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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by littleone on April 4, 2007, at 16:16:01
Hi Tender,
It was so nice to see that you posted here a little while ago. Have you gone back into hiding now? I would love to hear about what you’re working on in therapy at the moment if you were up to sharing. Just wanted to say hi and let you know that I’m listening.
Posted by 10derHeart on April 6, 2007, at 13:13:05
In reply to 10derheart..., posted by littleone on April 4, 2007, at 16:16:01
> Hi Tender
Hi littleone, it's always so great when you pop in! I am totally honored you thought of me.
> It was so nice to see that you posted here a little while ago.okay....now I feel embarrassed. But I mean in a good way - a makes-me-think-about-silly-tapes-that *try* to-run-in-my-head way. Part of me says, 'why it is nice? I mean, why would anyone care if they read posts by me or not? I have no significance.'
Then, other side argues back, 'well, you feel just like that about others here, so why not believe the same about yourself, too? It's the same thing - in reverse!'
And so the argument goes, but I'll tell you, that first voice is getting weaker and less convincing these days. And posts like yours here are a HUGE help to allow that to happen. Reinforcement. Didn't know you were part of my therapy....did you? Or....did you? hmmmmm.....;-)
>Have you gone back into hiding now?
Nah, not on purpose, really. I just have a lot on my plate IRL right now. Work and school and a new granddaughter to babysit some days (yeah!) And I am quite the procrastinator, so I try NOT to post as it's just an excuse not to do my necessary schoolwork.
>I would love to hear about what you’re working on in therapy at the moment if you were up to sharing.
Again, that is so cool. Well, my T. was gone for vacation, and it wasn't so bad. He left me that voicemail I posted about and I replayed it a lot. I've seen him 2X since he came back and all that was fine. We are still connected and it feels the same.
But yesterday he had some minor surgery, which he *says* will not keep him out of work for my sessions next week. His dr. said only a few days of recovery, so I won't miss any sessions, but....it's still stressful. (I start imagining the worst and have to do stern CBT on myself!) We had good talks about how I hate that the dr. has to "hurt him to help him," and I want to protect him, sort of like you would a child, from ALL forms of pain. That always gets really intense but he is great about it. Makes me feel totally fine abut saying it, and accepts those feelings so gracefully. He has a perfectly calm, convincing way of reminding me, "Your feelings don't and won't hurt me. Any of them, no matter what. They're important and I want to know about them."
Anyway, once I see he's really back and ok-enough next time and seems himself (he'll be uncomfortable and on some pain meds, but still able to work - that's the plan) *maybe* we'll talk about what we're *supposed* to be talking about. He lets me decide that, that's his way, which is fine, as I do know what's deep down causing pain and holding me back in life.
Something like....{deep breath} things around loathing my physical self (weight issues) body image stuff, how bad I really feel in that way and no one knows, where that comes from, and can we change that - even in tiny, baby steps. And to go further...well, how that's directly connected to my grief and sadness of having no sig other in my life for years, and the terror of wondering if I ever will, and the loneliness I try to avoid feeling and rarely acknowledge, and and....never being touched affectionately and so on by anyone for so long......(did you read Daisy's thread about touch on Social - I posted over there. it's ---wow---just wow---)
That kind of deep, deep stuff. Hard to even contemplate going there - makes me feel so vulnerable. Been circling around toward these things for years and now am there, but....it's scary even with this great of a T.
wow - guess I really *did* want to tell someone what I need to be talking about in T. Thanks for giving me permission :-)
>Just wanted to say hi and let you know that I’m listening.
That's a pretty wonderful thing for me to know. I'm always listening for you and to you, also.
Even when you don't post for a while, it's nice to imagine you reading.... :-)
Posted by Daisym on April 6, 2007, at 18:47:07
In reply to Re: 10derheart... (long!) » littleone, posted by 10derHeart on April 6, 2007, at 13:13:05
>>>>>Something like....{deep breath} things around loathing my physical self (weight issues) body image stuff, how bad I really feel in that way and no one knows, where that comes from, and can we change that - even in tiny, baby steps. And to go further...well, how that's directly connected to my grief and sadness of having no sig other in my life for years, and the terror of wondering if I ever will, and the loneliness I try to avoid feeling and rarely acknowledge, and and....never being touched affectionately and so on by anyone for so long......(did you read Daisy's thread about touch on Social - I posted over there. it's ---wow---just wow---)
<<<<<We've kind of talked about this before here, but it is so true that the body image stuff is super hard to talk about. I always ask myself, "what? You think he can't see what you look like, even behind the couch pillows?" Why can't we believe that people will value us, even when there is too much of us, externally at least? Or an even bigger question, knowing how well I do projects, why can't I make myself a project and do better with me? I've sort of decided that I don't like having a body so while I'll dress it up and take it out, I don't really want to acknowledge it, and I can't work on it and ignore it at the same time.
I looked into touch therapy a little bit. We have someone here who does holding therapy - the head and the neck - no movement, just gentle firm holding. It is an interuterine thing, but it makes a lot of sense. But I just can't. I'm not ready to make myself do it yet. I wish I had a grandmother whose lap was available. I have taken Racer's advice about the cats though. I make a point to sit with one of them on my lap every night for awhile. It helps.
I'm glad littleone enticed you to post. Isn't she sweet?! And I'm glad you posted. It is nice to hear from you. Keep pushing yourself, Tender. You are doing really good work. And I hope your therapist heals up quickly and with little pain.
Posted by littleone on April 9, 2007, at 20:27:00
In reply to Re: 10derheart... (long!) » littleone, posted by 10derHeart on April 6, 2007, at 13:13:05
>Part of me says, 'why it is nice? I mean, why would anyone care if they read posts by me or not? I have no significance.' Then, other side argues back, 'well, you feel just like that about others here, so why not believe the same about yourself, too? It's the same thing - in reverse!' And so the argument goes, but I'll tell you, that first voice is getting weaker and less convincing these days.
I’m glad it’s getting weaker. It *is* really hard to turn around (and believe).
>Didn't know you were part of my therapy....did you? Or....did you? hmmmmm.....;-)
:) I think babble is an important part of therapy. Like how daisy says it’s her real group. It is a good place to test things out. Still scary, but safer than some of the other alternatives.
> and a new granddaughter to babysit some days (yeah!)
You’re a grandma?!?!?!? I had no idea. Your posts sound a lot younger than that. That must be proof that you’re young at heart :)
> We had good talks about how I hate that the dr. has to "hurt him to help him," and I want to protect him, sort of like you would a child, from ALL forms of pain. That always gets really intense but he is great about it. Makes me feel totally fine abut saying it, and accepts those feelings so gracefully. He has a perfectly calm, convincing way of reminding me, "Your feelings don't and won't hurt me. Any of them, no matter what. They're important and I want to know about them."
He sounds like a real keeper. I know that when my T needed some hearing tests I started drawing pictures of a little me putting band aids on his ears. There is definitely a part of me that wants to take all bad things away from him. I have dreams of rescuing him and protecting him. Did your T talk about your need to protect him and take away his pain? Is it a sign of your caring for him, or is there more to it than that?
>Something like....{deep breath} things around loathing my physical self (weight issues) body image stuff, how bad I really feel in that way and no one knows, where that comes from, and can we change that - even in tiny, baby steps. And to go further...well, how that's directly connected to my grief and sadness of having no sig other in my life for years, and the terror of wondering if I ever will, and the loneliness I try to avoid feeling and rarely acknowledge, and and....never being touched affectionately and so on by anyone for so long......
They are biggies, aren’t they. It was good that you could spell them out so clearly here. It’s hard to believe that such a small neat paragraph could hold so much work. Well, now *we* know about you feeling bad about your body image, so that’s one little baby step forward. It sounds like it will be a very tough balancing act to understand the loathing and respect why it’s there vs accepting yourself/body and even learning to like yourself/body. Very tough, but definitely do-able.
>(did you read Daisy's thread about touch on Social - I posted over there. it's ---wow---just wow---)
No, social scares me and upsets me. Could someone maybe post a link to that thread?
>That kind of deep, deep stuff. Hard to even contemplate going there - makes me feel so vulnerable. Been circling around toward these things for years and now am there, but....it's scary even with this great of a T.
It may be very scary, but you can do it. It sounds like you have some good trust with this T and he’s very safe for you. Growth only comes through risk. And this sounds like a safe risk to take, you know? Trust in your T, he will help you along.
>wow - guess I really *did* want to tell someone what I need to be talking about in T. Thanks for giving me permission :-)
You’re welcome :) I’m glad you shared.
Posted by 10derHeart on April 12, 2007, at 0:08:57
In reply to Re: 10derheart... (long!), posted by Daisym on April 6, 2007, at 18:47:07
<<<<<We've kind of talked about this before here, but it is so true that the body image stuff is super hard to talk about. I always ask myself, "what? You think he can't see what you look like, even behind the couch pillows?"
So funny, because today we got into this a little bit. (I can only stand a little bit at a time, it feels so....sad and pathetic) And when I was talking about how it's so hard to force myself to deal openly with this subject, I took a couch pillow and put it in front of me( something I do a lot in t. anyway, depending how exposed I feel)
I said that talking honestly and directly about physical appearance reminded me of the way I like to clutch the pillow. That if I do that, somehow it'll cover up something I'm saying, or doing, or being, and though I'm revealing pain and shame or whatever, he won't really "see" me IF I keep the pillow there - lol. I told him the actual speaking aloud, specifically, about being overweight and feeling ugly and unattractive and more, made it way too real. Like if we just left it some sort of elephant in the room, I could stay in the place where I imagine he doesn't see body size or doesn't notice - or something. But saying words about it made it way too much a fact.
The interesting part was trying to address the fact I was afraid of offending him, or him projecting my distaste toward myself onto himself (he's overweight, too), and that had been holding me back for months on this subject. He didn't say as much I wanted to reassure me he understood, but I guess it was good for a start. It was so hard to pick through that mindfield of mentioning his body appearance....that is not something I really want to do, not like that. But I had to go there. He's called himself "old, out of shape and overweight," recently, when talking about some conversations with one of his own doctors, and I told him how this had made it easier for me to bring this up. We aren't even done with that part of this, I'm afraid. It'll have to be revisited.
I sure stared at the table next to me and my hands a lot today. I mean where *do* you look when you are both acknowledging, albeit in different ways, that the other person is basically - fat? You don't look below the face, and that's even bad enough, although my T. is pretty good at looking unfazed by anything I say about him.
>>>>>>Why can't we believe that people will value us, even when there is too much of us, externally at least?
I know. And for me it's not even that so much. It's like anything else, I can and do look right past that, every day, with everyone I know, heck I honestly forget some of my friends' body sizes the majority of the time, but to look at myself that same way seems ridiculous and impossible.
>>>Or an even bigger question, knowing how well I do projects, why can't I make myself a project and do better with me?
It's so hard for anyone, even a project master such as you. For so many reasons where our weight and moving our bodies with exercise, paying attention to how they work, all that, could feel connected to old stuff, and dangerous, I think. In other words, it may not be a simple project in the here and now.
For me lol - well, my ADD manifests by me hating to start anything long term or with different phases, being nearly incapable of planning steps, stopping when it gets the slightest bit tedious, only sporadically finishing things, and getting completely distracted - over and over. So, framing weight loss and/or exercise as a project - even the word triggers me to start procrastinating right NOW!
>>>I've sort of decided that I don't like having a body so while I'll dress it up and take it out, I don't really want to acknowledge it, and I can't work on it and ignore it at the same time.
That is so insightful, Daisy, that you completely know that is how you view this. And going back to the touch subject in general - kind of hard to have and accept the natural need to be held, etc., while at the same time not liking having a body that can receive touch and one that you'd rather ignore, isn't it? <sigh> Talk about conflicting needs......
> I looked into touch therapy a little bit. We have someone here who does holding therapy - the head and the neck - no movement, just gentle firm holding. It is an interuterine thing, but it makes a lot of sense.
Hmm, I don't know anything about that kind of therapy. How is it an interuterine thing? Sounds like the therapist would have to be really , really good and sensitive to what that might trigger in all sorts of people. Sounds wonderfully intriguing and awfully frightening all at once.
>>But I just can't. I'm not ready to make myself do it yet.
Understandable, totally.
>>I wish I had a grandmother whose lap was available.
Lovely thought, that. Neither of mine, when alive, was physically affectionate much, though they were warm in other ways, but my mom was a big hugger and that was good for me.>>I have taken Racer's advice about the cats though. I make a point to sit with one of them on my lap every night for awhile. It helps.
Good. My "baby" of 16 years sleeps with his body touching mine in some way every night, purring loudly. In fact, this cat is so affectionate, I've often accused him of being part dog. He's had his fur soaked with my tears many times, and puts up even with that, poor thing. It does help - a little.
> I'm glad littleone enticed you to post. Isn't she sweet?! And I'm glad you posted. It is nice to hear from you. Keep pushing yourself, Tender. You are doing really good work. And I hope your therapist heals up quickly and with little pain.
Yes, littleone is the best! Thanks for saying that about my t. work - I think so, too, but then I get so frustrated it's slow and seems unfocused. But my T. isn't the slightest bit concerned, which then worries me that he isn't paying attention to the big picture, (like don't I have to terminate someday?) and is just "used" to me coming whether anything good is happening or not. Doing my job in the room and his, too, as we like to joke :-)
He was alright today, has to wear an arm sling for a long time, but says he's in zero pain. But I know he's uncomfortable and I still can't hardly stand to look at his arm too much. Though it is truly a minor problem, it makes me sad and causes an ache in my chest. Because I want to kiss it in a motherly way and make it all better *now,* and for him to not have to feel fear, pain - ever. To protect him from everything. And no doubt we'll need to talk about that more, although he tried to settle that down today with several proclamations of, "I'm fine. I feel really ok, or I wouldn't be here." Blah, blah, doesn't change my emotional reactions one bit.
Thanks for all you do here, Daisy. You're a gem :-)
This is the end of the thread.
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