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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by john79 on December 7, 2007, at 16:22:21
Hello everyone,
Could you please give your opinion about the following issue.
I am a male, in therapy with a female therapist. We're about the same age and she is in training.
I have no disorder or anything, just a difficult phase in my life that needs attention.She is very attractive and, from what I hear and experience with other women, I am attractive.
Women show interest quite regularly, which most men would like, I get very nervous from it.Well, the first three sessions I kind of ignored her pretty appearance, not on purpose but it was the first time in therapy for me and I was focussing on my problems. She let me talk a lot in the beginning. One session she almost felt to sleep.
I did check out her shoes because she has good taste.
Then further in the treatment I noticed some change in her appearance, her eyeglasses were gone and she dressed more sexy.
Also she asked if we could meet the next session in the evening because of her schedule. She was eager to continue the appointment but I said we could better skip it one week because I felt sorry for the long day she would have.
The following occured during multiple sessions. The first thing is that I caught her several times checking my package, very shocking but she is pretty so I enjoy it. I don't know if women do this for fun, but there must be some physical attraction?
Also she does this weird leg crossing thing, while uncrossing her legs she puts her feet very firm on the floor, look me in the eye and the crosses them again. This is not in a slow manner but it freaks me out a bit. Her legs really got my attention from then on.
The result of this was that I got very deeply in love with her, crying in the middle of the night or when hearing a song on the radio.I tried to bring up the issue the following two sessions. The first time she showed this very big grin on her face. When I adjusted my posture very obvious, from sitting lazy in the chair to straight up, she mirrored me exactly but also touched her nose.
Body language seems a very important factor in this therapy, why this is I don't understand yet.
The second time I brought it up, I said I read about transferance but she again ignored it.
The last two sessions her attitude is much more professional and distant. An extra problem is that now I have difficulties concentrating on therapy and bringing up material, and I said it was her.
She asked if I wanted to continue treatment with her and I said yes. I told her that I am a bit fearful of women and she said it could be solved because I have no disorders, but I sensed by the why she smiled and looked that she wanted to say something else but couldn't because of boundaries.
Well, that's it. Thanks for reading an please give your feedback on how if this is part of my treatment plan or that she is just attracted like any other human being. Should I continue with her?
Posted by lovelorn on December 7, 2007, at 17:23:52
In reply to Mutal attraction or just treatment plan, posted by john79 on December 7, 2007, at 16:22:21
I would say no, to not continue with her otherwise you will just be spending weeks and months concentrating on the attraction thing, what it means, does she feel something for you, do you feel something for her, is it romance, etc., etc. causing you complications and hassles you probably don't need. You are not there for that. I would say tell her you are uncomfortable on a personal level working with her and then find another therapist, preferably a male one so you can concentrate on your issue(s) and not animal attraction or confusing your issues with romantic notions.
Posted by Maria01 on December 7, 2007, at 20:47:30
In reply to Re: Mutal attraction or just treatment plan » john79, posted by lovelorn on December 7, 2007, at 17:23:52
Sounds like it's time for a switch-up. Chances are, she is not attracted to you on a personal level. If she were attracted to you and acted on it, she could lose her trainee registration, and her supevisor could lose their license, so the likelihood of her acting on any "attraction" she may feel is nil.
Lovelorn had a great suggestion of switching to a male T, so there is less likelihood of conflicting feelings. BTW, some females will check out a guy's package, just as some guys will check out a female's breasts. Nothing is meant by it; they're just looking, ususally.
Posted by rskontos on December 7, 2007, at 22:46:58
In reply to Re: Mutal attraction or just treatment plan » lovelorn, posted by Maria01 on December 7, 2007, at 20:47:30
John, I would say you are in a no win situation. Like Maria says she has a lot to lose at this point and she knows it. She has to walk away. And for you it could be a big hurt. I would suggest don't go down that road. And you sound like it wasnt even an issue liking her until you thought she liked you. You went for the right reasons so keep it there. Find another T, deal with your issues and move on. Find a nice pretty girl go out with and forget this one, it is a heartbreaker if I ever saw one. Dont obsess over her. If she did or if she didn't doesn't matter given the situation. Take care of yourself in this one. Ok....trust us...
rsk
Posted by star008 on December 8, 2007, at 0:04:41
In reply to Mutal attraction or just treatment plan, posted by john79 on December 7, 2007, at 16:22:21
Oh John.. I wish I could tell you what you want to hear but I can't.. You need to find a male to deal with..You will end up in the middle of a huge mess and end up with a broken heart. She can't afford to get involved with you even if she wanted to. She is more distant now because she has an idea of what you are thinking and wants to remain professional.
I don't know about the leg crossing and uncrossing thing,. The mirroring thing drives me nuts.. Like can't they tell that we know they are doing it and it is annoying as hell?? They are taught to do that.. It gives the impression that they are interested in what you have to say and are totally present.
Women don't normally check you out in a way that you notice..We don't look to see how large you are but sometimes we notice. I work with a guy who we have all noticed because he does seem to be ummmmmm.. well, he's kind of big. But no one can tell you about any of the other guys.. No one looks..
I ahve to agree wiht the the other posters. Move on or you will waste your time there thinking about nothing but her and analizing her moves. We do understand..A lot of us have been where you are.. The atraction and obessing su...ks
Posted by estrellita on December 8, 2007, at 3:27:37
In reply to Mutal attraction or just treatment plan, posted by john79 on December 7, 2007, at 16:22:21
I posted just a week or two with a question about having a crush on my therapist who is in training.
The difference between my situation and yours is that he hasn't done ANYTHING to express an interest in me other than a professional one. Even if he is attracted, I'll never know because he's not going to jeopardize his future career and cross any ethical, legal, or therapeutic boundaries.
I let him know about the crush, so he knows there is attraction on my part. We discussed it, and it was awkward. But I came out of that session feeling more respect for him because I know that he values the work he's doing.
He discussed things with his supervisor prior to the session where we talked about it, and we discussed boundaries, transference, the nature of the therapeutic relationship, etc. It definitely wasn't the easiest conversation I've ever had, but I felt much better knowing that I could be honest with him and that he's going to be honest with me. Overall, the way he has handled the situation demonstrates his commitment to helping me with the goals I originally set, and his commitment to helping people with mental health issues more generally.
I didn't see anything in your email about your therapist having set goals with you, about her discussing the situation with her supervisor, etc. I did see that she started to nod off at one point.
There are two reasons that I would not see her again: (1) she has not handled the situation in a professional way - she refused to talk with you about transference even after you told her you've done some reading about that, sounds like she hasn't helped you with setting goals (i.e., what do you want to get out of therapy), etc. (2) apart from the attraction stuff and not handling it well, she's nodded off during session, has refused to educate you about topics even after you asked to discuss (transference), etc.
Even if the attraction weren't part of the picture, I'd suggest finding a different therapist. Sometimes transference can be used in a therapeutic way, but it seems like she's not that interested in helping you. Nor is she taking her work seriously.
Good luck.
> Hello everyone,
>
> Could you please give your opinion about the following issue.
>
> I am a male, in therapy with a female therapist. We're about the same age and she is in training.
> I have no disorder or anything, just a difficult phase in my life that needs attention.
>
> She is very attractive and, from what I hear and experience with other women, I am attractive.
> Women show interest quite regularly, which most men would like, I get very nervous from it.
>
> Well, the first three sessions I kind of ignored her pretty appearance, not on purpose but it was the first time in therapy for me and I was focussing on my problems. She let me talk a lot in the beginning. One session she almost felt to sleep.
>
> I did check out her shoes because she has good taste.
>
> Then further in the treatment I noticed some change in her appearance, her eyeglasses were gone and she dressed more sexy.
>
> Also she asked if we could meet the next session in the evening because of her schedule. She was eager to continue the appointment but I said we could better skip it one week because I felt sorry for the long day she would have.
>
> The following occured during multiple sessions. The first thing is that I caught her several times checking my package, very shocking but she is pretty so I enjoy it. I don't know if women do this for fun, but there must be some physical attraction?
>
> Also she does this weird leg crossing thing, while uncrossing her legs she puts her feet very firm on the floor, look me in the eye and the crosses them again. This is not in a slow manner but it freaks me out a bit. Her legs really got my attention from then on.
>
> The result of this was that I got very deeply in love with her, crying in the middle of the night or when hearing a song on the radio.
>
> I tried to bring up the issue the following two sessions. The first time she showed this very big grin on her face. When I adjusted my posture very obvious, from sitting lazy in the chair to straight up, she mirrored me exactly but also touched her nose.
>
> Body language seems a very important factor in this therapy, why this is I don't understand yet.
>
> The second time I brought it up, I said I read about transferance but she again ignored it.
>
> The last two sessions her attitude is much more professional and distant. An extra problem is that now I have difficulties concentrating on therapy and bringing up material, and I said it was her.
>
> She asked if I wanted to continue treatment with her and I said yes. I told her that I am a bit fearful of women and she said it could be solved because I have no disorders, but I sensed by the why she smiled and looked that she wanted to say something else but couldn't because of boundaries.
>
> Well, that's it. Thanks for reading an please give your feedback on how if this is part of my treatment plan or that she is just attracted like any other human being. Should I continue with her?
Posted by john79 on December 9, 2007, at 9:23:26
In reply to Re: Mutal attraction or just treatment plan, posted by estrellita on December 8, 2007, at 3:27:37
> I posted just a week or two with a question about having a crush on my therapist who is in training.
>
> The difference between my situation and yours is that he hasn't done ANYTHING to express an interest in me other than a professional one. Even if he is attracted, I'll never know because he's not going to jeopardize his future career and cross any ethical, legal, or therapeutic boundaries.
>
> I let him know about the crush, so he knows there is attraction on my part. We discussed it, and it was awkward. But I came out of that session feeling more respect for him because I know that he values the work he's doing.
>
> He discussed things with his supervisor prior to the session where we talked about it, and we discussed boundaries, transference, the nature of the therapeutic relationship, etc. It definitely wasn't the easiest conversation I've ever had, but I felt much better knowing that I could be honest with him and that he's going to be honest with me. Overall, the way he has handled the situation demonstrates his commitment to helping me with the goals I originally set, and his commitment to helping people with mental health issues more generally.
>
> I didn't see anything in your email about your therapist having set goals with you, about her discussing the situation with her supervisor, etc. I did see that she started to nod off at one point.
>
> There are two reasons that I would not see her again: (1) she has not handled the situation in a professional way - she refused to talk with you about transference even after you told her you've done some reading about that, sounds like she hasn't helped you with setting goals (i.e., what do you want to get out of therapy), etc. (2) apart from the attraction stuff and not handling it well, she's nodded off during session, has refused to educate you about topics even after you asked to discuss (transference), etc.
>
> Even if the attraction weren't part of the picture, I'd suggest finding a different therapist. Sometimes transference can be used in a therapeutic way, but it seems like she's not that interested in helping you. Nor is she taking her work seriously.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
Estrellita, thanks for your answer.You claim that maybe she is not willing to help me, but why wouldn't she?
She genuinly seems to like me, she works in a big academic hospital so she get's her money.
If you state this I feel very rejected. I read about counter resistance and how therapists can sabotage the therapy because they are anxious about their feelings.
Have you talked about this with your therapist?
Posted by Maria01 on December 9, 2007, at 10:00:11
In reply to Maybe counter resistance, posted by john79 on December 9, 2007, at 9:23:26
Therapists(especially those in training) sometimes find themselves unable or unwilling to help for whatever reason. It's all a matter of a "good fit" between client and therapist. Good hospital/academic/professional affiliations do not a good therapist make.
Trainess do not make a lot of money for the record. They will usually work for an hourly wage(depending on the assignment and the state in which they work). Once they are fully licensed, then they can accept insurance reimbursements and full fees. I would strongly suggest speaking with her again, and if the conversation goes nowhere, you do have the right to speak with her supervisor.
She is not the right therapist for you for whatever reason. There is a good chance it has nothing to to do with you, per se. Personally, I think it would be in your best interest to save yourself a lot of aggravation and to seek out a non-trainee male therapist so you can fully work on whatever it is you need to work on.
It isn't a client's responsibility to call out a therapist on matters such as counter-resistance. The client's job is to address their "stuff" in therapy. It is her supervisor's job to point out counter-resistance, etc. This is usually done during case conferences and/or in group supervision sessions.
It's your responsibility as a client to address whatever concerns that brought you to therapy with a therapist that is the best "fit" for you. This trainee, for whatever reason may not be the best person for you to work with. If her feelings toward you were personal(doubtful, but for the sake of argument)she still cannot discuss them with you; it would be a professional and ethical violation.
This trainee is not right for you for whatever reason. You owe it to yourself to move on to a more suitable therapist. After all, you are in therapy to address some concerns in your life, not to read and try to decipher whatever non-verbal messages she is conveying to you. The learning curve for therapists is steep. Find a more seasoned therapist.
Posted by john79 on December 10, 2007, at 12:06:11
In reply to Re: Maybe counter resistance » john79, posted by Maria01 on December 9, 2007, at 10:00:11
Maria01,
I don't WANT her to like me on a personal level, if I give that impression. It annoys me a bit that is seems as if this is what I am after.
I agree with you that the attraction is not on a personal level, but I do think it's on a physical one.
Lots of women I don't know personal hit on me, so I am an expert in sensing when this happens.
In my opinion it is her fault that the therapy went this way. But if she wants me to quit, why behave like this? Just tell me and I'll be gone.
She did mention the last time that she felt we were making progress, so that's a big contradiction in the assumption you've made.If she is trying to drive me nuts, I think it's very unprofessional behavior. Still it hurts me because I'm trying my best and she sees me as an object.
I don't think I can let her go yet, but thanks for the advice. I'll talk to her and see what happens.
Posted by john79 on December 10, 2007, at 12:10:43
In reply to Re: Maybe counter resistance » john79, posted by Maria01 on December 9, 2007, at 10:00:11
One more thing,
Can you give me an impression on how your therapy works, who is talking the most, does he/she give advice, is he/she interested in your hobbies, general interests etc.
I am curious because then I can make a comparison.
Posted by lovelorn on December 10, 2007, at 19:27:28
In reply to How does your therapy work, posted by john79 on December 10, 2007, at 12:10:43
>Can you give me an impression on how your therapy works, who is talking the most, does he/she give advice, is he/she interested in your hobbies, general interests etc.
With my T, it is sort of an unwritten rule that I do most of the talking. Right at the beginning of session she sits and places a little pillow at her side (curious observation of mine) and is quiet and waits for me to begin with what I want to say. I usually go in with some thing or some emotion that is bothering me and I talk about it. She doesn't ask about my hobbies and general interests specifically. She may ask about them in the context of what we may be talking about that day if it fits in with whatever I am dealing with.
She gives advice if I specifically ask for it, but mostly her advice comes through some psychological insight or comment she may have in regards to the issue or emotion I am dealing with as we are talking and as she may ask a question or help me (in her words)in understanding what I may be experiencing. She is careful to more lead me to the advice I need, the answers I need for myself rather than trying to impose advice and answers on me.
She almost never talks about herself and, by her manner, she doesn't invite that we talk about her in any personal way either. And yet, while we are in that room and doing the therapy it feels like I am with the most compassionate and understanding friend ever. It's all one sided, but somehow it doesn't feel all one sided. This re inforces the fact that I am there to talk about me and what's going on with me and that it is me that is supposed to do most of the talking and revealing even when I may not always feel I have something to say. She sits quietly until I do say something or picks up something from what I have been saying to explore further. It's her style and it has worked well for me so far.
And it's interesting too that she works in the same building that I work, so sometimes I even see her in the lady's bathroom or in the halls. And while she will give me a warm smile and we say hello, she maintains the boundaries by her manner, which makes me maintain my boundaries too, that this is a very specific kind of relationship limited to the time we spend in her room. There is a little part of me that would like to know more about her, and yet I appreciate that we have that boundary there and I understand the importance of it. Who knows, maybe near the end of therapy we might be able to share a bit more with eachother or at least I would like to give her a nice hug in appreciation for all she's helped me. We will see when that time comes.
Posted by Maria01 on December 10, 2007, at 19:58:55
In reply to Re: Maybe counter resistance, posted by john79 on December 10, 2007, at 12:06:11
Well, then you have two choices. You can either stay and allow yourself to work with a therapist who is clearly not for you for whatever reason, or you can seek out a therapist who is more suited to your concerns.
From the tone of your first post, it did seem that you wanted her to like you on a personal level; that's the inference I got from it.
In the end, it's up to you. You can either use your energy to work with someone who can truly help you address your concerns, or you can continue to work with her and get nowhere. the choice is yours
Posted by star008 on December 10, 2007, at 21:23:26
In reply to Re: Maybe counter resistance, posted by john79 on December 10, 2007, at 12:06:11
JOhn..
I don't agree totally with other posts.. I don't get the impression she isn't there for you.. I do think that you are right and that if the therapy is going this way that it is probably her fault.
I do get the impression that she is very new and doesn't have the experience to deal with things.. She might be sending you mixed messages.. I don't know since I am just imagining.Waht I do agree with is that you will be wasting both time and money by continuing with her. You will be to obessed with what is going on with her to deal with the stuff you went there for to begin with. I understand not wanting to leave.. It may be hard for you but in the end you will see what you need to do.
Is there a prt of you that likes the diversion from dealing with your own stuff?? If something keeps coming up to get in the way then you will never address what you went there for.. good luck.. please listen to those of us who have been there.. I know it is hard but you can learn thru the pain of others before you get burned yourself.. good luck John.. best wishes, (really)
Posted by beautymarked on December 10, 2007, at 23:45:44
In reply to Mutal attraction or just treatment plan, posted by john79 on December 7, 2007, at 16:22:21
I'm going to agree with star008 here. I wish I had found your post earlier so I could've contributed earlier. I hope I don't miss anything.
If you look a page back or at the top of this page, you'll find my and estrellita's stories, which I think you will be able to relate to. Right now, I'm feeling much more apathetic about my T. The time has allowed me to view everything in a much more objective light (which I would try to before, but the subjective feelings just overtook everything else). I realize now that everything I tried to read into--everything that wasn't there, all those silences, his eyes, his small disclosures really were just representative of his inexperience. Experienced Ts know from seeing so many patients just what might influence a patient to become attracted to them, so they take control of all those small body gestures and therapeutic techniques to only use them with patients who don't have the potential to become attracted to them or at the right time. And his small things that I took as such endearing, attractive factors about him were really just his therapeutic technique (sad to demean everything to that level, but it is meant in a genuine, healing way).
As for is she a good therapist? I really do not have any indication of how your therapy is. It sounds like she is not making any mistakes, but is probably unsure what to do, so instead of saying anything that may jeopardize your therapy, she has said nothing. Or perhaps it's not in her style to provoke you. She may be waiting for you to say more. I know that when I brought up issues with the relationship between me and my T, we would talk about it until the problem seem superficially solved. It was really up to me to bring it up. I would try and bring it up again. By now she should know what to do after discussing your therapy with her advisor. Unexperienced T's need to get their training somewhere. It sounds like your feelings towards your T have the potential to be very therapeutic considering your problems with females in the past (on the contrary to what other people have said, I think having a male T for me helped in that I had the chance to talk intimately about my feelings with a male which I hadn't before). However in the long run, if you want slow-going therapy, you can stay. If you want something that will be more efficient and productive, I'd go elsewhere.
This is the end of the thread.
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