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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2001, at 4:17:56
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Dinah, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:12:01
Hi sar,
I do understand all of that, and I'm sorry if that didn't come through in my post. I've felt the emotional numbness and know how awful it feels. In fact, to some extent I still feel it. The sheer magnitude of the tragedy is hard to comprehend. The videos often seem like a bad movie scene. The still photos affect me much more, as did Krazy Kat's description.
I also understand that not wanting to live does make it hard to feel scared. My deepest sympathy lies for those left behind to grieve. I can't imagine what I would do if it were my husband in those towers. I can't imagine what I would tell my son.
I hope that you have a good therapist that you can discuss your feelings with. I've been a mess since this happened, in ways that have seemingly had no connection to the tragedy at all. It seems as if the "sad" and "angry" and "generally upset" doors have all opened and are flooding out all over.
I hope you understand that I wasn't trying to be unsupportive or critical. It's just that this issue is a sensitive one to many people right now (and in different ways). That's why I really didn't want to post about it.
I'm sorry if my post in any way contributed to your distress.
Very sincerely,
Dinah
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 11:52:13
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2001, at 4:17:56
Dinah,
thank you for your kind understanding. it really pleases and amazes me that you can respnd with such empathy even though you feel completely differently than i do about what is, i agree, a national tragedy.
you did not contribute at all to my distress. it makes me feel a little bit lighter knowing that some understand.
intellectually, i can envision the photos i've seen, feel bad at the sheer magnitude of the numbers of people who died such gruesome deaths, i can think about all of this in my head, it just hasn't travelled down to my heart yet. my stomach only feels bad because i don't feel anything.
thank you.
sincerely,
sar
Posted by Marie1 on September 29, 2001, at 15:47:24
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » Dinah, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 11:52:13
Sar,
You are absolutely right - what you wrote in this thread is totally appropriate. You are being honest and open about your feelings. I apologise if I came across as being judgemental (actually I regretted posting as soon as I did. Where's the "undo"??). I was sincerely trying to understand how you felt - I'm a good one for wearing someone else's moccasins. And I think maybe I get it now. It's like how I quit wearing my seatbelt when at the worst in my illness. It's so hard to give a sh*t about anything. And physical proximity probably does count for some emotions. It makes me cry to read of a neighbor I didn't really know who was on the flight that crashed into the Pentagon. I truly don't think I could cope with body parts strewn over my neighborhood. And in all honesty- now don't get mad (:-)- I think age may be a factor here, too. I think as we get older, we hopefully become more compassionate and more aware of the fragility of the short time we spend here. (Please don't take that to be patronizing; I really don't intend it to be.)
Again, I'm sorry that I put you on the spot and that you felt the need to defend yourself. Take care, Sar.
Marie> Dinah,
>
> thank you for your kind understanding. it really pleases and amazes me that you can respnd with such empathy even though you feel completely differently than i do about what is, i agree, a national tragedy.
>
> you did not contribute at all to my distress. it makes me feel a little bit lighter knowing that some understand.
>
> intellectually, i can envision the photos i've seen, feel bad at the sheer magnitude of the numbers of people who died such gruesome deaths, i can think about all of this in my head, it just hasn't travelled down to my heart yet. my stomach only feels bad because i don't feel anything.
>
> thank you.
>
> sincerely,
> sar
Posted by Jane D on September 29, 2001, at 20:21:41
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Dinah, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:12:01
> the drugs have numbed me a bit.
>
> i just don't feel terrified because--i would love to be bombed. i'm deeply suicidal. i do not value my own life, so how much can i truly value the lives of others? really?
>
> i wouldn't mind dying by terrorist attack.
>
> i feel my suicidal frame of mind makes it more difficult for me to sympathize.
Sar - I've been wondering when someone would raise this. I didn't have the nerve to do it myself. Over time I've seen people here report being unable to care about friends, relatives, even spouses and get understanding because we all know this is part of the nature of the beast. Why shouldn't the same understanding apply to being unable to care for strangers? I also think fear is a large part of most peoples reactions right now. As soon as it happened I started doing a mental analysis of just how near I lived to any other likely targets (and just how likely they were) and I know I wasn't alone in this. We focus our energy on the things that are the biggest threat to us personally. Not wanting to live is probably a greater risk in your life than terrorist attack. It is in mine. It will also impair your life far more than the loss of privacy, increased security checks or falling economy that others fear will.I wonder if this also ties in to the ongoing stigma attached to mental illness. The stigma on physical disabilities or illnesses* has been successfully attacked by repeating "Look, we're just like you. We value the same things - react the same way". The mentally ill can't always make that claim. How they react may be unpredictable and therefore legitimately frightening. Not people you want backing you up in a tight spot. Therefore stigmatized and shunned as a form of self defense.
Just talking out loud.
Jane
* I am using physical here to describe visible disabilites such as being unable to walk. Not causality.
Posted by Kristi on September 29, 2001, at 21:37:21
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:58:43
Sar,
Your honesty is refreshing... and you definately can't help the way you feel..... you can't make yourself feel something. I also feel very differently than you.... but would never fault you. I admire your courage to write something that I know you know you would have been attacked for. If there is one thing we've learned.... life may be very short for some.... so just in case it's you... or one of us.... be happy. I hate to hear you sound so pained. I really wish I can help. Hang in there.... I need you around. Love, Kristi
> > Sar,
> > I'm assuming I was one of the "few" who misinterpreted your response to our national tragedy in the earlier thread. But after reading this, I don't think I did. I don't see how you can accept the crime against our country, as though it's something we must have deserved, when you read and watch the affects of it on the victims? How can these be separated? How can this horror ever be justified, on any level, political or otherwise? I'm really struggling to understand your position.
> > Marie
>
> dear Marie,
>
> please read my response to Wendy, because that explains my position as eloquently as i can handle right now.
>
> i am not a patritoic american.
>
> am i upset that this has happened? yes, very much so. do i feel it viscerally? no. as i posted to Wendy, i don't want to get into any type of political argument. we are posting on PSYCHO-SOCIAL BABBLE, and i am only honestly revealing, somewhat flippantly, embarrassedly, horribly, how i truly feel. as i posted to Wendy, i'm not politcally correct. im' not proud to be an american. i feel we terribly exploit other countries and that most americans are not aware of the extent.
>
> i wish i could feel more for new york, i wish it would make me scream and sob, i wish i wish i i wish i wish i wish i wish
>
>
> but i don't
>
> & i don't lie
>
> maybe i've lost my humanity, as Wendy suggests. in my mind thought, it's just that i can't comprehend: you know how they say no one can comprehend the size/space/time of the universe/cosmos? i can't understand this tragedy because i did not see it firsthand.
>
> again, i want to stress that i wish to offend no one: i'm simply expressing how i feel where i feel it is appropriate.
>
> sincerely,
> sar
>
>
> > > this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
> > >
> > > i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
> > >
> > > i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
> > >
> > > an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
> > >
> > > rilly.
> > >
> > > love,
> > >
> > > sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by galtin on September 30, 2001, at 0:43:55
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
> this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
>
> i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
>
> i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
>
> an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
>
> rilly.
>
> love,
>
> sarthesecretmallratsar- It is hard for me to take in the "World Trade Center Tragedy" but am deeply saddened when I read about particular individuals who died. Is this a character defect? Maybe. But maybe it's also due to everybody talking too much (as I prattle on). And I find what people talk about often distracting and unsettling.
For example, I have heard scores of people pronounce that "nothing will ever be the same." I suppose we could debate the meaning of "nothing," but on a common sense level these assertions are silly. Sure, some things will change--airport security, access by care into NYC, people's sense of vulnerability. But these and other changes will either will eventually melt into "normalcy." But deeper changes in our national psyche, in our acquisitive nature, in our reliance on the estimation of others for our self-worth, in our frequent selfishness? History provides us with overwhelming evidence that none of this will change. Sure, there is going to be alot of self-congratulatory talk about how courageous, generous and relilient we Americans are. And it is true, sometimes. But by talking so damn much about it we suffocate the actual experience of being these things and substitute the surreal experience of hearing others and ourselves talk about it. Same with the tragedy itself. After awhile all the palaver, esp. on TV overshadows the tragedy itself and the almost unbearable sad fates of so many people. With our penchant for the overdramatization of our own reactions we dishonor those who died and those who will be without them.
And after all this self-inspection we will eventually wake up to realize that very little has changed. Maybe one of the reasons behind so much talk is that many Americans don't realize the this and far, far worse has happened innumerable times in the course of history. In the past year or two alone, tens of thousands have lost their lives to brutality and butchery.
In fact, we have mostly forgotten the ultimate lesson of the Titanic, the sinking of which produced a national crisis of confidence and a conflagration of soul-searching and "reprioritizing." What came of it all? Was everything changed forever?This recent disaster is a tragedy partly because untimately nothing redemptive or transforming will come of it. 99.9% of us will drift back into the ebb and flow of our lives and concerns.
What I am increasingly hearing is little in the way of sadness for the victims and much more in the way of a focus on our own feelings. And so, once again, the real topic of concern is. . . me. Yesterday I heard a person talk in excrutiating detail about her cousin's boyfriends, step-brothers uncle's angle of vision from New Jersey as the Twin Towers came down. I hear this stuff all the time. Along with the wearying platitudes about all evil giving birth to good, God bringing meaning from tragedy and other confidently stated certainties about what it all means. There is no ultimate meaning that redeems the loss of 6,000 lives. The world we live in is(was, and will be) subject to the passions of evil, the disinterest of the self-absorbed, our love of overdramatization, and to the impossibility of a perfect freedom from calamity and fear.
Maybe all it means is that like every century of human existence there are evil people around to provide fleeting reminders that we are always vulnerable, from attacks without and certainly from attacks that come from deep within ourselves.
I know that this is somewhat exaggerated. I know that many people have genuine feelings of sorrow and horror. These feelings have unassailable authenticity. They would be more ennobled if we quit talking about them and quit trying draw some lesson for life from it all.
Now I will try out my own entreaty, and shut up.
galtin
Posted by Wendy B. on September 30, 2001, at 7:40:58
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » Wendy B., posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:41:14
sar:
i'm an ass.......
i have to curb the impulse to make everyone try to feel what i do, when of course, they don't always.
i don't think you need to justify yourself. i don't want you to think you can't feel safe talking about your feelings, that would be bad for you and for the PS-Board. i'm glad you've written back, to me and the others. maybe it'll be a way to work out some of the numbness.
my tendency is to over-empathize, so as not to get to my own feelings - just focus on the feelings of others who are in pain.
next time i write: 'some things are better left unsaid,' i should take it to heart myself. i never meant to hurt you. and i should keep myself in check better. so please keep writing, i'll still be listening...
yer frend,
wemdy
Posted by shelliR on September 30, 2001, at 12:07:57
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
> an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
>
> rilly.
>
> love,
>
> sarthesecretmallratSar, generally I love your posts and have great feeling for you. The thing that is irriating me about your posts in this thread and the other is that you keep saying that you want to deal with your response on a emotional level, not a political level.
So I understand the feelings and the numbness. But I don't think you have been true to your word. At least twice you have mentioned, "i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree."
That to me that is not an statement; it is a political statement. And the fact that you say you do not feel patriotic or proud of your country. Those also are political statements. So I don't think you are being totally up front. I think you *do* have political feelings that are mixed up in this . Which would be fine if you didn't keep running away from that fact, and coming to the conclusion that no one is understanding you because you really want to have feelings, but you can't.
When I was much younger than you and marched against the Vietnam War, I felt it was my responsiblity to let our goverment know that I was totally against their policy. So that was a political statement. It was different in my mind from an unpatriotic statement, because the United States is my country, and I had (and have) the freedom to say that I believe that our government's policy was not a good one. So I do understand what it feels like to disagree with your own government.
But as you have said. This thread is not about political beliefs. (Or is it?)
Shelli
>
Posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 22:53:58
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Marie1 on September 29, 2001, at 15:47:24
not at all a problem, i took no offense.
i do agree that age can be a great determining factor in ability to empathize.
at this point i'm only disgusted with the commercial aspects of this. at work we just received a shipment of WTC calendars. for every purchase, $1 goes to a widows & childrens fund. the intentions sound good but it still leaves a sick feeling in my stomach.
i'm just glad you understand. i'm not very good at putting myself in the other's mocassins, i'm afraid--it's a skill i'm still working on (starting to work on?)
goodnight, marie.
love,
sar
Posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 23:09:13
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Jane D on September 29, 2001, at 20:21:41
well, i've always been a hellraiser & all... :)
over a period of months, i cried my eyes out over some close friend of mine who didn't understand my perdition. his way is to draw away when other people are down; my way id to rush to them. if i had the time and money, i'd be in NYC to help out. but down here in my texan existence, i've poor object-constancy.
are suicidal thoughts the greatest threat to your life? they are mine. that puts it in such bizarre perspective, all the go-getter WTC people murdered for irrational and disgusting reasons--i try to read about them in the paper individually so that i can care more, but sometimes it just swings back the opposite way, because you know what they always say about the deceased..."he was always a hero" etc what have you, even though it may be true it just gets redundant...
do you find that depression is largely a selish/selfless illness? the feeling of not existing mixed with being obsessed with that feeling?
so right you are about impairment. they can look through my bag but will the neurontin kick in, will i make i through the day?
you're a smartypants, Jane. it seems like you just hopped into PSB, i don't know if you're new or not, but i like what you have to say.
sar
Posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 23:14:39
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-sar, posted by Kristi on September 29, 2001, at 21:37:21
dear Kristi,
i think you're an absolute feeler-sweetheart. how are you?
sometimes i like to be brutally honest so people can react however they will, and it helps me decide whether or not i'm a weirdo or not.
i've been pained in the past few days. i don't know what happened. i went from some sort of neurontin bliss to pure fucking hell. i think it may be physical, i've gotta go to a doctor, the suicidal feelings are always with me nothing new, don't worry about that, babe...
how are the casinos treating you? been smoking? i've been rationalizing my smoking by smoking pipe tobacco! hee hee...
love ya girl,
sar
Posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 23:48:09
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by galtin on September 30, 2001, at 0:43:55
dear galtin,
i think the media loves a good stew for whatever it's worth. "things will never be the same again"--aaahhh, they love that one, it makes for a good pronouncemnt/headline...
on a micro-level though, things will never be the same for the 6500 or so dead or missing in the attacks, not to mention the countless numers of friends/family of these people. nothing will ever be the same for me when my mom dies, whether it be cancer, bullet, or fire.
so our national security has beem threatened. i am such i *naive* american that the morning of September 11, when my brother told me, "a plane just crashed into the WTC 5 minutes ago" i thought huh, a major news story of the day...it'll be over within 3 days...
then i learned of the death toll...
i think the american way of "self-congratulatory talk" fosters self-esteem, which fosters national pride and strength... i don't necessarily agree with these ideals, but i can see how the "we're winners!" declaration could contribute to a real sense of security and a false sense of reality...what is a "winner"?
i do think tens of thousands have been directly affected by this...whether they be survivors or airline workers and whomever else...
i do think that the media, at times, whores certain things out based on what's going on that's considered "newsworthy" or not. i worked for a newspaper for 6 months, and we always went for the gitziesty. out goal always being to beating out the factuality/writing-style/dramatic quotes of the opponent newspaper.
this attck, of course, requires immediate and constant reporting, it's just that...
i want to acknowledge the real hurt out there, the media frenzy just doesn't affect my head...Gulf War is over? oh, were we in a war (grade 7). heidi fleiss, arrested (awright, some glam there). downey in jail again? (boor babe). columbine? (my school had an unoffical "trenchcoat mafia too." they didn't kill people, but they did kilkl animals and make bombs...what, the embittered dorks bomb the school? rent *heathers,* please...
i've no lesson of life. i don't want to entreaty anything. i'm down here miles away from reality. i'm just grateful i'm not a complete alien.sar
Posted by sar on October 1, 2001, at 0:04:26
In reply to Re: Terror... sorry » sar, posted by Wendy B. on September 30, 2001, at 7:40:58
dear wendy,
you are not, by any means, an ass.
i like to try to make evryone what i belilve too, but it only rarely works completely...
your over-ability to empathize is a gift....i have to burn my hands on the stove over and over again to teach mysel a lesson and to learn from others. i can only empathize with what i know. (may i tell an anecdote here? i think i will. 3 of my friends were declared "depressed" by our other friends last year, as was i. these 3 , at the same time they were accusing me of being "bored with my life" and "directionles"--i thought they were completely suicidal and dead inside! can we say PROJECTION?
anyway, i don't know where i was going with that. as far as things being better left unsaid, i don't agree with that--not for myself, anyway. i like to bring up the taboo simply because i happen to feel it, i want to know if others do but they're not speaking; out of respect for any survivors of the WTC tragedy who might be reading this, i'm extremely and deeply sorry, but i know that there are countless others left only half-jaw-dropped to the event, and those are my kind, they're the ones i want to hear from, well i want to hear from anyone really, anyone anyone with thoughts on this topic...
you didn't hurt me. i was a bit taken aback by th rebel-like abrasivesness of yr post, but that's WendyB, n'est-ce pas? you're like that, i wouldn't have expected anything else. that you've been so supportive of me in the past bothers me that we differ so greatly on this one topic, but i'm hoping we can chalk it up to--differences in personality? age? proximity?
yr kb,
sar
Posted by sar on October 1, 2001, at 0:17:38
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by shelliR on September 30, 2001, at 12:07:57
ah ah ah my dear Shelli,
you are *damn* good at keeping things straight and in line. my claims as to the topic of these posts may easily be proven wrong...
i wish i'd been on debate team, damn! then i could have kept my shit in order....my posts are generally a drunken jigsaw of whatever i feel/think...i'm often wrong and contradict myself, but here are 2 things i can say in my defense:
1. politically, i'm very anti-U.S. even though i am a born & bred american. i do feel that we are exploitative, corrupt, and that most of the american population does not know of the horros we inflict upon others.
2. at the same time, i believe, the 6,000+ killed in the attatck certainly were not guilty for my above statement. they were innocents who died in a political attack. they were, to the opponents, pawns.
i cannot separate my emotional and political responses as they are so inherently tied to one another! what am i to think of abortion on an intellectual level? (Cruel, unjust.) What am i to think of it on a socio-economic/individual level? (Needed and justified.)
Shelli, i've been reading your posts for quite awhile and appreciate your attentiveness and ability to dissect arguments and discussions. but to be totally honest with you i post alot drunk, i post alot sober, i'm not good at forming formulaic arguments ABC, all i cab do right now is give you my wine-jigsaw-babblw response and hope that you'll make some sense of it...
i've respected your presence on te boards since i joined 6 months ago.
love,
sar
Posted by Kristi on October 1, 2001, at 0:35:27
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-sar » Kristi, posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 23:14:39
> dear Kristi,
>
> i think you're an absolute feeler-sweetheart. how are you?
Ditto to you kiddo.... how many times you've kept me going! I'm doing ok. Same ol'same ol'
> sometimes i like to be brutally honest so people can react however they will, and it helps me decide whether or not i'm a weirdo or not.It is actually quite interestng to see in what ways people differ, how truly unique we are.
> i've been pained in the past few days. i don't know what happened. i went from some sort of neurontin bliss to pure fucking hell. i think it may be physical, i've gotta go to a doctor, the suicidal feelings are always with me nothing new, don't worry about that, babe...
You did mention something about PMS.... hopefully that's all????? Wishing anyway... hate to think of you feeling like your in hell. Get to the doctor, I'm tellin' ya.. you have to stick around for me.
> how are the casinos treating you? been smoking? i've been rationalizing my smoking by smoking pipe tobacco! hee hee...
Casino's are there... really took a hit, like the rest of the world since the WTC bombing,etc. Everyone is afraid to spend their money, let alone tip a lonely cocktail waitress. :-) I like your rationalization by the way. I've actually been doing really well. Had trouble for a couple of weeks their, then once the doctor gave me the go ahead to use the patch.... it's so much easier. I really don't crave to much. It's weird tho... and probably very difficult for anyone to understand that hasn't had this kind of an addiction. But it's really like you've lost a loved one. It's actually depressing. But I'll continue on my goal.......
> love ya girl,
> sarThanks. You too kiddo.... and please hang in there!!
Posted by Jane D on October 2, 2001, at 1:46:44
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » Marie1, posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 22:53:58
> i do agree that age can be a great determining factor in ability to empathize.
>
> at this point i'm only disgusted with the commercial aspects of this. at work we just received a shipment of WTC calendars. for every purchase, $1 goes to a widows & childrens fund. the intentions sound good but it still leaves a sick feeling in my stomach.
>
> i'm just glad you understand. i'm not very good at putting myself in the other's mocassins, i'm afraid--it's a skill i'm still working on (starting to work on?)Sar - I've been thinking about age here too. I don't know about the connection between age and empathy in general but I think that the younger you are the harder this must be to comprehend. I find it a shock and I have already had years to think about issues such as pacifism, preventative strikes, just and unjust wars, US responsibility in the rest of the world, the nature of fundamentalist islam etc. I expect, that while we may have come to different conclusions, most of the other posters in this thread have had time to think about these things also. This may have shaken us up and caused us to rethink our opinions but most of the building blocks for those opinions were already in place. I can't imagine having to sort that all out in the last few weeks. I don't think it's possible. - Jane
Posted by Wendy B. on October 2, 2001, at 15:40:24
In reply to Re: Terror... sorry » Wendy B., posted by sar on October 1, 2001, at 0:04:26
> dear wendy,
>
> you are not, by any means, an ass.
oh ho ho... you're just sayin' that, sweetheart.kazoo, on the 'Elvis Presley's Depression' thread, has been invited by Jane D. to come over to this thread to get trashed... i wonder if ol' Jane meant MOI?? (now, i know better than to trash kazoo...)
> i like to try to make evryone what i belilve too, but it only rarely works completely...
yeah, 'cuz then those people would be manipulable idiots, and they're neither interesting to be around, nor fun... i like discussion and diffeence of opinion.i have been around a little longer (jane's or susan's or kk's point well taken here). remember watching the vietnam war on tv as a child. the first television war. remember when reagan and the other anti-russian/ anti-commies sent our troops over to afghanistan, and supported the guys who are now the bad guys... see how easy it is for us to switch back and forth, depending on our supposed 'national interests'?
so, sorry. but i have to say, i am a little tired of hearing the 20-somethings telling us 'old folks': "people don't realize why so many people all over the world hate us americans." uhhhh... yes, we do. we remember peace marches. we remember "No Nukes." we remember when the U.S. wouldn't even allow yassir arafat into the country, much less allow him to come to a table to negotiate. we remember lebanon. we remember the gaza strip. we remember glaznost. we remember the fall of the berlin wall. we remember a lot of why the americans are hated and feared. we know we didn't do it, but we never had the political clout to even elect jimmy carter a 2nd time. reagan did a lot of damage. it's a long road back. clinton spent his last days as president trying to put the middle east peace process back on track... and now we get the right telling us he decimated the CIA, and that's why we didn't see the suicide hijackers coming in under the radar.... jesus...
> your over-ability to empathize is a gift....i have to burn my hands on the stove over and over again to teach mysel a lesson and to learn from others. i can only empathize with what i know.i think it's a trap, to over-empathize. it makes everyone else's pain a thing to experience and comment on and get high from. i think some middle ground would be good. that's what i keep trying for: some middle ground, neither too far over the top, nor too far under... i used to be like you... working the excesses and the borders of everything, pushing others to get pissed off with me, just for discussion's sake. making my parents exasperated with me, because that was the only way (i thought) i could get their attention. maybe it was true... arguing just to argue, because without it there would have been... what? nothing, i thought.
> (may i tell an anecdote here? i think i will. 3 of my friends were declared "depressed" by our other friends last year, as was i. these 3 , at the same time they were accusing me of being "bored with my life" and "directionles"--i thought they were completely suicidal and dead inside! can we say PROJECTION?
>
> anyway, i don't know where i was going with that.well, from, i only empathize with what i know - to the feeling that the people calling you depressed and bored with your life, who you saw as depressed and suicidal, were, in fact, *what you knew.* i.e., suicidal and depressed. like maybe, you could see into their pain a little because you were yourself in pain...? i dunno...
> as far as things being better left unsaid, i don't agree with that--not for myself, anyway.i didn't say everything was better left unsaid, just the things that might hurt someone else. truth-telling is just a ruse, when it's said to hurt someone else. you have to know your own motives. or try to. i actually waited a while to answer your first message, but i was too upset to not send anything. and see? we're still ok, we can still talk.
>i like to bring up the taboo simply because i happen to feel it, i want to know if others do but they're not speaking; out of respect for any survivors of the WTC tragedy who might be reading this, i'm extremely and deeply sorry, but i know that there are countless others left only half-jaw-dropped to the event, and those are my kind, they're the ones i want to hear from, well i want to hear from anyone really, anyone anyone with thoughts on this topic...me too, thanks noa for starting the thread...
> you didn't hurt me. i was a bit taken aback by th rebel-like abrasivesness of yr post, but that's WendyB, n'est-ce pas? you're like that, i wouldn't have expected anything else.
my rebel-like abrasiveness? ouch! anything else you want to say on the topic? really... i want to know what i've posted that makes you say that. i always thought if i didn't have something supportive to say, i didn't post anything. thought i was nice to people, maybe i haven't been?...
>that you've been so supportive of me in the past bothers me that we differ so greatly on this one topic, but i'm hoping we can chalk it up to--differences in personality? age? proximity?
probably all three. you have always been very responsive to my anguished posts. and funny and controversial to read, that's why i like you. so we'll be alright?
> yr kb,(btw - what's kb? something obvious, probably.)
>
> sarwen
Posted by Noa on October 2, 2001, at 18:03:08
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by galtin on September 30, 2001, at 0:43:55
It is interesting how much we all have to focus on how it touches us...putting the me into it. I think it is because it is so hard to relate to the magnitude of the tragedy, and we try to connect on a personal level. When we hear the story from a cousin's friend's brother's vantage point, it seems more real than what we learn from the tv.
Posted by Noa on October 2, 2001, at 18:07:08
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » Jane D, posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 23:09:13
> all the go-getter WTC people murdered
If it is hard to relate to the "go-getter" types, keep in mind that a lot of those killed were also the restaurant workers, maintenance staff, secretaries, cleaning crew, etc. etc.
Posted by sar on October 2, 2001, at 22:04:24
In reply to Re: more - Sar, posted by Wendy B. on October 2, 2001, at 15:40:24
> > dear wendy,
> >
> > you are not, by any means, an ass.
>
>
> oh ho ho... you're just sayin' that, sweetheart.nah, babe, just being honest...as usual. :)
> kazoo, on the 'Elvis Presley's Depression' thread, has been invited by Jane D. to come over to this thread to get trashed... i wonder if ol' Jane meant MOI?? (now, i know better than to trash kazoo...)
ooooh! hot-button topic! i doubt Jane meant anyone specific (lots of people begged to differ with me on the WTC topic) But damn, Wendy versus Kazoo...ding ding ding!!!!!
> i have been around a little longer (jane's or susan's or kk's point well taken here). remember watching the vietnam war on tv as a child. the first television war. remember when reagan and the other anti-russian/ anti-commies sent our troops over to afghanistan, and supported the guys who are now the bad guys... see how easy it is for us to switch back and forth, depending on our supposed 'national interests'?
>
> so, sorry. but i have to say, i am a little tired of hearing the 20-somethings telling us 'old folks': "people don't realize why so many people all over the world hate us americans." uhhhh... yes, we do. we remember peace marches. we remember "No Nukes." we remember when the U.S. wouldn't even allow yassir arafat into the country, much less allow him to come to a table to negotiate. we remember lebanon. we remember the gaza strip. we remember glaznost. we remember the fall of the berlin wall. we remember a lot of why the americans are hated and feared. we know we didn't do it, but we never had the political clout to even elect jimmy carter a 2nd time. reagan did a lot of damage. it's a long road back. clinton spent his last days as president trying to put the middle east peace process back on track... and now we get the right telling us he decimated the CIA, and that's why we didn't see the suicide hijackers coming in under the radar.... jesus...
see, that's stuff i *don't* know about. i can understand your frustration at the twentysomethings spewing their spleens all over america when our most difficult patriotic choice has been what, whether to buy the red shirt or the blue one at the Gap??? shite. i don't mean any disrespect to anyone, i'm just trying to understand through discussion. most of the twentysomething folks i know are anti-american in the sense that we hate the terrible *exploitation* of this country. WAL-MART sums up 10% of it in 2 syllables.
> > your over-ability to empathize is a gift....i have to burn my hands on the stove over and over again to teach mysel a lesson and to learn from others. i can only empathize with what i know.
>
> i think it's a trap, to over-empathize. it makes everyone else's pain a thing to experience and comment on and get high from. i think some middle ground would be good. that's what i keep trying for: some middle ground, neither too far over the top, nor too far under... i used to be like you... working the excesses and the borders of everything, pushing others to get pissed off with me, just for discussion's sake. making my parents exasperated with me, because that was the only way (i thought) i could get their attention. maybe it was true... arguing just to argue, because without it there would have been... what? nothing, i thought.i really didn't mean to piss anyone off. i really didn't think anyone would respond to such a blase message, and i was drunk at the time anyway, i was just being brutally honest. i wish i could empathize more; i think the ability to empatize takes lotrs of time/travel/talk/doing/thinking and most of yall have 20 years on me. tonight i gave a foot massage to my friend who slit her wrists last week and was released from the hospital today. i can give her these little things, books and massages and hugs, but i don't understand what's going on in NYC. i can *see* her anhedonia and her pain, and now the bandages.
maybe i'm not good with broad global concepts. :)
> > as far as things being better left unsaid, i don't agree with that--not for myself, anyway.
>
> i didn't say everything was better left unsaid, just the things that might hurt someone else. truth-telling is just a ruse, when it's said to hurt someone else. you have to know your own motives. or try to. i actually waited a while to answer your first message, but i was too upset to not send anything. and see? we're still ok, we can still talk.
one of the things i've discussed with my psychs (i don't have one right now) is that i don't understand how i could possibly affect other people--my mind does *not* comprehend how i might inspire love, hate, agitation, affection, curiosity, what-have-you, in others. mostly i expect people to ignore me and hate me for no reason (thats how i was raised up :) so i don't know when i'm being provocative.
> my rebel-like abrasiveness? ouch! anything else you want to say on the topic? really... i want to know what i've posted that makes you say that. i always thought if i didn't have something supportive to say, i didn't post anything. thought i was nice to people, maybe i haven't been?...
yow!~ see, i didn't think that would hurt you! i just envision you as this rebel-like hipster easily riled up by causes close to her heart...that was more of a compliment than anything...i like it when people are passionate about things they truly believe in, all i meant was that you weren't going to soft-pedal your opinion or placate me or stay out of the thread; my comment was simply out of admiration of your honesty. *your* original post was kinda abrasive but i don't mind that, be how you are, i don't like falsity for the sake of being "supportive" or whatever...everyones gifts are different, we riled each other up and got a good venting out of it...
you've been so supportive of me in the past bothers me that we differ so greatly on this one topic, but i'm hoping we can chalk it up to--differences in personality? age? proximity?
>
>
> probably all three. you have always been very responsive to my anguished posts. and funny and controversial to read, that's why i like you. so we'll be alright?i don't know if i've ever seen an "anguished" post from you! that you brought my "headache" one to the attention of the board months ago really touched me, and i don't think i'll ever forget that. it was like a hand reaching out to one waving up from the water...
i had no idea i was controversial...
of course we're awright!
> (btw - what's kb? something obvious, probably.)
Kind Bud.
(puns, don't you love 'em? smoker or not, i think it's the cutest phrase...)
sar
Posted by Mair on October 2, 2001, at 22:18:46
In reply to Re: more - Sar » Wendy B., posted by sar on October 2, 2001, at 22:04:24
>" i really didn't mean to piss anyone off. i really didn't think anyone would respond to such a blase message, and i was drunk at the time anyway, i was just being brutally honest."
>
> REally, Sar, surely you don't want us to ignore your posts on the off chance that you wrote them when you were drunk. I think people here have to take what's written at face value.Mair
Posted by sar on October 3, 2001, at 20:57:35
In reply to Re: more - Sar, posted by Mair on October 2, 2001, at 22:18:46
> > REally, Sar, surely you don't want us to ignore your posts on the off chance that you wrote them when you were drunk. I think people here have to take what's written at face value.
>
> Mairi agree. i get all muddled. i make alot of mistakes, i'm learning from the wiser elders, i never want anyone to ignore my posts no no no, i was just surprised at the number of vitriolic responses, and now i know why upset people, and that helps me understand a facet of life more fully.
Posted by jay on October 6, 2001, at 0:18:32
In reply to Re: more - Sar » Mair, posted by sar on October 3, 2001, at 20:57:35
I was just thinking, that when the events of Sept. 11 happened, of course many of us felt empathy and fear, sadness and caring for others.BUT, what about when there is an earthquake in India; Bombs in Northen Ireland; Flood disasters in the Philipines; Masacre in Africa...etc.
Maybe us in the Western World will learn to expand our empathy for all of our fellow humans, no matter where in the world. We've got to learn SOMETHING out of this horrible tragedy.
I think maybe this can help in our personal emotional healing too, to feel and relate to our fellow humans from all over the world.
Peace..
Jay
Posted by akc on October 6, 2001, at 7:42:10
In reply to Sept. 11 : Empathy for the World, posted by jay on October 6, 2001, at 0:18:32
I am not trying to minimize what you are saying. I agree. We should be more aware, more caring, take more action to the horrible things that happen outside of our nation.
Yet, what is happening now with the terrorist attacks in our own nation should not surprise. I know my own strong reaction comes from at least two things. First is the visuals -- while not in New York or D.C., I felt I was present. Unlike some of the disasters you listed around the world where we might see an image or two on the nightly news, we have been inudated with the attacks and the aftermath. More so than even some other disasters that have taken place here at home -- like the earthquake in San Fransisco or Hurricane Andrew in Florida.
The second, and for me probably the greater thing that is driving my reaction, is what has caused this disaster -- the fact that it is a terrorist attack, and one on such a large scale. Personally, I am affected by such attacks when I hear of them, be it in Israel or Africa or wherever. But to be so close to home -- and then all the details that have come out since then -- it continues to fuel the reaction.
I haven't been keeping up very well on posts lately, so I might be redundant here. Dr. Phil on Oprah said that the price of this attack is too high to pay for any lesson we might learn. Much too high. But what would be worse is if we did not learn anything from it. I hope that one thing we can learn is compassion -- starting for those here at home (and I am worried when I hear of the discrimination against those of Middle Eastern descent), and for those around the world (and I am more worried when I see polls that still, even 3 1/3 weeks later are ready to bomb a nation to bits, even though it is ruled by a oppressive few).
It would be great that we could learn from the horror of what happened here to have more empathy. To see in our loss, the pain in other's loss. I am usually an optimist. Unfortunately, this has had the effect of making me more into a pessismist. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
akc
Posted by jay on October 10, 2001, at 21:10:27
In reply to Re: Sept. 11 : Empathy for the World, posted by akc on October 6, 2001, at 7:42:10
Maybe it's simple and may sound silly...but only love of ourselves and others will save us. Nothing else really matters....that seems to be the focal point of why we are taking meds..or in therapy...or in the hospital..or what ever. As Andrew Sololomen say's in "The Noonday Demon"..."Depression is a flaw in love.."
Jay
> I am not trying to minimize what you are saying. I agree. We should be more aware, more caring, take more action to the horrible things that happen outside of our nation.
>
> Yet, what is happening now with the terrorist attacks in our own nation should not surprise. I know my own strong reaction comes from at least two things. First is the visuals -- while not in New York or D.C., I felt I was present. Unlike some of the disasters you listed around the world where we might see an image or two on the nightly news, we have been inudated with the attacks and the aftermath. More so than even some other disasters that have taken place here at home -- like the earthquake in San Fransisco or Hurricane Andrew in Florida.
>
> The second, and for me probably the greater thing that is driving my reaction, is what has caused this disaster -- the fact that it is a terrorist attack, and one on such a large scale. Personally, I am affected by such attacks when I hear of them, be it in Israel or Africa or wherever. But to be so close to home -- and then all the details that have come out since then -- it continues to fuel the reaction.
>
> I haven't been keeping up very well on posts lately, so I might be redundant here. Dr. Phil on Oprah said that the price of this attack is too high to pay for any lesson we might learn. Much too high. But what would be worse is if we did not learn anything from it. I hope that one thing we can learn is compassion -- starting for those here at home (and I am worried when I hear of the discrimination against those of Middle Eastern descent), and for those around the world (and I am more worried when I see polls that still, even 3 1/3 weeks later are ready to bomb a nation to bits, even though it is ruled by a oppressive few).
>
> It would be great that we could learn from the horror of what happened here to have more empathy. To see in our loss, the pain in other's loss. I am usually an optimist. Unfortunately, this has had the effect of making me more into a pessismist. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
>
> akc
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