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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mair on February 14, 2007, at 16:55:09
My T called me today to cancel our next appointment and left a message on my voice mail at my office asking that I call her back (at home) so she could be sure i got her message. I can't seem to bring myself to call her.
Some of you know she has breast cancer and following a mastectomy, is going through chemo now. She's seeing patients every other week. It's been pretty difficult to maintain any sense of continuity, and tough for me, when we do meet, to get beyond the distraction of just thinking about how awful all of this is for her. She's lost so much weight and all of her hair, and I know she's finding it more and more difficult to bounce back from each chemo treatment. She seems so less engaged although it's possible that I'm looking for this. It may be more perception than reality.
An additional complication for me is that I very recently found out that my older sister has breast cancer too and is undergoing a mastectomy next week, with major reconstructive surgery. I'm taking a week off so I can fly down to Atlanta and be there to help when she gets out of the hospital. Because of her situation, my T and I have been doing more talking about cancer (just the factual stuff) than we might have otherwise. Things with my T and my sister seem so intertwined.
Therapy has seemed so pointless to me lately, and last week, without really planning to, I actually broached the subject with my T of terminating. I've seen this T for around 10 years, much of that time on a 2x per week basis. But I've been mostly doing ok with a scaled back schedule and the thought of ramping it back up after she's better isn't very appealing. Maybe the stuff with my sister is making me feel like I need to hurry up and move on to the next stage of my life. The problem I have with therapy these days is that my most important therapeutic goals can only be achieved with more intensive therapy. If I don't want to see her at least twice a week, we can't work on the more intensive stuff. Now, all of these goals seem unreachable anyway and actually irrelevant too. As long as I'm pretty stable, once a week seems pointless.
As soon as I left my T's office last week, I felt like a heel for bringing up the subject of termination, particularly since I'm not really interested in doing anything precipitously. I also felt like I had this huge need to see her again soon. It's almost like the subject of termination created an immediate need for therapy, which wasn't there before. I also felt a little like a deserter. I know her practice has been seriously disrupted. She told me that when she can start back on a fuller schedule, she'll only have about a third of the caseload she had before.
I seem to fly all over the place between feeling like I don't really need to be in therapy, and feeling so needy. Sometimes I feel that this disruption has demonstrated to me that therapy is simply an expensive luxury. The next moment I feel panicked at the thought of trying to maintain some mental stability without her help. It's occurred to me that maybe I'm making myself feel depressed and needy just so I can justify continuing. Is that being manipulative?
All of which gets me back to where I started. I think I'm so conflicted that I'm incapable of really doing anything - I can't seem to just quit - I can't invest enough of myself into therapy right now to make it seem worthwhile - and I can't even seem to respond to a very simple request that I call her.
Any ideas?
mair
Posted by zenhussy on February 14, 2007, at 17:29:11
In reply to Why won't I call by T back? (long), posted by mair on February 14, 2007, at 16:55:09
>>>>>I seem to fly all over the place between feeling like I don't really need to be in therapy, and feeling so needy. Sometimes I feel that this disruption has demonstrated to me that therapy is simply an expensive luxury. The next moment I feel panicked at the thought of trying to maintain some mental stability without her help. It's occurred to me that maybe I'm making myself feel depressed and needy just so I can justify continuing. Is that being manipulative?
All of which gets me back to where I started. I think I'm so conflicted that I'm incapable of really doing anything - I can't seem to just quit - I can't invest enough of myself into therapy right now to make it seem worthwhile - and I can't even seem to respond to a very simple request that I call her.
Any ideas?<<<<<
Mair,You're not making yourself feel depressed and needy to justify continuing.....maybe you ARE having feelings of neediness and depression?
and it is OKAY to feel those things. it isn't easy, nor comfortable but it is okay.
the request to call her isn't simple....please don't diminish it by saying it is so.
there's so much more wrapped up in this like you've written so of course it isn't simple or easy and of course you're conflicted.
couldn't be harder news about your sister either :( so sorry about the timing. she's lucky you're going to be able to go help her post surgically.
wish the ol' husster had insight or wisdom. instead just plain ol' compassion and empathy.
willing to listen/read whatever you need to get out.
keep listening to your gut about this.....after ten years and all you've been through maybe some personal time to reflect might be good....even if it wasn't planned. you might find during that time you'll be able to examine your therapeutic relationship in the ways you need to. you might find out you're ready to switch to a different therapist or kind of therapy or that it is more important to have continuity.....only you will know what is right for you.
with huge prayers for sister, therapist and whole family,
zh
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2007, at 17:51:39
In reply to Why won't I call by T back? (long), posted by mair on February 14, 2007, at 16:55:09
Mair, I'm sorry about your sister.
I think *everything* you're feeling is perfectly natural, even the ambivilance.
It's scary to see someone you care about not doing well, especially people that you look to as being there to take care of you.
She isn't the same therapist that you've always had, so therapy isn't as beneficial to you. I wouldn't dismiss your perceptions as projection. I know my therapist wasn't himself at all during the Katrina aftermath, and he'll be the first to admit it. There's a possibility that one day she may be again, but she's not right now.
I think I'd be inclined to want to take advantage of the breached attachment to back away, if only out of fear that the attachment will hurt again.
And feeling scared about leaving anything you have had so long is bound to be scary. I have made inroads in placing some of my workload out, but everytime I take a step forward, I panic that maybe I'll need that money and I'll never find as congenial an assignment later, etc. etc. I sometimes think being fired is the only way to budge me from my clinging in fear.
And *of course* you care about her after all this time, and worry about her caseload and earnings potential. That's only natural, no matter how many books tell us it's not our jobs to take care of our therapists.
But of course it isn't our jobs to do that. And if therapy isn't helpful to you right now, for whatever reason, you don't need to continue it for her sake. No matter what your reason for discontinuing it. If it would be more helpful for you to step back and reassess therapy when she's well again, that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
I chose to hang in there and cling to what remnants I had left of my therapist when he was not himself. And to tell the truth, I'm not sure I made the right decision. Things will never ever be what they once were. In some ways the changes are pleasant, but in some ways they're not terribly therapeutic. That's me, of course. And you might not find the same experience. But I suspect that any major life event leaves the participants changed. Or as T3 (the therapist I saw when he was away) said "You'll never be able to forget what *did* happen." I wasn't sure if she was warning or cursing me.
You might find that when it's all over you've forged a new and even better connection.
But right now, if it's not helpful to see her, it's not. It's fair to say that.
Posted by annierose on February 14, 2007, at 18:55:22
In reply to Why won't I call by T back? (long), posted by mair on February 14, 2007, at 16:55:09
I'm so sorry hearing about your sister. No wonder this is so confusing and difficult. The mixed emotions you are experiencing, I think, would be expected.
Since this is a 10 year relationship, I wouldn't want you to terminate right now. See her when it feels okay to do so, but keep her in your life. She is too important to you to just walk away from. I know that feeling --- everytime I want to quit or cancel a session, my need to see her spikes. This is a complicated relationship like no other.
I remember saying that it felt like you were going to therapy for her right now. And that can't feel good. So maybe you go as often or as little as you can. And when she gets healthier, you can make decisions then about termination. As hard as that might seem right now.
I'm just afraid of how you will feel if you lose the hope of her support in the future.
My thoughts and prayers are with your sister and your t. Life just sucks sometimes doesn't it?
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2007, at 19:56:24
In reply to Why won't I call by T back? (long), posted by mair on February 14, 2007, at 16:55:09
I think Annierose's answer was more well balanced than mine, and far less tainted by my own experience. :)
Posted by DisTraught on February 14, 2007, at 22:15:30
In reply to Why won't I call by T back? (long), posted by mair on February 14, 2007, at 16:55:09
Gosh, is that a hard call!
In a sense there's a deep conflict here; your T is supposedly there to help you back to life, but at the same time she may be losing hers. Most people find it alarming to see someone battling with an illness that may be terminal. In a dependent situation we want people to be healthy, nurturing caretakers. I quite sympathise with your predicament, and I think you need to go with your gut feeling, as this is a professional relationship and not a personal one.Penny
Posted by Honore on February 15, 2007, at 0:39:04
In reply to Why won't I call by T back? (long), posted by mair on February 14, 2007, at 16:55:09
Mair, I truly think you need a consultation with another T about the situation with your T.
This could be a bad experience if you don't get some help dealing with it.
It's something that's done when therapy becomes very difficult because of anger, conflicts, and many other things, in situations that may be getting too explosive for patient and T to deal with without help.
I've done it twice in the times with my T (once toward the beginning and once, although I didn't actually need to go) recently, when we were having a lot of conflict.
This seems like a situation that calls for it. It's terrible that your T doesn't seem to be doing well. That would be traumatic for anyone. It is totally natural that you're feeling really frightened and want to get away from her, and at the same time, want to protect and save her from things.
But it's not looking as though she's going to be strong enough to help you with it herself now.
best, and I"m sorry,
Honore
Posted by fayeroe on February 15, 2007, at 16:23:13
In reply to Re: Why won't I call by T back? (long) » mair, posted by Honore on February 15, 2007, at 0:39:04
mair, the one thing i would do is call her. having been such a patient, as a human being the contact from you will be important.
i'm sorry about your sister and very grateful that you can help care for her.
only you can decide what you want to do in the future, so for now why don't you call her and touch bases and go from there? xoxoxo pat
Posted by Poet on February 15, 2007, at 17:20:18
In reply to Why won't I call by T back? (long), posted by mair on February 14, 2007, at 16:55:09
Hi Mair,
I don't think you're making yourself feel depressed and needy so you can continue therapy. I don't see how you're being at all manipulative. I think you're confused as to what you should do due to your T's health concerns. Maybe you're thinking T'll have more time to recover if I don't go to therapy, but on the other hand maybe being active as a therapist will help her feel stronger because she's able to work.
Maybe write down all the reasons you think you should terminate, and all the reasons you think you need to stay in therapy and see which comes out on top. I know you have much on your mind right now between your sister's and your T's cancers, but I'd hate to see you quit therapy if deep down you really need to continue it.
Good luck. I'm holding light for you, your T and your sister.
Poet
Posted by Honore on February 15, 2007, at 20:48:31
In reply to Why won't I call by T back? (long), posted by mair on February 14, 2007, at 16:55:09
Mair, I didn't mean to leave out that I'm terribly sorry about your sister. How is she holding up? That's an awful double tragedy to have to hold in your mind at once.
I'm thinking of you and wish and hope that everything will go okay for your sister and you.
Honore
Posted by Honore on February 15, 2007, at 20:49:28
In reply to Re: Why won't I call by T back? (long), posted by fayeroe on February 15, 2007, at 16:23:13
Thanks fayeroe for reminding me to say how sorry I am about Mair's sister.
How are you and your family doing?
best,
Honore
Posted by mair on February 20, 2007, at 22:23:07
In reply to Re: Why won't I call by T back? (long) » fayeroe, posted by Honore on February 15, 2007, at 20:49:28
I just want to really apologize to those who answered me on this thread. One night last week I spent alot of time working on a collective response. When I was almost done, I thought I could get back to re-read someone's post without losing what I had written. Not So, apparently, because the message I wrote disappeared into the unknown regions of cyberspace. I was totally deflated but it was also late and I didn't feel up to rewriting it. The next day came and it started to feel that any response was already too tardy and thus too rude. As is all too typical for me when I think I've offended someone, I just froze - for days. Generally the longer that goes on the worse it gets; I've been thinking for the last several days that I couldn't come back here, at least for a long time.
I really do appreciate the answers I got and although it was beyond frustrating to lose what i wrote, it was very helpful for me to read your responses and to respond to them by writing what turned out to be a phantom response. I think it started to really sink in that I have too much invested in this relationship to just walk away from it, and that some of what I've been experiencing may be a reaction to my T's illness. I think as Dinah put it, I really just want my old T back.
Today, I met with my T for the first time since I wrote that post. She asked me if I got the impression that she endorsed the idea of me cutting back or quitting. I told her that I got the impression that she was more than open to the notion that I should cut back on therapy and that since once a week therapy has never been very helpful, just quitting seemed to make more sense. She told me that she thought alot of my ambivalence arose from the fact that I've never quite known how to use therapy during periods when I was feeling better. She also told me that just feeling better "for awhile" was not her idea of the best quality of life for me - that she thought there was still a lot we needed to work on and that in her opinion, I still had a long way to go. (why should I find that so reassuring?)
I had a not very good ending with my last T who was also my psychiatrist. Through a set of circumstances which are a little too involved to recount, I decided I really needed somewhat of a break from therapy and during the session which was to be our last (at least for awhile) I got quite angry with him - right at the end of the session. He was upset with me for not really giving him the opportunity to respond. I came back to see him the next week, really to apologize, and in that session he let me apologize while taking no ownership for the source of my anger. I continued to use him for my meds prescriptions for a few years after that and I even continued to see him for therapy on a on again off again basis, but he was always very careful after that to let me call the shots on when I'd see him and what we'd talk about, and he never tried to get me to talk about what it was that had made me so angry. Over a period of time, I felt that he had sort of given up on accomplishing anything of much value with me and I definitely emotionally withdrew from him. Our relationship eventually ended not with a bang, but also with barely a whisper.
The subject of how I ended things with my last T has been something I've spent alot of time discussing with my current T. It usually comes up after I've run into him somewhere. When I was trying to respond to your posts, I found myself thinking about him and it struck me that I might be going through a subconcious emotional withdrawal with my T now and that I really couldn't bear to leave therapy from a point of emotional withdrawal and with a lot of unresolved issues concerning my relationship with my T. I haven't been doing very well for several days now for a few different reasons, but I've also had alot of anxiety about therapy and I've found myself again and again thinking about how I ended up feeling about my old T.
I think I must have gotten this across to my T today, because one thing she said which really stayed with me after I left with was that it was her responsiblity to see that that didn't happen.
So it's been good for me to rekindle the connection with her that feels elusive so much of the time, because it's the fleeting connection which makes me feel that there are therapeutic goals worth pursuing and that I may have a shot at feeling that I've held up my part in at least one relationship in my life.
I get to see her one more time before I leave for a couple of weeks, and because of her chemo schedule, we won't meet again for almost 3 weeks. It will be interesting to see how well I can hold onto the sense of connection I felt today.
Also, thanks for your words about my sister. Her surgery is Thursday and I fly down to be with her on Sunday. My experience with my T has really made be appreciate what a truly awful disease this is. But I'm also glad that I can be there with her.
fondly
mair
Posted by fayeroe on February 20, 2007, at 22:32:13
In reply to Re: Why won't I call by T back? (long) » fayeroe, posted by Honore on February 15, 2007, at 20:49:28
> Thanks fayeroe for reminding me to say how sorry I am about Mair's sister.
>
> How are you and your family doing?
>
> best,
>
> Honorethanks, Honore.......we're hanging in. i'm speaking at a congressional meeting on Thursday about losing Brian. i'm very, very nervous about it but an organization asked me to and i feel that i want to honor him in that way......xoxoxo pat
Posted by fayeroe on February 20, 2007, at 22:33:53
In reply to My Pathology At Work, posted by mair on February 20, 2007, at 22:23:07
mair, i'm delighted for you.......truly......i've been thinking about you and am so glad that you posted....
take care of your sister and yourself. i will hold you both in my thoughts...pat
Posted by Dinah on February 21, 2007, at 21:52:59
In reply to My Pathology At Work, posted by mair on February 20, 2007, at 22:23:07
I'm glad you had a good session, and had your therapist and a connection with her before the separation.
I'll keep you and your therapist and your sister in my thoughts.
Posted by littleone on February 21, 2007, at 23:12:10
In reply to My Pathology At Work, posted by mair on February 20, 2007, at 22:23:07
Hi Mair,
I just wanted to say that I’m real glad you were so brave and posted what you did rather than just stay away from babble for “a long time”. I can hear how badly you feel about what happened, but I just wanted to let you know that you definitely aren’t alone there. I do this all the time – draft something then don’t send it, or delay replying then get caught up in the “too late” mentality.
I don’t think anyone would consider you rude or offending. I think most/all of us understand that each poster has their limits on how involved they can be here at any given moment and that isn’t a reflection on how good or bad a person is. It’s simply reflective of their current level of internal resources.
I think you were very brave to be so open and explain that to us. I really respect that.
I’m sorry I haven’t had any words for you re your T (and your sister). Even now I find I come to a complete stop when I try to think of what to say. I think the best I can give you (and your T and sister) are some warm, healing vibes – here they are: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I am really glad you’ve been able to talk this over with your T and made some significant insights around the similarities between this situation and your ex-T. It sounds like you’ve done some really good work and moved towards fixing the problems you’re having with your current T.
I bet that must bring some relief for you, although it’s probably very disappointing that you’re about to have a 3 week break. I too hope you can hold on to your connection for as long as possible.
Take care of yourself.
Posted by mair on February 22, 2007, at 22:05:04
In reply to Thinking of you » mair, posted by littleone on February 21, 2007, at 23:12:10
Thank you. I met with my T today for the last time before that long break and we talked about whether I can hold onto that connection. I think it will be easier since I seem to have crossed some sort of divide this week.
My T is having a harder and harder time with chemo, and we talked also about how she sometimes seems like she isn't all there or isn't listening well enough. She thinks it's fatigue and she told me that she vacillates between thinking it's better that she see people, even on a disjointed schedule or that she should just stop working until chemo is over and her strength is back some. I told her that I had sometimes wondered whether she should keep trying to work. When I was feeling so disconnected, I was thinking she shouldn't be working. Now I can see that if she had just stopped for several months, it would have been very very difficult for me to start back up again, and it probably would take a long time to get back on track. It always seems to be hard for me to get up to speed even with vacation breaks.
Thanks also for your note about responding (or not) here. Feeling that I haven't done something I should have and then totally freezing up about it until it gets so much worse seems to play out over and over again in all sorts of different circumstances. Funny how tough it is to break those patterns.
mair
Posted by mair on February 22, 2007, at 22:15:45
In reply to Re: My Pathology At Work » mair, posted by fayeroe on February 20, 2007, at 22:33:53
Thank you Pat
I'm so sorry to hear about your nephew. It is such an impossible situation there - so dangerous for soldiers and iraqis alike, and seemingly without resolution. There is so much death and destruction - after awhile it just seems unfathomable.
I think my state, with a sparse population, leads the nation in iraq war deaths per capita. Reading about them provides me with plenty of opportunities to place myself in the shoes of the mothers and try to imagine what they're feeling. I have a 21 year old son. I just couldn't bear the thought of having something like this happen to him.
mair
Posted by fayeroe on February 23, 2007, at 7:43:33
In reply to Re: My Pathology At Work » fayeroe, posted by mair on February 22, 2007, at 22:15:45
i spoke at a congressman's office yesterday about my nephew and all of the families, communities, schools, workplaces, etc. that are affected when ONE person is killed.....and who is really paying the price in Iraq......our soldiers and their civilians.........take care of yourself. pat
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