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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 1:49:53
I have read a lot of sociology, psychology and psychiatry. I've heard plenty of anecdotes from all types.
I still can't figure it out.
What is a normal person? I can't seem to find perspective to "get it".
It seems that everybody on earth is deviated from some so-called concept of normality in one way or another.
I know the way I feel is not normal. I know from a gut level that it's wrong. But I can't seem to grasp the concept of the right way of feeling. It's like I have no internal reference.
Sorry, this is just a rant. I'm not even sure what I'm trying to express.
Posted by Bubbaleh on January 5, 2004, at 6:14:22
In reply to Will somebody please tell me what normal is?(rant), posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 1:49:53
Jeff, I hear you. It does not seem fair that when just about everyone deviates from the norm, we are the ones who get labeled "abnormal." The best way I know of to address this problem is to join NAMI, National Association for the Mentally Ill, an organization that tries to fight stigma. For instance, they teach people to do presentations in schools about brain diseases, they organize marches, they lobby in Congress and in state legislatures for health insurance parity, etc.
On a personal level, though, I know that this suggestion does not address the slights we experience in everyday life. I fight hard to not absorb the anti-psychiatric patient prejudice I see in my everyday life. But it is so hard!!
Talk to you later. Take care!
Bubbaleh
Posted by Elle2021 on January 5, 2004, at 6:31:02
In reply to Re: Will somebody please tell me what normal is?(rant) » socialdeviantjeff, posted by Bubbaleh on January 5, 2004, at 6:14:22
Well,
I never did really grasp the concept of "normal." I assume that is must be hitting right in the middle of abnormal and eccentric behaviours. Compared to a grand scheme of abnormal behaviours, I really am inclined to think that we are fairly normal, aside from a few problems. I also think that you and I would be rather surprised to know how many of our friends and acquaintances are "medicated." I was caught off guard when I found out one of my "normal" friends was on Paxil. So, don't worry, I think we are normal. :)
Elle
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 9:45:47
In reply to Re: Jeff, posted by Elle2021 on January 5, 2004, at 6:31:02
Well, thanks folks. I actually am a member of NAMI. Good group.
Interesting point on people I know who are medicated. I know 3 people who are bona fide Bipolar, a Unipolar person, and a Schitzophrenic. Inerestingly, these are some of the nicest people I know, unless of course a bipolar friend is manic or my schitzophrenic friend is in his own world. But I like these people and it comes with the territory.
Thanks for the perspective.
Posted by Camille Dumont on January 5, 2004, at 10:10:59
In reply to Re: Jeff, posted by Elle2021 on January 5, 2004, at 6:31:02
The way I see it, "normality" is more of a concept within a context than something definite. I go for the statistical approach that being "normal" is being / feeling mostly like the majority of people do.
But the context is important. If you live in Haiti and believe in zombies and curses, you're normal, if you live in america and tell that to a doctor ... you'll most likely be branded psychotic.
To me it also means that "normal" is not necessarily a "good" thing ... in a country where everybody is sick with say, pneumonia ... the healthy person is thus "abnormal" ... but often I'd rather be the strange loner than a member of a mass of mediocrity.
Posted by LynneDa on January 5, 2004, at 12:29:33
In reply to Will somebody please tell me what normal is?(rant), posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 1:49:53
There is no definition of normal, but there is a generally agreed upon definition of abnormal for your community or culture!
This is what my Mom told me when I was younger:
Normal is when you feel okay about yourself, knowing what you need to fix and what you can leave alone about yourself; when you can treat others with respect, have a few good friends and are a contributing member to society. Sounds pretty simple, huh?It's hard to recognize normal when you have no frame of reference. I lose that perspective from time to time too! It's hard to make yourself right without some objective help from the outside.
I wouldn't worry so much about being normal as I would about working on the things inside of yourself that make you unhappy.
How's that?
Good luck and take care. It sounds like you've made some progress since your first posts here!!
~ Lynne
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 14:21:35
In reply to Re: Will somebody please tell me what normal is?(rant) » socialdeviantjeff, posted by LynneDa on January 5, 2004, at 12:29:33
It's probably my illness; I just look at a person who appears to be acting "normal", at least as far as what the Budweiser/Marlboro/Coke/Pepsi/Maxim/Mtv/hip-hop/rap-metal/Brittany Spears/CNN/Oprah/Friends/traditional church/Spring Break model of normality would tell me, and I can't fathom how that person, assuming he's well-adjusted, must feel. I see these types as sheep, but then what does that make me? Certainly not a fox or a wolf. Or the dog. I feel more like the grass they stomp on as they brainlessly tromp from one spot to the next. Sometimes, I'd rather be a sheep.
Just ranting, been a little moody lately.
Thanks, though. What y'all have said definitely makes sense...
Posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 14:26:33
In reply to Will somebody please tell me what normal is?(rant), posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 1:49:53
And I think everyone else made some very good points! They did wonderful jobs of summing it up! I think it isn't as important to be "normal" (whatever that really is???) as it is to be happy. I'm a bit eccentric, yes! And I like it just fine.
Being "normal" depends on quite a few things: situational context, cultural relativity, ect. Oh, ok. Is it normal for a man to remove his pants in a place of business? It is if he's in a doctor's office. Or, is it normal for a woman to stand outside and water her lawn? Not if it is raining while she's doing it. See it is relative and situational. Try to think of it that way. (Some examples I learned in Psych 101)...
But instead of focusing on what's normal (because it is tough to draw the line, even if there is one), try focusing on what's right, or what could be improved. I find that I get better results that way. If you see areas where you see potential improvement focus on that. And if you are feeling a bit down, focus on areas that you have improved on. (And you don't have to look hard to see it... Just check out your posts!) I agree with whoever said it (sorry can't remember :( Your posts have been getting better! You're hanging in there and doing great! And we are proud of you for that! You should be too!!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 14:39:57
In reply to Still ranting, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 14:21:35
OK, this one hit me hard. Maybe just a bit *too* close to home. Trying to find a way to put into words how to explain Karen. Jeff, Karen looks very normal. Karen has the memory of a slug (possibly worse) so Karen studies SO hard and endlessly so that she can keep her grades up to *APPEAR* normal. Karen makes monthly appoinments at the beauty salon, so her hair can be perfect, so she *APPEARS* normal. Karen gets her nails done so she can *APPEAR* normal. Karen goes shopping often and spends money on clothes that she really shouldn't so that she can *APPEAR* normal. Karen drives a nice car and begs her boyfriend to buy her diamonds so that she can *APPEAR* normal. Jeff, Karen goes to GREAT lengths to *APPEAR* normal. Karen cleans her house OBSESSIVELY. Never mind that noone really comes over. It's to assure herself that she IS NORMAL. That she is keeping it together. When in fact she's falling apart. The moral of the story is that Jeff, even the most NORMAL looking people have problems too. Just because we hide it, and hide it well in fact, doesn't mean it's not there. It's just that some of us have gotten darn good at covering things up and hiding things. That's the only buffer and security that we have. I think it's even braver to be able to face the fact that you aren't hiding behind your problems :) Sorry, If I didn't help you, but just wanted to let you know that just because some people *appear* to look like they have it togethr doesn't mean it's not a front! Trust me, I'm hurting just as much as the next person. I jsut hide behindt he makeup and false smiles...
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 18:32:43
In reply to Re: Still ranting » socialdeviantjeff, posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 14:39:57
Sorry if I struck a bad chord. I guess you could say I harbor a jealousy of people who appear normal, whether they are or not. I see people like that as if they are trampling on me because of some sense of self superiority. It's as if we can read each others minds when I encounter such a person. Like a psychic tug-of-war. It feels very real and many times I can't rationalize that it's not actually happening. Unfotunately this type of delusion is a psychotic symptom of my depression, or so my pdoc says. I'm working hard not to do it.
I thank you for your encouragement about my posts. A lot of times it's hard to see progress until somebody else points it out. Thank you. You helped me feel better today. I really hope someday things get better for you, too.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 19:50:55
In reply to Re: Still ranting » Karen_kay, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 18:32:43
Oh, it isn't that you struck a chord. It just seemed like you passed average "Karen" on the street! Funny the way things work out that way, isn't it? Just wanted to show you that even people who "look" like they have it together don't. I've been in therapy for a year and a half. And I've been on different medications for over 5 years. And I'm only 24. I've been working on my BA for over 5 years. I've had to take some time off and I've been hospitalized and I have several dx and been through several doctors. But, to pass me on the street, you'd NEVER know it. Because I work DARN hard to make certain that I look that way! But, that's just one of my coping mechanisms. (Actually, to the point that I change my clothes 5 times a day! SCARY huh??? I think so too!) But, those people who *Appear* to look normal aren't really always normal either.... Nope, everyone has problems. They just handle them in different ways! So, the next time you watch TV or pass someone on the street and think "That person looks normal. Man, that makes me ___(angry, upset, sad, depressed, ect)" they may be a time bomb waiting to erupt!
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 20:29:57
In reply to Re: Still ranting » socialdeviantjeff, posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 19:50:55
It's very true that I tend to be judgemental about people who appear normal. The pathology of this behavior is very long, and would require a long time to explain. Lately, I've been finding myself glaring random people down in the street, playing out some sort of psychic battle with them. Especially since my meds have reduced my anxiety. It's a dangerous behavior, but I can't seem to stop it.
It seems your coping mechanism is better than mine! self-maintenance and appearances aren't my strong suit. I'm trying harder, but it's a hairy and complicated problem and only scratches the surface of my issues. at any rate, you make a valid point. I appreciate your insight.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 22:14:05
In reply to Re: Still ranting, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 5, 2004, at 20:29:57
> It's very true that I tend to be judgemental about people who appear normal.
*How do you mean? As in, the way they dress, their attire? I have a story for you (if you don't mind :) I have this friend. She complains endlessly about how people judge her based on her appearance. I'd say she "looks" like a dirty hippie. She has dreadlocks, wears the same clothes for days, ect. Now, I had a party and my other friends came over who "look" like punk rockers. (And if you saw me you'd think I'd keep strange company, because I don't "dress" any certain way :) Now, my boyfriend invited his friends as well, who what my friend (the "hippie") referred to as "trust-fund kids." I just looked at her at stared. All the times she called me crying because people judged her based on her appearance and she had the nerve to judge these nice people based on their clothing! Hmm?? She just didn't get it, but I imagine one day she will. I just didn't have the heart to tell her. (BTW, I don't like labeling people like hippie or punk rocker, but it helps to have a mental image :)You can't tell how together someone has it by what they are wearing or how "normal" they appear. I promise. I'd send you a pic of me. I appear very normal, but I promise, I'm not. :)
The pathology of this behavior is very long, and would require a long time to explain. Lately, I've been finding myself glaring random people down in the street, playing out some sort of psychic battle with them. Especially since my meds have reduced my anxiety. It's a dangerous behavior, but I can't seem to stop it.
>*Why do you feel the need to glare at random strangers? Personally, I love strangers... Seriously! I can't go grocery shopping because I feel it is my obligation to be a "princess" (And this is NO joke here!!) and smile and make everyone happy! When I go to the grocery, I like to smile at the old men. And some of them actually get it! I can't use a cart (b/c I'm frightened of them...long story), so if I have to get a few items, I have to make repeated trips. But, when I go to the grocery, I feel like it is my duty to make everyone's shopping trip (stranger's) a great one. So, I have a smile on my face the whole time. And some people seem to get it. And some of the men wink (I just adore that!).. Maybe you are my nemesis, or my lesson. Or we are here to teach eachother something! Strange!
> It seems your coping mechanism is better than mine! self-maintenance and appearances aren't my strong suit.
*Hmm, better, I'd say not. More passive maybe but I wouldn't say better. I suffer with quite a bit of anxiety due to it. And my teeth are ground down from my jaw being clenched so tight. I smoke 2.5 packs of cigarettes a day and chew 2 packs of gum a day, still use a pacifier and suck my thumb. And, if I don't have fake nails, my fingers bleed because I chew them down to the cuticle. That's how my anxiety I suffer with. Yet, when my therapist asks how I'm doing I smile and say, "Oh, I'm great!!" How dumb is that?? Sorry, had to vent a little bit :)
I'm trying harder, but it's a hairy and complicated problem and only scratches the surface of my issues. at any rate, you make a valid point. I appreciate your insight.
* You make valid points too! Everyone suffers. And in different ways. It is just that we deal with it differently. And you've come so far! There is a noticable change in your posts since you first started here, and for that you hsould be proud. Just because MTV or Oprah shows visions of what is "normal" doesn't mean that is so. Anyway, take a look in any entertainment magazine. Look at some of the trouble that quite a few celebrities are dealing with currently. I mean, they look like they have it together too. But, looks can be deceiving!
Posted by Speaker on January 5, 2004, at 23:40:52
In reply to Re: Still ranting » socialdeviantjeff, posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 22:14:05
Jeff,
I once saw a bumper sticker that fit my life so well...it made me laugh and I hope it does you too! "Normal Doesn't Live Here Anymore" I always thought there are so many people that fit into the normal mode why would I want to be one of them?
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 6, 2004, at 15:53:35
In reply to Bumper Sticker » Karen_kay, posted by Speaker on January 5, 2004, at 23:40:52
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 6, 2004, at 17:27:55
In reply to Re: Still ranting » socialdeviantjeff, posted by Karen_kay on January 5, 2004, at 22:14:05
I guess I don't neccesarily mean judgemental by how they're dressed. It's more how they act. If a person comes across as aloof, judgemental, rude etc. I will reciprocate and add to that. If a person comes across as animated, friendly, interested etc. I wonder what is wrong with them. I'll probably be aloof or rude. The more flat and emotionless a person is, the easier time I have dealing with them.
Concerning your anxiety, I wish I could offer more than just empathy. I do know what you're going through and I hope someday it gets better.
The way I see it, strangers as a general rule will just lie, cheat, misdirect, use and generally screw with you or pity you. I will not allow that to happen by opening up even just a little bit. Besides, I'm not much of a prize myself. The only times this doesn't happen is when the person is paid to be nice and not screw with you. Or interacts with you in a situational contest where these behaviors are out of the question. For example, a doctor, counselor, a customer service person. There are a few, and I mean few genuine people out there, but you have to sift through a lot of garbage to find them. It's not worth it.
It's not as if I want to be this way, I've been able to open up on Dr. Bob. This board and the people on it have done a lot of good for me. To quote Bill Murray, "Baby steps". :)
I don't think I'm your nemesis. Or a lesson. I think we could learn from each other. At any rate, if you want, my Email is socialdeviantjeff@yahoo.com
Posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 22:33:16
In reply to Re: Still ranting » Karen_kay, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 6, 2004, at 17:27:55
If a person comes across as aloof, judgemental, rude etc. I will reciprocate and add to that.
*If a person comes across that way to me I am sad. It honestly makes me sad and hurts my feelings. If I have to a stranger, which I do often or smile and they don't smile or wave back, it breaks my heart :( I think that sometimes to some people I may appear to come across that way, like to my friends, but I tend to tell it like it is. But, I love meeting strangers.. Honestly! I just think that everyone has a story to tell. That's why I want to do documentaries on "everyday people." I'm not interested in what JLo had for breakfast, I'm interested in what Socialdeviantjeff did this morning. And what his life has been like. That's what fascinates me.. How people cope and make it through the things they do, not how they dance or record albums, but how they manage to hold their lives together and raise a beautiful daughter! It's the little things in life that are important, like going to the park with your children, and acing a final, and that tough therapy session.. Things like that... I guess there's a reason that people come across as aloof and there's a reason that some people always wave at strangers... I want to know why!!!
If a person comes across as animated, friendly, interested etc. I wonder what is wrong with them. I'll probably be aloof or rude.
*If I met you, you might make me cry. And that's a task! I would be interested and it woudl be genuine, I assure you. Some people are interested in others and it TRULY is not fake or a ploy! I'm one of those people. My friend who goes grocery shopping with me often always makes fun of me.. I always have my coffee with me, I can't go anywhere without coffee :) And I always talk to strangers, ALWAYS! And I'm truly interested. I wouldn't bother to talk to them if I wan't. I just feel like that's why I'm here, to make connections with people. If I'm in a good mood and can spread it around, why not? I've spent quite a bit of time in a foul mood, so I make the best of my time that I have when I'm in a good mood. I'm not talking to people to "poke fun" or to "get something out of it" other than good conversation and to gain some insight. I guess maybe I am being selfish then. But, I think it is benefiting both of us.
Concerning your anxiety, I wish I could offer more than just empathy. I do know what you're going through and I hope someday it gets better.
*I figured out today where my anxiety is coming from. I had a therapy session and together we figured it out. It stems from something that I have been avoiding for a while and I need to deal with, but I just don't want to.... I have to but I just don't want to, you know? It's tough stuff man! And empathy works! I appreciate it!
The way I see it, strangers as a general rule will just lie, cheat, misdirect, use and generally screw with you or pity you. I will not allow that to happen by opening up even just a little bit. Besides, I'm not much of a prize myself. The only times this doesn't happen is when the person is paid to be nice and not screw with you. Or interacts with you in a situational contest where these behaviors are out of the question. For example, a doctor, counselor, a customer service person. There are a few, and I mean few genuine people out there, but you have to sift through a lot of garbage to find them. It's not worth it.
**I have a friend who also thinks this way. I don't pity people I talk to. I learn from their experiences. I have compassion for them (which I guess is similar to pity) but I don't pity them. We have to learn from each other. I think that is very important. Back to my friend. She's always talking about how she doesn't even care to know anyone. She has enough friends and everyone else can just kiss off, she says. But how can she learn new things and experiences if she doesn't talk to new people? When I hear stories of human suffering, I don't pity that person. I don't feel sorry for them. I want to learn from them. I wish I could BE that strong, to survive like s/he did! I mean, look at you! Look at how far you've come! You're holding it together, and doing so well! It makes me feel so great to hear about people who are out there making things happen, like you! It's wonderful. Why in the world would anyone pity you? I look up to people who can hold it together, as I suspect everyone else does too...
<I don't think I'm your nemesis.
* I was just joking about that... You did pick up on my sense of humor, right? It is quite odd sometimes :) It's just funny that we think so differently..
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 8, 2004, at 2:25:47
In reply to Polar opposites, baby! » socialdeviantjeff, posted by Karen_kay on January 6, 2004, at 22:33:16
Really tired.. I had a wisdom tooth xtracted and my mouf hoteth...
Anyway, If I met you ever I certainly hope I wouldn't cause you to cry. That's another part of my conflict. It's almost a good reason to have my anxiety back. I really don't like to cause people pain. I get no pleasure from it. It's this odd duality. I hate people as much as I like them. This is the part where I go around in logical and philosophical circles till I want to tear my hair out (figuratively).
Yes, I thought the nemesis thing was humorous. And Email me sometime. I'm glad to hear your making progress.
One last wandering thought. Have you ever read The Celestine Prophecy? It might be right up your alley.
Time to pop a Darvocet and go sleepy-bye.
This is the end of the thread.
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