![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 12:39:11
In reply to Re: I really need help on this.. » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 11:37:52
Hiya, Larry.
>>>>it's difficult for me to communicate it to the person who's making me angry.
>
> I believe that to be the core of your problem.
<<Yeah, I agree. Just not sure how to deal with it effectively. It was *inappropriate* and *unladylike* for a girl to ever be angry in my house......tough to escape.
>>You may even want to spend some time understanding anger itself.
<<My therapist gave me a book on anger, "The Dance of Anger" I think it was called. I didn't find it very helpful then, but that's been almost 2 years ago. Maybe I should reread it...
>> It is my belief that anger is a secondary emotional response. For example, she reads your personal profile aloud in the office, you're embarassed that your personal life has been brought into your professional domain without your permission, and you become angry at her.
<<I'll go for that. I wasn't *so* embarassed at her reading it (a little, not a lot) because I'm not ashamed of what I'm doing and not ashamed of what I wrote in that profile. I think I'm very angry at the fact she violated my personal boundaries *yet again* and I don't know how to stop it. So it's a lot about my powerlessness to fix it/stop it. My behavior is *not* effective, and I'm not sure how to make it so.
> The batty comes from your internalized anger at self.
<<Yup. The powerlessness. Don't like that feeling, powerless over my own life. Not at all.
> You may want to rehearse some of the recurrent scenarios, and possible effective responses.
<<I do that, quite often. Kinda worried it's obsessive. :-) And I come up with *great* responses to stuff she's done.....and I tell her that when she does it again, and she *always* does it again....but when something *new* comes up, I don't think that quickly on my feet...
>> For example, when she overhears and comments on private telephone conversations, you might ask your telephone partner to hold on, take the telephone away from your ear, look her straight in the eye, and in a level voice, state a fact. "This is none of your business." Repeat as often as needed.
<<Yeah, you are right. To me that's rude though, although intellectually I know it's not. It's respecting my own boundaries and making her do the same....> Developing and practising possible reponses in advance is like putting tools in your toolbox; they're ready when you need them.
<<Yes, I agree. I guess my responses are not effective. They'd be effective if someone said them to *me* though..."Lisa, I don't like to chat when I'm writing a report." Um, to me that means get lost....to her..."Oh, OK, I'll just sit here and read. I won't bother you."Blows my mind. I would've left!
"Lisa, your sitting at my desk is distracting while I work. Even if you don't talk, I feel the need to entertain you."
"Don't worry about me. I just want to enjoy the sunshine a bit (my office has the window).
"Lisa, please leave."
"Oh, well, if you're going to be like *that!*" Then to everyone in earshot: "Be careful! Susan's in a really bad mood! I wouldn't bother her if I were you!"
>> Part of the problem for you is that you get caught up in your own emotional response, and you have difficulty coming up with a reasonable and rational comment to her.
<<Yup. :-)> Another thing is, document the patterns of behaviour. It may sound petty, but should it come to a situation where someone's job is on the line, documentation may well tip the balance, particularly if you have brought it to your supervisor's attention more than once, without adequate remedy being offered you.
<<Yeah, it's informally documented in some e-mails that I've sent to a friend, fussing about the issue.> Some people are addicted to turmoil. They cannot have a calm moment. That leads them to feel panicked. I fear that's the problem here. She's got to be involved in something, no matter what.
<<Maybe. She went to therapy when her marriage was ending and the therapist told her she is passive-agressive. I need to do some research on that, cuz I don't really know what that entails. I know this woman has really poor social skills (she insulted my family one night when about 6 of my office mates were out to dinner). And I think she clings to groups because she feels left out. Other people like her just fine. I just don't.> Maybe documented patterns of behaviour will get you the office change you're looking for. I'm stretching.
<<Hahah! I dunno about that either. I've told my boss that she is distracting me from doing my work and that my quality of work is suffering. I think I wrote that in e-mail to him, by the way. And he just pooh poohed it. Well, he yelled at me the other day for slacking on a project, it was the first he's *seen* I guess of my decreased productivity. I said "see?" She's nowhere near the whole problem (ADs/depression are the biggest culprits), but I just figured if I could get rid of her as one of my problems, it would help make me stronger, give me a more stable work environment, and I could get better at doing my work...Think it's better to address this incident by incident, in a much more forceful manner than my previous comments, or to sit her down and tell her I'm having serious trouble with her behavior?
Susan
Susan
Posted by Poet on October 22, 2003, at 14:29:34
In reply to Stop Violating Boundaries? Long...., posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 11:07:28
Ugh, you have a space invader. My sympathy.
Space invaders don't take hints, it's time to go against your nature and be blunt. Fight rudeness with rudeness, I say.
Next time she stands there listening to your side of a personal call, start talking real quiet. If she moves closer, then say "I'm sorry, please hold, (pest's name) is there something you need right away? I didn't think so." Then go back to talking real quiet.
When she really gets to you say "do you want me to put this on speakerphone so you can hear both sides of the conversation?" If she says yes, shake your head and say "get a life."
Or say "she's listening again, hold on" To her "do you mind?" If you feel really mad, just add "and she can't figure out why her husband dumped her." Cruel but effective.
I agree with Larry H. that you should document as much as you can. Her touching your hair is sexual harrassment, it doesn't matter what the sex of either party is or any physical attraction. I'm not saying it's lawsuit time, but make it clear to her (hopefully with a witness) that her behavior won't be tolerated- ever.
Don't you wish there was an office pest exterminator you could call?
Poet
Posted by kara lynne on October 22, 2003, at 14:37:58
In reply to Re: I really need help on this.. » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 12:39:11
-You may want to rehearse some of the recurrent scenarios, and possible effective responses. For example, when she overhears and comments on private telephone conversations, you might ask your telephone partner to hold on, take the telephone away from your ear, look her straight in the eye, and in a level voice, state a fact. "This is none of your business." Repeat as often as needed.-
I like it!
Oh dear Susan, I swear That Person has been in my life. I think she's in everyone's life, put there to test us in oh so many ways. It always amazes me that someone like that doesn't get the point, almost forcing you to be uncomfortably assertive. Unfortuntely even that doesn't work sometimes, when you finally get there.
She did violate your boundaries--and of course pointed the finger at you. People who don't have boundaries do that. I think you are 100% right not to share anything of a personal nature with her again. It's unfortunate that your boss isn't hearing you about her-- I guess that means you have to take it up another notch yourself. It seems to me it might be easier to approach things as they come up, but I know it can be difficult to come up with an appropriate response in the moment. I think Larry's idea to rehearse possible responses is a good one, and you can always go think about it for awhile and come back and sit her down to talk about it when you're clearer.
As usual, I'm one to talk. I still can't get myself to confront my next door neighbors and beg them to smoke in a different area so it doesn't come through my windows. Dealing with things--ugh!
You have my heartfelt sympathy.
Posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 14:43:57
In reply to Re: Stop Violating Boundaries? Long.... » Susan J, posted by Poet on October 22, 2003, at 14:29:34
>>If she says yes, shake your head and say "get a life."
Or say "she's listening again, hold on" To her "do you mind?" If you feel really mad, just add "and she can't figure out why her husband dumped her." Cruel but effective.
<<Hahahah! Oh how I wish I could.....but I can tell her to get a life. :-)
Thanks!
Susan
Posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 14:48:26
In reply to Re: I really need help on this.., posted by kara lynne on October 22, 2003, at 14:37:58
> Oh dear Susan, I swear That Person has been in my life. I think she's in everyone's life, put there to test us in oh so many ways.
<<Yeah, I agree. I have been in the presence of people like her before, but not in such close quarters. We share a suite of two offices and I have to walk through hers to get to mine. I felt bad for her cuz she had moved here from Chicago and knew nobody, so I started inviting her out with me and my friends. Well, it soon became apparent to me we had NOTHING in common, even before she started annoying me. And I still can't get rid of her...> It always amazes me that someone like that doesn't get the point, almost forcing you to be uncomfortably assertive.
<<I don't get this either. But that's part of my problem. I shouldn't expect people to react the way I do.>I guess that means you have to take it up another notch yourself.
<<Somebody here had suggested my going to human resources last month....when it was bugging me too much then. Maybe I should do that....> As usual, I'm one to talk. I still can't get myself to confront my next door neighbors and beg them to smoke in a different area so it doesn't come through my windows. Dealing with things--ugh!
<<It's weird, isn't it? But I think I would feel even more hesitant if it were my home. You never know what people are capable of, and these folks *know* where you live....
> You have my heartfelt sympathy.
<<Thank you. :-)Susan
Posted by fallsfall on October 22, 2003, at 16:37:33
In reply to Re: Stop Violating Boundaries? Long.... » Poet, posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 14:43:57
I think that you close the door, invite her to sit down and tell her that she makes you very uncomfortable. Give some examples. Then tell her what you WANT her to do (if you are on the phone she is to leave your office, she shouldn't come in your office unless she is invited - she can knock, but you can say not now unless it is business, she is never to touch you etc.) She is NOT getting the hints. It is time to be so clear that she can't possibly misunderstand (for some reason I see one of those big paper pads they put on the stands in big meetings - you could write up the "slides" in advance. That way if she learns better visually you have that covered, too. Or do a PowerPoint presentation for her. What bothers you. What you want her to do.)
Close the door of your office when you are in (or out?).
You tried the nice way, now you have to try the effective way. (don't worry about being rude to her, she is being so much ruder to you)
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 16:54:40
In reply to Re: I really need help on this.. » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 12:39:11
> Hiya, Larry.
Hey Susan. I've been mulling this one over some more.....
> >>>>it's difficult for me to communicate it to the person who's making me angry.
> >
> > I believe that to be the core of your problem.
> <<Yeah, I agree. Just not sure how to deal with it effectively. It was *inappropriate* and *unladylike* for a girl to ever be angry in my house......tough to escape.It may still be inappropriate to express anger here, if my research is useful. What I found corroborates another thing I mentioned. It seems that the greatest results with people like this nuisance, arise from well-modulated voice (calm), and simple expressions of what is wrong. More in a minute....
> >>You may even want to spend some time understanding anger itself.
> <<My therapist gave me a book on anger, "The Dance of Anger" I think it was called. I didn't find it very helpful then, but that's been almost 2 years ago. Maybe I should reread it...Skim it, at least. Anger is a complex subject. I know I used it like a cloak, to cover other emotions. But I didn't even realize I did that. I also discovered that I had an "anger pit", a storage place for all ALL the unexpressed anger throughout my life. If I wasn't careful in expressing anger, I could deal out more than a fair measure. So anger had me trapped. I was afraid to express it, but not expressing it made it worse.
> >> It is my belief that anger is a secondary emotional response. For example, she reads your personal profile aloud in the office, you're embarassed that your personal life has been brought into your professional domain without your permission, and you become angry at her.
> <<I'll go for that. I wasn't *so* embarassed at her reading it (a little, not a lot) because I'm not ashamed of what I'm doing and not ashamed of what I wrote in that profile. I think I'm very angry at the fact she violated my personal boundaries *yet again* and I don't know how to stop it.Those are distinct issues. I hope you see it that way. Her transgression with respect to your dating profile was minor (I bet she was hoping it was a bigger deal), and your embarassment was small (I'm glad to hear), but the anger is an extra interpretation of the situation. They require separate acts to bring them under control. It's too late to deal with the precipitating situation, as you would best have dealt with that on the spot. It's not too late to deal with the second part.
> So it's a lot about my powerlessness to fix it/stop it. My behavior is *not* effective, and I'm not sure how to make it so.
You need to enlist help. I'm pretty convinced of that.
I think the situation may require two separate acts. One is to meet with your direct supervisor and discuss your productivity. Do so when your productivity is not at immediate issue, so nobody's defensive. Remind your boss of how good you are at your job, and then discuss factors about the workplace that are negatively affecting your productivity. Tell him you're concerned about your productivity.
The second one would involve human resources. You brought up the subject in another message, so I'm going to presume that there is a special department in your organization to deal with such matters. Nobody should touch your person. Nobody should touch your desk, and its contents. There are privacy issues, sanctity of the person issues, and you would benefit by getting it on record that these are issues in your own work environment.
Having done so, you also now have recourse, in the form of consequences, which may attach to your antagonist's behaviours. You don't use them as a threat. You inform her that she has choices. You tell her what is inappropriate about her behaviour, and if she persists, she will be reported.
> > The batty comes from your internalized anger at self.
> <<Yup. The powerlessness. Don't like that feeling, powerless over my own life. Not at all.You're not powerless. You haven't made an effective decision, yet. Your self-talk suggests there are no options.
> > You may want to rehearse some of the recurrent scenarios, and possible effective responses.
> <<I do that, quite often. Kinda worried it's obsessive. :-) And I come up with *great* responses to stuff she's done.....and I tell her that when she does it again, and she *always* does it again....but when something *new* comes up, I don't think that quickly on my feet...I'm glad you use that strategy, to plan your responses. Delivery is important, too. Not just the language. You don't want to show emotion. That's her reward, your emotion.
> >> For example, when she overhears and comments on private telephone conversations, you might ask your telephone partner to hold on, take the telephone away from your ear, look her straight in the eye, and in a level voice, state a fact. "This is none of your business." Repeat as often as needed.
> <<Yeah, you are right. To me that's rude though, although intellectually I know it's not. It's respecting my own boundaries and making her do the same....She's not playing by the rules that you are. That's not suggesting that you play by hers, but you must make yourself obvious to her.
> > Developing and practising possible reponses in advance is like putting tools in your toolbox; they're ready when you need them.
> <<Yes, I agree. I guess my responses are not effective. They'd be effective if someone said them to *me* though..."Lisa, I don't like to chat when I'm writing a report." Um, to me that means get lost....to her..."Oh, OK, I'll just sit here and read. I won't bother you.""Please leave my office." Just a suggestion.
> Blows my mind. I would've left!Because you're an empathetic sweetheart.
> "Lisa, your sitting at my desk is distracting while I work. Even if you don't talk, I feel the need to entertain you."
>
> "Don't worry about me. I just want to enjoy the sunshine a bit (my office has the window).
>
> "Lisa, please leave."Oh. I should have read your message again. :-/
> "Oh, well, if you're going to be like *that!*" Then to everyone in earshot: "Be careful! Susan's in a really bad mood! I wouldn't bother her if I were you!"What a bitch, eh?
All you can do to that is try and make as much eye-contact with your coworkers, with a tired wry grin, and a shrug. Prove her wrong, with your body language.
> >> Part of the problem for you is that you get caught up in your own emotional response, and you have difficulty coming up with a reasonable and rational comment to her.
> <<Yup. :-)It's about getting emotion out of you, on her part.
> > Another thing is, document the patterns of behaviour. It may sound petty, but should it come to a situation where someone's job is on the line, documentation may well tip the balance, particularly if you have brought it to your supervisor's attention more than once, without adequate remedy being offered you.
> <<Yeah, it's informally documented in some e-mails that I've sent to a friend, fussing about the issue.Time to go official. Come at it from your own concern about your work productivity.
> > Some people are addicted to turmoil. They cannot have a calm moment. That leads them to feel panicked. I fear that's the problem here. She's got to be involved in something, no matter what.
> <<Maybe. She went to therapy when her marriage was ending and the therapist told her she is passive-agressive.I looked at a couple web sites, and yes and no. She's more than passive-aggressive, from the sounds of things. She does use passive-aggressive methodology, but there's more to it, I think.
> I need to do some research on that, cuz I don't really know what that entails. I know this woman has really poor social skills (she insulted my family one night when about 6 of my office mates were out to dinner). And I think she clings to groups because she feels left out. Other people like her just fine. I just don't.
Here's a link or two:
http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/papd.htm
http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/> > Maybe documented patterns of behaviour will get you the office change you're looking for. I'm stretching.
> <<Hahah! I dunno about that either. I've told my boss that she is distracting me from doing my work and that my quality of work is suffering. I think I wrote that in e-mail to him, by the way. And he just pooh poohed it.Bring it up again, and remind him that you already brought it to his attention. I don't know how your politics works, in-house, but you might consider mentioning the human resources angle to him.
> Well, he yelled at me the other day for slacking on a project, it was the first he's *seen* I guess of my decreased productivity. I said "see?" She's nowhere near the whole problem (ADs/depression are the biggest culprits), but I just figured if I could get rid of her as one of my problems, it would help make me stronger, give me a more stable work environment, and I could get better at doing my work...
The Americans with Disabilities Act should protect you, non?
> Think it's better to address this incident by incident, in a much more forceful manner than my previous comments, or to sit her down and tell her I'm having serious trouble with her behavior?
>
> SusanYou must indeed address this on an incident by incident basis, but with a level-headed response that stays in real time. No references to the past, or inferences about the future. Here and now, this is the problem. After you've got a little of evidence recorded, and you've talked to the powers-that-be, it may be time to tell her you're documenting her behaviour, and suggest it's all up to her.
One of the biggest suggestions I saw, about dealing with a passive-aggressive individual, is to come to some sense of acceptance of their behaviour. Not approval, just accept that they're twisted. What can you expect from her? Hopefully, that sort of attitude will help you remain emotionally detached, so you can move on.
Good luck, Susan. This is a tough situation to be in.
Hugs,
LarP.S. Do *not* share any personal information with her, ever again. It's nothing more than a tool to use against you.
Posted by Ilene on October 23, 2003, at 0:52:31
In reply to Stop Violating Boundaries? Long...., posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 11:07:28
I used a book called something like "Coping with Difficult People" for a particularly Difficult Person and it worked like a charm.
But I also got one called something like "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" and I thought it was awful.
Ilene
Posted by Dinah on October 23, 2003, at 8:42:38
In reply to Stop Violating Boundaries? Long...., posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 11:07:28
Quite possibly nothing you will say will make a difference. :( My mother is a boundary breaker, and someone actually asked me to tell her to step back. I just looked at them bug eyed and told them I couldn't control my mother's behavior with me, I couldn't possibly help them.
Fortunately, it's possible for me to put physical distance between my mother and me. Sounds to me like not only are you stuck with her, but you're stuck in an office where she's going to be supported if you say anything too strong to her. It sounds like your bosses aren't going to help you on this one. Perhaps you should spread your anger out a bit. Your bosses should be trying to help your working environment, however uncomfortable they might be confronting someone. Does she only do this with you?
Have you tried the yelp? An office mate of mine used it to great effect with a touchy colleague. If he touched her, she'd yelp and jump (loudly and violently) and say he startled her. I imagine it could also be used for space violations. Can you make your desk uncomfortable to be next to, piles on the floor, etc.?
Sorry to be so pessimistic. I've just been my mother's daughter too long.
Posted by Susan J on October 23, 2003, at 11:02:15
In reply to Re: I really need help on this.. » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 16:54:40
Hello, Larry,
>>That's her reward, your emotion.
<<Maybe you can help me with this one. I know we are all social creatures and we have a basic need to interact with others. But I *don't* understand a person who *needs* to elicit bad reactions from another person, or *needs* to make someone feel bad, or anything negative like that. I don't understand the thought process going on.If I hate someone, and unfortunately I have, I withdraw from and ignore that person. I do not try to make their lives miserable. I just plain don't want to be around them.
Now let's complicate this further, and maybe she genuinely likes me. If she does, why would she want to annoy me?
What's going on here? I can do the *no emotion* calm thing when speaking to her. But I'd like to understand more about why she's trying to get negative attention in the first place.
And thanks for the websites....I'm going to take a look at them now.
Susan
Posted by Susan J on October 23, 2003, at 11:05:57
In reply to Re: Stop Violating Boundaries? Long.... » Susan J, posted by Dinah on October 23, 2003, at 8:42:38
>>My mother is a boundary breaker, and someone actually asked me to tell her to step back. I just looked at them bug eyed and told them I couldn't control my mother's behavior with me, I couldn't possibly help them.
<<Thanks, Dinah. Do you know *why* your mother does those things? Just curious. I sometimes feel like I've stepped over the boundary with questions I've asked friends, but I've learned to drop it immediately if they don't really respond. Lisa just goes right at it anyway....> Have you tried the yelp? An office mate of mine used it to great effect with a touchy colleague. If he touched her, she'd yelp and jump (loudly and violently) and say he startled her.
<<LOL! That's a good one! She doesn't touch me too often, but next time, I'll try that.>>Can you make your desk uncomfortable to be next to, piles on the floor, etc.?
<<I could, but then I'd be stressed from the mess. Although it's messy right now... :-)Thanks again. :-)
Susan
Posted by Susan J on October 23, 2003, at 11:07:15
In reply to Re: Stop Violating Boundaries? Long.... » Susan J, posted by Ilene on October 23, 2003, at 0:52:31
Ilene,
> But I also got one called something like "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" and I thought it was awful.
<<Thanks for the books tips. That title would have made me go right for the book, very appealing to me. Good to know it's not very helpful. I'll try the other one....
I see I'm gonna be reading a lot this weekend. :-)
Susan
>
Posted by noa on October 23, 2003, at 12:53:01
In reply to Stop Violating Boundaries? Long...., posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 11:07:28
Your therapist may be right, in which case it begs the question of how it would be dealt with if it came from a man? It might be easier, ironically to identify the behaviors as inappropriate.
But they are inappropriate no matter the gender. And even if it isn't an attraction thing, it is still inappropriate.
You are right about pulling back on the friendship and personal disclosures. Absolutely! I've done similar things where I disclose too much and am sorry later because I feel the person knows too much about me and uses it the wrong way.
Re-establish the boundaries you want as soon as you can. I think you want to establish that your relationship with her is professional, team, co-worker, etc. and to separate work from personal life. I think this will require direct communication (she doesn't get hints!) and then for you to monitor yourself so that you maintain consistency about the boundaries. I know from my own experience that it is so tempting sometimes to vent about something personal when it is on the surface even with someone I've decided to keep stricter boundaries with. And sometimes these boundary-invading types can be very "seductive" and I have to keep myself from lowering my guard and getting lured in. I have had to face my own part in all of this, too. I'm not much of a boundary invader, but I've not always been so good about establishing and communicating my own boundaries so that invaders know where the boundaries are for me.
You might need to stop hinting and spell it out in plain, assertive language. "I would like you to stop touching me, sitting at my desk, looking through my work materials, etc. etc. It makes me uncomfortable because I need more personal space than that and perhaps you didn't realize it, but when you have done these things I have felt very uncomfortable. I really want to have a good, professional working relationship, but I do need my space...."
Or something along the lines of "I've been thinking about my work and realize that I want to be more focused on the work and on working professionally with the team, and though I may have been sending out vibes of wanting to develop a friendship with you, I realize that what I want is a good professional relationship so we can work together as a good, productive team. This has to do with my own goals, including keeping my personal life and work life more separate. So, I really think you and I can work together well and make a great team, but what I need is to stay focused on professional matters here in the office. It is something I am consciously trying to accomplish for myself and I'm letting you know in hopes that you will understand if I don't want to discuss personal matters anymore. It is also important to me to have my personal space respected. It makes me uncomfortable to be touched at work, and I need to feel that I can step away from my desk and know that my work space will be respected. I will do the same for you."
I don't know. My wording is awkward and stiff, obviously. but I know that when I've had similar issues with confronting someone assertively but trying to be somewhat diplomatic, it has helped me when people model some words for me.
Good luck. It is a hard one.
Posted by noa on October 23, 2003, at 13:06:49
In reply to Re: I really need help on this.. » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 16:54:40
I like a lot of the ideas people are giving. But it is also sounding to me like you need to also protect yourself by keeping personal calls and emails to a minimum at work, and not doing the personal internet stuff at work at all. She is someone who doesn't get subtle messages and if you are going to try to keep clearer boundaries with her, it may take being very 'black and white' about what is personal and what is work-related, ie, not to give her any fodder for invading your personal business. Also, if a major dispute erupts at some later date, you don't want her to be able to point to your using work time for personal calls and personal internet use, as a weapon.
Of course, no one can eliminate all personal calls, etc. It is just a fact of office life that you will sometimes need to communicate with family or friends or deal with personal business matters. But I would definitely keep it to a minimum and if it is very sensitive information, take a break and go outside and use your cell phone or some other way of being able to have an important private call.
I'm not saying you have done these things excessively or anything, but because of the boundary issues, you want to be very very careful to minimize your own vulnerability, and that may mean sticking more strictly to business. I'm talking from experience, learning the hard way that letting personal and work boundaries blend came back to bite me when the company started cutting back on positions last year, and all bets were off on trust issues. It was very painful.
Posted by noa on October 23, 2003, at 13:23:27
In reply to People's Motivations » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on October 23, 2003, at 11:02:15
Susan, I understand wanting to understand the 'whys' of what she does, but I urge you not to put your energy into that. She is that way and was that way before you arrived on the scene and will be that way when you and she are no longer working together someday. She is not going to change.
But you can change the way it affects you by focusing on the 'what' not the 'why'. The 'what' is all the things she does that are uncomfortable for you, and all the things you can do to establish boundaries that will be comfortable enough for you to be able to come to work and do your job without feeling invaded.
It sucks to have to do this, I know. But when people (myself included!!) focus on the 'why' of another person's behavior, I have found that it often is because we somehow feel some responsibility that really isn't ours to own--whether it is "I must have caused this" or "if this is because she has some emotional pain of her own, I will be responsible to help take care of it" or "maybe I am responsible to help her change her personality".
OK, so maybe you left your boundaries a little too open in the beginning. So what. You didn't know she was such an invader. Now that you do know, you can correct the opening. But you didn't cause this. You said in your first message that it was all your fault. Wrong! Yes, you left yourself vulnerable and maybe sent some messages that you wanted her to be a part of your personal life, etc. But you did not cause her to seize on the vulnerability to invade. She does that. It is like having your window open. On a calm day, it feels right. But if the wind gets very powerful and might knock over the vase on the window sill---you close the window. Or the rain starts pouring in, you close the window. If you start to get weather reports that the climate conditions are such that it might be gusty and rainy for a period of time, you will keep the windows closed in anticipation. But if you go on vacation to a different climate where it is calm and mild, it will be ok to keep the windows open all the time. Same with people. You may be someone who tends to keep the windows open, and with many of the people you are around, that is perfectly fine. But not with this one.
Don't blame yourself. Don't get too involved in analyzing her beyond analyzing what will work to protect your boundaries.
Good luck.
PS--I don't know how big a place it is, but is there a human resources dept. in your company? Some kind of ombudsman who can help you with this?
Posted by Susan J on October 23, 2003, at 13:37:39
In reply to Re: People's Motivations » Susan J, posted by noa on October 23, 2003, at 13:23:27
Hi, Noa,
> I urge you not to put your energy into that. >
<<I know that's kind of self-destructive. I obsess about other people's behavior way too much. Like I don't understand why.....oh never mind, I don't think I can post that...
>>>all the things you can do to establish boundaries that will be comfortable enough for you to be able to come to work and do your job without feeling invaded.
<<No, you're right. I'm going to do this, I guess I still just wanted to know what her motivation is.>>But you did not cause her to seize on the vulnerability to invade.
<<I'm becoming unsure of myself here. She said to me, "but you *told* me you were on ***** You *told* me that! As a rationale for what she had done. Like I had sanctioned her knowing all aspects of my internet dating attempts. And in some respect, I guess I did open the door for her to go exploring the site. But telling two guys in my office? Not cool.
>> She does that. It is like having your window open. On a calm day, it feels right. But if the wind gets very powerful and might knock over the vase on the window sill---you close the window.
<<I like that analogy.
> Don't blame yourself. Don't get too involved in analyzing her beyond analyzing what will work to protect your boundaries.
<<I know you're right. I'll try not to. *Try*.:-)
>>PS--I don't know how big a place it is, but is there a human resources dept. in your company? Some kind of ombudsman who can help you with this?
<<There is one. I just don't know how well equiped they are to handle this type of thing....I thought of also going to my boss's boss. Not sure.She did it again. A friend of mine, whom I had told in confidence about my brother's marriage troubles, came in and asked me how my brother was doing. I was as brief and vague as possible. But suitemate said, because of course she heard this conversation, "K's leaving your brother?????"
I told her firmly, L, that's personal information and not something I want to discuss with you at all. I *should* have added that even though she can't help but overhear my conversations, it doesn't give her license to join in.
Thanks again,
Susan
Posted by Dinah on October 23, 2003, at 14:28:01
In reply to Re: Stop Violating Boundaries? Long.... » Dinah, posted by Susan J on October 23, 2003, at 11:05:57
I have no idea. But it left me rather oversensitive to inflicting myself on others. I guess it's easier to figure out our own motivations than others'.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2003, at 0:02:31
In reply to Re: Stop Violating Boundaries? Long.... » Susan J, posted by Ilene on October 23, 2003, at 0:52:31
> I used a book called something like "Coping with Difficult People" for a particularly Difficult Person and it worked like a charm.
>
> But I also got one called something like "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" and I thought it was awful.I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by octopusprime on October 24, 2003, at 0:19:14
In reply to Stop Violating Boundaries? Long...., posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 11:07:28
Susan,
I'd like to suggest a conflict resolution course for workplace conflict. I was sent on a three day course six months ago. In my course, we did a lot of partnered work to role-play actual workplace conflict and work through some of our problems. I thought it was very helpful (although I declined to be videotaped to watch the horror show at a later date.)
A quick google turned up a course in your area:
http://grad.usda.gov/cgi-bin/course/show.cgi/aip=5d2180w3M6Z,00V52OxpDlu1J0kS,49EiJdV.?course_id=10071415although the course doesn't run until 2004. The course description has less emphasis on role play than the course I took. You may find a similar course valuable to help learn techniques to get your needs met in the workplace.
Best of luck!
Posted by Susan J on October 24, 2003, at 8:35:50
In reply to conflict resolution course?, posted by octopusprime on October 24, 2003, at 0:19:14
Sounds like a good idea to me. She's at it again, though......too frustrated to write now...
Thanks!
Susan
Posted by Susan J on October 24, 2003, at 9:03:44
In reply to Stop Violating Boundaries? Long...., posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 11:07:28
Hullo.
Psycho suitemate strikes again. A bunch of us were out talking in the hallway before getting ready to go home. I said I was going to paint my living room another color, something like a warm apricot or something...
She said, "oh, that's barfy. Oooh. That'll be ugly."
I ignored her. Think that annoyed her? No one else responded to her either. I really wanted to ask her if her mother had ever told her, can't say anything nice? don't say anything at all....
But that would've been rewarding her with a response, right?
Susan
Posted by fallsfall on October 24, 2003, at 9:11:34
In reply to Another Small Incident. Did I Annoy Her?, posted by Susan J on October 24, 2003, at 9:03:44
Good control!!! You will win.
Posted by Ilene on October 24, 2003, at 20:14:35
In reply to Another Small Incident. Did I Annoy Her?, posted by Susan J on October 24, 2003, at 9:03:44
> Hullo.
>
> Psycho suitemate strikes again. A bunch of us were out talking in the hallway before getting ready to go home. I said I was going to paint my living room another color, something like a warm apricot or something...
>
> She said, "oh, that's barfy. Oooh. That'll be ugly."
>
> I ignored her. Think that annoyed her? No one else responded to her either. I really wanted to ask her if her mother had ever told her, can't say anything nice? don't say anything at all....
>
> But that would've been rewarding her with a response, right?
>
> Susan
>
>
Astonishing self control! I would've popped out with something like, "That's okay, I won't invite you over."(But maybe she's like me and talks before she thinks.)
Ilene
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2003, at 7:39:44
In reply to People's Motivations » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on October 23, 2003, at 11:02:15
> Hello, Larry,
>
> >>That's her reward, your emotion.
> <<Maybe you can help me with this one. I know we are all social creatures and we have a basic need to interact with others. But I *don't* understand a person who *needs* to elicit bad reactions from another person, or *needs* to make someone feel bad, or anything negative like that. I don't understand the thought process going on.Same process as yours, just influenced by different priorities.
Very simplistic representation:
You value affirmation over being ignored over getting negative feedback. She probably also values affirmation first, but she prefers negative feedback over being ignored. Feel sorry for her for that, and ignore her. That's the last thing she wants.> If I hate someone, and unfortunately I have, I withdraw from and ignore that person. I do not try to make their lives miserable. I just plain don't want to be around them.
Different priorities. Otherwise, the same as her.
> Now let's complicate this further, and maybe she genuinely likes me. If she does, why would she want to annoy me?I think she has shown some preference to interacting with you. Whether it is like is irrelevant. You feed her needs somehow. If you can figure out how to starve her, she'll "feed" somewhere else.
> What's going on here? I can do the *no emotion* calm thing when speaking to her. But I'd like to understand more about why she's trying to get negative attention in the first place.I hope my explanation makes sense to you.
> And thanks for the websites....I'm going to take a look at them now.
>
> SusanL8r,
Lar
Posted by Ilene on October 25, 2003, at 10:01:00
In reply to Re: People's Motivations » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2003, at 7:39:44
> > <<Maybe you can help me with this one. I know we are all social creatures and we have a basic need to interact with others. But I *don't* understand a person who *needs* to elicit bad reactions from another person, or *needs* to make someone feel bad, or anything negative like that. I don't understand the thought process going on.
>
>
> > Now let's complicate this further, and maybe she genuinely likes me. If she does, why would she want to annoy me?
>Maybe she had parents like mine, who constantly insulted each other? Where teasing (annoyance) was the principal form of interaction. I grew up fairly acerbic; it's still a problem. It was only recently I discovered that some people don't like sarcasm.
Maybe she's like me, and sees the half-empty cup first? And talks faster than she thinks?
Maybe she's like me, and thinks that if she proves herself "superior" by finding everything beneath her standards, then everyone will look up to her, admire her, and like her?
Maybe she doesn't see herself doing these things, and she's frustrated by your rejection, but the only thing it occurs to her to do is more of the same?
Ilene
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