![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by geekUK on July 5, 2001, at 20:22:29
In reply to is suicide ever rational?, posted by geekUK on July 3, 2001, at 14:17:52
I feel this is really complecated. I do beleive that if anyone does not want to live then they shouldnt have to, as long as they are making a rational decision. however, many of us are not of 'sound mind and body'as it were. But on the otherhand there's no doubting that depression is debilitating and life distroying. and V.painful sometimes. So would anyone want to live like this if they were 'sane/same'? I dont think so. as you can see I havent formed an opinion, and uncertainty never sits well in my head.
MC
Posted by kazoo on July 6, 2001, at 1:42:13
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?, posted by geekUK on July 5, 2001, at 20:22:29
> I do beleive that if anyone does not want to live then they shouldnt have to, as long as they are making a rational decision.
^^^^^^^^^^^
But the parents of the suicide victim made the decision, rational or otherwise, for this "victim" to exist, so how do you think they would feel knowing that the individual they created and nurtured for so many years performs the ultimate insult by committing the ultimate act of genuine stupidity. Not just one person dies with an individual suicide. Show some respect.Besides, you don't know what's on the other side of the metaphysical fence, if you happen to believe in fences.
Euthanasia? No, teens in China. Don't even go there with this subject with regard to "rational" suicide.
Greetings to Dr. Bob.
(a rational) kazoo
Posted by Willow on July 6, 2001, at 22:08:31
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?, posted by sar on July 3, 2001, at 19:27:30
but happy (really thinking I'd die a peaceful death).
>People think I'm morbid at times because I read the obituaries. (Good place to check out job openings.) Anyway the thing about them that really bugs me is when they say the person died peacefully, from cancer, heart attack, whatever. Most the times the body is struggling to go on or the person is fighting their body to trying to keep going. And the death process started long before the moment the person died. My rant for the day.
Here's my question for the day: How many of yous when you've been suicidal, acted on it, have been in a real anxious state prior to the attempt and then when you get into gear the anxiety is gone? Like Sar said, "but happy (really thinking I'd die a peaceful death)."
Just wondering if this is normal.
Whistling Willow
ps Sar in real life I can't whistle, isn't it great all the things we can do in the cyberworld?
Posted by Willow on July 6, 2001, at 22:19:53
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?__________________no. » geekUK, posted by kazoo on July 6, 2001, at 1:42:13
> But the parents of the suicide victim made the decision, rational or otherwise, for this "victim" to exist, so how do you think they would feel knowing that the individual they created and nurtured for so many years performs the ultimate insult by committing the ultimate act
KazooAs understanding as my parents are, and being my parents (sharing the same genes - beliefs - whatever,) they wouldn't take it personally. Sure they would feel a loss, but hey life goes on.
Having the option gives some peace. I can wake up in the morning or when I go to bed measure the past and future, and if the scales tip too far knowing that I have a way out gives me strength.
Though if the shoe was on the other foot I would fight diligently for my child.
Perhaps this is a thread I shouldn't have visited?
Weeping Willow
Posted by sar on July 7, 2001, at 0:50:01
In reply to Re: is suicide ever peaceful?, posted by Willow on July 6, 2001, at 22:08:31
i believe it can be. i hadn't *planned* on doing it *that day,* but i'd been obsessively pondering/planning it for nearly a year. it was a sunday and the gunshops were closed, thought gas would be better anyway. i don't think the body always fights; i can imagine mine succumbing peacefully, given the right atmposphere--the right music, the right drug, the right method.
Mind over body?
i feel like i shouldn't be posting this, because it's quite morbid and i expect most people feel differently...I just want to speak what I believe to be the Truth. Dying at my own hand would #1) be fair, as I'm completely an individual, with no kids or husband etc; #2)rational because the choice and method would be mine--not struck with cancer or AIDS or by a citybus, but the way I want it to be done, and the way I feel most comfortable doing it. #3)human, because people have been committing suicide for about as long as humankind has existed #4) a personal choice--I'm sure my parents and few close friends would feel extreme pain, but not nearly equal to the amount of pain I cause myself internally. They'd go on even if I clearly could not.
These are my beliefs. As I've posted, I'm on meds now that seem to help me, my life is improving, and I don't think I'll kill myself anytime soon. Hopefully this whole mess will disappear and I never will--it's just a *purely* political and emotional topic for me.
Living it out is tough, it's stronger. I respect it more.
I just respect individual choice quite a lot too. Quite Strongly.
respectfully,
sar
Posted by annalaura on July 7, 2001, at 2:57:40
In reply to Re: is suicide ever peaceful?, posted by Willow on July 6, 2001, at 22:08:31
> but happy (really thinking I'd die a peaceful death).
> >
>
> People think I'm morbid at times because I read the obituaries. (Good place to check out job openings.) Anyway the thing about them that really bugs me is when they say the person died peacefully, from cancer, heart attack, whatever. Most the times the body is struggling to go on or the person is fighting their body to trying to keep going. And the death process started long before the moment the person died. My rant for the day.
>
> Here's my question for the day: How many of yous when you've been suicidal, acted on it, have been in a real anxious state prior to the attempt and then when you get into gear the anxiety is gone? Like Sar said, "but happy (really thinking I'd die a peaceful death)."
>
> Just wondering if this is normal.
>
> Whistling Willow
>
> ps Sar in real life I can't whistle, isn't it great all the things we can do in the cyberworld?
Hi Willow,
You talked about acting out suicide attempt and feeling peaceful right after that, right?
Hope i got this and didn't misunderstand what you meant. You know, it's much easier for me to understand difficult terminology rather than slang:since english it's not my language i don't understand slang phrases.
i didn't fully understand what you meant by "getting in to gear": hope i got that right.
I think something similar happened to me when i was very very sick years ago.
I was driving totally insane: it was the worst night of my life; was shacking like a leaf, my heart beat was racing up to 180 per minutes, friends wouldn't understand (they actually believed i took LSD or something like that).
I thought i was going to die, that the whole world was crushig down, that Apocalypse was coming etc...I was listening to the radio, everything seemes so unreal, five 'o clock in the mornings, birds singing, a bluish neon like light was filtering in through the venetian blinds.
The radio playing the news: i remember clearly they were talking about a man who was shot and died. That man had my same last name: i thought it was a sign that i had to prepare myself to die. I can't describe what happened to me but i felt like i could die .
I was absolutely sure that there wouldn't be any hell after death, that i was living in hell already, and that there would be just peace after that.
I started thinking that everything was fake, just an illusion.
My hearth beat decreased and i started smiling. Strange thing to say, i lied down on bed and put my arms crossed on my belly just like the dead. I felt i didn't care about dying anymore, wasn't scared anymore: all of a sudden there was a way out from this never ending fire burning inside my head. It was like being very very hot in the middle of the desert and a blue, huge, cool, tantalizing swimming pool showing up all of a sudden. That swimming pool was death and i was about to plunge in. Why did i resolve not to do that ?
Since everything was fake and life was just an illusion, i wasn't scared of life anymore. It was like a stage where everybody was playing a role. I felt like i didn't want to leave that stage at that point, since i could play any role i wanted to do. I could anything, since i could hold death in my hand. Death was so scary just an hour ago: at that very moment it was like a tiny little fly i captured with my hands.
My hands and feet grew warm, wasn't sweating anymore, i moved slowly to the kitchen and i made a coffee. No anxiety whatsoever. No more horror.
After that episode i read an article about a man waiting in the death row ; it was an interview. That man (i can't recall his name) decribed his emotional reactions and they were very similar to mine. He said something like: " i was scared as hell, it was such a torment thinking about i had to die, etc....then all of a sudden i grew quiet and felt peaceful. Right now i 'm not scared any longer".
Last week my grandmother died after ten years of Alzheimer desease: she had been very very anxiuos all the time; she was peaceful when she died though. My mother told me she was astonished by watching her face grow younger and younger. She looked like she was in her forties when she died. She had with a smile on her face....Sorry for being so lenghty. Hope i answered your question.
Posted by geekUK on July 7, 2001, at 4:24:16
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?__________________no. » geekUK, posted by kazoo on July 6, 2001, at 1:42:13
point taken on the familys and stuff. Its my most effective strategy for staying alive- to think of my sister. kinda like thinking of your mum whilst having sex -kinda screws the entire thought process up.
But I feel it would be rational if the pain caused+prevented by death was less+more than staying alive (if you follow the poor gramma). A simple weighing scale theory. how pain is measurable is another story altogether mind.
Posted by NikkiT2 on July 7, 2001, at 7:03:58
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?__________________no. » geekUK, posted by kazoo on July 6, 2001, at 1:42:13
Kazoo..
But my [arents didn't make a rational or any decsion to have me... they got drunk (in their late 30's!) had sex... 5 months later mum went to doctors thinking she had stomach cancer as her periods had stopped and her stomcach was hard... too late for an abortion... so if they considered killing me before I was even born, why the hell should I bother with the respect to stay alive simply to save my mother some pain?? I'm the on in pain here, its MY life now, I'm an adult, my mother doesn't give me any financial help in my life, I make all my own decisions these days, so why shouldn't I make this one decision for myself???
> > I do beleive that if anyone does not want to live then they shouldnt have to, as long as they are making a rational decision.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> But the parents of the suicide victim made the decision, rational or otherwise, for this "victim" to exist, so how do you think they would feel knowing that the individual they created and nurtured for so many years performs the ultimate insult by committing the ultimate act of genuine stupidity. Not just one person dies with an individual suicide. Show some respect.
>
> Besides, you don't know what's on the other side of the metaphysical fence, if you happen to believe in fences.
>
> Euthanasia? No, teens in China. Don't even go there with this subject with regard to "rational" suicide.
>
> Greetings to Dr. Bob.
>
> (a rational) kazoo
Posted by dreamer on July 7, 2001, at 16:52:55
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?__________________no. » kazoo, posted by NikkiT2 on July 7, 2001, at 7:03:58
I just know that it will be me that decides when to die not to be eaten away by some of lifes nasty deseases .
Probably when I'm happy which seems odd but it would be like a kick in the face of life a life I've never felt I'd belonged to.
Recently I had a strange kinda near death event/vivid dream with the usual tunnel senario I had a choice and got frightened that it could be just as hellish as this place. Put me off suicide felt better and grounded afterwards.
Have attempted suicide with various pills always woke up feeling better my liver would dissagree though.
Posted by geekUK on July 7, 2001, at 20:04:12
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational, posted by dreamer on July 7, 2001, at 16:52:55
nikki,
good point! why should I give a damn about my lifes creators, considering **** got what **** wanted out of my birth. my sisters a bit of a bootstrap oh well.hehe.dreamer,
We all die in the end, and probably slower than an informed DIY job! I am a bit freaked out about an FBC test I am awaiting. When god was handing out organs why 2 lung 2 kidneys 1 liver! surely he must of known this was a desighn fault. welcome to gods comedy channel! (palunak {?} reference)
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 7, 2001, at 22:35:47
In reply to Re: is suicide ever peaceful?, posted by Willow on July 6, 2001, at 22:08:31
> but happy (really thinking I'd die a peaceful death).
> >
>
> People think I'm morbid at times because I read the obituaries. (Good place to check out job openings.) Anyway the thing about them that really bugs me is when they say the person died peacefully, from cancer, heart attack, whatever. Most the times the body is struggling to go on or the person is fighting their body to trying to keep going. And the death process started long before the moment the person died. My rant for the day.
>
> Here's my question for the day: How many of yous when you've been suicidal, acted on it, have been in a real anxious state prior to the attempt and then when you get into gear the anxiety is gone? Like Sar said, "but happy (really thinking I'd die a peaceful death)."
>
> Just wondering if this is normal.
>
> Whistling Willow
>
> ps Sar in real life I can't whistle, isn't it great all the things we can do in the cyberworld?I suppose it is kinda nice knowing that we
can check out of this world anytime that we
would like; but then I think to myself, "Am
I in this world only for myself." Can
the process of suicide be peaceful? Yes,
I believe it could be if one knows that
ones pain will not end (eg. terminal cancer,
AIDS, and perhaps unrelenting clinical
depression).
Posted by kazoo on July 8, 2001, at 3:16:03
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?__________________no., posted by Willow on July 6, 2001, at 22:19:53
Willow, my dearest:
> As understanding as my parents are ... they wouldn't take it personally.
^^^^^^^^^^
Do you know that as a FACT? Have you ever asked them about this? And suicide is not the kind of thing one takes, or not takes, "personally," like some offensive joke. Without your parents, you wouldn't be here now to say that you don't want to be. Two words: twisted irony.
> Sure they would feel a loss, but hey life goes on.
^^^^^^^^
"... feel the loss" doesn't quite cut it: they would be devasted and guilt ridden for the rest of their lives. And not just them, but your entire family as well. Suicide creates and exacerbates pain for those who remain, but, Hey, for them, life *stops* as well never to be recovered or reclaimed.> Having the option gives some peace. I can wake up in the morning or when I go to bed measure the past and future, and if the scales tip too far knowing that I have a way out gives me strength.
^^^^^^^^
Willow my dear, options are for cars and vacation packages, and not a factor to determine life or death.
> Though if the shoe was on the other foot I would fight diligently for my child.
^^^^^^^
Then try for one moment being in your folk's shoes ...
Think, my dear, think! You are a bright, young, sensitive cupcake who has a lot to give in every sense of the expression. Direct all that bad energy to more positive outlets rather than imagining "scales" of life and death.May I spank you?
kazoo
Posted by Marie1 on July 8, 2001, at 8:13:03
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?________________nyet! » Willow, posted by kazoo on July 8, 2001, at 3:16:03
Kazoo,
I don't think it's true that one doesn't recover from the suicide death of a loved one. Of course there is horrible pain and questions - the what ifs? and whys? but eventually it's possible to get to a place where you realize: this was his decision. This is what he wanted. Who am I to demand he stay here with the kind of unremitting, constant, psychic pain he felt. I'm pretty sure my remaining siblings feel the same way.
My parents were both gone when my brother killed himself, and I am glad they weren't around to experience that. I don't think they would have ever recovered, just as parents who lose a child for any reason never quite recover from such a devastation. If there is such a thing as an afterlife, I like to think my parents were there to welcome him.
Marie> Willow, my dearest:
>
> > As understanding as my parents are ... they wouldn't take it personally.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> Do you know that as a FACT? Have you ever asked them about this? And suicide is not the kind of thing one takes, or not takes, "personally," like some offensive joke. Without your parents, you wouldn't be here now to say that you don't want to be. Two words: twisted irony.
>
>
> > Sure they would feel a loss, but hey life goes on.
> ^^^^^^^^
> "... feel the loss" doesn't quite cut it: they would be devasted and guilt ridden for the rest of their lives. And not just them, but your entire family as well. Suicide creates and exacerbates pain for those who remain, but, Hey, for them, life *stops* as well never to be recovered or reclaimed.
>
> > Having the option gives some peace. I can wake up in the morning or when I go to bed measure the past and future, and if the scales tip too far knowing that I have a way out gives me strength.
> ^^^^^^^^
> Willow my dear, options are for cars and vacation packages, and not a factor to determine life or death.
>
>
> > Though if the shoe was on the other foot I would fight diligently for my child.
> ^^^^^^^
> Then try for one moment being in your folk's shoes ...
>
>
> Think, my dear, think! You are a bright, young, sensitive cupcake who has a lot to give in every sense of the expression. Direct all that bad energy to more positive outlets rather than imagining "scales" of life and death.
>
> May I spank you?
>
> kazoo
Posted by shelliR on July 8, 2001, at 14:42:51
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?________________nyet! » kazoo, posted by Marie1 on July 8, 2001, at 8:13:03
I'm having a really bad day today ; had added concerta to my mix on Friday and today am feeling very very down. And so finally I read through this thread.
I totally agree with Marie. I don't believe that parents ever ever get over the death of a child, and suicide is the worst because they perhaps feel if only they had been there, done something etc.
So far there have been two things that have kept me from killing myself. One is my parents. They were not great parents when I was growing up, but as an adult, they have supported me in every way they know how. To know that I would be causing them such enormous pain makes opting out of life very very difficult.
The second also has already been mentioned. What lies in store after life? I don't have any clue, but there are people that "know" they've been here before. If you believe in East Indian philosophy, you must live many lives until you learn the lessions you need to. Suicide would bring you a step back, and you'd have to relive what you would not accept.
I don't know if reincarnation is a reality, but I don't want to take a chance that I would have to learn this lesson again.
Years ago I was alone in New Mexico (Santa Fe, Taos area). I had gone from a workshop and spent days and evenings with people for seven days (too much stimulation for me). Now I had decided to stay out there longer, alone. Too large a transition. I got totally freaked and depressed. I started asking any Indian I talked to there (mostly Navaho) whether they believe in reincarnation. They do, but because they respect all living things (seeing anything as equal), your next incarnation is not seen as punishment, reward, or the search for nirvana. Basically your task in life is to be the best you can. So if you are a blade of grass you only must be the best blade of grass you can be.
Often if I feel like a failure, I say to myself, "You are being the best blade of grass, you can." I use the term blade of grass instead of person, because it really makes the acceptance thing totally hit home for me. So that has helped me alot with successes and failures. But the deep deep depression I have felt in the last two years, is so almost physically painful--in my chest. Perhaps " being the best blade of grass, I can" means living a bit more gracefully with pain, as I search for new ways to make the pain go away.
Not really an answer to "is suicide ever rational", but as close as I can get.
Shelli
p.s. if I was a Navaho, they would have a sweating ceremony for me, which might work better than any of these ADs
Posted by stjames on July 8, 2001, at 15:46:48
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?________________nyet! » kazoo, posted by Marie1 on July 8, 2001, at 8:13:03
> Kazoo,
> I don't think it's true that one doesn't recover from the suicide death of a loved one. Of course there is horrible pain and questions - the what ifs? and whys? but eventually it's possible to get to a place where you realize: this was his decision. This is what he wanted. Who am I to demand he stay here with the kind of unremitting, constant, psychic pain he felt. I'm pretty sure my remaining siblings feel the same way.James here.....
Get over it....Ha ! I have had 2 people kill themselves and to this day no one has a clue.
I will never get over having to clean up the office after K put a gun in his mouth. Picking brain and skull off the walls makes a lasting impression. Suicide does not give closure, survivers never get over it.james
Posted by Willow on July 8, 2001, at 21:53:32
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?, posted by shelliR on July 8, 2001, at 14:42:51
> p.s. if I was a Navaho, they would have a sweating ceremony for me, which might work better than any of these ADs
I'm serious! It's relaxing. Not one like at the Ys but a real steam sauna. I don't know the word for it in english but you can use some birch twigs fresh ones to whisk yourself and just lie there enjoying the steam, not thinking, just relaxing. Once a week!
I hated them as a child, which I think is common for kids, but now as a parent I think I need the space and peace. I actually have dreams of my childhood sauna and that someone else owns it now. They say to my mom that she can't keep coming back and I cry that it's me that asked her to I lie down on my bench (the lowest one) and start sobbing. Ouch!
I must have enjoyed them more then I remember. : )
Twisted Willow
Posted by Willow on July 8, 2001, at 23:23:28
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?________________nyet! » Willow, posted by kazoo on July 8, 2001, at 3:16:03
*Do you know that as a FACT? Have you ever asked them about this.
Keep in mind my father has schizophrenia, so for him to go around mumbling I want to die, has been understood by many to be a normal part of his illness or something. Yeah, I've talked to him. And somewhere along the line he's stopped talking about wanting to die. : ) (Makes me wonder about psychiatrists and how out of tune they are to people's emotions or thoughts. I guess they ask and we faithfully answer no out of fear that someone would do something that could be worse. The mystical unkown.) My mother's thinking is different. But she's raised two children out of three who have suffered severe depressive episodes. And she has come from a country where suicide is still fairly common. The two last deaths of family members were suicides, though they were "written up as accidents." Yes, we've talked about it in detail.When I say personally, I mean that they've done something wrong. In many ways I have been blessed. (Learning has been easy, empathy is basic, and good health (besides the cfs), friends, the list is endless.)
>
>
> > Sure they would feel a loss, but hey life goes on.
> ^^^^^^^^
*Suicide creates and exacerbates pain for those who remain, but, Hey, for them, life *stops* as well never to be recovered or reclaimed.I don't agree with you here. Life in my eyes is like a river with lots of tributaries. If one of them dries up the river still survives. We're each our own river and everyone else is a tributary. To noone I know am I their only source, to some maybe a major one but with time that is replaced.
>
vacation packages, and not a factor to determine life or death. WHY NOT?
>
>
> Then try for one moment being in your folk's shoes ... At what point do you have to preserve yourself though? Along that line, my only dark cloud are those brief moments that gliding without wings looks tempting. I've had them for so long now, and except for the first time (the joy of youth) have no intention of acting on them.
>
Two words: twisted irony = children
>
Split Willowps finally find someone into spanking and he has to be the biggest flirt on this cyberplanet
... and a million other replies
Posted by Cecilia on July 9, 2001, at 2:26:08
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?__________________no. » geekUK, posted by kazoo on July 6, 2001, at 1:42:13
> But the parents of the suicide victim made the decision, rational or otherwise, for this "victim" to exist, so how do you think they would feel knowing that the individual they created and nurtured for so many years performs the ultimate insult by committing the ultimate act of genuine stupidity. Not just one person dies with an individual suicide. Show some respect.I`ve always been too terrified of "the other side of the fence" to kill myself, but I`ve never understood the argument that one should refrain from suicide to spare the feelings of one`s parents or other adult relatives or friends. For the sake of one`s children, yes, because it was your choice to bring them into the world. But your parents brought you into the world either by accident or because they believed, rightly or wrongly, that having a child would make THEIR lives better. Why should parents think they have the right to expect their adult children to stay alive in unending pain just because they brought them into the world?
Posted by annalaura on July 9, 2001, at 5:38:19
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?________________nyet!, posted by stjames on July 8, 2001, at 15:46:48
> > Kazoo,
> > I don't think it's true that one doesn't recover from the suicide death of a loved one. Of course there is horrible pain and questions - the what ifs? and whys? but eventually it's possible to get to a place where you realize: this was his decision. This is what he wanted. Who am I to demand he stay here with the kind of unremitting, constant, psychic pain he felt. I'm pretty sure my remaining siblings feel the same way.
>
> James here.....
>
> Get over it....Ha ! I have had 2 people kill themselves and to this day no one has a clue.
> I will never get over having to clean up the office after K put a gun in his mouth. Picking brain and skull off the walls makes a lasting impression. Suicide does not give closure, survivers never get over it.
>
> jamesJames,
I don't agree with you on this point: a friend of mine threw herself under a train three years ago. They took her to the hospital and cut her legs off. She stayed alive just for one week, she eventually died of septicaemia (infection).
I was shocked, i was badly hurt, that's true; the previous week i hung out with her, she looked fine: she was a talented, intelligent and extremely beautiful young woman (she was 29). She was an artist and excelled in her field (contemporary art). I recall a few days before her death mumbling something about being a failure, having low self-esteem and stuff like that, but i couldn't imagine what she was planning to do. Just the day before she died she left a message in my answering machine. She said she felt bad. I was supposed to call her the following day, but that day i felt sick also : i was about to plunge in the black hole of depression for the second time. So i called a friend of mine and i spent the day with him .
When i got to know Alessandra had died i felt terrible: i thought i could never forget that, felt guilty too, but eventually the anguish subsided: it took two more years, but now i feel fine, i recall the nice aspects of her personality: she was a special person, too bad she died, 'cause the world badly needs peolpe like her.
Another friend of mine committed suicide: he was really sick, mentally ill since he was 16 years old (when he died he was 27). I wasn't astonished this time, 'cause he was very very sick, taking haldol at high dosages and still feeling terrible.He had been in to asylums many times. He just couldn't stand this situation anymore: i understood him, knew why he did that. I told myself: "I hope you're at peace now, Lorenzo, life it has been so unfair to you".
I think one can justify someone else suicide mainly because he/she had been trough that also. I kow i have, so that it's way easier for me to forgive people who committ suicide.
Posted by Roo on July 9, 2001, at 8:12:21
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?, posted by shelliR on July 8, 2001, at 14:42:51
> Often if I feel like a failure, I say to myself, "You are being the best blade of grass, you can." I use the term blade
of grass instead of person, because it really makes the acceptance thing totally hit home for me. So that has helped
me alot with successes and failures. But the deep deep depression I have felt in the last two years, is so almost
physically painful--in my chest. Perhaps " being the best blade of grass, I can" means living a bit more gracefully
with pain, as I search for new ways to make the pain go away.
ShelliJust wanted to thank you for sharing this. It helped
me a lot. The last 2 years have been really hard for
me as well, more so than usual, with a pain I almost
feel physically in my chest, a lump in my throat, etc.
Being graceful has been hard. But it's always good to
have a mantra. They seem to help me. So thanks.I hope we both find some relief soon.
Posted by shelliR on July 9, 2001, at 8:34:37
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?Shelli, posted by Roo on July 9, 2001, at 8:12:21
Roo,
>So thanks.
You're welcome. It's always nice to feel that something you
say or do can touch someone else.> I hope we both find some relief soon.
DittoShelli
Posted by zipnull on July 16, 2001, at 20:57:34
In reply to is suicide ever rational?, posted by geekUK on July 3, 2001, at 14:17:52
> hands up all who have read the suicide...read this first web page. It talks of pain exceeding coping strategies. so my question is
> if pain is greater than the level you can cope with, and is likely to be so for the forseeable future is suicide a rational choise? or is suicide never rational in this situation?
> I was thinking this might be an interesting (if morbid)thread of dicussion.I'll quickly grant that for some people, the pain/coping ratio becomes too large. They need release and that's it. However, such decisions have nothing to do with what we call 'reason'. I've looked long and hard at this - I think that's what we call 'rationalization'. When I'm in my right mind (such as it is) I can't rationalize my suicide.
First, there are some people (besides my ex, who would readily supply the gun) who would miss me. I'm particularly worried about my children. A couple of them have too many of my genes - with the same depressive tendency. I always wanted them to have a better life than me. My suicide may make it easier for them to do the same (I checked - it happens).
Second, suicide is selfish. It's focused on me and my pain. I have always hated selfish people and my own selfishness. Life often stinks, I've got to make it better for others if I can. That actually makes me feel better! And, I've seen too many people with shocking physical and mental disabilities, who make the world around them glow with vitality. It's very humbling.
Third, the BIG questions. Why am I here, and what's over the wall? I'm a scientist; I try to look at the cosmos in a rational way. My rational mind says - no way is this incredible complexity a long odds crapshoot. It is far more rational to say that it's deterministic and created. There must be a god out there. AND, I seem to have this god-shaped space in my conscience. We spent much of the twentieth century trying to erase that god-shaped space from our worldwide conscience. It didn't work. That god awareness is still there. That same conscience (when I still listen to it) tells me that self-destruction is not god's will for my life. Which takes me back to points one and two…
Just my 2-ce3nts, sorry it was so long long.
Posted by Willow on July 16, 2001, at 23:22:29
In reply to Re: is suicide ever rational?, posted by zipnull on July 16, 2001, at 20:57:34
I agree. It is sort of like a child having a severe temper tantrum and getting the last word in, yet a lot more complex.
I did a search and came up with this website http://www.who.int/mental_health/index.html
It has a map and gives suicide rates per capita around the world. Finland is up there. ( heeheehe - north, up, ) When you look at the territories in Canada, they're up there too percentage wise and latitude. So I don't know if it's just the people who migrate to these northern altitudes, long winter nights, or if it is something physical. An extended way of saying it is not all about being selfish.
But we should all advocate for help. See Racer's post about "Vincent - Not Keratonus."
Firewood
Posted by Cass on July 17, 2001, at 0:38:01
In reply to Suicide is selfish ..., posted by Willow on July 16, 2001, at 23:22:29
I have never thought of suicide as being selfish. I see it as an act of sheer desperation to escape emotional or physical pain. I cannot bring myself to be judgemental about it, especially having been through it. I suppose the only time I really see suicide as being selfish is when a person is raising children, but even then it is pitiful and tragic.
Posted by Willow on July 17, 2001, at 12:48:45
In reply to Re: Suicide is desperate ..., posted by Cass on July 17, 2001, at 0:38:01
> I have never thought of suicide as being selfish. I see it as an act of sheer desperation to escape emotional or physical pain. I cannot bring myself to be judgemental about it, especially having been through it. I suppose the only time I really see suicide as being selfish is when a person is raising children, but even then it is pitiful and tragic.
An act of desperation! You said it much better.
Thanks
Willow
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