![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by lostsailor on March 27, 2003, at 22:44:22
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother? » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2003, at 22:30:41
we would need to ask and it would depend on the comute. She is a bit neurotic, took after tony...lol, but is the best you can get. Makes great "dead chicken soup" as well.... Aurora & my pet, tony
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2003, at 9:06:18
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother? ours is for rent maybe., posted by lostsailor on March 27, 2003, at 22:44:22
You really have a mom like that?
"I feel like I just want someone to stay with me and tell me I can do it, and that I'm not alone, and that everything is going to be ok."
She does these things? My mother is more likely to tell me that the world is coming to an end, that everything is unfair, that everyone is against us, that my dad is a monster who eats small children for hreakfast (no, they aren't divorced), and that it's her and me against the world. But she did tell me that I could do anything, and in fact expected me to. :))
It took me to my teens to be able to tell her that things may not be as black as her drama queen stances would indicate, and to be able to tell what was realistic and what really was in her own mind.
If you have a mom like that, hug her lots and lots and thank her lots and lots. Tell her she's an inspiration to other moms who hope that someday their sons will be able to say that about them. (You don't have to tell her that other mom is me.)
Posted by bozeman on March 28, 2003, at 12:12:06
In reply to Can I rent a mother?, posted by kara lynne on March 27, 2003, at 22:11:51
Kara dear, I know so well where you're coming from. I wish I could come over and make you some tea and do all those things for you. But for now, all I can do is tell you that you are terrific, you can do anything you choose to, you are beautiful, everything will work out eventually, you are wonderful, the world is lucky to have you in it, you are smart and funny, there are good men in the world and you will find one who is mature enough to appreciate you, you are funny and sweet, you're exquisitely uniquely amazing and I feel better just being around you, why don't we go out, get our hair done and nails manicured (but not polished for me, thanks), maybe go shopping or just for a walk? Later we can watch a movie and have popcorn and pet kitties. (I have a purring sleeping Wally in my lap and that makes anything seem possible. :-)
I know it's not the same, but I hope that helped. You really are wonderful and everything else I said above, and I hope you know that. :-)
((((kara lynne))))
bozeman
Posted by kara lynne on March 28, 2003, at 12:16:33
In reply to Re: Oh you lucky soul.... » lostsailor, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2003, at 9:06:18
Don't you just feel that if you had a mother like that everything really *would* be ok now? I do. Sometimes I think either you got that sense of empowerment, or your biochemistry got that buffering (or in my case not) very early on. If you didn't get it not much else can fill the void. I think it left my nervous system permanently addled. My mother was distant, narcissistic, hostile. My needs irritated her.
Yes Tony, hug your mom for me too!
Posted by kara lynne on March 28, 2003, at 12:30:47
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother? How about a friend?, posted by bozeman on March 28, 2003, at 12:12:06
bozeman, you are too kind. How much do I owe you?
You will make a great mother and you do make a great friend. You know exactly what to say. No, it's not the same as actually eating that popcorn and petting that sleeping Wally, but it's the closest I've had to the real thing in a long time! Thank you.
Posted by kara lynne on March 28, 2003, at 13:51:18
In reply to How about a friend? Bozeman, posted by kara lynne on March 28, 2003, at 12:30:47
Now the boyfriend is saying that two weeks ago he was ready to give me a child, but the last bout of fighting seems to be a terminal one. I feel like the child comment is designed to make me go crazy forever; like oh, if I had just said or done the right thing my dream woud have come true. If I could have just overlooked his not coming through with anything that's important to the relationship, we'd be fine. He says our interests are just too different; I'd rather watch Friends then a Fassbender movie. Well guess what, I don't even know who Fassbender (sp?) is, except that it sounds really artistically groovy to say his name. I told him when we haven't been close (in any way) for the last six months, it's difficult for me to get excited about his work projects (which he thinks I don't appreciate enough). He has some major physical problems which affect his er, manhood that he refuses to acknowledge or do anything about. I know it's a difficult issue to confront, but I've tried to help, even when it's quite a lot for me to have to deal with (and really try not to take personally) as well.
Oh, if I had just appreciated his genius more, everything would be ok. Even when I do appreciate him he doesn't notice, because I think he is committed to me being in an adversarial role with him so he can constantly rebel. Anyway, the comment about the child has me wanting to tear things with my teeth out of frustration. It's got me hooked.
Posted by coral on March 28, 2003, at 14:26:58
In reply to Can I rent a mother?, posted by kara lynne on March 27, 2003, at 22:11:51
Dear KaraLynne,
I have (had) a mother just as you described and my friends routinely piled in her bed in the evening where she was reading. Her ability to let you know you could make it through anything was profound. In my mind and heart, she is the finest woman who ever lived. She is now in last-stage Alzheimer's.
Posted by kara lynne on March 28, 2003, at 14:57:02
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother?, posted by coral on March 28, 2003, at 14:26:58
How wonderful that you can say that about your mother. I'm so sorry that you both have to endure the pain of Alzheimer's disease. But it sounds like she left you with some great gifts which will last forever.
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2003, at 15:00:15
In reply to Re: Oh you lucky soul...., posted by kara lynne on March 28, 2003, at 12:16:33
Yeah, my nervous system is permanently addled, too. And my need for security overwhelming. I know I need to outgrow that, but it's easier said than done.
I wasn't quite fair to my mother though. She was terrific in a lot of ways. Instilling a sense of safety was just not one of them.
Posted by coral on March 28, 2003, at 16:06:41
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother?/ coral, posted by kara lynne on March 28, 2003, at 14:57:02
Dear KaraLynne,
Thank you for your kind words. I miss her terribly but, she was in such heart-wrenching grief after my father's death that the Alzheimer's onset, two years later, was actually a blessing. I do miss her but she isn't in pain anymore.
I can't begin to count the gifts --- from both parents. Truly, I am blessed.
Posted by noa on March 28, 2003, at 19:07:07
In reply to Can I rent a mother?, posted by kara lynne on March 27, 2003, at 22:11:51
Doesn't sound like any mother I know!
Just kidding, but really, my mom never did that kind of thing well, so I wouldn't recommend renting her. On the other hand, if you want some unabashed criticism, my mom's probably what you're lookin for!
Posted by noa on March 28, 2003, at 19:09:33
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother?, posted by coral on March 28, 2003, at 14:26:58
Wow, Coral.
I remember in college, overhearing one of my apartment mates calling her mom whenever she needed support. I couldn't believe it. I had no idea before that that anyone would call to tell their mom stuff that bothered them, because my mom was the last person i'd tell. And that her mom was supportive and helpful? That was a mind blower for me.
your mom sounds special. Must be hard to see her in her condition now.
Posted by leeran on March 28, 2003, at 20:53:15
In reply to Re: Oh you lucky soul.... » lostsailor, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2003, at 9:06:18
Wait a minute! I'm an only child but I could swear you were talking about my mom in this paragraph:
"My mother is more likely to tell me that the world is coming to an end, that everything is unfair, that everyone is against us, that my dad is a monster who eats small children for hreakfast (no, they aren't divorced), and that it's her and me against the world. But she did tell me that I could do anything, and in fact expected me to. :))"
I just started posting this week, on the Lexapro thread, but I never thought I would read something that sounded so similar to my mother so I had to comment. Oh yeah, and my parents aren't divorced either - but they should have been. And her mantra was "get a good education and a good job so you don't have to put up with some *&%$ all your life."
In all fairness to my mother (you know, the protective "guilt" thing kicks into gear about now), she is much better since she's been on Paxil. It's like medically diluting her ire by about 50%.
Oh no, I better flee - I just let a skeleton out of the closet, albeit anonymously ;-)
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2003, at 23:07:45
In reply to Re: Oh you lucky soul.... » Dinah, posted by leeran on March 28, 2003, at 20:53:15
Sis!!!
:-)
Don't worry about those skeletons. They'll cause no harm here.
I'm glad your mother found some relief with an antidepressant. Mine thinks psych meds are some sneaky plot and still refers to my taking them in whispers and euphemisms.
I do have a fair amount of compassion for her though. Her need for attention rivals my need for safety, and a lot of her theatrics stem from that I think. Disaster is a great attention getter, and she thrives on it. Also, she's so oppositional to everyone and determined to get exactly her way that her feelings that the world was against her weren't entirely wrong. Sigh.
I wish I could convince mine to get some help.
Posted by bozeman on March 29, 2003, at 1:01:57
In reply to Hey Bozeman, posted by kara lynne on March 28, 2003, at 13:51:18
Don't let it hook you. You are right on target, I suspect, with the reality of the situation that he was just turning it back on you. If he had *really* been ready to have a baby two weeks ago, the first time you heard about it *wouldn't* be on his way out the door (or after he's already out the door.) It's probably just another way for him to divest himself of any guilt or blame. He knows that to unsettle and disarm you the most, he has to hit you in the biological clock -- the one spot he knows will make you the most sad, hopeless, and insecure.
Yes, it's possible that his intentions were honorable, but it's not likely. It's also possible that he'll get struck by lightning crossing the street tomorrow, but it's not likely. I used to exhaust myself agonizing over "it's possible he really meant this nice thing instead of that callous and insecure thing" but thankfully, mercifully, I'm feeling much better now. :-) I finally have the strength (discernment?) to call a spade a spade and know when I'm playing with a guy who can't ever finish a hand, one who folds every time. I deserve to be with someone who can accept me as I am, faults and all, and isn't afraid for me to know him, faults and all. Someone whom I can trust completely, and who trusts me in kind. Someone who is ready to honestly love, in all senses of the word, and be loved in return. Kara Lynne, YOU DESERVE THOSE THINGS TOO!!! Don't let him pull you into a mind-game where you start second-guessing yourself. Believe it or not, you are right where you need to be. If you were still with him, how could you recognize and participate in the right relationship when it came along? You're too loyal to let yourself do it if he were still in the picture.
Any man who can't get the medical help he needs to preserve his life, because he's in denial, won't be able to be there for you when you need him most, in child rearing, illness, child support, whatever. Trust me, I do know how emotionally charged and delicate a subject this is for men, but what they in their fear and denial often miss is that the single greatest cause of "potency" difficulties in men our age (other than medication side effects) is vascular disease. That's right, heart attack waiting to happen. But the arteries in "that area" of the body are smaller and plug up sooner, so the first sign is potency problems. So instead of recognizing it for what it is -- an early warning sign of a serious medical condition, that if heeded, could likely be fully reversed, but if ignored, is likely a death sentence -- they get defensive and insecure about it because they don't understand what's happening to them and they think it has something to do with "them" and is not simply a fault in their circulatory system. But that's usually what it is, and it can be treated if caught early! All he has to do is go to the doctor and be honest and straight about what's happening!!! But what usually happens is, even if they go to the doctor, they don't open up about the difficulties they are having so the issue doesn't get addressed until they either start having angina pain or hypertensive crisis. (I'm sorry for getting on my soapbox, but it pains me that this is so little understood and so seldom addressed. This may not have been your boyfriend's problem at all, so forgive me.)
But I am absolutely serious about that you deserve someone who will be there for you and actively participate in a shared life together -- sharing joy, pain, love, sorrow, success, failure, in-laws, children, pets, running out of closet space, vacations, fighting over speeding tickets or dinged fenders or whatever.
I once knew a man whose wife left him. He was completely caught off-guard, and had no idea she was unhappy. He said he was the most crushed for one reason -- he "planned" to take her to her dream vacation spot, the one place she'd always wanted to go but they had never gone, for their "upcoming anniversary." Had he made reservations? No. (The anniversary was about four months after she left him.) Had he bought tickets? No. Had he gotten information on hotels, activities, points of interest he knew she'd like, or anything of the sort? No. Had he even talked to a travel agent? No. But he "planned" on doing it, if she'd have just stayed, she'd have found that out, but he wasn't even going to tell her now, there was no point. Yeah, right. I know this man pretty well, as I've been friends with both of them for many years, and it would have been a cold day in He** before he'd have taken her there. Oh, sure, he really did think about it, and he really did "intend" to. But he was in denial, fooling himself. That is the saddest thing about it, he really believed his own delusion, that he was devoted to her needs, caring, just misunderstood and maligned. The truth is, she was afraid to breathe for their entire marriage for fear he'd "disappear". He was so noncommital and elusive about absolutely everything that she just snapped one day, realized suddenly that she *was* living alone, just with another person in the house occassionally. She really cared for him when they got married, but eventually realized she no longer loved him because he wasn't present in the relationship -- there was no one to love, actually there never had been, she just hadn't seen it as she had been misled by her own feelings and needs into seeing something that wasn't really there. So she left and never looked back. She hurt, cried, threatened to go back to him a hundred times (but luckily never told him that, just her girlfriends) but eventually the crying stopped and life resumed. She dated several guys, had fun, and finally chose one whom she has happily lived with for about five years now. She says she may not marry again but she knows now what she wants if she does.
Sweet Kara Lynne, don't sell yourself short. You did the right thing by taking care of yourself and letting go of a relationship with a man who probably means well, but who when it matters, turns away instead of embracing you and your life together. What most of us need, and I suspect you do too, is a present, caring partner who values what you value. If he wasn't giving you that these last two years, chances are very good that he's unwilling or unable to give it to you at all.
Praying for you that you feel better, in all ways, and have the peace and strength to do what I know you can -- use this as a springboard to a new and better life, when you're ready. It feels like a sad ending, but you can make it a new beginning. I have Faith that you will.
bozeman
Posted by coral on March 29, 2003, at 4:27:02
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother?, posted by noa on March 28, 2003, at 19:09:33
Dear Noa,
Yes, it's tough (I miss her) but it's better than the wrenching grief she was in after my father died. She's a spectacular woman.
How are things in your corner of the world? I haven't "harangued" you about .... our joint projects.... because you've had so much going on. How's your dad?
Coral
Posted by kara lynne on March 29, 2003, at 23:57:38
In reply to Re: Hey Kara Lynne . . . be strong, OK?, posted by bozeman on March 29, 2003, at 1:01:57
bozeman,
Thank you so much for your reply. You said everything I need to hear right now. Yes you're right; he hit me in the place I get most sad, hopeless and insecure, and it is a fight not to get hooked.As for his health problems, you're right to get on the soap box whatever the origin of his problem is. If it were me I could never let it go this long. He's diabetic, so there are many complications, and vascular problems certainly may be one of them. He also has something going on with his hormone levels that prompted the doctor to want to take an MRI (possible pituitary tumor), but he'll probably get around to that in about 2010, if he's still with us. I did manage to get him to a doctor at one point, but he hasn't followed through with anything. Does he think this just 'goes away' for me? I understand it's a difficult thing to confront, but again, in a relationship it affects two people--something he just doesn't get. I must admit I am looking forward to the possibility of being with a healthy man. I think part of my problem is that I feel so damaged myself that I think I don't deserve a healthy man, or that I'd be too depressed and ill myself because of all the physical complications that depression has made worse in my case. So what if I find some wonderful man and I just feel too broken... I'm tired so I'm not feeling very articulate, sorry if I'm not explaining well. On the other hand I think ideally, in a healthy relationship you help each other be better people, or at least you like who are a little around the other person. I have found that I just don't like who I am around him anymore.
God, your friend's relationship parallels my own so much it's scary. I've been saying just the same thing, that I'm more alone living with him than I ever have been in my life. I guess it's worse because the illusion is there that you are in a "relationship"; people expect that you are a couple, people refer to him as my husband when we go out together. That one just kills me. Not that I would even want to marry him at this point, but it's like rubbing salt in the wound. And it is such a trap to listen to more illusion about what they 'plan' to do-- yeah, right. Just another five minutes and I would have been in wedded bliss. If only I could have been a more perfect woman. The other night on the phone he started getting into my character defects; another deflection from talking about anything that really matters between us. He brought up the problems I'm having with my friend right now-- another sensitive spot and he goes in for the kill and I'm instantly mired in self-doubt. I've got to stay out of those conversations with him.
I have to stop wasting energy thinking that I've wasted the last four years of my life with him. It does a mindtrip on me and makes me think I should stay with him--it's hard to explain. It's like I don't want to face the idea that all that time was wasted, or something. And very possibly that I did give up the last hopes of having a child by staying with this man (although I still hope against hope that isn't true).
I know I'll be better once I get out of here. This is the hardest part, agreeing that we're breaking up while I'm still looking for an apartment. I have to fight the vicious cycle of depression and lack of forward movement which I'm sure is made worse by being in the same environment as he (although we rarely see each other). I have been calling and looking into places to live though, so hopefully something will come through soon.
I can't thank you enough for your encouragement; I don't know what it is exactly, but there is a lot of energy behind what you say, I believe you, and it really makes a difference. You know whereof you speak! And speaking of that, how are things going for you and the contrite one?
Thanks again bozeman. I'm going to go sing "I Will Survive" to my cat while she looks at me like I'm psycho.
Posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:11:08
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother?, posted by noa on March 28, 2003, at 19:09:33
I know, I am always *sigh* heartbroken when I see this kind of relationship between women and their mothers. Maybe it sounds like an easy out, but I'm convinced that it would have been impossible to end up with this much self-hatred if I had had that in my life.
Posted by lostsailor on March 30, 2003, at 0:56:02
In reply to The mother void, posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:11:08
Kara,
I had the greatest parents and mom is still here to now be number uno and I am still filled with self-hatred...sigh
~tony
Posted by Alara on March 30, 2003, at 1:40:15
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother?, posted by coral on March 28, 2003, at 14:26:58
>
Dear Coral,I'm so sorry that you have to watch your mother endure this cruel disease. The sense of loss that you feel must feel overpowering at times. It is so difficult to watch somebody trapped `alive' in their body, unable to communicate or function. You seem like a very strong person to me - but just remember that it's OK to reach out if you need to and grieve.
My grandfather suffered from Alzheimer's Disease and it was very, very hard for everyone around him. Although we focus these days on memories of his healthier days, we will never forget the pain. Please reach out here if you need to.
In the end, good memories of the mother that you love will prevail. Your mother-daughter bond will survive this experience. But meanwhile, please take care of yourself and don't neglect your own emotional needs.
You have my best wishes.
Alara
Posted by Alara on March 30, 2003, at 2:00:33
In reply to The mother void, posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:11:08
> I know, I am always *sigh* heartbroken when I see this kind of relationship between women and their mothers. Maybe it sounds like an easy out, but I'm convinced that it would have been impossible to end up with this much self-hatred if I had had that in my life.
>
>>
I know exactly what you mean, Kara Lynne. My mother is a kind, gentle person with a good heart - but she always remained emotionally detached in order to protect herself. For my whole life I tried to break down her wall, to get to know who she was emotionally, hoping all the while that one day she would losen up a little to give me a big hug and reassure me about myself and the world.
My wishes never came true, and I spent four years in therapy crying about how alone and unprotected I felt. I always envied other girls whose mothers came to visit them and who rang them for a chat. When I fell ill from glandular fever and, later, depression, I felt weak, always having to rely upon myself and a therapist who filled in as an empathic but impartial `mother figure'. Gradually this therapist taught me to recognise my own internal mother and I grew stronger, but I always, always yearned for the quintessential mother.These days my mother still lives inside her emotional fortress, but I have accepted her for who she is, knowing that she did the best that she could. I love her very much and know that she loves me too. Mum loves people in her own private way but just isn't very good at showing it.
Kara Lynne, I have found it useful to allow other older women in my life (work colleagues, singing teachers etc) to fulfil some of the `mother' role. To fill the rest of the `mother void', I look with in myself.
It takes practice but you will get there if you persist.
Alara
Posted by coral on March 30, 2003, at 4:13:53
In reply to Re: Can I rent a mother? » coral, posted by Alara on March 30, 2003, at 1:40:15
Dear Alara,
Thank you. Very nice pick-up on my comments. Three months ago, while visiting home, I spent an hour literally howling.
Again, thank you very, very much.
Coral
Posted by noa on March 30, 2003, at 11:29:16
In reply to Re: To Noa, posted by coral on March 29, 2003, at 4:27:02
Hey, Coral!
Thanks, Dad is doing better. He is going to have a stress test to see if he should have the second angioplasty/stent. Meanwhile, he is on mucho meds and I just sent my parents info on foods that interact badly with the blood thinners (the stuff that is good for you, green leafy vegies, of all things, because of the coagulating effects of vitamin K).
Job wise, my buddies and I met with our immediate bosses and have an appointment with the bigger boss (not the top boss--we're moving up the ladder) about possibilities to stay on in other capacities after the cuts are made in our department. It is looking a bit more optimistic at this point, although some of the departments where there might likely be openings are like jumping from the frying pan into the fire in terms of bad management!! But it buys more time, I guess. I have one possible option, hopefully, that will be with a manager who is someone I work well with (we've collaborated on some work together this year), so if it becomes available, that is probably the direction I'll go, rather than the more closely related department with the horrible passive-aggressive manager where all the workers are angry and miserable (hence the possible openings!). But for now, it is still wait and see. But these meetings are a step in a better direction, because until we took proactive step of requesting meetings, we heard nothing about whether they wanted to try to keep us on board at all.
Messy house? It has been a tiny bit better, but not great. I also need to get my tax info together for my accountant. She probably wanted me to have it a while ago, and I do this every year--wait til the last minute. My house is full of mounds of mixed papers of varying degrees of value, from old unwanted circular ads to important tax documents, and it is a huge mongrel mess that I have to sort through to find the stuff I need.
I did have the heating fixed. YAY! finally. But the washing machine-not. I have to call the manufacturer, hopefully it is still under warranty. Actually I am pretty darn sure that when it broke a couple of months ago, it was definielty still under warranty. Problem is whehter I let too much time go and it isn't anymore? Typical!
I've had more energy lately, don't know if it is from increased fish oil doses, per instructions of my pdoc. OR from increased light and better weather (excluding today, because it is SNOWING and gross outside!!). Or from work situation seeming less bleak, and from support of the two co-workers that I've bonded with over the crazy work situation. Or from being energized into functionality when my dad was in hospital--interesting how that happens. In fact, when I returned from the weekend visit two weeks ago, I did something I have perhaps never done before, at least not in the past 15 years or so---I unpacked my suitcase and put everything away wihtin five minutes of entering the house! Can you beleive it? It really was left over "take charge" energy from helping my mom and dad with the hospital stuff. And perhaps how that put things in perspective. Too bad it doesn't last very long, though. I mean the attitude is still kind of with me, but the energy is not so much. I have more energy, but it is still hard to channel it in the right direction.
Hope you're doing well. Thanks for asking, Coral.
Posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 12:20:36
In reply to Re: The mother void, posted by lostsailor on March 30, 2003, at 0:56:02
well I don't want to say 'good to know', but interesting to note, anyway.
Posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 12:27:55
In reply to Re: The mother void » kara lynne, posted by Alara on March 30, 2003, at 2:00:33
Alara,
Thank you for your post. You do understand quite well what I mean. I am definitely in need of making those relationships (and I think this is so hard for me right now because I've had some kind of falling out with my main 'mother figure'). I hear those magic words, to look within myself, and I really hope someday I'll be able to do that better than I can now.
This is the end of the thread.
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