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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shellie on February 13, 2001, at 11:14:23
Am I the only one who has a woman therapist or pdoc? No one responded to my post about female clothes in the blue shirt thread and going through the list, it seems like everyone on that thread sees a male.
Did you all choose males on purpose, or were more men available to you as pdocs and therapists? I am curious whether many women perfer male therapists.
Also with men--are they more likely to go to a man or woman. When I am waiting for my therapist I have noticed the other person I am waiting with (for the other therapist in the office, who's also a woman) is most often a man. Maybe men feel more comfortable with a woman therapist. I have no idea.
I live in a city that (I think) has the highest therapist to general population ratio, so there is an enormous choice in chosing a therapist, unless perhaps you are in an HMO.
And I have picked up from some people (especially from Nikki) that they would love to go to anyone-male, female, or other.
Shellie
Posted by judy1 on February 13, 2001, at 12:06:39
In reply to Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by shellie on February 13, 2001, at 11:14:23
Hi Shellie,
I think this is really an interesting question. My male psychiatrist (who does meds and therapy) insisted I see a female psychologist who specializes in childhood abuse issues. I was unable to speak to him about this, just as I was unable to speak to my first male psychiatrist, with whom I had a relationship that had lots of boundary issues. So I think I tend to seek male psychiatrists (I'm sure Freud would have had lots to say about that), but I find myself very comfortable with this particular female psychologist. I really think the personality of the therapist has a lot to do with this more than gender though, since I have a great deal of problems with trust and have been through over a dozen shrinks that I wouldn't return to. Just some of my thoughts. Take care, Judy
Posted by willow on February 13, 2001, at 14:26:32
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by judy1 on February 13, 2001, at 12:06:39
Shellie
I responded right below your post with "You guys are lucky." I too wanted a female but none were available only men up here. I figured I could do the usual male rants with a female and she would be more understanding. And who wants to talk to a guy about personal things. I thought if I could get a woman it would be like chatting with a girlfriend even though I do have guy friends (but the conversations are different.)
Posted by shellie on February 13, 2001, at 14:31:41
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by willow on February 13, 2001, at 14:26:32
But do you find now that it doesn't matter than he's a guy or that you still feel inhibited? shellie
>
>
Posted by Noa on February 13, 2001, at 15:31:51
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by willow on February 13, 2001, at 14:26:32
My first therapist, in another city, was a guy. It was a publicly funded clinic, so I had little choice (I would have had to wait a while for a female therapist). But it worked out really well--I worked with him for a number of years, and made a lot of progress.
When I moved here, I decided to try a woman therapist. It didn't work out so well. In some ways, I liked that she was able to offer me what a male therapist wouldn't have, but in other ways, I wasn't that comfortable with her. I don't know if it was because she is female, or certain idiosyncracies about her--her office was in her home, and one time I came 5 minutes early, and she answered the door in a towel, having just stepped out of the shower--that made me very uncomfortable. In any event, I had gone to her for short term work anyway.
So, a couple of years later when I decided to find a therapist, I thought about it and realized that I think I am more comfortable with a male therapist, perhaps because I have so many issues with my mother. Growing up, my father was rather benign to me, though quite absent and unavailable emotionally. My mother, tho, was more intrusive and critical toward me. So, I think I feel safer with a male therapist. Of course, perhaps working with a woman therapist would have forced me to address some of my issues with my mother, but at this point, who cares. The therapy has been helpful and I needed to feel that safety.
Posted by Terry1 on February 13, 2001, at 15:32:26
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs » willow, posted by shellie on February 13, 2001, at 14:31:41
Shellie, I have both female psychiatrist (hour a week) and female therapist (hour a week). I didn't choose them because them were female, but now that I have established relationships with them, I can't imagine it any other way.
Terry
Posted by shellie on February 13, 2001, at 15:46:25
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by Noa on February 13, 2001, at 15:31:51
>--her office was in her home, and one time I came 5 minutes early, and she answered the door in a towel, having just stepped out of the shower--that made me very uncomfortable. In any event, I had gone to her for short term work anyway.>
Noa, that would have totally flipped me out. The only thing that I could imagine worse is if it has been a male therapist answering the door with a towel! Having been to therapists with home offices, I decided I really didn't like that. Boundaries are confusing enough in therapy without adding all this additional information about the therapist's home, and eventually, I discovered, seeing their spouse, or children at some point becomes inevitable. Still, oddly, I look up everything I can about them--where they live etc. because I am really curious. Maybe that's why I need the therapist to have strong boundaries; because I don't. Shellie
Posted by Adam on February 13, 2001, at 17:25:40
In reply to Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by shellie on February 13, 2001, at 11:14:23
I've met a couple women who only want female therapists.
One has a hard time with pre-menstrual dysphoria, and feels
it's easier to talk to a woman, and, of course, a woman's
advice on the subject is a lot more credible than a man's.
I know of NO female friends who have a male gynecologist.
I wonder if that trend will move to psychotherapists and
psychiatrists.I now have a female pdoc. Before I had a male. It's been
fine either way.> Am I the only one who has a woman therapist or pdoc? No one responded to my post about female clothes in the blue shirt thread and going through the list, it seems like everyone on that thread sees a male.
>
> Did you all choose males on purpose, or were more men available to you as pdocs and therapists? I am curious whether many women perfer male therapists.
>
> Also with men--are they more likely to go to a man or woman. When I am waiting for my therapist I have noticed the other person I am waiting with (for the other therapist in the office, who's also a woman) is most often a man. Maybe men feel more comfortable with a woman therapist. I have no idea.
>
> I live in a city that (I think) has the highest therapist to general population ratio, so there is an enormous choice in chosing a therapist, unless perhaps you are in an HMO.
>
> And I have picked up from some people (especially from Nikki) that they would love to go to anyone-male, female, or other.
>
> Shellie
Posted by allisonm on February 13, 2001, at 18:12:46
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by Adam on February 13, 2001, at 17:25:40
I was in so much pain that I didn't shop for a psychiatrist, and wouldn't have known what to look for anyway. I took the one and only reference from the CSW managing the university sleep study I'd just gotten out of. She said he'd helped her. That was enough for me. He prescribes drugs and does psychotherapy. I like him very much. I think I lucked out.
The only other therapy I'd had was with a CSW, but that was on issues having to do with my mother's alcoholism. I found her overly sympathetic, and when she got that way, her speech slowed to a crawl too, so I felt like a toddler. She sounded kind of like an alto Shirley Temple, if you can imagine that.
My current pdoc will lower his voice when things get bad, but I don't get the (what felt to me like) condescending near-baby-talk. He'll just let the silence come in and give us both a chance to collect our thoughts before going on.
In the end, I left the CSW 5 years ago because she tried to push me into getting back into a relationship with my dad. I just canceled the next appt., never said another word, never said why, and never went back.
My current pdoc, who I've seen for 3 yrs., wouldn't do that.
Posted by willow on February 13, 2001, at 18:49:37
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs » willow, posted by shellie on February 13, 2001, at 14:31:41
"But do you find now that it doesn't matter than he's a guy or that you still feel inhibited?"
Yeah I still am somewhat! I just got the courage to admit that I would feel it a betayal to say something personal about a family member or friend to him, and this is after 2 1/2 years and my husbands and best friend's encouragement.
Now I can't say definitely that I would be more candid with a woman but I suspect so. I may be looking back to when I saw a woman psychologist back in my teen years, but then she may have been more of a big sister/mother figure to me.
Posted by willow on February 13, 2001, at 19:18:48
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by Adam on February 13, 2001, at 17:25:40
about quirks got me thinking. I probably would get more riled up over some quirk in a woman than a man. I'm more forgiving of guys I guess?
Posted by ksvt on February 13, 2001, at 20:40:00
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by allisonm on February 13, 2001, at 18:12:46
>Shellie - I've had 2 different pdocs who were also my therapists. Both were older men whom I shepherded into retirement. What would Freud say about that? Tomorrow I see a woman pdoc who supposedly concentrates in women with depression. I have also seen 2 women therapists, including my current therapist. The first one I saw in addition to therapy with my pdoc because he felt there were certain issues that I might more easily discuss with a woman. I didn't really click with her and i found the 2 therapist deal to be much too confusing. After that I continued to see my pdoc, but only very sporadically. When i decided i wanted to go back into therapy I asked him for a recommendation, and although I didn't specify, I was really looking for a woman. It's worked out better, and I do find that it's easier for me to talk to her. I don't know whether it's a gender thing, or that we're both middle aged working women with children, or that I was just ready to talk about certain subjects that I had resisted before. I used to think I preferred my MDs to be men. Now i find myself with a woman dentist, woman internist, woman therapist and soon to be woman pdoc. I think I prefer it this way. K
I was in so much pain that I didn't shop for a psychiatrist, and wouldn't have known what to look for anyway. I took the one and only reference from the CSW managing the university sleep study I'd just gotten out of. She said he'd helped her. That was enough for me. He prescribes drugs and does psychotherapy. I like him very much. I think I lucked out.
>
> The only other therapy I'd had was with a CSW, but that was on issues having to do with my mother's alcoholism. I found her overly sympathetic, and when she got that way, her speech slowed to a crawl too, so I felt like a toddler. She sounded kind of like an alto Shirley Temple, if you can imagine that.
>
> My current pdoc will lower his voice when things get bad, but I don't get the (what felt to me like) condescending near-baby-talk. He'll just let the silence come in and give us both a chance to collect our thoughts before going on.
>
> In the end, I left the CSW 5 years ago because she tried to push me into getting back into a relationship with my dad. I just canceled the next appt., never said another word, never said why, and never went back.
>
> My current pdoc, who I've seen for 3 yrs., wouldn't do that.
Posted by shar on February 14, 2001, at 0:54:03
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by ksvt on February 13, 2001, at 20:40:00
My therapist is a woman, majority of my pdocs have been but current one is male; female attorney, gynecologist, tailor, dentist, physician, opthamologist/optometrist, dog trainer, financial planner (tho I don't need her services anymore), insurance agent, CPA, etc.
Shar
Posted by Rach on February 14, 2001, at 8:37:44
In reply to Re: Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by Adam on February 13, 2001, at 17:25:40
I just feel more comfortable. Full stop. No other reason than being with a female makes it easier for me to talk. Couldn't say why exactly.
Posted by JennyR on February 23, 2001, at 20:08:38
In reply to Females for me..., posted by Rach on February 14, 2001, at 8:37:44
My therapist is male. I never thought it made a difference. To me people are people, just different packaging. But it has been very uncomfortable when we've talked about sex. I remember after several sessions spent about sex, he asked how I had felt talking about it with him being a man. And that wasn't the first time he referred to his gender and I always thought that didn't matter. Like he would say that I feel attached to him or appreciate his attentiveness (which I used to express from time to time) because my father didn't pay much attention to me and my brother wasn't nice to me growing up. And to me I would think, well, my mother was a bitch with a terrible temper, so what does gender have to do with any of this. But then I was having some menstrual irregularities and needed to have some tests done and when I started to mention it, I felt very inhibited. He asked was it a problem with my periods. I was finding that weird to talk about though with a woman it might not have been. And I guess on some level I must have some kind of unconscious love thing going on because I'm intensely jealous of the wife when I've seen him with her or seen her alone or with their kid. I compare myself to her, wonder what he sees in her, etc. If he were a woman, I don't think I'd have this jealousy thing going with the spouse, so maybe there gender does matter. Even what I believe to be a very pure love within all the boundaries, still causes me to be jealous in that way. And I do find him attractive, though I have no illusions about anything beyond the boundaries.
Posted by judy1 on February 23, 2001, at 20:32:09
In reply to Male......, posted by JennyR on February 23, 2001, at 20:08:38
As someone who has been through this with unfortunate consequences, I can't stress how important it is to discuss what your feelings are with him. If you feel embarrassed perhaps you could write it out and have him read it. Having these types of thoughts towards your therapist are very normal, and obviously you have some transferance going on. The key is to be open about it and realize that these feelings can facilitate a stronger therapeutic relationship if you are open. This discussion can lead to your working out your relationship problems with your dad and brother, something that may have not surfaced with a female therapist. I wish you well- Judy
Posted by Shell on February 23, 2001, at 22:59:12
In reply to Woman therapists, pdocs, posted by shellie on February 13, 2001, at 11:14:23
I see a female family doctor for medication and a female social worker. I didn't plan it that way. The doctor was recommended by a friend who is also a patient and liked her. The social worker was assigned to me after my doctor referred me for counseling. I have been very fortunate in finding both of them.
I did once see a male psychologist for a few sessions and I felt just as comfortable with him, though we only talked about OCD issues, none of which were terribly embarassing.
My current and former ob/gyn (switched due to a move) are both men. Again, I saw them based on recommendations of friends and was very comfortable with both.
For me at least, it really seems to depend more on the personality match between me and the doctor/therapist more than the gender.
I have noticed that all of them have been under 40. One is even younger than I am (that was a shock!), and I wonder if that has anything to do with my comfort level. Maybe I have been comfortable with them because they are all relatively close in age to me. I think I may find that less intimidating.
Posted by shar on February 24, 2001, at 1:45:24
In reply to Male......, posted by JennyR on February 23, 2001, at 20:08:38
I have, and probably will in the future, felt jealous of people if my therapist seems to give them "more attention" than I get, or treats them in a different, more supportive way than me. I get angry at her, and sometimes stay angry for awhile, until we can get to a point where I feel she has reaffirmed her love for me as a person.
She doesn't have to love me more than everyone else, just "at least as much."
My therapist says that usually the therapist plays a parental role, so what I would be acting on with her, or fighting about, would be related (to some degree) to my mom, and how that all went growing up. And, it is certainly was true that I never thought my mom paid me enough attention--or any for that matter.
I'm in a group, mostly women, so when I talk about periods, or menopause, or sex, I tell the guys not to listen. I don't really care too much, because I'm in there to work on myself, mostly, so if they are uncomfortable--sorry.
But, the jealousy does not seem unusual to me at all. If I felt that way again with my therapist, I'd tell her, and have to work thru my shame at feeling that way, and maybe have to fight with her, until we could get to a more satisfying place. I trust her more than anyone else in my life, and have been seeing her for a LONG time (individually and in two separate groups--had a break of about 2 years, then went back for marital counseling which turned into divorce counseling).
Shar
Posted by JennyR on February 25, 2001, at 12:03:22
In reply to Jealousy » JennyR, posted by shar on February 24, 2001, at 1:45:24
When you say "until she has re-affirmed her love for me as a person" - do you mean your therapist actually has expressed feelings? It is maddening to me how mine never will. We have a great rapport, always have, and I pick it up in a lot of ways, but he will never, ever express a feeling. Sometimes I try to corner him, he will always wiggle out of it, throw it back on me. That bothers me a lot. On rare occasions he will say something ambiguous implying his good feelings toward me, and when I question it he takes it back, throws back on me my "need" to hear it which I find kind of humiliating. When I've tried to corner him, he's said "I'm not a machine" meaning he has feelings, but won't elaborate. One time he referred to "the good warm feelings between us" and when I questioned it he just kept referring to my "attachment" to him. One time recently he said "because you are appreciated here" which I questioned and then he twisted it and made it that I feel appreciated here, and that became a drawn out several session hassle because he clearly had expressed his feeling, then put it on me, ran away from it, didn't own it. He did finally admit that and I told him he's done it other times and it hurts me. But he will never come out with a feeling of his own without then backing off. It always upsets me because it's like he gives me something and then takes it away. What does yours say when she expresses her feelings?
Posted by shar on February 25, 2001, at 14:28:13
In reply to Re: Jealousy-Shar, posted by JennyR on February 25, 2001, at 12:03:22
If it's love she says "I love you." Rarely off hand, usually when I am talking about my own feelings about her. Such as, I love you, Pat and she says, I know you do, S, and I love you too. She's told me when she has felt sad about something that happened in my life, and when she's felt proud of me, etc.
It's NOT an everyday thing. It's rather rare, but always comfortable and genuine.
However--I've been seeing her for over a decade off and on. And, I've been in therapy off and on for about 25 years (dysthymia is a wondrous thing....). Plus, there is not the strongish boundary issue that a male therapist might feel obligated to maintain, especially if you all are newish in working together. I freely acknowledge my attachment to my therapist, it is there, no doubt about it; in a way I think that's part of what makes me feel safe enough to be open enough to work on things.
However, if I say I am afraid she might abandon me, she is not likely to say "I won't abandon you." She will probably direct me more toward my own feelings about that issue. That type of thing. And I've had other therapists who have had a much more hands off approach when it came to expressing feelings.
Shar
Posted by JennyR on February 25, 2001, at 18:05:21
In reply to Re: Jealousy » JennyR, posted by shar on February 25, 2001, at 14:28:13
Wow, that's amazing to me, that she has said those things. It's been 3 years with my therapist. We "clicked" very well. He has given me positive feedback, but never phrases it as his feelings, like "Good for you" rather than "I'm proud of you." Or he'll say it was really good that I did such and such. So he is supportive, but in a way where it's never him saying it as his feeling. I guess it's his training, because I do feel the warmth and caring, and I know I couldn't have shown all the sides of me I have if there wasn't a strong bond there. But it always does bother me a little that he will never express a feeling toward me. My mother-in-law's therapist says things like yours, and has actually hugged her a number of times (both women). I guess a man does have to be much more careful about misinterpretation, and better to steer clear. I don't want the hugs, just a very occasional expression of his evident good feelings toward me. When we get into hassles about it, I experience him as so withholding. He calls that my pain about feeling need. I think he's too restrained in this way, but otherwise great. His good feelings are only implied in what he says;I want the occasional point blank positive statement of feelings. A couple of times when I've expressed very positive feelings about coming and about what we do and the changes, and I was put off a little by him not reciprocating at all, I said "I don't know what this is like for you, but I can't imagine that touching someone's life the way you have mine doesn't touch you in some way." His answer was "I'm not a machine." I said "what does that mean?" He said "machine?". I said "I know what the words mean, but what are you saying?" He said "I"m not a machine, I have feelings" but would not elaborate and just put it on me about my need to hear it. I hate that. He has said on occasions that I work so hard, that I am courageous, and even (the closest to a feeling) that he enjoys working with me. But that's still different than saying he likes me. One time when we got in a hassle about this (it's happened 3-4 times over the 3 years I said that when he doesn't say this stuff, it makes me kind of doubt things, that he gives the impression of caring, but it might just be good technique, designed to make me spill my guts." He looked genuinely surprised and said "you doubt the caring after all this time?" (it was a year then). But of course he wouldn't just say "I do care." Yet the caring does show through his actions. And one time when I said the lack of his expressing anything positive was hard for me, he said I should judge by his actions. We have a great rapport otherwise. I think he just thinks it's good technique to 100% keep his feelings out of it. Frustrating to me at times, though.
Posted by judy1 on February 25, 2001, at 19:43:45
In reply to Re: Jealousy, posted by JennyR on February 25, 2001, at 18:05:21
Hi Jenny,
I don't know if you read my admission of my unethical relationship with my previous shrink (under 'another episode' thread), but when I read your post I started feeling really nervous. I understand your desire to be told 'I love you, etc from your psychiatrist- but it really is dangerous territory. Mine started with verbal exchanges, then physical. While he made me feel extremely special and loved, all the negative consequences made me wish none of it had ever happened. I hope you appreciate the boundaries he is maintaining with you. Take care- Judy
Posted by kiddo on March 7, 2001, at 21:29:06
In reply to Re: Jealousy, posted by JennyR on February 25, 2001, at 18:05:21
I know this is a late response, but hey, I just showed up :-) Have you ever thrown his words back at him? I remember an incident with my therp/pdoc that was almost word for word to yours. Scary! The difference was "I'm only human" instead of "I'm not a machine". Then tried to throw me off by saying "The real issue here is your need to hear it." as well. My reply? "I'm only human." It has been the only time in my entire therapy that he has shown any kind of reaction. It was actually awesome.
> Wow, that's amazing to me, that she has said those things. It's been 3 years with my therapist. We "clicked" very well. He has given me positive feedback, but never phrases it as his feelings, like "Good for you" rather than "I'm proud of you." Or he'll say it was really good that I did such and such. So he is supportive, but in a way where it's never him saying it as his feeling. I guess it's his training, because I do feel the warmth and caring, and I know I couldn't have shown all the sides of me I have if there wasn't a strong bond there. But it always does bother me a little that he will never express a feeling toward me. My mother-in-law's therapist says things like yours, and has actually hugged her a number of times (both women). I guess a man does have to be much more careful about misinterpretation, and better to steer clear. I don't want the hugs, just a very occasional expression of his evident good feelings toward me. When we get into hassles about it, I experience him as so withholding. He calls that my pain about feeling need. I think he's too restrained in this way, but otherwise great. His good feelings are only implied in what he says;I want the occasional point blank positive statement of feelings. A couple of times when I've expressed very positive feelings about coming and about what we do and the changes, and I was put off a little by him not reciprocating at all, I said "I don't know what this is like for you, but I can't imagine that touching someone's life the way you have mine doesn't touch you in some way." His answer was "I'm not a machine." I said "what does that mean?" He said "machine?". I said "I know what the words mean, but what are you saying?" He said "I"m not a machine, I have feelings" but would not elaborate and just put it on me about my need to hear it. I hate that. He has said on occasions that I work so hard, that I am courageous, and even (the closest to a feeling) that he enjoys working with me. But that's still different than saying he likes me. One time when we got in a hassle about this (it's happened 3-4 times over the 3 years I said that when he doesn't say this stuff, it makes me kind of doubt things, that he gives the impression of caring, but it might just be good technique, designed to make me spill my guts." He looked genuinely surprised and said "you doubt the caring after all this time?" (it was a year then). But of course he wouldn't just say "I do care." Yet the caring does show through his actions. And one time when I said the lack of his expressing anything positive was hard for me, he said I should judge by his actions. We have a great rapport otherwise. I think he just thinks it's good technique to 100% keep his feelings out of it. Frustrating to me at times, though.
Posted by JennyR on March 10, 2001, at 19:53:13
In reply to Re: Jealousy » JennyR, posted by kiddo on March 7, 2001, at 21:29:06
I really like what you did when you said that to him. I'll have to try that next time. Here's another example of how he comes close yet skirts around saying a good feeling. I was telling him about someone in authority I've recently had some positive interactions with even though I expected to be judged harshly by her and I said she seems to really like me. He said "why wouldn't she?" which to me meant he is saying I am likable which would mean that he likes me. But there are three steps there. I have to read between the lines, it's only implied. By the way, I call both my kids "Kiddo."
Posted by ShelliR on March 10, 2001, at 22:24:50
In reply to Re: Jealousy- Kiddo, posted by JennyR on March 10, 2001, at 19:53:13
I've had several therapists throughout my life: some very expressive verbally with feelings (and affection) and the one I have now is not. In the long run I believe it doesn't really make much of a difference. It is nice to be told sometimes; but it is also nice to take in the good feelings that are coming your way and just trust them. It sounds like both you and jenny are more focused on what you're not getting than what you are getting. And in reality, you are getting the feeling that you are cared about and liked. I don't think your self esteem would really go up if it was said verbally. Maybe instead of trying so hard to push your therapists into saying it, you could see it as a gift that doesn't need to be changed, and work on accepting your therapist as well as yourself.
Sometimes I have to remind myself of that with my present therapist. I say--how come therapists a, b, and c always said this about me and you don't. And she says, "because you already know that about yourself." For example, she never says I'm engaging (like all my other therapists), but I make her smile and laugh a lot and I feel her connection to me when I hurt, so I do know that.
And in truth, the little girl in me still wants a mom and dad who really cared about me and protected me. So, no matter how often a therapist would say she liked or loved me, I can never be that child at that age again and be protected. So I see some of the closeness felt in therapy as illusion. I mean I think I will have grown a lot when the attachment is no longer so important to me. At this stage in my life, the cognitive stuff--like how to make my life easier by considering consequences and other things is helping me the most.
Sorry this is so long, but I am sort of working it out as I am writing it. ShelliR
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