![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on May 1, 2007, at 17:24:08
At what point does therapy become a waste of time/not worth ones time/worthless/etc? How do you know when you've hit that point? Aside from "you've recovered enough to no longer need therapy" of course.
I'm going to leave this deliberately vague for now. Opinions?
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2007, at 18:18:08
In reply to How do you know?, posted by wishingstar on May 1, 2007, at 17:24:08
I was asking similar questions of my therapist today (not about therapy) and was frustrated by his continued answers that only I could know.
Have you ever read "When to Say Goodbye to Your Therapist"? I rather liked that book and it was in plain enough English for me to understand.
Posted by wishingstar on May 1, 2007, at 18:27:07
In reply to Re: How do you know? » wishingstar, posted by Dinah on May 1, 2007, at 18:18:08
I havent seen that book before, but I'm going to see if I can find a copy. Sounds great. Thanks for the recommendation!
Posted by Honore on May 1, 2007, at 18:40:12
In reply to Re: How do you know? » wishingstar, posted by Dinah on May 1, 2007, at 18:18:08
Hi, WS. Unfortunately, that's one of those questions (it makes me shudder to say this) that doesn't have a real answer.
No matter how you parse and weigh and even make lists of pros and cons, I think it comes down, ultmately, to what's in your heart.
My guess is thatfor all of (because of how we approach therapy and how many expectations and hopes we focus on it), giving up on therapy is incredibly difficult. Knowing when it's over-- from frustration, from having made enough progress for the moment and needing to take stock, or from being "done"-- can be either an abrupt, sudden recognition, or a gradual process of realization. But there's so much at stake, if its' gradual, if some line hasn't been crossed in an unmistakeable way, it takes long, painful inner conflict to reach a point of decision.
Lurching back and forth between pulling away and not quite being able to pull free as if against your will can be awful, I know.
I think you have to bear with it, despite that awful feeling of being close to some final knowledge-even for a long time-- without being able to grasp it yet. And over time, you may come to another feeling-- if you don't ever grasp that it is time to end-- you may, without realizing it, build connections. Or, you may feel at some point that you know, finally, that it is time to say goodbye.
I'm sorry there aren't ways of reasoning to an answer. You will know, though, WS, when the time has really come. It's uncomfortable- terribly so-- but perhaps life changes or some unforeseen possibility will give you some greater sense of it.
As least that's as far as I've ever gotten with it.
Honore
Posted by nolegirl23 on May 1, 2007, at 19:07:18
In reply to Re: How do you know?, posted by Honore on May 1, 2007, at 18:40:12
I recently made that decision myself. After two years of therapy (once to twice a week) plus a 30 day psychiatric hospitalization, I finally felt like I would be okay without my therapist.
As somebody stated before, it's just something that you kind of know. My decision was partially based on the fact that it got to the point where my therapist was basically telling me the same things every week in terms of ways to deal with my issues. Once I finally applied the things she was telling me into my life, and once I began to see that she did know what she was talking about, my life got better.
It was hard to tell my therapist, I think that was the most difficult thing for me to do. I was afraid to hurt her feelings; I felt as if I would make her angry or upset if I stopped. Ironically enough, that is one of the issues that she was helping me work through; my fear of how others reacted to my actions.
It's only been a week, I've had a couple of bouts of severe depression and once almost relapsed (I have an eating disorder), but like I said, it's all about applying the information that they give you and utilizing it in your real life.
Good luck, and I hope you make the right decision.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2007, at 19:55:40
In reply to Re: How do you know?, posted by Honore on May 1, 2007, at 18:40:12
That almost sounds like how I described emotional divorce to my therapist today.
Posted by wishingstar on May 2, 2007, at 14:11:39
In reply to How do you know?, posted by wishingstar on May 1, 2007, at 17:24:08
I cant calm down and I've called every person I can think of. I'm a mess. I called my Ts office and asked for her, and then for the emergency pager number and when I said that they said "oh is this amanda (me)?" Hahahaha... one of ginnys clients calls with a crisis and they automatically know its me. aweosome. hahaha...
im going to sit in chat for a bit.. if anyone sees this and is in an okay enough place to talk to me for a bit, can you come in?
ill respond to the question i asked about therapy later.. thank you for the responses.
Posted by Honore on May 2, 2007, at 17:02:40
In reply to anyone available for CHAT?, posted by wishingstar on May 2, 2007, at 14:11:39
What's going on, WS? did you find Ginny?
Don't worry about whether they know your name. It's okay. Maybe they just remembered you-- you know-- maybe your voice sounded recognizable.
I tried the chat, but you'd left. Sorry I missed you.
(((Wishingstar)))
Honore
Posted by wishingstar on May 2, 2007, at 19:17:01
In reply to Re: anyone available for CHAT? » wishingstar, posted by Honore on May 2, 2007, at 17:02:40
Sorry we missed each other honore, but thank you for trying. I've calmed down a lot now. I'm in post-breakdown "duh" mode... very slowed down, confused, just staring.. etc. I didnt end up paging Ginny. I hate to do it because it interrupts her personal life. I've called so much recently and I know it's getting to be too much.. and theres nothing new she could have said.. so I just didnt.
I'm not sure what happened. These breakdowns are starting to be an almost daily thing. I end up crying (more like sobbing), rocking back and forth, just not able to pull myself together. Made myself hyperventilate the other day. It lasts between an hour and three hours maybe, and then I pull it together, but still feel terrible. Thats what happened today. I scare myself with the suicidal stuff.. I always pull out all my pills and a glass of water and I havent taken any yet, but it's so close. It's scary.
I dont want to be back in the hospital. I can color 500 stupid little teddy bear pictures and still feel just as bad when I get out, no matter how long I stay.
I did call my pdoc today. After being hung up on by the phone system three times, I finally got through but they said she wont call in percriptions over the phone (my T wants me to get xanax or something to stop these breakdowns) so I'll have to wait until my appt on Monday. It doesnt feel like anxiety so I'm not sure xanax is the right choice but I guess anything to drug me up so I make it through the moments. But the problem is, I cant function this depressed, but I cant function on xanax every day either. Great.
I feel like I've tried everything. I'll post about my issue with therapy in a seperate post in a second but aside from that... I've been in the hospital recently, the day program didnt work out, I'm still trying different meds, I've called crisis services, I've called friends.. it just doesnt matter. Nothing even begins to help. Things are just getting worse and worse and I'm at my breaking point. I just dont think I can keep doing this. But I dont know what else to do to help myself.
I do have an appt with Laurie, old T from the other city, on Friday. I emailed her today and she got me in. I'll only see her once but hopefully shell be comforting or offer some perspective. I'm trying so hard, but it just doesnt seem to matter..
Posted by wishingstar on May 2, 2007, at 19:32:03
In reply to Re: How do you know?, posted by Honore on May 1, 2007, at 18:40:12
Thanks everyone for the responses about ending therapy.
As much as I loved Ginny in the beginning, I'm starting to wonder if its not time for me to move on. Therapy has begun to feel like a complete waste of my time (and money). Basically the only thing I'm getting out of it right now is some attention. The sessions feel like theyre being spent with me just explaining to her what I've figured out about myself or telling about things that have happened so that she understands it.. but that isnt of any use to me. Of course I know there has to be some of that, but we never get to a place where I'm exploring new ideas/connections or talking deeply about feelings or anything like that. I'm glad she gets it and sees how its all playing out, but I'm not going to pay to tell someone what I already know.
I saw her this Tues. I told her that I'd taken a mini-OD on Fri (it wasnt really an OD at all - only 2 lithium - but I'd started taking them with the intent of taking the whole bottle). We ended up talking the entire session though about my relationship with this new guy I'm dating and whether he's good for me. I'd just had a very interesting cnversation with some coworkers before I saw her that made me think of it differently and so I basically explained my thoughts on that for most of the time. I just want to scream... who cares about my relationship with this guy if I dont make it to next week! Dont you hear me? Dont you hear how bad I'm feeling? Who cares if I'm trying to save him or not. It's just not important right now.
I've talked to her before about how I feel like shes not hearing me, but it doesnt seem to have any effect. Caraher even talked to her on the phone the other day and explained to her what he thinks I need (validation, etc) but nothing changed. Shes stopped asking me if I have any notes for her (I used to write things down and she agreed to ask me every session if I had) and hasnt asked once how I'm feeling in the room, although she promised to do that from time to time after the big issue with changing the number of sessions.
I feel on some level like we've become too friendly. Like she likes me and likes to talk with me about insights etc etc and somewhere in that loses the fact that I'm hurting so bad. I tell her over and over that I know I look okay but I'm not.. but she doenst hear it. I just want some validation.
I feel like I'm hitting the same wall I hit with Anne, my evil T from last year who dropped me while I was in the hospital. The problem is I dont think it's necessairly the Ts fault. I think it's me. So switching wont make a difference. The person who referred me to her (another clinician) said shes great at getting to the feelings. Well, what happened? Why are we stuck here then?
It just feels like I'm wasting my time. If anything, I leave feeling worse because it feels so silly.. talking about my relationship when I cant even promise to be safe. She believes that we cant talk about the deeper issues until I'm more stable... but I dont know. I dont think I'm going to get much more stable until I stop believing I'm totally worthless and etc etc etc. I once gave her a list of what I think those "big issues" that keep this going are. We never addressed most of them.
I'm starting to feel like I want to hurt myself to get her attention.. to get her to hear me. I felt the same way (and actually did it on occasion) with Anne. I expressed that feeling to Ginny in a long note about lots of things once but she never addressed it.
So now what? It feels like it's time to leave. But at the same time, am I just running from the issue? I dont know. I dont know.
Posted by canadagirl on May 2, 2007, at 21:03:16
In reply to Re: How do you know?, posted by wishingstar on May 2, 2007, at 19:32:03
Sounds like she might be trying to distract you from the "deeper" issues for now. And talk about more "superficial" stuff, i.e, your relationship with this guy. That could be on purpose, so you take a break from the heavy stuff for awhile. Sometimes we need to change our thought patterns by distracting ourselves with something completely different. As I've found in Gestalt therapy. I found it very easy to change some of these patterns with that type of therapy. I believe our pathways in our brain get stuck in a particular groove that's hard to get out of sometimes. Not to take your serious thoughts lightly, of course. But people can and do overcome these difficult feelings. Believe me, it can be done. It really can. And there is hope.
Posted by annierose on May 2, 2007, at 21:25:14
In reply to Re: How do you know?, posted by wishingstar on May 2, 2007, at 19:32:03
i do not know you but from what you post.
i do not think ending therapy at a time when you are suffering such inner turmoil is in your best interest.
you are trying so hard to find somebody to help you - and it seems like you can't find that magic button. but there is no magic button. i know you want the painful feelings to go away. it is a LONG SLOW ROAD to recovery. there are no quick fixes. it's sad but true. it takes time.
i have been following your journeys to and from the hospital. i hear how much you want someone to take care of you, comfort you and make the pain stop. i think all of us want some of that too - some more than others.
the sad truth is, you have to take care of yourself now. yes, ginny wants to help you. but she can only do so much. she can listen, and help you understand your feelings so you can make changes. just like your friends can only do so much now. that's what happens when you grow up, there is no mom or dad that takes care of us. and if you had a mom like mine, one that didn't take care of me as a child, it makes that need so strong.
i hope you do continue to work through your personal journey with ginny. you can go from therapist to therapist and keep bumping into the same wall over and over again. eventually you realize that you have the strength and determination to start a new course with your life, and use your therapist as a helpful guide and helping hand. i told my therapist i envision her holding my hand, guiding me, sometimes on a daily basis. she smiled and said, "that's the way it should be, i am there." she has found a place in my heart so she can be with me always.
i hope that for you as well.
i can feel such sadness in your writings.annie
Posted by raisinb on May 3, 2007, at 13:31:38
In reply to Re: How do you know?, posted by wishingstar on May 2, 2007, at 19:32:03
I don't have any big wisdom, either, but here's my
.02:<<The sessions feel like theyre being spent with me just explaining to her what I've figured out about myself or telling about things that have happened so that she understands it.. but that isnt of any use to me. Of course I know there has to be some of that, but we never get to a place where I'm exploring new ideas/connections or talking deeply about feelings or anything like that. I'm glad she gets it and sees how its all playing out, but I'm not going to pay to tell someone what I already know.>>
To me, it sounds like you don't trust her enough to move deeper. This is the kind of thing I do when I don't want to let the therapist in--I do all the bad emotional processing myself and just report in sessions. From what I've read of your postings, there are good reasons for your lack of trust. The question is, is she fully committed to getting you there? Is it important to her for you to trust her? Does she get that you two are in it together, instead of blaming you? (She very well might; I just can't tell, from what you posted).
<<The problem is I dont think it's necessairly the Ts fault. I think it's me. So switching wont make a difference.>>
From your post, it's hard to tell whether it's you or her (your resistance? her inability to connect with you? probably some of both, of course) but that shouldn't make you think that no other T will work for you. What I'd do is talk to her about this, and if you feel that her answers (whatever they are) are true, and based on her sense of you, and her caring about you, then trust them. Like others have said, I think it's just something you have to know, yourself, but I also think that maybe you should give her a chance to comment on these issues, and make it clear that you need real answers.
And you probably know this, but sometimes it takes a really long time to work through dynamics and issues that particular Ts bring up. Sometimes you go forever--months, even years--feeling stuck in the same spiral, not communicating, feeling alone, etc. But sometimes it works--not always, but sometimes. But only you can decide if that's why you're there or if that's even a possibility.It sounds like you need a really honest conversation about what you want, vs. what she thinks she is providing, or her goals for you, etc.
Posted by muffled on May 3, 2007, at 13:59:30
In reply to Re: How do you know?, posted by wishingstar on May 2, 2007, at 19:32:03
> As much as I loved Ginny in the beginning, I'm starting to wonder if its not time for me to move on. Therapy has begun to feel like a complete waste of my time (and money). Basically the only thing I'm getting out of it right now is some attention. The sessions feel like theyre being spent with me just explaining to her what I've figured out about myself or telling about things that have happened so that she understands it.. but that isnt of any use to me. Of course I know there has to be some of that, but we never get to a place where I'm exploring new ideas/connections or talking deeply about feelings or anything like that. I'm glad she gets it and sees how its all playing out, but I'm not going to pay to tell someone what I already know.
**I'm back at that. Started to get ahead, now back to damage control and education....Seems like it cycles. I start to dig, get freaked, run. Come back and its round and round we go.
> I saw her this Tues. I told her that I'd taken a mini-OD on Fri (it wasnt really an OD at all - only 2 lithium - but I'd started taking them with the intent of taking the whole bottle). We ended up talking the entire session though about my relationship with this new guy I'm dating and whether he's good for me. I'd just had a very interesting cnversation with some coworkers before I saw her that made me think of it differently and so I basically explained my thoughts on that for most of the time. I just want to scream... who cares about my relationship with this guy if I dont make it to next week! Dont you hear me? Dont you hear how bad I'm feeling? Who cares if I'm trying to save him or not. It's just not important right now.
**Is there any possibility you could write down an agenda of what you would like to talk about at your appointment and hand it to T?
>
> I've talked to her before about how I feel like shes not hearing me, but it doesnt seem to have any effect. Caraher even talked to her on the phone the other day and explained to her what he thinks I need (validation, etc) but nothing changed. Shes stopped asking me if I have any notes for her (I used to write things down and she agreed to ask me every session if I had) and hasnt asked once how I'm feeling in the room, although she promised to do that from time to time after the big issue with changing the number of sessions.**Took my T mebbe 1 1/2 yrs B4 I start to feel mebbe she 'gets ' me sometimes now. My T forgets stuff too. Mebbe you could write stuff like 1. ask bout notes 2. ask bout mood etc on your agenda? Then she don't have to try and remember.
>
> I feel on some level like we've become too friendly. Like she likes me and likes to talk with me about insights etc etc and somewhere in that loses the fact that I'm hurting so bad. I tell her over and over that I know I look okay but I'm not.. but she doenst hear it. I just want some validation.**Hmmmm. Yup, I sometimes think that there are no words for the pain. And it may be that there isn't. If the pain is comming from a younger WS inside of you, she might not be able to explain, andf so its just this big morass of pain and confusion. My T is just starting to understand some.
Yeah, I sent my T a REALLY nasty fax where I basically told her to shove it up her *ss(literally)I also told her to tell me to go f*ck myself......and I thot mebbe I'd driven her away for good...but she was OK. But it helped, cuz we talked bout it, and it expressed my terror of talking bout stuff....Cuz for me its alot about fear..and anyhow she DID validate me that day, she said real earnestly , several times , that I doing good work, that she NOT gonna dump me. So I dunno, mebbe just belting out your angst in a fax might be an opening for you to talk w/her bout it? Don't worry bout being polite. Just express that sh*t insida ya in words, REAL words. If she any good of a T, she will understand that its fear and/or pain driving your words and actions.> I feel like I'm hitting the same wall I hit with Anne, my evil T from last year who dropped me while I was in the hospital. The problem is I dont think it's necessairly the Ts fault. I think it's me. So switching wont make a difference. The person who referred me to her (another clinician) said shes great at getting to the feelings. Well, what happened? Why are we stuck here then?
>
> It just feels like I'm wasting my time. If anything, I leave feeling worse because it feels so silly.. talking about my relationship when I cant even promise to be safe. She believes that we cant talk about the deeper issues until I'm more stable... but I dont know. I dont think I'm going to get much more stable until I stop believing I'm totally worthless and etc etc etc. I once gave her a list of what I think those "big issues" that keep this going are. We never addressed most of them.**Ohhh, my T would be so happy with you. She CBT trained and loves that stuff. I never did much good w/cbt stuff, but she keep picking away at little stuff, and once I dissoc less I start getting it some. But she needs to keep it in small little bits, or its unmanagable. Its frustrating and slow, but we can spend an entire session talking bout one aspect of a cbt thing(like self talk etc), and I STILL don't quite get it, but its sinking in, SLOWLY. But I guess what I am trying to say, is that stabilization IS reaaly important. Now when I go off on a freak, my freaks are smaller, shorter, less dangerous. So my T and I know, that (hopefully) I will be able to get thru the crazy emotional sh*t that comes up.
>
> I'm starting to feel like I want to hurt myself to get her attention.. to get her to hear me. I felt the same way (and actually did it on occasion) with Anne. I expressed that feeling to Ginny in a long note about lots of things once but she never addressed it.**Like I said, mebbe short and NOT so sweet note. Pick one thing that she really pissed you about and let it rip. If you nervous, you could warn her ahead....
>
> So now what? It feels like it's time to leave. But at the same time, am I just running from the issue? I dont know. I dont know.**I dunno Ginny, but mebbe you guys just need a shake up. It sure does help me w/my T, really does.
Guess this sounds really stupid, but it helps me to feel understood and 'heard' when I pull these stunts w/my T....
I wish you could get a more accessable p-doc, cuz it sounds like ypou need to get a better handle on the meds....
I was on a SSRI and it made me more self injury, but on a diff one I was OK. Meds seem to be really trial and error, and thats why I wish you had a more accessable p-doc...
Take care wishy, its a hard fight, but keep fighting.
My T said, in T I guess it feels like 2 steps forward and one step back(or more)for you? It does, but she also said, you ARE moving ahead, even if it seems slow to you, you ARE making great progress.
Hang in there wishy.
Muffled
Posted by wishingstar on May 3, 2007, at 22:57:49
In reply to Re: How do you know? » wishingstar, posted by muffled on May 3, 2007, at 13:59:30
Thanks everyone for your ideas.. you all have a lot of different thoughts so it gives me a lot to think about.
I'm not going to reply to each individually because it'd take me forever and I just dont have the emotional energy to do so. Its been a long day.. as usual. But I'm thinking about everything each of you wrote.
I'm going to see Laurie, my old T, tomorrow. I'm going to talk to her about all this. She knows me well and I know she'll be honest with me if she thinks I'm the one playing games here. I trust her opinion a lot. I'll post about what she says. Thanks everyone.
Posted by wishingstar on May 4, 2007, at 17:19:29
In reply to Re: How do you know?, posted by wishingstar on May 3, 2007, at 22:57:49
I saw Laurie today and talked to her about whats going on with Ginny and what I should do. At the end, her conclusion was that it sounds like it's not that I'm being resistant or causing the problems, but that Ginny just isnt able to understand and/or give what I need. She said it sounds like I've been trying really hard and she said she was impressed. That was very nice.
I see Ginny again on Monday. Laurie encouraged me to ask Ginny straight out, "do you think you can help me?" Then pay attention to her body language and what she says and make a decision from there. But based on what Ginny has said to me in the past, which I repeated to Laurie, Laurie thinks Ginny feels like she cant and doesnt know what to do. I think shes probably right.. I'd been having that feeling ever since we switched to once a week and she kept pushing the "you can go somewhere else if you want" idea. Laurie also encouraged me to ask her if she's scared.. I cant for the life of me remember her exact reason for thinking I should ask that was though. I'm going to ask at least the first question on Monday and see what happens. Havent necessairly decided to quit but at least now I feel like I'm not totally crazy to be feeling this way. She also told me to ask Ginny what she thinks my part in this is and be ready to hear it.. which I am, and will do.
I told Laurie how I just dont think I can start over again. She asked if I'd considered moving up to her area (where I used to live).. because it's a bigger city and has more options, but also so I could go back to therapy with her. I've told her that's what I wish I could do. But it's just not possible right now, unless I moved back in with my parents, and that wouldnt be good for me. I do need to get out of this area though.
She also apologized for our last session where I felt like she told me I was worthless at my job. She said she didnt realize she'd come across like that (I emailed her to tell her afterwards) and that it'd really made her think about how she was doing therapy and choose her words more carefully. Neat. I wasnt even going to bring that up but it was nice that she did. Then she complimented me a lot on the things I have done with my one client and seemed genuinely happy for me.
She gave me a hug when I left. It was very nice. I felt heard and it was really good to get some of that out today. I feel relieved.
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2007, at 17:22:59
In reply to saw laurie, posted by wishingstar on May 4, 2007, at 17:19:29
It's a shame you can't do that. I was thinking the exact same thing myself. Is there anywhere between where you are now and where she is that would be a possibility?
Posted by wishingstar on May 4, 2007, at 17:54:36
In reply to Re: saw laurie » wishingstar, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2007, at 17:22:59
I guess it'd be possible, yes.. there are lots of places inbetween here and there where the cost of living is equal to my current area. One place in particular would put me about an hour from my current town and an hour from Laurie.. right in the middle. However, moving would require me to quit my job (work is already 30 min south, and I'd be moving north).. and also probably quit going to my ballet studio. Of course there are other studios but I started dancing as an adult, and most studios wouldnt give me the opportunities I have at this one. I guess I could make the drive 2-3 times a week.. it wouldnt be ideal, but its possible.
I guess I really will have to think about this. My only fear is, what if I start seeing Laurie full time and we lose our connection? Probably wouldnt happen, I know.. but its a very scary thought. It almost feels better in an odd way to stay away and hold on to that feeling than to risk losing it.
I'm really going to think on that idea.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 4, 2007, at 18:34:05
In reply to saw laurie, posted by wishingstar on May 4, 2007, at 17:19:29
What a good T she is, WS. Able to hear how things sound to you and make adjustments -- always the sign of a good one.
I really like the idea of you moving back to her area -- not with your parents, though. But just for the heck of it, why don't you check the area paper for jobs this weekend? And perhaps some of their apartment listings. You never know what you might find.
Good work, Wishy!
This is the end of the thread.
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