![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by kalyb on June 27, 2003, at 10:51:12
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent? » Dinah, posted by Penny on June 27, 2003, at 10:29:13
I'm ruminating on this....
dimly recalling something about Buddhist concept that nothing is permanent, everything changes. It is the nature of all things to change.
If this is so, then Buddhists must have another way of believing and trusting in things. Perhaps the secret is not to trust external, but to trust yourself as well as accepting that everything must change? Perhaps the trust must come from inside.
I don't know the answer to this one, but I do know that we seem to have an inner desire to make things permanent or to have things that do not change around us.
Yet, if the nature of all things is to change, the paradox created by this wish must cause a great deal of disturbance. We are encouraged to be permanent, reliable; to buy and choose permanent things like houses - monetary values are based on permanence. I don't know how this paradox can be raltionalised....
musingly,
Kalyb xx
Posted by shar on June 27, 2003, at 11:00:46
In reply to How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 9:20:29
> Doesn't safe mean knowing that something will be there for you when you need it?
.......In general, yes. But not 100% of the time.
>Doesn't safe mean knowing that something won't hurt and abandon you?
........In general, yes. But not 100% of the time.
>How can something be safe if you don't know those things?
.....It is safe if you know you can handle it NOT being there at times, and you know you can handle that you WILL get hurt at times, and you know you can work it out with the other.
.....If safe has to be 100% reliable, only inanimate objects would be safe (and I'd exclude electronics). Things like dolls, stuffed animals, rocks, crockery, etc. But even those can be lost or stolen.
>
> Without permanence, trust is a risk. And risky is not safe........Trust is risky, period. Even when we are so careful and do our homework, and only let down walls an inch at a time, the closer someone is to us the more they can hurt us. I think it is important to believe you can survive if someone hurts you, or you can't open up to begin with. And, if we run away when we are hurt, we never get a chance to learn we aren't alone. That person can still be there with us, and work things out with us.
.....I'm talking about dealing with relatively 'normal' people now, not people with emotional disorders that make them impulsive, or otherwise unreliable.
.....And, finally, sometimes the way we want people to be trustworthy is fantastic (as in fantasy), and something few could ever live up to. In most cases, we can get some, not all, of what's important to us in a relationship, and get other important things from others (the person who gives you hugs may not be the person who you want to discuss books with).
.....And, really finally, you will get hurt. And, you will survive. You probably WON'T get hurt like you were when you were little or powerless or helpless. You are different now.
Whew! Shut up, Shar!
Shar
Posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 11:34:39
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by shar on June 27, 2003, at 11:00:46
No, don't shut up. I've printed out your post to think about it at length.
The problem is that I don't think I can survive. I've been hurt so many times, and emotionally divorced so many people to be safe from them. I don't think I could survive losing what I have left.
Thanks, Shar.
Posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 11:35:30
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 11:34:39
Posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 11:38:14
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanen, posted by kalyb on June 27, 2003, at 10:51:12
Yeah, I think that's probably the key to happiness. But first you have to learn to trust yourself.
I'll muse along with you Kalyb.
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by Miller on June 27, 2003, at 11:48:35
In reply to How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 9:20:29
Yeah. How many times can a heart break before it isn't able to be repaired? If the strong are able to be repaired more often, than those of us that are weak are destined to be crushed by the strong, eventually.
Stability is the key. Those of us that are unstable are the ones having the toughest time. Just once, I would love to feel safe.
-Miller
Posted by stjames on June 27, 2003, at 13:34:39
In reply to How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 9:20:29
Nothing is permanent.
Posted by Tabitha on June 27, 2003, at 14:18:04
In reply to How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 9:20:29
why is the ending so unbearable-- what meaning do you give it? does it mean you're not lovable? that nobody will ever take their place? that it's your fault and you've failed again?
Can you give it a new meaning?
Sorry if this is totally not helpful. Just my meanderings.
Posted by yesac on June 27, 2003, at 14:38:09
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanen, posted by kalyb on June 27, 2003, at 10:51:12
> I don't know the answer to this one, but I do know that we seem to have an inner desire to make things permanent or to have things that do not change around us.
>
> Yet, if the nature of all things is to change, the paradox created by this wish must cause a great deal of disturbance. We are encouraged to be permanent, reliable; to buy and choose permanent things like houses - monetary values are based on permanence. I don't know how this paradox can be raltionalised....I once had a therapist who talked to me about how nothing is like a snapshot photo, or a 30 minute tv show. We just can't attain some perfect level of stability and expect it to stay that way forever. It will never happen. It is such a paradox, since it seems to be what we all crave so much (unless something really sucks and you just want it to be over/past). And it's also why people have a tendency to cling to many things that aren't even that great - just for the stability and safety of that familiar situation. I don't know.... tricky question to answer.
Posted by yesac on June 27, 2003, at 14:49:35
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by shar on June 27, 2003, at 11:00:46
> .....If safe has to be 100% reliable, only inanimate objects would be safe (and I'd exclude electronics). Things like dolls, stuffed animals, rocks, crockery, etc. But even those can be lost or stolen.
I'm almost embarrassed to admit this, but I have a blanket and a stuffed elephant that I have had since I was 2 months old. I bring them almost everywhere - well, not if I am going on vacation or anything like that, but if I move, even if temporarily. They make me feel more "safe" as if having them is at least having someone, as if having them will somehow make things more okay.
> > Without permanence, trust is a risk. And risky is not safe.
>
> .......Trust is risky, period. Even when we are so careful and do our homework, and only let down walls an inch at a time, the closer someone is to us the more they can hurt us. I think it is important to believe you can survive if someone hurts you, or you can't open up to begin with. And, if we run away when we are hurt, we never get a chance to learn we aren't alone. That person can still be there with us, and work things out with us.I have been so hurt when I've lost some people in my life (including 2 therapists, and one of them quite recently). I think it will stay with me forever. But, I do not regret allowing myself to open up and get close. It makes me feel like I am really living, despite the ensuing sometimes unbearable pain. I also had an extremely hard time leaving my college the day after I graduated - I knew that even if I visited later, it would never again be the same. Not that it was even that great of a 4 years. The lack of permanence of everything is just so hard. But I would so much more rather LIVE than be afraid. Still working on that though...
Posted by kalyb on June 27, 2003, at 15:17:23
In reply to Nothing is permanent, posted by yesac on June 27, 2003, at 14:38:09
> I once had a therapist who talked to me about how nothing is like a snapshot photo, or a 30 minute tv show. We just can't attain some perfect level of stability and expect it to stay that way forever. It will never happen. It is such a paradox, since it seems to be what we all crave so much (unless something really sucks and you just want it to be over/past). And it's also why people have a tendency to cling to many things that aren't even that great - just for the stability and safety of that familiar situation. I don't know.... tricky question to answer.
------------------Perhaps the answer there is in learning how to let go...?
A link someone sent me, about non-attachment:
http://www.gla.ac.uk/~gbza22/sriordan/ch8.htmlKalyb xx
Posted by Emme on June 27, 2003, at 22:29:39
In reply to How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 9:20:29
> Doesn't safe mean knowing that something will be there for you when you need it? Doesn't safe mean knowing that something won't hurt and abandon you? How can something be safe if you don't know those things?
>
> Without permanence, trust is a risk. And risky is not safe.Hi Dinah,
I crave stability and to relax and feel safe. But I know there's never a guarantee that something/someone will be there when you need it. And no guarantee you won't be hurt. And it's really scary. At some level I guess you have to make a leap of faith. But I think maybe there's some safety in knowing that if you get hurt, you can survive it with the help of others in your life. Safety can be found in more than one place at any given time, even if no one source is permanent. (Does that make any sense?)
The thing that will be most permanent will be you and your values and fine qualities.Shawn Colvin sings a lovely song titled "Something to Believe In." If you can get a hold of it, you might like it.
Take care,
Emme
Posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2003, at 23:15:13
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 10:45:21
Dinah,
I think that I am starting to believe that you need redundancy for everything.
So far I know this is true for friends (one may be at their child's birthday party, or on vacation, or having their own crisis). If you have 2 or 3 or 4 friends then you have a better chance that someone will be available when you need them.
Clearly it is true for therapists. Having my group therapist in my back pocket helped me panic much less. Also knowing that there exists another therapist in the world who you could find who could help makes me feel safer.
I'm not sure what else.
Do you want to tell us what your pain is about? What is disappearing from your life?
(((((((Dinah)))))))
Posted by Emme on June 28, 2003, at 7:52:51
In reply to How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 9:20:29
Hi Dinah,
Fallsfall said some of what I meant better than I said it. The part about having different people to rely on in case one is unavailable. Surround yourself as much as possible with caring people and maybe that'll help you feel more anchored.
Take care,Emme
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 8:34:48
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent? » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2003, at 23:15:13
Thanks everyone. I will ponder your responses. :)
Awww, it's just the old insecutities about my therapist, I guess. Losing the office probably sparked them.
He usually gets a bit angry with what he calls my demands for a commitment of forever therapy, so it was with some trepidation that I mentioned my distress to him. But this time we had a gentle conversation about how scary it was to trust someone. It was all very nice. I guess he's decided to accept my excessive need for stability without anger and with a certain level of sympathy. (But not enough to allow me to have a backup therapist.) He's growing as a therapist faster than I'm growing as a client I fear.
But I feel better now. About that anyway.
Posted by fallsfall on June 28, 2003, at 12:45:43
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 8:34:48
Well, Dinah,
I hope your forever is longer than mine.
I'm not having any fun right now, but I'm still here typing away. I have more hope than I've had in a long time. Sometimes not-so-good things end up being really OK.
So how was the office? How was the traffic? What color are the walls?
What did you mean by: "He's growing as a therapist faster than I'm growing as a client I fear."?
You know, I felt better when I figured out what I was depending on her to do. That let me start to work on a way to meet that need without her.
8^)
Posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:10:20
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent? » Dinah, posted by Penny on June 27, 2003, at 10:29:13
Yes, I agree. There are no true guarantees for permanent safety. Change is a fact of life. I think all we can achieve is relative safety and stability. If we think that we must find the perfect permanent guaranteed safety, we'll never be able to enjoy any of the relative safety that we can have.
Not that this is the "be all and end all" book relating to this, but for some reason it pops in my head right now--have you read "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Spencer Johnson?
Posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:13:35
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanen, posted by kalyb on June 27, 2003, at 10:51:12
I am not well versed in Eastern philosophies AT ALL, but my impression is that in Buddhism, the appreciation of the present moment is much more emphasized than it is in our culture. To me, that would be a way to help accept the lack of permanence. OTOH, don't they also believe in reincarnation? If so, that would provide some comfort in dealing with death, which, of course is our ultimate change.
Posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:20:26
In reply to Fallsfall said it, posted by Emme on June 28, 2003, at 7:52:51
Re redundancy:
FF and Emme are right.
Try drawing a diagram--draw a circle in the middle of the page. Then, around that circle, draw a ring of other circles. You are the center. Each of the surrounding circles are people in your life, or things in your life that you get support from.
Hopefully, you have enough diversity there so that if one resource becomes inaccessible, you have the others. If you don't feel you have enough, maybe you can try to think of other sources of support to add to your life.
Posted by yesac on June 28, 2003, at 16:23:19
In reply to Re: Fallsfall said it, posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:20:26
> Hopefully, you have enough diversity there so that if one resource becomes inaccessible, you have the others. If you don't feel you have enough, maybe you can try to think of other sources of support to add to your life.
I think also that at times something or someone comes through as a source of support even when you're not expecting it and think you are all alone, etc. When I lost my therapist 2 months ago, I was totally devastated (even though I had known it was coming) and it was/is really hard. But I found that I was able to reach out and grab hold of my new psychiatrist who I'd only seen a few times. He was really there for me in the absence of a stable therapist.I think that maybe, if we look hard enough, there is always something to grab onto. And I certainly hope so!!
Posted by yesac on June 28, 2003, at 16:26:17
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 8:34:48
>(But not enough to allow me to have a backup therapist.)
I just thought that was funny... I have often thought that I would love to have two therapists to turn to and rely on instead of just one.
Posted by Penny on June 28, 2003, at 17:09:45
In reply to backup therapist! » Dinah, posted by yesac on June 28, 2003, at 16:26:17
It would be great to have a back-up therapist. I have my pdoc in addition to my therapist, but it's just not the same. On the other hand, my therapist gave me the card for one of her colleagues (sp?) in her office in case I need to talk to someone while she's away the next two weeks. Just knowing that helps.
Posted by yesac on June 28, 2003, at 17:22:43
In reply to Re: backup therapist!, posted by Penny on June 28, 2003, at 17:09:45
> talk to someone while she's away the next two weeks. Just knowing that helps.
That's good. If you are ever thinking of calling the crisis number in the CH phone book (OPC after-hours number), I'd just like to say that I really don't recommend it. I had a horrible experience with that! Unless you were really suicidal and really had no one else to call. But of course, this is just based on my one single experience.
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 20:04:38
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on June 28, 2003, at 12:45:43
> Well, Dinah,
>
> I hope your forever is longer than mine.Me too. :(
>
> I'm not having any fun right now, but I'm still here typing away. I have more hope than I've had in a long time. Sometimes not-so-good things end up being really OK.
>
I'm really glad. That's terrific. I'll try to hold on to that thought if I ever need it.> So how was the office? How was the traffic? What color are the walls?
>
Won't know till the end of next week. He told me about it, and printed a map of how to best get there. It's in a big shiny building in the big shiny business district. Yech. I'm not business district material.> What did you mean by: "He's growing as a therapist faster than I'm growing as a client I fear."?
>
Well, I'm glad he's growing as a therapist. I just wish I were growing faster. He used to have a real problem with dependent women, and whenever I discussed my fear of termination he got all defensive and angry. His stuff, by his own admission. I would argue with him about how he was misinterpreting what I said as a demand for forever therapy, when I was trying to discuss my fears. He's apparently accepted that and worked on his own issues, because he was really laid back and accepting this time. He teased me a bit about it, but not with any anger or irritation. So he's growing.> You know, I felt better when I figured out what I was depending on her to do. That let me start to work on a way to meet that need without her.
>
I depend on him to help me feel safe. I've never really known the feeling of safety from within, and only fleetingly from without. He swears that one day I will internalize that feeling of safety, and until then it's perfectly ok to feel dependent. Seems like a long shot to me.Thanks Fallsfalls. :)
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 20:14:56
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:10:20
Oddly, I've managed my life so that things have been pretty permanent. My friends now (except my online ones) are the ones I had in middle and high school. I've worked at the same job for my entire working life. I lived at home till I got married to my high school sweetheart, whom I had dated for thirteen years. Obviously, stability is very important to me. lol. Even the little changes bother me though. Thanks for the book recommend.
I guess I have multiple sources of support, but they're not interchangeable, making each one indispensible in its own way. My husband is a wonderful life partner and coparent, I couldn't do without him. But he's not safe emotionally. I don't quite know how to explain that. I guess I don't have a lot of friends. My best real life friend died last year, but I didn't confide a lot in her either, although I could have. My dogs make me feel good.
Maybe I do need to widen that circle, although I'm not quite sure how. I've met some wonderful people here. I dunno. Wish I could have that backup therapist.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.