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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2002, at 22:11:33
In reply to The saga continues...Chapter 2, posted by Miller on December 24, 2002, at 20:40:00
I can understand why you feel vulnerable. It's really brave of you to open so much of yourself.
Miller, in so many places on this board, you've described your feelings of guilt and shame. Do you really think you are the same person now that you were then? A truly bad person wouldn't beat themselves up about their history. You say you've done things you're ashamed of. Would you do your best not to do the same things again? If you commit not to do the same things again, you've done everything you need for repentence, since you've already accepted responsibility and expressed remorse. I guess I'm treading close to being redirected to the Faith board here, but the Jewish religion considers it an obligation to forgive someone who is truly repentent. And my understanding of repentence is the three R's, remorse, responsibility, repair. That obligation would extend to forgiving yourself.
I don't know if what I say would mean anything, because you already know my position on shame. No one is past redemption. The past is past, and who you are now is what matters. Who you choose to become is what matters. You haven't been here long, but what I've seen of you on the boards is a person I like. Nothing you've told of your past would change that.
Now I'll leave you alone on the subject. (And sorry.)
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2002, at 22:12:55
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2002, at 22:11:33
Posted by dreamerz on December 25, 2002, at 0:25:28
In reply to The saga continues...Chapter 2, posted by Miller on December 24, 2002, at 20:40:00
Miller dear...
I am lost for words , all I can do is listen.
Best wishes.
Posted by Phil on December 25, 2002, at 9:12:37
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by dreamerz on December 25, 2002, at 0:25:28
Phew, I should just go with dreamerz answer but...
I usually meet the kind of person you met but they are female-I think they all come from the same part of hell. When you found out he was married, he already set the hook. It's very hard to see things as they are when you meet these people and you will do things that you would never do otherwise.
I've gotten hooked on some of these people and my judgement leaves me. I will do and say things that I don't understand. These people have a real loose grip on the truth. There's always your inner-voice saying that something is just not right. It should, he was dishonest from the start.
In "Don't Call It Love", the author says to trust your gut instinct about these people. That was my mistake in the two relationships I got into. Although I think I can judge people fairly well, these people have such talent at bullshitting, it's uncanny. It's very easy to think you love them.
The cure:
1. Awareness
2. Work on your self-worth
3. Don't sleep with them until you know them and have met their friends. b. These people rarely have friends that you can meet.
4. If the moment you meet them, there's a strong physical attraction, slow way down.
5. The first lie you hear, don't argue with them, just get the hell away. People in these relationships love to argue.I figure I attract these people because they can spot victims and so can I. But I know the beast well now and would be willing to lead an asexual life to avoid the same mistake. My two experiences were awful but I always had a choice.
But, by far, the best thing to do is avoid getting trapped.I hope I don't sound preachy or haven't assumed too much but I would risk it to let others know that these people are everywhere and you don't know true misery until you've gone through absolute hell with one of them.
My main message to you, Miller...
1. Let it go
2. Do not beat yourself up
3. You were doing the best you could(I believe that)
4. You have lot's of company from love struck teens to President's.
5. Love addiction is harder to stop than any substance.You aren't without friends here. You deserve unconditional love. If you need to talk you can email me at dotphilly at yahoo dot com.
Phil
Posted by mikhail99 on December 25, 2002, at 14:51:02
In reply to The saga continues...Chapter 2, posted by Miller on December 24, 2002, at 20:40:00
Oh Miller, I'm just aching for you after reading your post...You are so brave to share this, I don't think I could do it and I've done some things I'm really ashamed of too. I hope this is helping you and not making it worse. Everyone is 100% correct in that you shouldn't beat yourself up anymore. You are repentant and you were a different person then. You deserve peace and happiness now and I hope you are able to work towards them.
Take care of yourself!!
Posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 8:28:59
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2002, at 22:11:33
Dinah,
I honestly feel that I could do any of the horrible deeds from my past again. I do not trust myself. The things I did were wrong. I knew they were wrong when I was doing them (or shortly thereafter). I can't trust myself not to make the sme choices again. Yes, I am a different person now, however, that does not mean that history doesn't repeat itself.
I am ashamed of what I have done. I am MORE ashamed that I can not honestly say that I wouldn't do it all again.
Sometimes evil is masked in other ways. I think maybe I am evil, being masked in the personality and body I have been given.
I will understand if you can't see what I see. I deserve the misery and hurt I have (and will continue to) received. I feel like the saying "what goes around, comes around, applies to me. I am getting what I deserve. I just don't know how long I can stand it. Deserved or not, it hurts.
Posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 8:30:13
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by dreamerz on December 25, 2002, at 0:25:28
Thank you for the good thoughts. They are appreciated.
-Miller
Posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 8:33:37
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2, posted by Phil on December 25, 2002, at 9:12:37
Phil,
Thank you so much for posting. I hope you meant it when you said I could email you directly. I am planning on licking my wounds for a while, but want VERY much to discuss all of this directly with you.
I hope you enjoyed a wonderful holiday. You deserve a little happiness for all you give others.
-Miller
Posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 8:39:52
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2, posted by mikhail99 on December 25, 2002, at 14:51:02
Thank you so much for your kind words. I think I will be helping myself by releasing my life, abridged as it may be. It something I have never been able to do, much to the dismay of my psychologist. So, by sharing the story here, I am hoping to get the courage to be able to share it with my shrink, in detail.
I can't (won't?) stop "beating myself up" over it. I think if normal people knew of what I have done, I would be an outcast if I would be allowed to roam free. So, the only hope I can see right now is to learn to deal with the punishment or to end my life.
I am open to any other suggestions, but haven't been able to think of any on my own.
Posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 10:03:52
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » mikhail99, posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 8:39:52
> ...It something I have never been able to do, much to the dismay of my psychologist. So, by sharing the story here, I am hoping to get the courage to be able to share it with my shrink, in detail.
You need to tell your therapist as soon as possible. If you can't deal with this issue face to face, print out the posts and ask him to read them. He can even do this without you in the office. If he's greedy, ask him to cut your session short by that number of minutes, before or after (your choice), to make the time for reading.
> So, the only hope I can see right now is to learn to deal with the punishment or to end my life.
My therapist has been an excellent resource for me to end the beating up of myself. Yours can be too. Ending your life is not the only other option. If you can learn to deal with your punishment, you can learn to deal with forgiveness.
> I am open to any other suggestions, but haven't been able to think of any on my own.
Are you really open to them? I suggest you tell your therapist. I don't know how he can possibly help you otherwise.
Regarding what you told Dinah about deserving all the horrible things that happen to you from now on: talk about a self-fulfilling prophesy! How did this all happen to you to begin with? By believing you deserved the bad things this man put you through!
You have to start believing that you are worthy of decency and respect and a good life. And maybe you can't do that right this minute, but you will. And I have to say it again: tell your therapist so he can help you.
I hope the new year finds you on the path to forgiveness of yourself and recovery of your soul.
beardy : )>
Posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 15:20:33
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 10:03:52
Thank you for the words of encouragement. You are definately right about not being able to accept that I am worthy of decency and respect. Maybe sometime I can.
I am trying to get the courage to tell my shrink some of this stuff. I have hinted around about it. He knows I have major communication difficulties. He has also spotted when I am trying to avoid a subject. I am not sure if he backs off because he is afraid I will baulk or if he thinks nothing is there to push for.
I swear I can't make a decision at all right now. One minute I feel as if I have to talk with him. The next minute I feel too humiliated and scared. YIKES!!!
I am in a bigger mess now than I have ever been. It may be bigger because now I WANT to see my life get better, and I don't think it will.
Thank you again for posting. I will certainly think a lot about your post, but can not promise how I will handle your advise. If I decide right now to take steps, in 15 minutes, I will undecide.
-Miller
Posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 16:19:22
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » BeardedLady, posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 15:20:33
Miller:
You said your life may be in a bigger mess right now because you want to see it get better. That's terrific! Wanting to see it get better means that, deep down, you know you really are worthy.
Best of luck to you.
Beardy : )>
Posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 16:31:09
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 16:19:22
?????????????????
-Miller
Posted by Tabitha on December 26, 2002, at 17:04:25
In reply to The saga continues...Chapter 2, posted by Miller on December 24, 2002, at 20:40:00
Miller, if you find telling your story provides relief, you might want to see if there's a chapter of the 12-step group Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous in your area. Not only do you get to tell your story there, you discover that nobody is shocked, nobody judges you, and best of all, there are many others who have felt trapped in bad relationships, and done many many regrettable things. It's really great for alleviating shame. I found it even more helpful than therapy in that regard.
Posted by Mikhail99 on December 26, 2002, at 18:21:06
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » mikhail99, posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 8:39:52
> Thank you so much for your kind words. I think I will be helping myself by releasing my life, abridged as it may be. It something I have never been able to do, much to the dismay of my psychologist. So, by sharing the story here, I am hoping to get the courage to be able to share it with my shrink, in detail.
>
> I can't (won't?) stop "beating myself up" over it. I think if normal people knew of what I have done, I would be an outcast if I would be allowed to roam free. So, the only hope I can see right now is to learn to deal with the punishment or to end my life.
>
> I am open to any other suggestions, but haven't been able to think of any on my own.
>
>Miller, first of all define "normal". I mean, I think there are many, many people who have done awful things in the past and what makes them truly horrible is they don't recognize how bad those things are. You KNOW that what you did was wrong. I think that is an indication that you know you are not beyond redemption. But you must explore why you did those things with your therapist. I think he can help you realize that you wouldn't do those things again if you could do it over again and that you're not the person you were back then. That man you were involved with was the evil one! HOLY COW, reading about him made me so angry, what a scumbag. I apologize if my judgement of him is upsetting but I wonder if it wouldn't be healthy somehow to focus some of your anger towards him?
I just don't know, I'm not an expert but you got a raw deal in that situation and you didn't have the "tools" to cope. (Sorry for the psych jargon! EEK!) I know how hard I am on myself so I know how hard it is to stop beating yourself up over the past. Please try to talk to your therapist about this, whatever it takes. And please take care of yourself during this time. If you'd like to email me about this, especially when it's bad, it's mikhail99@aol.com. I check that mail frequently.
Posted by Dinah on December 26, 2002, at 20:22:49
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Dinah, posted by Miller on December 26, 2002, at 8:28:59
Of course it hurts. I think Tabitha's suggestion is excellent. And I, along with everyone else, urge you to tell your therapist. He can help you work through the next steps. Because there are steps, you know. There is a path out of how you feel right now. You just need a guide.
You remind me a lot of me in some ways, Miller. It took me a while to trust my therapist and to let down my own defenses enough to let him help me. Have you looked into the possibility of OCD?
Have faith in yourself. You can get through this.
Dinah
Posted by Miller on December 27, 2002, at 6:19:57
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2, posted by Tabitha on December 26, 2002, at 17:04:25
Thank you so much for the suggestion. I can't imagine myself ever speaking the words aloud. I don't think I am ready for that. I will, however, keep it in mind. If I do decide I need to vocalize it all, that may be an easier place to do it.
Thank you for your concern and good advice.
-Miller
Posted by Miller on December 27, 2002, at 6:24:47
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2, posted by Mikhail99 on December 26, 2002, at 18:21:06
Thank you so much for the offer of emailing you directly. I may take you up on it.
I used to think that "everyone" had a skeleton in their closet. I am not so sure now. I think that is a way I used to justify may actions or to minimize what I've done.
Please don't apologize for stating your feelings reagrding the bad man. In a way, it would be easy to blame him for what I did. I know now that I did everything on my own accord. He is still a bad man.
Posted by Miller on December 27, 2002, at 6:28:34
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by Dinah on December 26, 2002, at 20:22:49
At the risk of sounding stupid, what is OCD? I am not familiar with a lot of the abbreviations used here. It took me a while to figure out PB = Psycho Babble!!!
I have an appointment with my shrink on January 2, but I am not sure I will have the courage to tell him this stuff.
He has told me that if I want to leave him messages on his machine, instead of telling him things face to face, I could do that. I called three times yesterday, only to hang up. I don't know if I can do it.
Anyway, thanks for responding to my post. I will answer your question as soon as I find out what OCD is.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on December 27, 2002, at 9:13:26
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Dinah, posted by Miller on December 27, 2002, at 6:28:34
Hi Miller,
OCD is obsessive compulsive disorder. It is characterized by intrusive thoughts, and sometimes but not always, by compulsions to do certain things to reduce anxiety. It is an anxiety disorder.
Obsessions, especially obsessions about one's basic lack of worth or evil nature can of course be caused by depression. I just asked, because for me (OK, I'm going to be personal and self revealing here) they sometimes have more to do with OCD than depression. For example, after I accidentally killed my favorite dog (the light of my life) I felt compelled to keep obsessing about my carelessness and fault. Somehow it seemed that obsessing about those things could protect my other dogs from my carelessness. So in that case my compulsion was to obsess. I've also done similar things where I had to worry about travelling relatives, because if I didn't worry enough anything that happened to them would be my fault.
That may not resonate with you at all. It's my own angle on obsessing. But if the idea that if you forgive yourself and let go of your thoughts of unworthiness fills you with fear (for example, fear that you may repeat your mistakes), you might be like me in feeling compelled to obsess. And you might want to look into OCD. Especially the type of OCD known in old fashioned times as scrupulousness.
If it doesn't resonate, just ignore the whole thing. :)
Posted by Miller on December 27, 2002, at 9:24:59
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by Dinah on December 27, 2002, at 9:13:26
Wow. That is very similar to how I feel a lot of the times. My husband constantly says I am a worrier or a planner to the extreme and how I can't let ANYTHING go.
I obsess over my next shrink appointments as I am walking out the door. Or I obsess about what I did say in the session or what I should have said, etc.
There have been times when I can't sleep or "lose" hours of a day just thinking constantly or worrying about something.
That is how I feel about killing myself. I literally can't stop thinking about it. I actually visualize it. Sometimes I actually can see myself shooting myself, wrecking my car, asphixiating myself, etc. I can't stop thinking about it.
I read somewhere that suicide is either to escape pain or to cause pain to others. I can admit that I would not kill myself to make others feel bad. (Such as "I'll show them!!" attitude.) But I continually think about how I will feel to be taking the final step into finding piece. I have been thinking about this so much, my work is MONTHS behind. I will probably be fired very soon.
Anyway, if you could tell me more about it, I would appreciate it. How do you cope? How do you lessen the anxiety?
Thank you for the information.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on December 27, 2002, at 13:42:17
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Dinah, posted by Miller on December 27, 2002, at 9:24:59
Well, I'm no huge fan of psychotropic medications, but I think that short term an SSRI like Luvox might work wonders. It took away the obsessions and worries enough for me to work on my ways of thinking and relating in therapy. At any rate you might bring it up with your therapist and see what he thinks. Of course, ruminating is also a part of depression, but it does sound like you may have an anxiety disorder of some sort, OCD or generalized anxiety disorder. Meds give you the stable base you need to work on things in therapy instead of just spinning your wheels in an endless obsessive loop. I don't take them any more, and my therapist helps me gently untangle the loop myself. But I needed them for a while.
Posted by Miller on December 27, 2002, at 14:04:05
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by Dinah on December 27, 2002, at 13:42:17
Thanks Dinah,
I have been diagnosed with anxiety. I am not sure about the specifics of it. I think my doctor and psychologist have been more concerned with my suicidal thoughts as a priority. Maybe if we can work on the depression and the anxiety, I will make it through. Who knows?
My next appointment with my psychologist is Jnauary 2 (seems like an eternity). And I see my doctor again January 7.
We (all three of us) have decided that I will be taking 3 weeks off in January for "concentrated" therapy. It is their opinion that by relieving myself of pressure such as school and work I will be able to handle my extreme emotions while I sort through my crap. I really have high hopes for it, although I am pretty scared.
I wish I had someone to talk to about all of this. I feel like calling my shrink, but wouldn't know what to say. I also don't think it is fair to intrude on his vacation time. Anyway, thank you for all the information. I will run it past both of them after the new year.
-Miller
Posted by Tabitha on December 27, 2002, at 19:31:23
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Dinah, posted by Miller on December 27, 2002, at 14:04:05
Miller, I just want to encourage you to call the shrink if you need to. Don't worry about whether it's fair to intrude on his holiday, since he's free to decide whether to return your call, or how much time he can give you. I'd venture to guess that shrinks must get a lot of calls this time of year, since so many are stressed by the holidays. It's probably like April for tax accountants. Anyway, protecting his vacation is his job, not yours.
Posted by Miller on December 28, 2002, at 11:29:09
In reply to Re: The saga continues...Chapter 2 » Miller, posted by Tabitha on December 27, 2002, at 19:31:23
Thank you for the advise. I am really considering calling my shrink. I have already had a really rough day. We only have to work a half day. I had to tell the senior partner that I will be taking three weeks off. When I asked him if I would still have my job his response was "I don't know! Someone has to do the work." Gee, I feel better knowing I know nothing more now than I did before I went in there.
Anyway, as if I didn't have enough to worry about, I could soon be unemployed. Just what I need.
This is the end of the thread.
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