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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 8:52:54
I called and told him I had reservations about parking and thought I should probably cancel. Could he call me to discuss it. When he didn't by the evening, I called to say that I had better cancel so I wouldn't be charged. *Then* he called back (saying he was about to do so anyway) and somehow I'm going. I can't say he talked me into it or tried to influence me. He just said that as far as he knew there was no problem, assured me if he discovered there was a problem he would let me know and cancel, and when I said that if worst comes to worst can we have the session in my car agreed cheerfully. This is my irritated question to him whenever I get angry with him for choosing to practice in such a parking deprived area. Neither of us takes it seriously I hope. My car seats are covered with dog hair, and I'm sure he wouldn't want to be covered himself.
I was totally ok with his being gone. I had pretty much forgotten who he was to me. I was looking forward to spending the time and money on something more productive. Yet....
It is rather annoying to me.
Posted by lucie lu on February 23, 2009, at 12:15:46
In reply to What IS it with me?, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 8:52:54
> I called and told him I had reservations about parking and thought I should probably cancel. Could he call me to discuss it. When he didn't by the evening, I called to say that I had better cancel so I wouldn't be charged. *Then* he called back (saying he was about to do so anyway) and somehow I'm going. I can't say he talked me into it or tried to influence me. He just said that as far as he knew there was no problem, assured me if he discovered there was a problem he would let me know and cancel, and when I said that if worst comes to worst can we have the session in my car agreed cheerfully. This is my irritated question to him whenever I get angry with him for choosing to practice in such a parking deprived area. Neither of us takes it seriously I hope. My car seats are covered with dog hair, and I'm sure he wouldn't want to be covered himself.
>
> I was totally ok with his being gone. I had pretty much forgotten who he was to me. I was looking forward to spending the time and money on something more productive. Yet....
>
> It is rather annoying to me.
>
Oh Lord, Dinah, you sound just like me. I spend so much time perched on the fence I feel like a rooster. (Actually more like a chicken.)I too start out feeling very certain in my intent to cancel appts for reasons like these, i.e. the logistical or practical based ones, not the "I don't want to see you"(accompanied by a loud raspberry) ones. But then I think, Lucie, if you really felt so certain then why did you leave a message on his machine saying things like "I *think* I should cancel" or even "call me so we can talk about it."
Ugh. Impaled on the fence again.
Happy Lundi Gras!
Lucie
Posted by DAisym on February 23, 2009, at 17:58:16
In reply to What IS it with me?, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 8:52:54
I have long said that therapy is addictive.
Not in a "bad" way but in the sense that we have a chemical response to the soothing energy we get from our therapist. Or, in some cases, we get to discharge pent up anxiety and emotion and need that release. No matter what happens when you go, you need to go.
Especially when you know you can. Kind of like having chocolate cake in the kitchen. It would be OK to skip dessert if you didn't have it, but knowing it is there means we eat it.
I'm struggling again with the whole "open up and close down" spiral. It seems harder to get open and harder to get closed. So I resist opening. But I, like you, get caught on that fence when I begin to waffle about going. I've come to know, most of the time, that I'm choosing it for myself so it is OK that I "cave" and go.
I hope it worked out OK.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 19:14:01
In reply to Re: What IS it with me?, posted by DAisym on February 23, 2009, at 17:58:16
The wretch was right. Traffic was light, and parking was no trouble at all.
Mostly I brought him up to date on happenings. Including happenings that happened before he left but that I never got around to telling him.
And I finally brought him the list of favorite and least favorite phrases.
We talked about the fact that I did just fine when he was gone. And that I forgot who he was to me. I asked if he thought I was ready to reduce therapy, and after the usual "well, what do you think?"'s were over, he admitted that he didn't think so. That like I always said, twice a week therapy wasn't once a week therapy twice a week. And that what he'd discovered was helpful to me relied on the twice a week therapy experience and my retaining that relationship and bond with him, which I wasn't able to do during his absence.
I asked him if he was perhaps biased in the matter, and he was wise enough to answer that perhaps he was, because he did enjoy our sessions. :)
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 19:15:21
In reply to Re: What IS it with me? - Daisy + Lucie, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 19:14:01
I left not feeling connected still. It's amazing how much disruption there can be in only a week's absence. Although I'm also aware he'll be going away in March for at least part of a week.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 19:46:40
In reply to Re: What IS it with me? - Daisy + Lucie, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 19:15:21
The March thing makes it tougher to reconnect. I know how that works from personal experience. But you and I both also know that the connection is really still there and it will be there when you're ready for it.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 20:52:37
In reply to Re: What IS it with me? - Daisy + Lucie » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 19:46:40
I'm sure it is. And when I feel safe to feel again, I'll experience it.
Part of me wonders though, if it's worth it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 21:13:46
In reply to Re: What IS it with me? - Daisy + Lucie » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 20:52:37
Definitely with you on that one. As my T would put it, I guess that's our "growing edge." Whatever.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 23:00:44
In reply to Re: What IS it with me? - Daisy + Lucie » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 21:13:46
"growing edge"?
I haven't heard that expression before. What does she mean by it?
Posted by Phillipa on February 23, 2009, at 23:23:30
In reply to Re: What IS it with me? » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 23:00:44
I don't know but glad you got the parking space. I think you and your T are a great match btw. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 0:00:40
In reply to Re: What IS it with me? » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on February 23, 2009, at 23:23:30
Thanks!
I agree. We are a great match, or we've managed to build one.
It's rather amazing given how little we have in common, how different we are, and the less than spectacular start we got off to. Not to mention how flawed we both are.
But he's so even keeled. And he manages to maintain a good sense of humor, and a pronounced tolerance for the foibles of others. I think that's so necessary in a relationship with me.
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 0:26:19
In reply to Re: What IS it with me? » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 0:00:40
I referred to my "soothing" voice today with enough amusement and obvious quotation marks that he went ahead and used "somewhat flat" instead.
And at the end of the session, I asked if he had missed me. He hemmed and hawed and said that he missed being here in the office and of course he missed seeing me, and his clients. Then he added with more genuineness that he was happy to see me today and was glad I had decided to come.
I laughed that I could tell when he was lying, and that he was happy to see me today, but he didn't miss me at all last week. He was so flustered he almost forgot to tell me to call if I needed to.
:)
Perhaps I ought to let him be polite sometimes.
But frankness is somehow more appealing to me. Probably because I'm that secure with him. Certainly I'm not in favor of wanton frankness.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 9:06:57
In reply to I am such a trial to him...., posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 0:26:19
Dinah,
Why did you ask that sort of question? It seems like it is setting him up for failure or something...
Seems like you have shaking in his shoes in order not to offend you, or say anything wrong..
Like he even HAS to say that you can call him if you need to...
Seems like a lot of control you have over him, I just wonder how authentic he can be with you, if he has to walk on egg shells?
I feel if you are THAT comfortable with him, you would allow him to say and do what is natural and comfortable with him, without so many expectations.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 9:26:17
In reply to Re: I am such a trial to him...., posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 9:06:57
I think I need to go away from these boards, I can't control what is coming out of my mouth today.
Sorry Dinah
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 9:36:10
In reply to Sorry, I don't mean to be hurtful and blunt., posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 9:26:17
It wasn't hurtful to me.
My relationship with him is far too secure for that.
It may not come across in writing how it is in person, but in person he is as amused and fond of the closing procedure as I am. If you could see the fond amusement in his eyes, it would never occur to you that I'm exerting control, except in the sense of asking for what I feel I need, and his choosing to give it freely, because he knows that ritual is important to me.
It would like calling your child controlling if you had a ritual for putting him to bed or sending him off to school, and you forgot it one night and he reminded you.
And had it not been the end of session, he'd have laughed at my semi-psychicness and acknowledged that he'd been far too busy to miss me, but that now he's back he's glad to see me. Where I put him on the spot was asking if he'd missed me when I was reasonably sure I hadn't crossed his mind at all, and when I had already admitted that I hadn't missed him.
:)
I think it's hard to convey the tone of our sessions. It's grown to be very comfy like two old pairs of slippers with bulges where the toes go. I think he's as comfortable with the dadddy/daughter dynamics as I am.
But that doesn't mean I'm not a trial to him.
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 10:29:41
In reply to Re: I am such a trial to him...., posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 9:06:57
> I just wonder how authentic he can be with you, if he has to walk on egg shells?
I must *really* express myself badly though, if I gave that impression. At one time in our relationship he learned not to say things in certain ways because it diverted attention from the discussion he was trying to have, into my feeling hurt. But our current discussions revolve around the fact that that is no longer necessary.
Now I'm secure that he cares about me, he can really say *anything* to me. My voice is flat, he can't deal with me right now, he's bored on occasion. What is said with love is never offensive to me, given that I am sure of the love.
And I *am* sure of that love. There was a time when he didn't much like me, and I knew that too. But at this point of our relationship he does love me, and like me. It permeates the air. It's not improper, and I understand fully the limits of it. But it *is* love, even if it is bound by the same rules that allow it to exist. He doesn't love me as a lover, or even as a friend. But he does love me as a client. He feels safe to feel love for me, because he knows that I'll never mistake it for anything more than what it is.
He visibly relaxes when he sits down and smiles at me. We address serious issues, but nearly always with humor and warmth. He has even taught me to be ok with occasional irritation or anger on his part, and to be secure in knowing that we'll be ok anyway.
The only thing he never relaxes enough to accidentally say is something that would bring down my disapproval on his head for reasons of propriety and professional obligation. I talk about Babble enough for him to know that I would never take that well. And that I'd be likely to repeat it here. :)
Not that he'd be likely to do anything unethical, no matter how relaxed he felt with me. That's part of why I always always trusted him. His boundaries are always ironclad where they count.
Posted by twinleaf on February 24, 2009, at 18:30:24
In reply to What IS it with me?, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 8:52:54
For quite a few months, I have been having the same reaction that Happy did. When I compare my own experiences in therapy, it always appears to me that you have a lot more control in your therapy than I have ever had in mine. For example, if I called to leave an ambivalent message ("don't call me back, but..."), or if I asked for a certain statement at the end of the hour ("it will be O.K."), or said that certain topics were off-limits, such as sexual feelings or anger between the two of you, my therapist would not do any of the things I asked for. Instead, he would want to know why I said such a thing. He would expect me to express my thoughts and feelings as fully as possible to find out why I needed these things, why I needed to avoid things, etc., etc. Without exception, he feels that the feelings and experiences I least want to talk about are the ones it's most important that I do talk about.
I felt sad to learn that you did not have "object constancy" during his recent week-long absence. Missing him would have been so natural, but forgetting who he was to you did seem sad after so many years together. I guess, like Happy, I have been getting the impression recently that you, rather than the two of you, control the sessions, so that whatever you want to avoid will in fact be avoided. I would not want a relationship that was as comfortable as an old shoe- the ones that are unpredictable, anxious, angry, joyous. loving, hateful, peaceful- and then all of it all over again- the ones which are really hard work, and require the utmost from both participants- seem to be the ones that make me feel that I am really changing.
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 18:49:56
In reply to it's a bit puzzling... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on February 24, 2009, at 18:30:24
Well, we're all different. My therapist isn't an analyst you know, and doesn't really do the analyst sort of thing.
We've worked hard to get to this point. Very hard. There's been a lot of stuff along the way that wasn't at all comfy. A quick look at the archives would show the angst and pain. I'm not going to apologize for making it through to the other side. It may not be where everyone wants to end up, but it's working for us.
I don't control anything. I ask for what I want. He might say yes or he might say no. I might accept his yes or no, or I might negotiate. We do lots of negotiations. He would be aghast if I didn't feel able to ask for what I want. He would be totally opposed to withholding it for the sake of withholding it or of exploring what I wanted it for. And I know him well enough, and am pragmatic enough, that what I ask for generally isn't anything that he's unwilling or unable to give.
It's a different stage of a relationship. And a different type of relationship than one might have with an analyst. But it suits us.
I always wanted to be a Jessica to him, and now I feel confident that I am. I am content and happy in our relationship.
If others see that as my controlling him... Well, people can think what they wish.
I believe it is literally impossible for me to feel anxious or uncertain about our relationship.
He'll hurt me one day, no doubt about it. If I am confident in what our relationship is, I'm also accepting of what it isn't and will never be. He does care about me, but he's very resilient to the point of buoyancy. If it suits his purposes he will move or retire and he will be sorry to hurt me, but he will if he needs to. And he'll get over it relatively quickly.
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 19:11:07
In reply to it's a bit puzzling... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on February 24, 2009, at 18:30:24
More specifically...
> For quite a few months, I have been having the same reaction that Happy did. When I compare my own experiences in therapy, it always appears to me that you have a lot more control in your therapy than I have ever had in mine.
I'm sure that is true. My therapist says it's my therapy and my responsibility, and wishes me to have as much control as possible. It's his way to step adroitly aside when I push, and allow me to stumble forward, as I always say. Or more specifically to allow me, in absence of opposition, to acknowledge myself what he didn't say.
> For example, if I called to leave an ambivalent message ("don't call me back, but..."),
Well, it would only be ambivalent if I weren't open about it. Since I discussed my reasons for doing it, my fears, and the fact that I was aware that I was playing games with him that I did not want to play, I don't see it as ambivalent in any way. Fully examined in fact. He considered the matter and decided that it was likely best for me to continue to do that. That was his choice. Had he wished me to stop, I would have.
> or if I asked for a certain statement at the end of the hour ("it will be O.K."),
We had many negotiations on that and discussed it in great detail. He was very particular in what he would agree to say or mean by "It will be o.k." He only means that *we* will be ok, and that whatever happens, we'll work on it together.
> or said that certain topics were off-limits, such as sexual feelings or anger between the two of you, my therapist would not do any of the things I asked for.
Nothing is ever off limits between us. Even if it is brought up as "i would never say...." it is in fact being said. It is just being said with humor and respect. He is quite open about anger between us. And in my old age, so am I. There are no sexual feelings between us, but we have in fact discussed the matter. He says he has never ever been aroused in my presence and can't imagine that he ever would be. And he is aware that I often experience physical arousal when I am anxious, and that includes in therapy. I've told him of the dream where his wife told me he was a eunuch, and the dream where I held his limp penis in my mouth, in a gesture of absolute love. (Which was incidentally about my feelings that he was impotent at the time, not about sex at all). That seems pretty explicit to me. I'm not sure where anyone would get the idea that anything was off limits. Even termination has been discussed completely, given the realities of our situation over time. I can't imagine more raw honesty than has been between us.
If I don't want to talk about something, my therapist easily says that it's entirely up to me and it's ok for me to talk about or not talk about whatever I wish. At which time I am impatient at his willingness to avoid the topic and discuss it thoroughly.
I have changed. And I have changed because of therapy and because of him. Like a river and the rock. He's not likely to take a hammer and chisel and shape me as he wishes. But over time the interaction of water on stone shapes the stone.
Posted by garnet71 on February 24, 2009, at 23:28:49
In reply to Re: I am such a trial to him...., posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 10:29:41
"I must *really* express myself badly though, if I gave that impression."
------------------------
Dinah, I just have to say, while the thought is on my mind...I've read quite a few of your posts..and I think you have a pretty damn good head on your shoulders.
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 23:43:08
In reply to Re: I am such a trial to him.... » Dinah, posted by garnet71 on February 24, 2009, at 23:28:49
:)
Thank you.
Posted by backseatdriver on February 25, 2009, at 11:11:12
In reply to Re: it's a bit puzzling... - Sex trigger » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 19:11:07
> Like a river and the rock.
I love this. Just wanted to say.
BSD.
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 15:29:43
In reply to Re: it's a bit puzzling... - Sex trigger » Dinah, posted by backseatdriver on February 25, 2009, at 11:11:12
:)
That's what I gave him for our anniversary last year. A small river pebble.
Posted by workinprogress on February 26, 2009, at 0:29:54
In reply to Re: it's a bit puzzling..., posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 18:49:56
Dinah-
First off I want to say thank you for your contribution to this board. I appreciate hearing your thoughts on a variety of topics. Second, I am so impressed with the grace with which you have handled people challenging you and a relationship that you have worked really hard on and that seems to mean quite a bit to you (even if you do forget who he is to you). Obviously what you say is true, you feel very solid in the connection and the work you did to get there. And your sense of self about it is solidly in place. All so impressive! I can only hope.
On the topic at hand... I would say it seems to me that you and your therapist have crossed into another developmental stage, that old shoe comfortable WHOLLY being yourselves with each other - including "hard" emotions, challenging each other, being HONEST, etc. It seems to me that the experience you describe is so very foreign to many of us that maybe it seems like it isn't "doing the job". If he isn't pushing your buttons you must not be moving sort of thing. I dunno... just a thought. I think your relationship is what I for one am striving for and it's a model for relationship IRL right? To be able to be fully yourself with someone and to feel accepted and honored for that... Doesn't mean there isn't still work to do, but it seems to me you've accomplished the big one here. I hope it continues to grow for you...
> Well, we're all different. My therapist isn't an analyst you know, and doesn't really do the analyst sort of thing.
>
> We've worked hard to get to this point. Very hard. There's been a lot of stuff along the way that wasn't at all comfy. A quick look at the archives would show the angst and pain. I'm not going to apologize for making it through to the other side. It may not be where everyone wants to end up, but it's working for us.
>
> I don't control anything. I ask for what I want. He might say yes or he might say no. I might accept his yes or no, or I might negotiate. We do lots of negotiations. He would be aghast if I didn't feel able to ask for what I want. He would be totally opposed to withholding it for the sake of withholding it or of exploring what I wanted it for. And I know him well enough, and am pragmatic enough, that what I ask for generally isn't anything that he's unwilling or unable to give.
>
> It's a different stage of a relationship. And a different type of relationship than one might have with an analyst. But it suits us.
>
> I always wanted to be a Jessica to him, and now I feel confident that I am. I am content and happy in our relationship.
>
> If others see that as my controlling him... Well, people can think what they wish.
>
> I believe it is literally impossible for me to feel anxious or uncertain about our relationship.
>
> He'll hurt me one day, no doubt about it. If I am confident in what our relationship is, I'm also accepting of what it isn't and will never be. He does care about me, but he's very resilient to the point of buoyancy. If it suits his purposes he will move or retire and he will be sorry to hurt me, but he will if he needs to. And he'll get over it relatively quickly.
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2009, at 15:00:33
In reply to Re: it's a bit puzzling... » Dinah, posted by workinprogress on February 26, 2009, at 0:29:54
Well, I'm feeling a bit more attached now. :) This thread has been great for that.
I'm so grateful to have the relationship we have. I really do know that if he wasn't who he was, I could have put in all the hard work, without the same result.
There's lots of room left to work. And some stuff is hard wired. It's not going to go away no matter what. We just work differently now.
Not that I won't be hurt or angry sometimes. It's part of the human condition. But now I really do believe that we will be ok. Within reason of course.
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