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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Nadezda on November 23, 2008, at 17:04:57
The thing is I keep expecting him to go back to the way he was during the first four or five years I saw him-- and even after that-- which was very caring and kind, and responsive. It's as if I have this image of him that's almost impervious to his current attitude and actions.
I don't know how to reconcile the two ways he's been with me. I remember when everything changed-- about two years ago, after I'd been struggling with this sense that I couldn't be available for my bf (we've been together for a long time) during the illness and death of his brother, who had had many long-term difficulties and who was for a long time really almost out of his mind with depression and anxieties (unacknowledged) and addiction to various pain-killers.
I remember very clearly that I had gone to my bf's hometown (where my mother also lives) and had, I think, made a difference in both my bf's and his brother's final ability to say goodby in a meaningful way, and also to support my bf in trying to support his brother and mother at this time. It was in many ways a terrible emotional experience, and also very draining, despite my feeling basically good about my actions and commitment. I also had many concerns about the many nights and days when I wavered and felt that I couldn't stand another minute of the whole thing and wanted to get away. And I also felt that I couldn't do this sort of thing very often and that it had really felt like too much.
These feelings had been tangled up in the experience, and had threaded through it and had made me falter and feel angry and often even angry at myself for not being more steadfast. and they made me wonder if I could this follow up and could live up to expectations that I might have created.
I had also had some very discouraging encounters with my mother, which were intensified by my not having seen her for a long time, and having the wish for a good reconciliation, especially since I was on anti-depressants for the first time that we were together, and also had seemed to make progress emotionally.
So in many ways this accomplishment was qualified and made less satisfying by things that had happened and that I had felt. So while I felt generally good myself, I felt many many doubts and was also emotionally drained and in some ways frightened by things that had happened.
My therapist seemed very angry that I wasn't simply proud of myself and didn't come back in some mood of wanting to enjoy the moment. But I really didn't feel much enjoyment-- which is not to say that what I had done had no meaning or was worthless, but that it was momentarily overshadowed by the upsetting aftereffects of the whole thing.
Everything has seemed to spiral downward in a very drastic way-- and each turn of the spiral has led to worse and worse confrontations about my lack of progress and my undermining everything I do, and thwarting any progress that I might make. All this apparently, on his account, to prove that my life is ruined, so everyone will have to take care of me, and my parents will be at fault for whatever they did-- which he now has begun to dispute that they did-- and I will have no expectations placed on me to do anything, act responsibly.
On one hand, this seems completely misplaced and rings hollow to me. I do have a tendency to have mood swings from one level to another of depression and anxiety, and at the lesser levels to make progress that I then can't follow through on when the bad feelings intensify. But it doesn't feel to me like some kind of motivated and insisted upon bad mood-- as if I could make progress unremittingly and only out of spite undermine it with bad moods that I could easily avoid, and which, therefore, are pretextual.
But my T repeats this theme over and over, along with various pejorative descriptions of me, and my motivations, and my self-indulgence of any whim or feeling.
anyway I have to stop writing, but what I've written is awfully long anyway-- much much too long-- for which I apologize to anyone who's gotten this far. I had some things I don't understand that I wanted to say, but I'll have to add them later. I'm already behind schedule. It's just very confusing to me, and I wonder if I'm exaggerating his anger and criticism of me-- and if the things he's saying sound and are as bad as they seem to me. I'm often very sensitive to anything that sounds critical or rejecting and extremely hurt by things that apparently aren't meant to be hurtful. But his tone and the specific words he uses just seem so inherently critical that I can't understand what else to make of them. I wonder, also, if anyone has had a T say things like this about them-- and what they did, if it happened.
Nadezda
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 23, 2008, at 18:52:27
In reply to My T, posted by Nadezda on November 23, 2008, at 17:04:57
Hmmmm,
Well, this is not the first time that you've been telling us these things, so it doesn't seem like this is some capricious interpretation of the latest session gone awry.Is your T's name Yalom, by any chance?
It seems to me that your T (whatever his name) is somewhat narcissistic. He expects that his therapy would magically culminate in some transformative experience (the return to the scene of the crime, as it were), and that you would emerge untarnished, healed, and epiphanical (ha! made THAT word up!). Of course, the way your T imagined this experience, and the way you actually LIVED through it are at odds. He thinks you should be giving yourself more credit. Right. okay. So, in order to communicate that to you, he makes you feel less worthy. hmmm. Does THAT make sense?
I know that you've been thinking about this stuff for a while, but perhaps time to audition a new T? Obviously there's still work to be done ("some fine tuning" as my T would say), and he doesn't seem up to the task. Has he given up on you? That seems terribly unfair, and unhelpful, and GOD! doesn't he KNOW you?
Again, I'm not sure that this is YOUR problem, but rather reflects on his point of view as a therapist.
-Ll
Posted by JoniS on November 23, 2008, at 22:57:11
In reply to My T, posted by Nadezda on November 23, 2008, at 17:04:57
Nadezeda,
I thought your post was sad. If my t relationship had gotten to that point I would be looking for a new t. I know thats easier said than done. I may be heading that way myself.
Take care of you.
Joni
Posted by Dinah on November 24, 2008, at 13:10:00
In reply to My T, posted by Nadezda on November 23, 2008, at 17:04:57
It's not easy to leave someone you love. I know how much he's meant to you.
But to be totally honest, as you present him, if he wants you to express your pride in yourself, one good way would be to refuse to be treated as he's currently treating you. If that means leaving, it's very sad, but it's because of him.
I'm often struck by how similar therapy seems like a marriage. What I'm hearing sounds like a marriage that was terrific for a while, but has turned rather abusive. It's a difficult situation.
I totally respect any decision that seems best for you at this time. But I think you're worth better treatment than he's giving you. Way better.
Posted by Phillipa on November 24, 2008, at 13:23:47
In reply to Re: My T » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on November 24, 2008, at 13:10:00
Dinah seriously by that last post does that mean a woman should have a man and maybe that is why my T's haven't worked out as women? I'm serious? Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on November 24, 2008, at 13:30:34
In reply to Re: My T » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on November 24, 2008, at 13:23:47
No, I didn't mean it that way. Just that it's a long term relationship where two people with their own histories and characteristics struggle to stay connected. The relationship develops a cadence and rhythm. Like my therapy relationship has that comfy old slipper quality.
It could be either a man or a woman. I think men suit me better, but for other people women suit better. Whatever works.
Posted by lucie lu on November 24, 2008, at 16:23:18
In reply to My T, posted by Nadezda on November 23, 2008, at 17:04:57
Nadezda,
I too felt many of the same things as other posters have described in reaction to your post. It is very sad, seemingly an example, as Dinah suggested, of a once-happy "marriage" grown dysfunctional. As I was reading, the word "narcissist" floated through my mind too, with respect to your T, so I wasn't surprised when Llurpsie said the same thing. It does seem that he's lost touch with you as a patient, maybe confusing you with your case, which he has been working on for so long. Perhaps your therapy with him has taken some form of enactment, where he enacts the sadist and you the masochist; although here I am admittedly talking through my hat because I am hardly a qualified psych technician. But in all of these variants, the therapy seems to have become a lot more about him than it should be - and it should *all* be about you. I know I reacted to an earlier thread of yours, suggesting that you "dump him." I'm sorry to have been so insensitive, and I apologize for that. I have a tendency to react strongly when I feel people are being mistreated or hurt in some way. I do recognize the pain in ending such a relationship, the sense of loss especially if the relationship in the early days was good. But Nadezda, I really have to agree with the others that he should not be treating you this way. It really is abusive. You must recognize this on some level or you wouldn't be writing, again, about it and in similar terms as before. As you describe it (and even without an advanced psych degree), the relationship seems to have taken on a decidedly S/M character with him as the abuser and you as the bewildered, sad, hurt child trying to hang in there and just accept what is being done to you. Try to look at that dynamic and see if it really serves you well in any respect. I can't see how it could. I know from your posts that you are an intelligent, insightful, compassionate woman, you are not that child. And no, I don't think other people's Ts act this way (at least none that I know of that haven't been fired by the client); mine certainly doesn't. At the very least, you are paying your T very good money to do good things for you, not bad - to be your advocate and to help build you up, not denigrate you. Unless you are reaching new heights of personal success, which you don't seem to be, then his current approach, if you prefer to see it that way, simply isn't working.
This is no more than my 2 cents, but FWIW I do hate to see this happening, Nadezda. Again, I hope I am not being insensitive.
All the best,
Lucie
Posted by Nadezda on November 24, 2008, at 23:03:06
In reply to Re: My T » Nadezda, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 23, 2008, at 18:52:27
Hi Llurpsie.
No, he's not named Yalom. :) ( I think) I can't say I would ever be tempted to see the author of Yalom's books--
But even though I'm considering ending the therapy with him, today (as opposed to yesterday and probably tomorrow) I feel that can't leave without making sure there isn't something I've overlooked, or there isn't any way that what he's doing makes sense, or could be constructive.
I often feel some of these feelings-- even t hough I think he's wrong about what they mean, or where they come from. I just don't know--
I have to come to a place where I'm fairly sure that I'm doing the right thing, not getting hopeless when things get more difficult, because I don't feel able to conquer the difficulties.
Not that I should stay, if it's only hanging on at any cost.
I'm moving closer myself to thinking there isn't any way out, and on many days think it isn't worth it any more to go through this-- and that it's starting to erode some of the progress I've made--
It would be a huge decision.
But it does help to know that people see it this way-- even though some days I feel as if it's one of these hidden image puzzles, where I just can't see the image among all the chaotic lines.
Thanks for giving me your response.
Nadezda
Posted by Nadezda on November 24, 2008, at 23:09:31
In reply to Re: My T » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on November 24, 2008, at 13:10:00
I guess everything you say seems true to me, but you're right-- I do need to be more sure-- at least that' s how I feel tonight. Not yesterday night, or all weekend, but at least this moment. I'm not quite ready-- although maybe I will be. It's still a very saddening prospect, but one I can't ignore.
If he can't change how he treats me-- soon-- or if I can't somehow meet him somewhere where we have some rapport, or at least mutual understanding of what we're doing-- I'm sure it will soon be impossible.
I just never thought it would come to this. But maybe it will just end because I'll stop going. I've cancelled so many times recently because I don't feel that it will be productive-- or that I can face his disapproval and comments.
But if I can't trust him and feel that he can hear me-- or even wants to hear me-- if I can't recover that trust-- then it is useless to drag myself onward.
It is a frightening thought.
Thanks a lot for your words.
Nadezda
Posted by Wittgensteinz on November 25, 2008, at 13:50:46
In reply to Re: My T » llurpsienoodle, posted by Nadezda on November 24, 2008, at 23:03:06
Nadezda,
I really feel for you. This sounds such a sad situation. You've seen and experienced how the relationship can be healing and nurturing - and now it seems to have changed. I think the fact you experience a change is important to look at.
In your reply to Llurpsie, you pick up on a number of things that happen to have been going through my head a lot lately too. This question of - how much of it is *him* and his actions and how much of it is you and your transference? Is it your perceiving him as being X and if so why the change in the way you perceive/feel about him - OR - is it him behaving differently - an enactment perhaps - or is it a bit of both? The benefits of a long-term secure therapeutic attachment are obvious, but it brings with it the risk of an emotional enmeshment that is difficult to remove oneself from if things do or have turned sour. How to know when enough is enough or to continue and work through whatever phase this is? Have you experienced other times like this during your years with him in therapy - how did they resolve? Does he recognise that things have changed/moved on? Is this completely new? What answers does he have to offer in regards to the way he is making you feel? Does he take a responsibility in it? Is he open to this discussion? Or do you feel cut off and alone with it?
Maybe there is no way to 'know' why and what - it's just something you have to trust your instincts with whether or not enough is enough and time to move on. In any case, this doesn't sound like a snap reaction or rushed thinking on your part - I'm sorry you are facing this dilemma. I hope your T can in one way or the other bring clarity to the situation. Of course ideally I hope things resolve and you can both move on to better, more therapeutic times - that something 'clicks' - now that would be nice!
I'm sorry you're feeling pushed and pulled - both by the situation and through the pressure your T seems to be placing you under in regards to pride.
Witti
Posted by Sigismund on November 25, 2008, at 15:25:20
In reply to Re: My T » Nadezda, posted by Wittgensteinz on November 25, 2008, at 13:50:46
If your T is accurate about you in these sessions, Nadezda, then you must be very different in therapy to how you are here, though that would not greatly surprise me.
We can be very different in different situations.
But if that is the case, the relationship is not bringing out the best in you, although maybe it is not intended to.If I was his patient I would want to talk about how he feels about therapeutic failure.
I went through difficult periods of therapy I certainly didn't understand.....taken over by an outside power and lost all freedom of action.
I dunno where it all came from, though control was an issue.It's nothing like that, is it?
When you are in therapy in these difficult sessions, do you feel different to how you appear here?
I'm struck by the discrepancy, wherever it is.
This is the end of the thread.
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