![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 7, 2008, at 13:35:47
And I laughed hysterically.
So, I started the session off right away by asking him "Why, in the past 6 weeks have you abruptly changed the subject to my sex life, 4 times?, when I wasn't really on that topic?"
He looked thoughtful and said that he hadn't realized that he was doing that. He joked that he needed to go to his analyst and figure out why, but that basically, he knew that it was something worth talking about, and knew that I would probably avoid it at all costs. Fair enough. I did get him thinking about his own process though. That was interesting...
Later in the session, I was telling him that I was concerned how I was going to hold up later this month when my h goes away for 20 days on business trip. He sounded confident that I'd be okay. Hmmm. That's not MY recollection of how h's previous absences have affected me. I started whining about how I'd have to do my own laundry and cook for only me, and empty the cats' litter box, all things which h does by himself, usually.
"Is emptying the litter box SO bad?" he asked.
"Well, I guess not, it takes a few minutes and I gag a few times, and then it's over with"
he started chuckling. "Hmm, kind of like sex?" And then he started laughing hysterically. I had to laugh too. He apologized several times for his sick sense of humor. I think that it was so appalling that it was farcical. There was no point in becoming indignant, since he was making fun of my litter-box attitude, not my sex attitude.
This reminded me of the time, many months ago, that he suggested that I carry a gun (was he joking???) because I feel unsafe walking alone at night. I reminded him that I was kind of suicidal. He stammered.
And then there was the time when he was joking about throwing oneself off the bridge. I actually hadn't considered this before, and thanked him sincerely for the idea. He got really embarrassed about that for a long time, and apologized for many months. I think this latest gaffe might be at least that extreme.
He brings out the witty in me, but unfortunately I seem to be bringing out the sick sense of humor in him. WTF?!? I would ask him to be more considerate, but then I would miss out on these valuable teasing opportunities. It's important to have reasons NOT to idealize my therapist. I appreciate his authenticity, but the litter-box joke was OUT of line. Again, I would be totally appalled, except that it cracked me up for several minutes.
Oh well, if you can't laugh about things, you could be crying....
-Ll
Posted by sassyfrancesca on November 7, 2008, at 13:57:40
In reply to My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by llurpsienoodle on November 7, 2008, at 13:35:47
Unfortunately or fortunately, my t is so much like me it is scary.....we do a lot of banter and joking......He asked how long had we been together. I said, "too long."
I cannot resist tweaking him..
He has said and DONE some sexually provocative things, but that's another story.
I'm about ready to go round the bend after being celibate for over 3 years.
I told him I wanted to talk about it, because I love nostalgia; he cracked up.
In the end; they are human!
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by rskontos on November 7, 2008, at 17:40:33
In reply to My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by llurpsienoodle on November 7, 2008, at 13:35:47
Ll,
I am just not sure what I would do. Early in my therapy my t started to tell me a bit about something I am still not sure what he meant, it was not meant to be sexual but it scared me and I told him by email how it made me feel. He apologized and never when that route again. I don't think I could ever handle an inappropriate joke from him. From my T. Now I am used it from men in general. Especially when I worked at various jobs and I was adept at sidestepping them then. But from my T who is suppose to make me feel safe, I would run so fast and so far away.
I am glad you can laugh. I would cry.
But you are right. It is better to laugh.
I hope you are ok.
rsk
Posted by Sigismund on November 7, 2008, at 19:41:10
In reply to My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by llurpsienoodle on November 7, 2008, at 13:35:47
He certainly has a dry sense of humour.
I'd wonder about it, and whether his sense of humour might be valuable to you in ways I'm not aware of??
It makes me think of the conversations I have with my psych. I do my number on how appalling and ethically bankrupt the world is, and he agrees and adds lots lots more, mainly about criminals and psychopaths in high places and the dodgy nature of consciousness. Then I say that I want to kill myself out of embarrassment over being part of the human species, and he says 'Oh no, I think it's fascinating.' Which leaves me thinking.
Posted by Sigismund on November 7, 2008, at 19:48:50
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by Sigismund on November 7, 2008, at 19:41:10
Which is to say he shows me a possible way of coping with difficult perceptions and feelings.
Lurps, could you say something the same of your shrink's jokes?
Posted by Racer on November 7, 2008, at 20:57:30
In reply to My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by llurpsienoodle on November 7, 2008, at 13:35:47
I can certainly see how that would be upsetting. And I agree that one may as well laugh...
Really, though, it reminded me of a similar comment my (female) T made:
We were discussing the disintegration of my marriage, and the lack of sex, and I finally just described what it was like when we had had sex. She got That Look on her face and -- cross my heart, these were her exact words (only without the asterisk) -- "That sounds like f***ing a dead fish!"
I laughed harder than I thought I could ever laugh in her office, and she joined me.
It's easier, I think, to laugh over that sort of thing with a woman. And she's often quite funny, sometimes in less conservative ways...
Posted by Bobby on November 7, 2008, at 21:59:06
In reply to My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by llurpsienoodle on November 7, 2008, at 13:35:47
By chance---does your therapist go by the name of manic666? I'm sorry you found it hurtful---but perhaps he just feels comfortable enough with you to let down his guard --to be on that level. I certainly possess no skills to discern beyond just being a male trying to read objectively. As long as it doesn't progress towards being suggestive-it wouldn't bother me. But women, especially those who have been victims of abuse and/or those who feel vulnerable, are particularly sensitive to anything that remotely puts their emotions at risk. If it continues to make you uncomfortable after due thought--you bet I'd tell him. It's your mental health on the table--not his. As long as he's being paid for his services--he should conduct himself in a manner that becomes his profession. I should shut up! I know there's a reason I don't post here on psychology--I'm frightened by the prospect that someone will be influenced by the ramblings of a madman! Good luck--that's what I should have said. :)
Posted by DAisym on November 7, 2008, at 22:30:05
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by Bobby on November 7, 2008, at 21:59:06
OMG Lurpsie - I haven't read all the replies but I did laugh. What else was there to do really, as you said? It strikes me that it is a compliment in so many ways that he expresses this dry humor with you. I'm sure he wouldn't be so candid with someone he didn't think would get it. So it was inappropriate but it was also very quick witted.
Earlier this week we were talking about sex and how upsetting "surprises" could be in that realm for me. I was describing something specific and he said (completely seriously), "that must have been so hard for you to take in." OK - so I came to a dead stop and looked at him and he realized what he'd said. He started to stammer, and I started to laugh and he finally just said, "oh hell, you know what I meant."
:) Sometimes it is fun to watch them squirm a bit.
Posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 7:51:48
In reply to My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by llurpsienoodle on November 7, 2008, at 13:35:47
THe litter box joke was out of line, but I have to admit, it would have cracked me up as well. I laughed when I read it.
I think there is a lot of good in levity in therapy, but sometimes you need to talk about it. It helps to take the edge off some pretty intense feelings and relieves the drama of therapy.
Seldom.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:05:14
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by sassyfrancesca on November 7, 2008, at 13:57:40
Hey Sassy--
I sometimes wonder how I would interpret these things if I did have a more seductive relationship with him. For now, I guard my personal boundaries like a zealot.Yesterday I was scheduling some sessions, and some of them are at his professional office and some of them are at his office suite in his home. The amusing thing is that both offices are furnished almost identically, except that the prof office has much more clutter. I remarked that his home office was somewhat smaller and he caught on right away and said "oh, well I can wear my white coat... or put up a screen" I'm not sure whether that would make me feel more or less uncomfortable. Bottom line is that there are older men out there in the world, and as a member of the human species, I had better learn to tolerate a certain amount of emotional intimacy. It's hard enough to open up to someone about this stuff, but at least there is some relief by making light of it.
thanks for hugs... if you were a 60-something male, I might shirk away, but, I'm working on that.
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:12:37
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by rskontos on November 7, 2008, at 17:40:33
Hi Rsk,
thank you for your perspective. I can certainly identify with THAT. I think I would have been very very upset if I perceived his comments as undermining the safety of therapy. Oddly, I felt better after yesterday's session than I have in weeks. For the past 5-6 weeks I have left my sessions thinking "I'm a loser"-- and thinking of the various flaws and things that I still have to work on and master. I think I was feeling powerless. But since I refocused the session on his contributions to my feelings, I am much relieved. It's good to know that he can tolerate some challenging, i.e. "why have you been changing the topic to my sex life" without becoming defensive or diverting the topic. That was comforting. But the litter-box joke is going to have to be addressed at the next session, maybe I need to look at how shocking it was, as well as how we always seem to come back to humor regarding my anxieties. I hope he doesn't see these interactions as too casual, because they do have a lot of meaning for me.I'm not too bothered, but I thank you much for your concern.
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:20:06
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by Sigismund on November 7, 2008, at 19:41:10
> He certainly has a dry sense of humour.
brut. yep.
>
> I'd wonder about it, and whether his sense of humour might be valuable to you in ways I'm not aware of??Hmm, I think you may be onto something. Maybe in my more depressive states I become too pensive and fixated on my lack of contribution to the human race, as well as my general worthlessness in the grand scheme of things. One thing that I have remarked on from the beginning of therapy with him, (which included months of very very depressed llurpsie) is that he could always make me laugh at myself, as well as at life in general. An outloud hilarious laughter. I wonder if his waiting-room clients heard me. probably.
>
> It makes me think of the conversations I have with my psych. I do my number on how appalling and ethically bankrupt the world is, and he agrees and adds lots lots more, mainly about criminals and psychopaths in high places and the dodgy nature of consciousness. Then I say that I want to kill myself out of embarrassment over being part of the human species, and he says 'Oh no, I think it's fascinating.' Which leaves me thinking.Yeah, interesting, because when I express shame about things that have happened to me, and my reluctance to talk about them, lest he think negatively of me-- he says "oh no, that's the thing that makes my job interesting." and tells me with a smile that I am a complicated young lady, which is a big compliment from him. Often, he will tell me about a case that involves some unique twist on the human experience, and I know that he was involved with some severe pathologies. Well, it takes a lot of curiousity to work for 25 years as a supervisor of an inpatient program. So, I guess me throwing stuff at him doesn't faze him too much.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:21:12
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » Sigismund, posted by Sigismund on November 7, 2008, at 19:48:50
yes, sigi,
Therapist and I seem to have similar ways of making humor out of the most obscene things. I suppose it could be coping?-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:24:34
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by Racer on November 7, 2008, at 20:57:30
One thing that I really like about my therapists that I've had past and present is the degree to which they were AUTHENTIC with me. I'm not sure that I could relate to someone who didn't show some cracks around the edges. If your T has a way of making her non-conservative side show, it's nice to be a part of that, in my opinion.
As far as differences between female and male T's. I think that it might actually be easier for me to laugh with a man (deflecting REAL discussion) and cry with a woman (showing some vulnerability). I hadn't thought about that before though. Interesting...
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:30:29
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by Bobby on November 7, 2008, at 21:59:06
> By chance---does your therapist go by the name of manic666? I'm sorry you found it hurtful---but perhaps he just feels comfortable enough with you to let down his guard --to be on that level.
I hope so, and he has given me some indications of that, but I think he is still able to respect his role of "therapist" rather than buddy or mentor. When I have perceived the boundaries as being invaded in the past, I have gotten very upset and we have had discussions about that.
>I certainly possess no skills to discern beyond just being a male trying to read objectively. As long as it doesn't progress towards being suggestive-it wouldn't bother me. But women, especially those who have been victims of abuse and/or those who feel vulnerable, are particularly sensitive to anything that remotely puts their emotions at risk. If it continues to make you uncomfortable after due thought--you bet I'd tell him. It's your mental health on the table--not his. As long as he's being paid for his services--he should conduct himself in a manner that becomes his profession.I think you make good points here. I hope that my T would be sensitive enough to know when I was in a state of mind to appreciate his "sick" sense of humor and when it would be damaging to the therapeutic process.
>I should shut up! I know there's a reason I don't post here on psychology--I'm frightened by the prospect that someone will be influenced by the ramblings of a madman! Good luck--that's what I should have said. :)
Bobby, I'm honored that you DID make it over to this board, because you have a lot to offer. Don't be so modest. You have a good perspective and are a very sensitive guy, which can be appreciated in all areas of life, and certainly on the /psychology/ board. Good luck to you!
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:40:11
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by DAisym on November 7, 2008, at 22:30:05
> Earlier this week we were talking about sex and how upsetting "surprises" could be in that realm for me. I was describing something specific and he said (completely seriously), "that must have been so hard for you to take in." OK - so I came to a dead stop and looked at him and he realized what he'd said. He started to stammer, and I started to laugh and he finally just said, "oh hell, you know what I meant."
>
> :) Sometimes it is fun to watch them squirm a bit.Oh most definitely! Remind them that we ARE paying attention to their comments and interpretations. Sometimes I go too far and start to (over?) interpret his choice of words. Sometimes he uses words that clearly belong to an older generation, and that cracks me up. like "gals" etc. but I try not to embarrass him unnecessarily.
I hope his joke was a sign of his comfort in interacting with me. He has told me before that it is very easy to sit in a session with me. That I am a good talker (no sh*t, really?) and that I am intellectual enough to appreciate some of his more esoteric comments.
Of course, knowing THAT, I worry that he won't bring all of his talents to bear on sessions with me, spending the time instead to have some kind of casual conversation because I am easy to talk to. It's a fine line, I suppose. I want to be liked, but I also want to be taken seriously. The story of my life.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:55:35
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 7:51:48
> THe litter box joke was out of line, but I have to admit, it would have cracked me up as well. I laughed when I read it.
>
> I think there is a lot of good in levity in therapy, but sometimes you need to talk about it. It helps to take the edge off some pretty intense feelings and relieves the drama of therapy.
>
> Seldom.Yep, definitely-- Sometimes, recently I have started crying after a session, because some deep nerve was touched. Even though I was pretty chatty during the session, I was sitting there with a lot of bodily tension. And then I LOST it driving home. Sometimes I feel that I use the humor to avoid talking about this scary stuff, but obviously it gets stirred up anyways. I just wish I could express my grief in the session, where it could become part of the discussion.
-Ll
>
>
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 9:20:02
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » DAisym, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:40:11
> One thing that I really like about my therapists that I've had past and present is the degree to which they were AUTHENTIC with me.
> Of course, knowing THAT, I worry that he won't bring all of his talents to bear on sessions with me, spending the time instead to have some kind of casual conversation because I am easy to talk to. It's a fine line, I suppose. I want to be liked, but I also want to be taken seriously. The story of my life.
I've been meaning to start a thread on this topic myself. The tradeoffs involved in having an authentic therapist. And also in feeling comfortable with a therapist. I've noticed that since my therapist has started feeling so comfortable with me, that I have to keep an eye on things to make sure that it doesn't interfere with my legitimate needs in therapy.
I smiled when I read your original post because it sounds like something my therapist might blurt out. Maybe not the sexual stuff, because he would find it inappropriate given the nature of our relationship. But maybe things that are in bad taste or that might tell me things about him I might not precisely need to hear.
I do tell him if something bothers me, but I find it a bit more difficult to complain about things that show his trust and comfort with me. And I always figure that I have to make a choice. If I insist that he bring his real self to the session, and not use his professional mask, I have to expect some of that.
I do notice that some therapists tend to deflect the hard stuff with humor, or with discussions of interesting topics. My therapist does it very occasionally. Sometimes because he gives in to his desire to "fix" things, or is upset that I'm upset. Sometimes I think it's because his personal resources are taxed and deflecting is easier for him. There *are* some sessions where I find it genuinely helpful. But I keep an eye on that too, and let him know when I see it.
I can see where it would be a temptation for him. He sees a lot of low functioning patients. He's likely worn down sometimes. Not only are you high functioning, but he can talk in a collegial manner with you. I'm sure it's a huge temptation to bump you into appearing well, and getting the side benefit of an interesting conversation. He might even think he's doing a good thing. If he works with a low functioning population in general, his usual best course of action might be to prop defenses and keep people functioning as best as may be. Not discourage people from their customary defenses to explore the underlying affect.
There are times when you may need one, and times when you might need the other. If you think he's colluding with you, or even encouraging you in deflecting with humor, it may be up to you to call him on it. This isn't a perfect world, and they aren't always right.
The joke may have been inappropriate for you (although it wouldn't have bothered me, so perhaps it's not so shocking for him not to know). But I think the bigger problem might be that he is propping your defenses and deflecting the problems.
>>>Sometimes, recently I have started crying after a session, because some deep nerve was touched. Even though I was pretty chatty during the session, I was sitting there with a lot of bodily tension. And then I LOST it driving home. Sometimes I feel that I use the humor to avoid talking about this scary stuff, but obviously it gets stirred up anyways. I just wish I could express my grief in the session, where it could become part of the discussion.<<<
By all means, tell him that the joke was inappropriate for him to tell you. But you might want to read him the above paragraph too. And ask him if his style with his lower functioning clients might be interfering with his ability to help you express your grief in session.
Just my own two cents based on a therapy that can sometimes have a similar problem.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 9:20:37
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » seldomseen, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:55:35
Posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2008, at 13:12:36
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 9:20:02
Well I know I'm wierd but when seeing the therapist set my own limits told sex was off limits in our discussions. I set my own boundaries and she did abide by them. None of her business that's just my thought. Phillipa
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 14:38:06
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 9:20:02
Oops, sorry to be misleading-- my T is retired from the hospital, and now has only a private practice. His cases range from functional but bored older women to dysfunctional relationships to schizophrenia.
He told me once that when someone comes to him for help, and he agrees to take them on, he will stick with them no matter what. He posed the question "Would an EMT drive to an accident scene and decide that it's too bloody and then go home?"
something like that
It's nice to hear that I'm not the only one with concerns about the nature of therapy given the possibility for friendly banter.
-Ll
Posted by Racer on November 8, 2008, at 20:24:21
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » Racer, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:24:34
> As far as differences between female and male T's. I think that it might actually be easier for me to laugh with a man (deflecting REAL discussion) and cry with a woman (showing some vulnerability). I hadn't thought about that before though. Interesting...
>Oh, that's a big one for me -- I am pretty sure I couldn't work with a man. Well, maybe I'm coming close to that point now, and I have always thought some day I would benefit a great deal by working with a male therapist, but that day sure ain't here yet...
Not, you understand, that I would be, like, hiding under furniture or something...
(In the closet, behind the door, under the sofa cushions -- but not under the furniture...)
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 21:03:31
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » Dinah, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 14:38:06
That doesn't negate the possibility that he might tend to prop defenses, in the interest of functioning. Which is fine, if both of you realize it and accept it. My therapist does it himself sometimes, and depending on what I need at the moment, I might let him.
What concerned me was the fact that you said that you wished you could find the feelings in session rather than after. Admittedly, time bomb reactions are common. But if you're feeling unable to access those things in session, it might bear considering whether his intellectual banter and humor contributes to that inability.
I've noticed it in various therapists, as described by Babblers, and I'm never sure if it's a good thing to point out or not. :) After all, they're the professionals and there is some part of me that thinks they just might know what ant hills to leave unpoked.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 21:37:37
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 21:03:31
Hi Dinah,
My T and I have been working on my lousy self-esteem forever. Sometimes I know that he is trying to prop up my defenses, and so does he. I'm only concerned when it becomes automatic and not considered. Sure, it helps his ego to get a depressed person to laugh out loud for the first time in days, but hopefully he is doing it for MY ego, not his.Writing responses to this thread is giving me the gumption to actually talk about some of these issues in my next session[s]. I don't like feeling broken when I leave therapy-- not a good feeling at all. A few months ago we had some tension, and he got a little grumpy with me (I wanted to know what his treatment plan for me was, and he became defensive, I left him a teary voicemail and maybe we sorted some things out, but not everything?), and since then I have probably been more guarded than usual. I think I will become a better consumer of my therapy in November.
-Ll
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 21:52:01
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » Dinah, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 21:37:37
:-)
That's how I feel about it too. Anything's ok, and anything can be just right at the moment, as long as it's a decision considered by at least one of us. (Well, within reason of course.)
It's a real challenge to have those conversations without being confrontational or wounding their egos. Believe me, I know. My therapist's ego is amazingly easy to bruise when it comes to his professional competence. It seems to me that you'll be able to do it though. You have a real facility with expression. And I'll bet you also have the ability to know when to broach the subject and when to back off. It's a challenge to strengthen rather than damage a relationship with frankness, but it can be a real boost to self esteem to manage to do it.
And it may be when you reflect on it that he's doing the exact right amount of delving and propping. It's a delicate balance, and the balance is different for every therapy dyad. Maybe at this time in your therapy, he's doing just the right thing.
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