 on I could never tell my doctors, therapists, parents, or teachers what happened. I was both scared to death of telling and trying to repress at thesame time.
These are my most poignant childhood memories. I can't remember chrismases, birthdays or any of that sort of thing. I can't even look at a picture or watch a home video from that time without a big upheaval.
Much the same in Junior High. Once I was pushed into a band saw and still have the scar from where my fingertip was put back together. Did I tell anyone I was pushed? Nope. Said my hand slipped.
Things were different in High school. I fell in with the "goths". They were accepting and fun to be around. I got my revenge on the kids and the school system to some degree by making myself so "scary" that I was untouchable.
Fast forward to today. Major pychotic depression with comorbid GAD (SA being the biggest part of it). I also have some compulsive problems. I'm also Dysgraphic and probably dyscalculic. Every day is a struggle.On one positive note, I have become hyper-vigilant about what goes on with my 5-year old daughter. I am also very careful to not let her pick up on that. She is happy, self-reliant and well adjusted with a great support network behind her. It's the only thing I can give myself credit for.
I am alsodealing with a predatory former boss and speaking out about him is incredibly challenging.
Time for a smoke. I hate remembering all this crap.
Posted by Angielala on February 6, 2004, at 8:21:40
In reply to Re: My two cents, posted by socialdeviantjeff on February 6, 2004, at 0:07:21
Your story is amazing... I'm almost speechless...
(If you don't want to talk about this any further I COMPLETELY understand, just tell me to shut up ;))
How/Did you come forward with all of this to your parents at all when you were younger?
> This is just my opinion, but I've read a lot of behavioral pathology studies and I firmly believe that any form of abuse or bad circumstances (poverty being a big one) early in life causes people to have a much greater risk of problems later on.
>
> I also think genetics play a huge roll. If you could point me to that New Zealand study, Racer, I would appreciate it. :)
>
> Myself for instance. I went to a private school in Kindergarten where was abused sexually by one staff member. I was abused verbally and physically (bullying is a chickens**t term IMO) by the kids. I was also isolated for long periods of time in this anteroom of the principals office for hours on end with nothing but a desk in the room and not checked on.
>
> It was no wonder I developed a conduct problem and was kicked out of the school. Later I was diagnosed with ADHD. Go figure.
>
> Through the grade school years I was abused by the other kids. I suppose you could say that I was the perfect victim. From age 6 on I could never tell my doctors, therapists, parents, or teachers what happened. I was both scared to death of telling and trying to repress at thesame time.
>
> These are my most poignant childhood memories. I can't remember chrismases, birthdays or any of that sort of thing. I can't even look at a picture or watch a home video from that time without a big upheaval.
>
> Much the same in Junior High. Once I was pushed into a band saw and still have the scar from where my fingertip was put back together. Did I tell anyone I was pushed? Nope. Said my hand slipped.
>
> Things were different in High school. I fell in with the "goths". They were accepting and fun to be around. I got my revenge on the kids and the school system to some degree by making myself so "scary" that I was untouchable.
>
>
> Fast forward to today. Major pychotic depression with comorbid GAD (SA being the biggest part of it). I also have some compulsive problems. I'm also Dysgraphic and probably dyscalculic. Every day is a struggle.
>
> On one positive note, I have become hyper-vigilant about what goes on with my 5-year old daughter. I am also very careful to not let her pick up on that. She is happy, self-reliant and well adjusted with a great support network behind her. It's the only thing I can give myself credit for.
>
> I am alsodealing with a predatory former boss and speaking out about him is incredibly challenging.
>
> Time for a smoke. I hate remembering all this crap.
Posted by fogmama on February 6, 2004, at 16:05:37
In reply to Re: My two cents, posted by socialdeviantjeff on February 6, 2004, at 0:07:21
jeff,
<<I hate remembering all this crap>>
I want to express my gratitude to you for going through your story. Personally, I felt benefited by knowing that I wasn't the only one with SA who had this kind of history.
Mine was not as severe as some of the others' stories, but it did involve some physical attacks at the hands of other kids. After the initial attacks ended, all that was required to keep me terrified were threats. "We're gonna beat you up after school..." I think they enjoyed my fear. Creeps. And these were girls, my friends, not boys. I was targeted for being different looking, smart, even having funny shoes. This continued from 3rd grade to high school, where mercifully the abuse receded after my freshman year. My dh has a similar story except his started in high school - and was far worse than mine.
My dh is a martial artist now - no doubt inspired by his early inability to defend himself - so his ideas about keeping our son safe from bullying are focused on his being physically capable. Martial arts can have a profound effect on self esteem, I know, but I've also known a number of people who became "tough" through martial arts without truly developing self respect. (No, dh is not one of them!)
I found your comments on your daughter inspiring, jeff. To those of you with kids - what strategies have you followed to help ensure they don't carry the burden with them of your early difficulties? Ideas welcome.
fm
Posted by Racer on February 7, 2004, at 23:27:19
In reply to Re: My two cents, posted by socialdeviantjeff on February 6, 2004, at 0:07:21
The study was referred to in Discover Magazine's year end issue out in December. Unfortunately, the article is not accessible on their website. They only had a short blurb about the study, but it's certainly interesting.
As for the rest of what you had to say, all I can say is "whew! Sounds like fun -- NOT!" I'm sorry you went through that.
What you said about never telling anyone, though, brought up a point that's been hovering around in my head lately: Not only do children Not Tell, but the adults around them don't always ask in a way that leads to answers. You didn't tell anyone you had been pushed into the saw, right? If the teacher had asked you, "Did anyone push you?" You would have hung your head, I'm guessing, and shaken it. If, on the other hand, the teacher had asked another question, maybe did so-and-so knock into you, maybe? You might have answered something that wasn't so loaded, right?
For me, I know that if any adult in my life had asked me if my mother's boyfriend had touched me, I would have told the truth. Hell, I *did* tell my mother, fat lot of good that did me. Meanwhile, the school's calling her, telling her to send me to counseling, we went, and NO ONE EVER ONCE ASKED ME. If anyone ever had, I would have answered.
So, for the record, if anyone here ever finds him or her self in a position of talking to a child about whether or not any abuse has gone on, remember this: ask specific, non-threatening questions. Nothing so amorphous as, "Is anyone hurting you?" That one's worthless: if you're concerned enough to be asking a question like that, something is not right, and the child is likely to be hurting. Specificity, that's the rule with kids. I do remember one counselor trying to help, but not being able to put any of it into words.
Unfortunately, I didn't always get good counselors, and we were at a psychiatric teaching center, so we rotated through counselors every 3 months. We got one who was so bad I finally just gave up and stopped showing up for appointments. Oh, well. Maybe if we'd had a good, continuing therapy relationship back then, I might not be in the state I'm in now...
(Oh, back to that study, I can't find it again, but I think I saw something about at either Public Citizen's website, or maybe pbs. You could try there, or the NIH or NIMH might have it posted. Hope you find it, it's actually really interesting.)
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on February 9, 2004, at 2:52:33
In reply to Grrr... Can't link to it... » socialdeviantjeff, posted by Racer on February 7, 2004, at 23:27:19
I think you're right on many levels, racer. Sounds like you've had a rough time of it too and my thoughts are with you.
When I was kicked out of the school, if anyone had asked me specifics about what the teachers or kids were diong I'm sure I would have said something. It can be confusing as a child, I wasn't even sure if those behaviors were appropriate or not. The only thing I was sure of was that I was the only one they were doing it to. I thought I was being punished because I couldn't write cursive. Of course after I learned that what happened was wrong, I was to afraid to talk and eventually repressed (at least consciously) most of it.
The school kept my parents in the dark. They would call the scool, and the school would tell them I was doing fine. I didn't tell them what happened until about three years ago when my daughter started school. I still can't tell them the complete truth. They were hugely shocked when I told them what I did. Someday I hope to tell them everything, but I'm not ready for that and I don't think they are. In fact, even my closest confidants have only ever heard a fraction of it. The anonimity of the net does help me speak about it a little more freely.
I'd love to go after them, if I could. I think renting out those classroooms as cheap office space (especially for pdocs and therapists) would be good poetic justice.
The school my daughter goes to is a private one. I's a great school though. she's happy and has friends there and her teachers are very open. I can sit in class and I do from time to time, unannounced. The kid loves that.
For anyone else reading this who want to keep their kids from harm, I only have one thin to say: GET INVOLVED AND STAY INVOLVED no matter how hard it can be sometimes. Most good parents are involved, as mine were. They just didn't know the right questions to ask and were mislead by people; supposed professionals they were supposed to be able to trust.
Above the usual parental questions, drop in at school. If the school objects, gently remind them of the economics of tax dollar (if public) or revenue and head counts. Get your hands dirty. FInd out who their friends are. Take complaints of bullying seriously. Check with every possible licencing and business agency for complaints or red flags on the teachers, administrators or school. Fantasy play with dolls or animals (playing school) works well too, especially if the child is reticent to talk.
But I digress. Racer, thanks for trying to find the article. Guess I'll do sme poking around and see what comes up.
This is the end of the thread.
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