![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Doo on May 7, 2001, at 0:49:25
Hi there,
It's been a horrible week. I feel on the edges of psychosis. I can't express how hard it is for me to tolerate the ideas that come in my head. Ideas about life and death, that almost always tell me that the latter is the best way to go. Don't worry I'm not gonna do this. I just have to tell that it's so f***ing hard to have such self-destructive impulses, that seem to be there since I was a kid.
Well thank's for reading, i'm tired now it's 1:45 am. I'll get to sleep...
Doo.
Posted by mila on May 7, 2001, at 20:33:54
In reply to existential pain coming back, posted by Doo on May 7, 2001, at 0:49:25
Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee
And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me"
R.Frost. In the Clearing (1962)thanks for sharing your experiences, Doo, I certainly understand and appreciate what you are going through.
death anxiety is inversely proportional to life satisfaction. Generally speaking. But it also comes as a heavy addition to mental illness. I hope, and I see that you are able to distinguish between the two, and I am proud of you, you are a fighter. You know what you really want, do you?there is nothing special about human life and that is His big one on us. Yet it is special. Not to prove Him wrong, but seeing a joke for what it is - a joke, and smile, clench out teeth, and keep swimming till we reach the safe shore of certainty and self-determination.
love
mila
Posted by Doo on May 7, 2001, at 23:22:16
In reply to Re: Forgive, O Lord, posted by mila on May 7, 2001, at 20:33:54
> Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee
> And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me"
> R.Frost. In the Clearing (1962)
>
> thanks for sharing your experiences, Doo, I certainly understand and appreciate what you are going through.It's good just to read that. I had the wish someone had replied to my message. I appreciate :)
> death anxiety is inversely proportional to life satisfaction. Generally speaking. But it also comes as a heavy addition to mental illness. I hope, and I see that you are able to distinguish between the two, and I am proud of you, you are a fighter. You know what you really want, do you?
It really is a heavy addition, as you put it. I don't see it as a 'pathological process'. But what is more 'pathological' is the way the death wish intrudes my consiousness. I've always had questions in my head, and always felt so unlike the others. Most poeple have a great capacity, which I envy, to push away from their minds all existential questions. I mean I don't want to negate that part of me that has to find a reason to live, that needs also a certain spirituality and humbleness in front of all that I don't understand. I simply would like the tough part to come in small doses, not all at once like it happened to me 5 years ago (because of a bad mushroom trip) and like it happened to me last week. Although it was never as hard as the first time, it was hard, and it still is. I feel alone in my loneliness, and I would like to share it with others who know what I mean.
As for knowing what I want... hmmm I'm currently beginning a therapy, where I'll do all I can to find my way.
> there is nothing special about human life and that is His big one on us. Yet it is special. Not to prove Him wrong, but seeing a joke for what it is - a joke, and smile, clench out teeth, and keep swimming till we reach the safe shore of certainty and self-determination.
>
> love
> milaSelf-determination is a very inspiring word. I guess it is the best weapon against the death wish. Maybe it's the only one?
Thank's a lot for your reply, mila.
Doo
Posted by mila on May 8, 2001, at 0:15:12
In reply to Re: Forgive, O Lord, posted by Doo on May 7, 2001, at 23:22:16
'I know I am alone in my boat, but it is so comforting to see lights of other boats, bobbing nearby, in the darkness'
a patient in existential psychotherapy.===I feel alone in my loneliness,
... that's very congruent of you :) and a good start...I haven't answered your post right away, Doo, please forgive me the delay, because i went orgasmic :) (it happens to me everytime someone utters the word 'existential', my favorite ) Then i took sometime to think whether you really mean it. then i decided what the heck, and posted :)
I would like to know more about the death wish. I have never experienced it 'entering my conscioussness', when i attempted suicide I just did it, only later it entered my conscioussnes.
===Most poeple have a great capacity, which I envy, to push away from their minds all existential questions.
well, according to existential dogma, they do not exactly push them away from their minds. these questions just intude into their conscoussness later, usually in times of great distress, which mental discomfort/illness certainly is.
===I simply would like the tough part to come in small doses, not all at once
Then do as you would like to. Say,"Ok, ok, questions, not all at once, one at a time please. I want to respectfully address each and every one of you. Now, who is the most desperate and unaddressed? Step forward!" :) it always works for me when my head starts to spin form too many tough questions demanding immediate answers and ACTION. Somehow they know very well how to line themselves up, when I promise I'll deal with everyone of them, and fullfill my promise. It is next to impossible to achieve, of course, if you are lying to yourself, and just want to hide.
===... hmmm I'm currently beginning a therapy, where I'll do all I can to find my way.
Godspeed, Doo.
A small word of advice. Remember at all times to talk to your therappist, not in front of him/her. That is rather a formidable challenge for a loner, but you can do it.mila
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 8, 2001, at 9:23:21
In reply to Re: Forgive, O Lord, posted by Doo on May 7, 2001, at 23:22:16
Isn't it strange what our brain turns up.. I was trying to explain to a psychologist this morning about how I feel with regards to life / death. Death seems a much better option, and suicide is on my mind most of the time.. But not in a black "Right, I want to kill myself2 kind of way.. more a "I can't be bothered to live much longer" kind of way.
I've also been finding a hole in me that I guess most people fill with their "religious" beliefs. Dunno how to fill this, but have a feeling maybe things will be better once I do. I want someone to give me proof, to show me exactly what to believe in.. I want God to shpow himself and say "see, I am real, you can believe in me"...
I hope things are getting better...
nikki xxx
Posted by mila on May 8, 2001, at 10:32:07
In reply to Re: Forgive, O Lord » Doo, posted by NikkiT2 on May 8, 2001, at 9:23:21
dear Doo and NikkiT2,
as I was reading your descriptions of suicidal thinking, and recalled the contents of mine, it dawned on me that we sometimes forget the symbolic nature of emotional thinking. Emotional reality is inescapably symbolic. AND the emotional mind always means what it thinks in no uncertain terms. Rational mind tends to misundertand emotional mind messages, misses the symbol, and acts as if it was prompted for objectively identical action.
What I am saying is the following. emotional mind says, "I can't be bothered to live much longer", it means to live THAT WAY, not live GENERALLY, or physically. the suicide of our choice, that we savour in our minds, is actually pinpointing what is wished to be stopped, or changed.
when i think suicide, i think jumping off the balcony, or on the tracks of the upcoming train. The first will hit my body into limp quietness, the second will compartmentalize it in parts, severe the head, from body, and body from legs. Symbolically, these thoughts depict the solutions to my troubles. I need to soften, to weaken the resistance to that which wants to leave its impression on me, and I need to allow three processes to happen simultaneously and independently: walking, or progressing, thinking, or understanding, and feeling, or visceral kind of understanding. these have to be 'disassembed', or disengaged for now.
when I actually attempted suicide, I cut my arms. Again, misunderstood the emotional urge. the message was 'be a handless maiden for a while, let others take care of you, be helpless, surrender, stop doing. your King will come for you, and will fetch you out.' (which eventually did happen in real life, when I allowed myself to stop doing, my King came and married me).
Nikki, for God to show himself to you, i am afraid you have to show yourself to Him first. He is looking for you all the time, Nikki as He has made her to be nowhere to be found. Allow yourself to do something very essentially Nikki-ish, boldly, flamingly, glaringly, truthfully so; and you'll hear Him greeting, rejoicing in finding His once lost child, or sister. Keep being TRULY yourself and He'll keep walking alongside you, hoding your hand, bathing you in his kindness...
love
mila
Posted by Doo on May 8, 2001, at 10:54:31
In reply to Re: other boats bobbing nearby, posted by mila on May 8, 2001, at 0:15:12
> 'I know I am alone in my boat, but it is so comforting to see lights of other boats, bobbing nearby, in the darkness'
> a patient in existential psychotherapy.that's the best I could feel about the loneliness - being able to see others in their loneliness. And relate to them, which is still hard for me (I'm still stuck in my defensive patterns, my armour).
> > ===I feel alone in my loneliness,
> ... that's very congruent of you :) and a good start...
> I haven't answered your post right away, Doo, please forgive me the delay, because i went orgasmic :)LOL
>(it happens to me everytime someone utters the word 'existential', my favorite ) Then i took sometime to think whether you really mean it.
I think I know what you mean- this kind of sentence can be used without really fealing it, like a kind of cliché. But I do feel it. And it's good to see other poeple, like you for instance, who face that truth. (or is it really the truth?)
>then i decided what the heck, and posted :)
I'm glad you did :)
> I would like to know more about the death wish. I have never experienced it 'entering my conscioussness', when i attempted suicide I just did it, only later it entered my conscioussnes.I know two kinds of "death wish" experiencing:
1- I feel dysphoric, and I wish a car hits me when I cross the street. (This is the less intense) More intense, when I drive my car and have an impulse coming from deep inside to turn the wheel and drive into a big pole while driving at 130 km/h on the autoroute. I feel the impulse in my body as my mind visualises the scence. That kind of experience I live since I'm 16, and never led me to a real attempt.
(Poeple who are in existentail crisis, please don't read what's following)
2- The second experience is the most threatening one. It does not involve any intense emotions. It is more the opposite. It is a non-emotional state. No anxiety, at least not consious. It is like everything is so clear. I hesitate to explain it all the way because it is so tempting to put a diagnostic on this. "delusional paranoid thinking". In fact, it is a state where the thinking can go on without any repression. And it leads to very disturbing, worrying conclusions. At least for me. I think the "direction" my thoughts will take is reliant on my early experiences. And I have the feeling my early experiences were not in my favor. Since I was very young, I have a kind of belief that 'luck, or life, is not on my side". When I did my badtrip experience with mushrooms, at that time I was studying psychology, I had had the course "psychology of the unconscious" and also was reading Castaneda. So that night, all the knowledge, all the information I had read formed a team to prove me that I was right from the start: life is not on my side. And the rest follows: I got to act. So it is not as much a wish as a so frighteningly logical conclusion. I don't want to go to far here, because I don't want to put any 'bad ideas' in the head of no one here. This is the last thing we need. See, since that time, I feel like I know something that I have to keep secret cause it leads to a "no turning back" point. It's a heavy weight. Very heavy.> > ===I simply would like the tough part to come in small doses, not all at once
> Then do as you would like to. Say,"Ok, ok, questions, not all at once, one at a time please. I want to respectfully address each and every one of you. Now, who is the most desperate and unaddressed? Step forward!" :) it always works for me when my head starts to spin form too many tough questions demanding immediate answers and ACTION. Somehow they know very well how to line themselves up, when I promise I'll deal with everyone of them, and fullfill my promise. It is next to impossible to achieve, of course, if you are lying to yourself, and just want to hide.Be sure I'll try that, thank's for the tip, sincerely.
> > ===... hmmm I'm currently beginning a therapy, where I'll do all I can to find my way.
>
> Godspeed, Doo.
> A small word of advice. Remember at all times to talk to your therappist, not in front of him/her. That is rather a formidable challenge for a loner, but you can do it.You mean like in psychoanalysis?
Well, gotta leave now, work's awaiting.
Read you later, and btw I like this discussion; it's not easy but it's satisfying and nurturing.
Doo
Posted by mila on May 8, 2001, at 11:56:59
In reply to Re: other boats bobbing nearby, posted by Doo on May 8, 2001, at 10:54:31
hi,
===my defensive patterns, my armour
what defensive patterns? what threatens you?
===is it really the truth?
yes, half of it.
===I wish a car hits me when I cross the street.
Quit crossing the street. Do Not Cross. What you are reaching for is not there. Stay on THIS side, until you realize. Or, better to say, stay right in the middle of your road voluntarily, and get used to other cars honking and drivers cursing, or offering you help, or respectfully streaming around you. Be bold. that seems to be the message of this death wish.
===drive into a big pole while driving at 130 km/h on the autoroute.
come in touch, or start thinking the opposite, or come to standstill when you realize you are moving that fast along AUTOroute. in other words, stop being self-sufficient, when it feels that wrong that the "death at the pole" thought enters your mind. think otherwise. that seems to be the message of this death wish.
===life is not on my side. And the rest follows: I got to act.
Do you hear yourself, Doo? you are uttering the Truth here. Life is not ON YOUR SIDE. Life is INSIDE. You've got to act. number all the things, Life is, and allow yourself to experience them, go slow, one at a time, do not binge on life, you migt find it too good to be true, and throw out in disbelief. Act as a living being. Lie consciously, cheat with full awareness, be truthful when you can afford it, display what you know, and let others judge you, etc.
===You mean like in psychoanalysis?
No, i mean like for real. you wanna say something to them. say it to them, do not behave like the person is not there, or like they will understand every word and sentence. Tailor your messages to their size and emotional state. If you notice that they are kinda deaf, speak louder, or more clearly, if you notice they are TOTALLY deaf, leave. find someone who has their hearing intact.
best
mila
Posted by Doo on May 8, 2001, at 13:03:12
In reply to Re: Forgive, O Lord » Doo, posted by NikkiT2 on May 8, 2001, at 9:23:21
Hello NikkiT2, thank's for your post.
> Isn't it strange what our brain turns up.. I was trying to explain to a psychologist this morning about how I feel with regards to life / death. Death seems a much better option, and suicide is on my mind most of the time..
Quite a burden, isn't it?
>But not in a black "Right, I want to kill myself kind of way.. more a "I can't be bothered to live much longer" kind of way.
I know what you mean, I've those feelings for years...
> I've also been finding a hole in me that I guess most people fill with their "religious" beliefs. Dunno how to fill this, but have a feeling maybe things will be better once I do. I want someone to give me proof, to show me exactly what to believe in.. I want God to shpow himself and say "see, I am real, you can believe in me"...
I prayed a lot, and never felt any answer that way. Many poeple do find something there, though, and I respect very much that path. I still have moments when I pray and sometimes, I feel some kind of warmth and secure feelings. But I don't have any more hope of having a sudden revelation. As for the beliefs, sometimes I think to myself "okay, there is nothing and I must face it", sometimes I'm less radical and think "there are probably many things that I don't know and there might be some 'good angels' somewhere". The last week, I was more in the first situation...
> I hope things are getting better...Yes, a bit better, thank's a lot. I appreciate your posting very much.
Doo
Posted by Noa on May 8, 2001, at 15:47:57
In reply to Re: Forgive, O Lord » NikkiT2, posted by Doo on May 8, 2001, at 13:03:12
I think finding meaning in one's life is important, whether it is through religion or some other means. Sometimes, for me, it is through some kind of volunteer work that helps me feel like I am contributing something good to the world.
This kind of experience can happen even in the smallest of contributions--it doesn't have to be anything big.
For some people it is some form of artistic experience--visual arts, dance, music, poetry, whatever. For others, it might be in learning things. For others, prayer,etc.
But I do think it is important to be open to exploring the question of what we each find meaningful.
Posted by Doo on May 8, 2001, at 16:34:16
In reply to Re: being able to hear. Doo, posted by mila on May 8, 2001, at 11:56:59
> ===my defensive patterns, my armour
>
> what defensive patterns? what threatens you?This is what I want to find in therapy.
> ===is it really the truth?
>
> yes, half of it.
Hehe. It's the logical truth, but not the human one.> ===I wish a car hits me when I cross the street.
>
> Quit crossing the street. Do Not Cross. What you are reaching for is not there. Stay on THIS side, until you realize. Or, better to say, stay right in the middle of your road voluntarily, and get used to other cars honking and drivers cursing, or offering you help, or respectfully streaming around you. Be bold. that seems to be the message of this death wish.
>
> ===drive into a big pole while driving at 130 km/h on the autoroute.
>
> come in touch, or start thinking the opposite, or come to standstill when you realize you are moving that fast along AUTOroute. in other words, stop being self-sufficient, when it feels that wrong that the "death at the pole" thought enters your mind. think otherwise. that seems to be the message of this death wish.
>These are very insightful observations... Unfortunately, the meaning of all this has to come from within me, otherwise it's not fully integrated.
> No, i mean like for real. you wanna say something to them. say it to them, do not behave like the person is not there, or like they will understand every word and sentence. Tailor your messages to their size and emotional state. If you notice that they are kinda deaf, speak louder, or more clearly, if you notice they are TOTALLY deaf, leave. find someone who has their hearing intact.
> best
> milaok best to you too, mila.
Doo
Posted by bergamot on May 8, 2001, at 17:08:02
In reply to Re: Forgive, O Lord, posted by Noa on May 8, 2001, at 15:47:57
I'm interested in this thread, but it may take me a while to get my thoughts together into something coherent.
Doo, you mentioned something about becoming psychotic--I'm diagnosed with "psychosis not otherwise specified", so I guess I'm officially psychotic. One thing that I've been thinking about recently is how much "psychosis" is culturally determined.
For example, if I (or perhaps more importantly, my psychiatrist) were a Buddhist, would the thoughts that come to me about the nature of reality be considered correct and indicative of progress along the path?
Can you tell more about the type of therapy you're entering? Is it for "existential" issues? I haven't gotten anywhere with the therapists I've been to, but that may have been because my diagnosis at the time was depression and what they thought would be my "issues" weren't.
Posted by Doo on May 9, 2001, at 11:25:49
In reply to psychosis and existential stuff, posted by bergamot on May 8, 2001, at 17:08:02
> I'm interested in this thread, but it may take me a while to get my thoughts together into something coherent.
>
> Doo, you mentioned something about becoming psychotic--I'm diagnosed with "psychosis not otherwise specified", so I guess I'm officially psychotic. One thing that I've been thinking about recently is how much "psychosis" is culturally determined.
>
> For example, if I (or perhaps more importantly, my psychiatrist) were a Buddhist, would the thoughts that come to me about the nature of reality be considered correct and indicative of progress along the path?I too thought about that, and I think you're right. For instance, I've read some Carlos Castaneda's books, and his master, a Mexican "Sorcerer", does not make any difference between reality and what one perceives. That is, what one perceives is reality, and he must not ask himself what others perceive. So this is just an example, and btw I do not especially recommand those books.
>
> Can you tell more about the type of therapy you're entering? Is it for "existential" issues? I haven't gotten anywhere with the therapists I've been to, but that may have been because my diagnosis at the time was depression and what they thought would be my "issues" weren't.The psychologist I'm seeing told me she sees herself as an "existential-dynamic psychologist", and her approach is based on the works of James F Masterson. http://www.mastersoninstitute.org/ you may want to give it a look.
I want to work on many things, existential pain, my difficulties relating to others, my difficulties taking decisions and finding a professional goal.
I hope you find an approach/therapy that suits you best.
Take care,
Doo
Posted by kid47 on May 9, 2001, at 12:39:34
In reply to psychosis and existential stuff, posted by bergamot on May 8, 2001, at 17:08:02
Hi. Had to jump in here. This is a very interesting thread. My therapy too has been inadequate. Existential issues, for whatever reason, seem to me to be at the heart of my illness. The therps I have talked to seem to basically ignore this & want me to deal mainly with the day to day process of functional living. Granted this is important but if I were to somehow rectify my core issues, I believe everything else would fall into place.
I am constantly plagued with concerns about what we (humans) really are. Are we basically just a developed organism that is directed by chemical reactions& electrical impulses? Obviously this question has been asked many times before, hence (along with a bunch of other reasons) the development of religion. I too have a spiritual void which I know makes things harder for me to deal with. I want terribly to allow myself to put my life in the hands of a higher power as I am so tired of trying to figure it out on my own. I am an electrical engineer. I have a good grasp of physics. My life has revolved around "bullet proof" theories & empirical investigation. It is extremely diificult for me to accept anything on faith alone. I have read several articles that set out to "scientifically" reinforce the teachings in the Bible, but it still requires a significant leap of faith to accept.
I am amazed by what occurs in nature. At times I can almost convince myself that there MUST be some supreme force directing or at least initially triggering this incredible chain of events called creation. I feel good when I am thinking this, but inevtiably the more harsh "realities" of what science truly can prove begins to influence the "logical" mind.
Some say believing in a higher authority is a choice. But how do you make it? I go to church. I have gone to more liberal religious gatherings also, but it all feels alien & hypocritical to me. I have explored alternative spiritual teachings but I just don't get it. They say fear is a great motivator. True. But do I have to become so desperate & afraid that I will convince myself that an all powerful creator is watching over us in this life & the next.(& that there is a next!) That doesn't strike me as the basis for a good relationship on any level.
Sorry this has become such a novel. It is hard for me to get a handle on my true feelings about this & articulate them. It's more of a gut feeling-so I tend to ramble. I have made significant strides in the last several months dealing with my illness. This issue of "what are we, why are we here?" is someting I truly need to address. I guess I should be thankful that I am finally to a point where I have the state of mind to even consider this stuff. Any input, ideas, opinions, advice would sure be welcome. TIA
Kid
> I'm interested in this thread, but it may take me a while to get my thoughts together into something coherent.
>
> Doo, you mentioned something about becoming psychotic--I'm diagnosed with "psychosis not otherwise specified", so I guess I'm officially psychotic. One thing that I've been thinking about recently is how much "psychosis" is culturally determined.
>
> For example, if I (or perhaps more importantly, my psychiatrist) were a Buddhist, would the thoughts that come to me about the nature of reality be considered correct and indicative of progress along the path?
>
> Can you tell more about the type of therapy you're entering? Is it for "existential" issues? I haven't gotten anywhere with the therapists I've been to, but that may have been because my diagnosis at the time was depression and what they thought would be my "issues" weren't.
Posted by stjames on May 9, 2001, at 14:47:26
In reply to Re: psychosis and existential stuff, posted by kid47 on May 9, 2001, at 12:39:34
> Hi. Had to jump in here. This is a very interesting thread. My therapy too has been inadequate. Existential issues, for whatever reason, seem to me to be at the heart of my illness. The therps I have talked to seem to basically ignore this & want me to deal mainly with the day to day process of functional living. Granted this is important but if I were to somehow rectify my core issues, I believe everything else would fall into place.
>James here....
Try reading the German existential writer Herman Hesse. You may find some answers there.
james
Posted by Doo on May 9, 2001, at 17:09:02
In reply to Re: psychosis and existential stuff, posted by kid47 on May 9, 2001, at 12:39:34
Hi Kid,
> Hi. Had to jump in here. This is a very interesting thread. My therapy too has been inadequate. Existential issues, for whatever reason, seem to me to be at the heart of my illness. The therps I have talked to seem to basically ignore this & want me to deal mainly with the day to day process of functional living. Granted this is important but if I were to somehow rectify my core issues, I believe everything else would fall into place.
I understand so much what you mean. Some approachs see existential questionning as it was a 'bug' in the program. They claim that having a satisfying day-to-day living is the key. I think it's okay for some poeple. But for others, there is a limit to that approach. I think we need a space, a time, to explore that 'lack of answer', that painful silence. And finally find our own way to deal with it. A friend of mine has chosen to try psychoanalysis, a special approach (www.gifric.com) based on freud and lacan. She actually works in a centre where they treat 'psychotic' patients with psychoanalysis. Freud and Lacan themselves believed that their approach was not effective for 'psychotics'. But that centre has a special approach which helps the person be responsible, assume their weird ideas, and step towards more autonomy. As for the psychoanalytic process, it does bring a period of crisis, and the aim is to be able to face those crisis by ourselves, gradually. I may one day begin that type of therapy, but it scares me a lot. Bacause I once was so paralysed by the crisis, I don't want to live that again... But I'm afraid I'll have to face it at some times in my life anyway. For the moment, I try to maintain a relatively stable day-to-day life and will see where my therapy leads me.
> I am constantly plagued with concerns about what we (humans) really are. Are we basically just a developed organism that is directed by chemical reactions& electrical impulses?
Urgh. That question sometimes pushes me into total terror and feeling of absurdity - I had a 'psychotic' episode where I was convinced that killing myself was the best I could do for me. I'm really scared it comes back. I don't take antipsychotics and I wish I never have to. I never went to hospital and wish I never have to. In fact I'd like to talk about it and I'm so scared to talk about it because it brings back the 'psychotic' feeling of absurdity and madness I lived 5 years ago while on 'magic' mushrooms.
>Obviously this question has been asked many times before, hence (along with a bunch of other reasons) the development of religion. I too have a spiritual void which I know makes things harder for me to deal with. I want terribly to allow myself to put my life in the hands of a higher power as I am so tired of trying to figure it out on my own. I am an electrical engineer. I have a good grasp of physics. My life has revolved around "bullet proof" theories & empirical investigation. It is extremely diificult for me to accept anything on faith alone. I have read several articles that set out to "scientifically" reinforce the teachings in the Bible, but it still requires a significant leap of faith to accept.
>
I know exactly what you mean. I lived an intense crisis that lasted for long, long months. I went to India, in a state of complete despair, and found a guru, and I had some mystic experiences. But nothing that has calmed my pain. After a couple of years of search for medication and therapy, the crisis is less intense, but still there. I begin to think and accept that it is there to stay, that I have to face it with the help of a good therapist.It's good to hear that I'm not alone asking myself what I am, why I'm here... And not finding any real answer. For the moment, I think part of the answer may be to share that hole.
As for new scientifical evidence that reinforces teachings of the bible, I never heard of that. I heard some vague things about old oriental sayings being reingorced by new findings. But never read any serious works about that. I have read some books about an afterlife, and the NDE's (Near-death-experience), and some facts really shake the logical mind, forcing us to admit that 'geez there really IS something there!'. Unfortunately in the everyday life, this 'something' stays hidden.
> I am amazed by what occurs in nature. At times I can almost convince myself that there MUST be some supreme force directing or at least initially triggering this incredible chain of events called creation. I feel good when I am thinking this, but inevtiably the more harsh "realities" of what science truly can prove begins to influence the "logical" mind.
>
> Some say believing in a higher authority is a choice. But how do you make it?I really have no clue. Being able to make that choice supposes you have a certain faith in something and that that something is trustable. Many pretend this is the best thing we can do.
>I go to church. I have gone to more liberal religious gatherings also, but it all feels alien & hypocritical to me. I have explored alternative spiritual teachings but I just don't get it. They say fear is a great motivator. True. But do I have to become so desperate & afraid that I will convince myself that an all powerful creator is watching over us in this life & the next.(& that there is a next!) That doesn't strike me as the basis for a good relationship on any level.
>
> Sorry this has become such a novel. It is hard for me to get a handle on my true feelings about this & articulate them. It's more of a gut feeling-so I tend to ramble. I have made significant strides in the last several months dealing with my illness. This issue of "what are we, why are we here?" is someting I truly need to address. I guess I should be thankful that I am finally to a point where I have the state of mind to even consider this stuff. Any input, ideas, opinions, advice would sure be welcome. TIA
>
> Kid
>I hope you eventually find your answers (and I wish that for myself too)
oh and what's TIA ?
Read you later,
Doo
Posted by kid47 on May 9, 2001, at 19:38:11
In reply to Re: psychosis and existential stuff » kid47, posted by Doo on May 9, 2001, at 17:09:02
> I hope you eventually find your answers (and I wish that for myself too)
>
> oh and what's TIA ?
>
> Read you later,
>
> Doo
Hey. Thanks for the input. It does help to know there are others who struggle with these types of questions. I sometimes feel guilty for "wasting time" with these issues when there is so much else to do. I tend to obsess about it. Well if being crazy was easy I guess everbody would do it. LOLRe: TIA: Talking in Arabic, Thinking in abstract, Tinsel is attractive, Throw it away, Telling it all, Tearing it apart, Throwingup is awful. Phew!! Actually, Thanks In Advance. Aren't you glad you asked hehehehe.
Kid
Posted by mila on May 9, 2001, at 21:43:31
In reply to Re: psychosis and existential stuff, posted by kid47 on May 9, 2001, at 12:39:34
hi Kid,
you seem to me to be a thirsty person who denies himself 8 full glasses of water everyday, keeping himself on dry diet.
if existential issues seem to be at heart of your illness, then you've got what is called 'creative illness'. which is not an illness, in a sense, that there is nothing wrong with you, as there is nothing wrong with being thirsty. It's time for you to be creative and answer your call. Find yourself someone who can coach you in unleashing your creativity in philosophical arena. It's time you started taking existential, or core issues seriously. anything goes, taking a course or two in college, where you'd be asked to think independently and submit original papers, seeing someone who practices existential or phenomenological analysis (do you know the difference), writing your philosophical autobiography as a legacy for your children, etc. to start going, and to avoid inventing the wheel, familiarize yourself first with what has already been done in research about human nature. Introduction to Personality and Psychotherapy: a theory construction approach by Joseph F. Rychlak might be an excellent beginnig. Beware, however, this text is not for a layperson, it is for someone who really has penchant for serious thinking, for serious questions, and seroius answers.
if you want to put yourself in hands of higher power, do it. Do as you want. the higher power seems to reveal itself in your life in form of 'plaguing you with concerns of what you as a human really are'. These questions definitely have a higher power over you, if you chose the word 'plagued' to characterize the way they manifest themselves in your life. this is your call. how come you haven't been answering it? reading answers by others to their call, or following the way they come in touch with higher power won't do the trick for you, as you have already discovered.
there is nothing 'bullet proof' about physical theories, and i do not mean larger theories swallowing smaller ones, like einstein's thinking swallowed newton's one. I mean, if you follow the development of modern physics, you must have noticed an astounding influx of young talents to what seemed to be a dead field in the last 5-7 years. The theories they come up with are tremendous in just how they differ from what was thought about the nature of the physical reality before. tip: Tuesday editions of The New York Times have Science Times insert. Check it out for regular updates on the latest in physics, philosophy and everything in between. you can access them online, if you cannot get the paper.
it also might be helpful for you to know that existentialism or phenomenology ARE experimental sciences today. They come under names of transcendental phenomenology and existential phenomenology today, and experimental research (empirical investigation) in this area mostly is done by psychologists, ethicists, and psychiatrists.
For scientific reinforcement of teachings of Bible, or other religious texts, or dogmas for that matter, that won't require 'leap of faith' see , for exmple, Maps of Meaning: Architecture of Belief (1999), by Jordan B. Peterson, Ph.D. ( I am doing research with him 'on human nature' at UofT starting this September)
you make a choice first by counting your choices. two choices, believe or not believe is not enough, come up with more than that. Then choose. then you'll choose out of abundance and fit to your tastes, not out of poverty, fear, and desperation.
Consider yourself lucky that you have already got good standing in electical engineering, now move on to philosophy, then bridge the two by exploring what's human. reading advice: The Interpreted World, by Ernesto Spinelli.
Just realize, that you must be an intellectual and emotional giant, if higher forces chose to plague YOU with concerns about human nature. People like you are quite rare, but then again, world is full of unrealized geniuses. Your choice.
Good to know you, kid. I am a recovering electrical engineer myself. Have been plaqued by existential questions, ugh... since age 14 or so. tried to escape into hard science first, but when became creative there (innovation in electical design), was swept into the sea of psychology and technology of innovative process itself. The rest is history.
Grow Big, kid. discover everything there is about happiness, death, and the remainder of life. Do not restrict yourself, to listening, say. do not reduce yourself to reading, write. Do nor resign yourself to logic and gut feelings, discover Heart. sure it will take some time to adjust your life to its beat. as Twain said so nicely, "A lie can run around the world six times while the truth is still trying to put on its pants" :)
push the grass apart and lay your finger on God's heart.
best
mila
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 10, 2001, at 6:10:00
In reply to Re: Forgive, O Lord » NikkiT2, posted by Doo on May 8, 2001, at 13:03:12
Thanks both for you answers.. I'm still exploring this area alot, but am now sure there is something out there wanting to fill me... just got to find exact;ly what it is. I've always been interested in the theological side of religion, and have been a regular church goer at times... but neve felt this way before...
Right this second, I am in my ofice, over looking one fo Londons famous cematries (lots of famous writers buried there and things) the sun is shining, the trees in leaf, and it it is all so peaceful, but a definate spiritual peacefulness.
Dunno whether this is all part fo the "illness" (severe personality disorder, possibly Schizotypal) or real life though, thats why I want to investigate it so much..
#
nikki xxx
Posted by mila on May 10, 2001, at 6:56:46
In reply to Re: Forgive, O Lord Doo Mila, posted by NikkiT2 on May 10, 2001, at 6:10:00
Nikki,
thanks for answering.
wow, severe shizotypal, how odd can you be. I would never guess judging from your posts. Do you agree with the diagnosis yourself? Do you know the criteria? (socially isolated, suspicioussness, odd beliefs, ideas of reference, magical thinking, illusions, paranoid thoughts, little emotional expression, passive and unengaged, hypersensitive to critisicm, etc.) Do you have relatives with schizophrenia?There is a book about successful therapy with a patient who had been labeled 'schizoid'. Have you read it? It is written by both therapist and patient: Every Day Gets a Little Closer, by Irv Yalom and Ginny Elkin. If you like it, or recognize yourself in it, you can try existential counselling/therapy. Luckily for you, England is the only place in the world where they have a school specifically for training this kind of therapists.
you can contact Dr.Ernesto Spinelli at School of Psychotherapy and Counselling, Regent's College, London, and ask for referral. Spinelli describes his work in Tales of Un-knowing (1997). I think that American existential therapists have a goal of changing the person relying on existent resources and incorporation some new ones, while their British colleagues believe it is impossible, and strive for clarification and confrontation of the problems of life relying on resources already available to the person.
this morning in Toronto is also beautiful, promises a gorgeous spring day.
love
mila
Posted by Greg on May 10, 2001, at 7:34:26
In reply to If it feels good, do it(kid47), posted by mila on May 9, 2001, at 21:43:31
Mila,
"a recovering electrical engineer", that is one of the most priceless things I've ever seen written here! I'm a Doc Control specialist for an engineering firm and not a day goes by that I don't wish at least one of our engineers would consider recovery... :)
Thanks for the smile!
Greg
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 10, 2001, at 11:12:58
In reply to thanks Nikki, posted by mila on May 10, 2001, at 6:56:46
oooh, Regents college is quite near me!!!
As strange as it may seem, alot fo the criteria from schizotypal do match me.. I have just beocme so adept at hiding it all, it second nature not to reveal whats really going on inside etc... One day I would love to just open my mouth and all this crap in my brain to come flooding out.. maybe then I can start from scratch and not be struggling for every breath as I seem to be now a days.
Toronto is so lovely... I had a wonderful holiday visiting relatives there and really hope one day to make it back again... And maybe even over come my fear of heights and see the views from the upper bit in the CN tower (went to the middle bit which was fun!)!! I did go up to the higher bit, but sat outside the lift crying with fear while my mum and elderly great aunt wandered around fine!!!
Enjoy spring!!
nikki xxxx
> Nikki,
> thanks for answering.
> wow, severe shizotypal, how odd can you be. I would never guess judging from your posts. Do you agree with the diagnosis yourself? Do you know the criteria? (socially isolated, suspicioussness, odd beliefs, ideas of reference, magical thinking, illusions, paranoid thoughts, little emotional expression, passive and unengaged, hypersensitive to critisicm, etc.) Do you have relatives with schizophrenia?
>
> There is a book about successful therapy with a patient who had been labeled 'schizoid'. Have you read it? It is written by both therapist and patient: Every Day Gets a Little Closer, by Irv Yalom and Ginny Elkin. If you like it, or recognize yourself in it, you can try existential counselling/therapy. Luckily for you, England is the only place in the world where they have a school specifically for training this kind of therapists.
>
> you can contact Dr.Ernesto Spinelli at School of Psychotherapy and Counselling, Regent's College, London, and ask for referral. Spinelli describes his work in Tales of Un-knowing (1997). I think that American existential therapists have a goal of changing the person relying on existent resources and incorporation some new ones, while their British colleagues believe it is impossible, and strive for clarification and confrontation of the problems of life relying on resources already available to the person.
>
> this morning in Toronto is also beautiful, promises a gorgeous spring day.
>
> love
> mila
Posted by Doo on May 10, 2001, at 12:11:04
In reply to Re: thanks Nikki » mila, posted by NikkiT2 on May 10, 2001, at 11:12:58
> As strange as it may seem, alot fo the criteria from schizotypal do match me.. I have just beocme so adept at hiding it all, it second nature not to reveal whats really going on inside etc... One day I would love to just open my mouth and all this crap in my brain to come flooding out.. maybe then I can start from scratch and not be struggling for every breath as I seem to be now a days.
Few! This is strange enough reading this, it's as if I was reading my own words. I have never had any 'strict' diagnostic. I never really wanted one anyway. But reading all kinds of stuff leads me to think I would fit in 'schizotyical', 'schizoaffective disorder' or 'borderline personnality disorder'.
> >(socially isolated, suspicioussness, odd beliefs, ideas of reference, magical thinking, illusions, paranoid thoughts, little emotional expression, passive and unengaged, hypersensitive to critisicm, etc.)
Well, it is always difficult to qualify my own beliefs as 'odd'. Sure they can seem 'odd' to poeple who don't have the same theoretical background as me (lots of readings in psychology, psychoanalysis, bio-psychology). The other things seem to reflect well the suffering part of me, at a certain level. Paranoid thoughts, illusions *not hallucinations*, and magical thinking happen to me sometimes, not all day long. Suspiciousness is definitively part of me. It's a hard thing to overcome. I must often tell myself 'okay, this person is not going to hurt me, I'm not in a danger of any kind'. Relating to others in general is hard. Sometimes it's like I don't know how, and too often blame myself about it. But I know a little more now why I'm like this. I didn't have much space in my family to explore relating to others. Now I gotta deal with that, and I feel like I hide so many things to others... I too would like to open the mouth and let it all out. I don't really know what would come out, and that's why sometimes I think about psychoanalysis, just to let it all out, to verbalize, to express the unexpressed.
About diagnostics: we must not identify with the 'illness', and we have to remind ourselves who we really are, not all white, not all black, but in shades of grey.
On these thoughts, I wish you a good day (or night)
A feeling-a-little-better Doo
Posted by Doo on May 10, 2001, at 12:27:13
In reply to Re: psychosis and existential stuff » Doo, posted by kid47 on May 9, 2001, at 19:38:11
> Hey. Thanks for the input. It does help to know there are others who struggle with these types of questions.
I also feel it helps. It's a kind of relief 'boy I'm not the only one!'
>I sometimes feel guilty for "wasting time" with these issues when there is so much else to do. I tend to obsess about it. Well if being crazy was easy I guess everbody would do it. LOL
LOL
> Re: TIA: Talking in Arabic, Thinking in abstract, Tinsel is attractive, Throw it away, Telling it all, Tearing it apart, Throwingup is awful. Phew!! Actually, Thanks In Advance. Aren't you glad you asked hehehehe.
Truly Insomniacs Association,
Testicule Inflamation Assault, (ouch!)
(this is hard in english, I love to do this stuff in french!)
Tourtières Invertébrées Amoindries
Terreur Impossiblement Affamée
Tentatives Inopportunes et AbortivesSorry, untranslatable, at least for me!
Bye!
Doo
Posted by kid47 on May 10, 2001, at 15:58:51
In reply to Re: psychosis and existential stuff, posted by kid47 on May 9, 2001, at 12:39:34
Hi. Thanx to all for your insight & suggestions. My first stop is Barnes & Noble (bookstore) to check out some of these authors. I do feel the need to investigate this stuff. But I also feel the need to eat cookies & ice cream. A little bit & I feel better, comforted. Too much & I get sick. So I hope I don't overdue( obsess about) it. Does that make any sense? Oh well. Thanx again!!
Kid
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