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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on July 6, 2006, at 20:54:43
In reply to Re: Okay, things to do before July 10, posted by puravida on July 6, 2006, at 19:47:32
Love to have you!
Originally, her research and treatment were for suicidal and self injury behaviors and thoughts. It later got expanded to borderline, but I think it's good practice for just about everyone. Maybe should be taught in elementary school.
It's good sensible stuff.
Posted by Jost on July 7, 2006, at 19:35:01
In reply to Re: Okay, things to do before July 10 » puravida, posted by Dinah on July 6, 2006, at 20:54:43
Got the book day before yesterday. Looks to me like anyone could benefit from it-- definitely anyone who suffers from "emotional dysregulation" (or, is emotionally intense, whichever you prefer)--
I'm interested to read and possibly discuss some or all of the first 50+ pages, and have read the first chapter--
but I'm glad we're skipping to the workbook--
I have a couple of concrete goals in mind-- around which I might orient my thoughts-- and I'm very much looking forward to this.
Jost
Posted by gardenergirl on July 8, 2006, at 17:44:21
In reply to Re: Okay, things to do before July 10 » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on July 6, 2006, at 9:38:29
Yeah! It's okay if you're not ready with every last thing on Monday. Heck, I might not be. :) But we'll have fun and learn stuff and it will go how it goes.
:)
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 8, 2006, at 17:47:44
In reply to Re: Okay, things to do before July 10, posted by puravida on July 6, 2006, at 19:47:32
Hmmm, I could swear I made a post in reply to you, but maybe I just imagined that. :)
Welcome! I'm glad you're joining us, and I hope you enjoy it. As Dinah said, the skills are not just for BPD anymore. There are studies using them with depresion and eating disorders. I'm sure that different therapists use some version of them with clients with other diagnoses, too.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 8, 2006, at 17:52:24
In reply to Re: Okay, things to do before July 10, posted by Jost on July 7, 2006, at 19:35:01
That's great! Sounds like you're leading the pack with getting started. I've got to think about some concrete goals for myself. And review the reading, since it's been awhile for me.
:D
Posted by Jost on July 10, 2006, at 19:21:41
In reply to Diary cards, posted by fallsfall on July 2, 2006, at 20:43:43
Does anyone know where there's a fuller description in the Skills Training Manual for the diary card shown on page 32 (and mentioned briefly on page 31)?
The front of the card has areas for alcohol, OTC medications, prescriptions, misery, etc. I'm not sure how to fill it in (if I were to) and what these refer to--is it just using these things? or using them in a way that you shouldn't?
There are what look like acronyms (DEAR MAN, GIVE, FAST, etc).
Also there are some blank colums on the right and I'm not sure what they're for.
Is there an online explanation somewhere?
This therapeutic approach seems down-to-earth, a really useful, practical guide to living.
Jost
Posted by fallsfall on July 10, 2006, at 22:08:26
In reply to Re: Diary cards, posted by Jost on July 10, 2006, at 19:21:41
Those areas in the diary card are so you can keep track of things you did or did not do.
If you drink alcohol, then you put it on the card. Later, you may see a pattern that shows you that when you drink alcohol bad things happen, or you are extra depressed the next day, or that you usually drink alcohol after something particular happens.
Prescription drugs - write down if you took your meds on time. This can help you to remember to take them, or can make you aware that you have forgotten them. I find that if I start forgetting to take my meds that it is a red flag that something is bothering me. You can also record if you take any PRN meds that day.
For misery, rank your misery on a 1 - 10 scale. Then you can chart your misery, and figure out if things are getting better or worse, or see if you have patterns to when you feel the worst.
The purpose of the cards is to make you aware of what is going on in your day, and also to give you a record so that you can see patterns in your life (like "every time I talk to my mother on the phone I drink", or "when I forget to take my meds in the morning, I feel really lousy", or "if I get 7 or more hours of sleep I have a good day"). These patterns are often very simple, but you don't notice them unless you keep track of certain things.
As you go through the DBT program, you will learn the acronyms. You can ignore those sections until you come to them.
You can use the blank columns for whatever is important to you to keep track of. For instance, how many times you SI, or what time you get out of bed, or how many people you talk to, or if you took a shower, or how many hours of sleep you got.
Good luck!
Posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 22:30:32
In reply to Re: Diary cards, posted by Jost on July 10, 2006, at 19:21:41
Heck's Becks. I didn't get to this today. My T was a half hour late for our session today (I really think he forgot that it was scheduled an hour earlier than usual!), and this afternoon was spent trying to calm myself and the dog from the chirping smoke alarm. Every 39 seconds for 3 hours!!!!!!!!! Aagghh~
Jost, thanks for posting today. I appreciate the reminder in my inbox.
I apologize for not being prepared today. I will get on this first thing tomorrow. After my rescheduled T appt., that is. Bah.
About diary cards.... the acronyms like DEAR MAN and PLEASE MASTER refer to specific skills. As we get to them we should start logging on the diary card if we practiced them or used them in a situation. But for now, if it doesn't apply or we haven't gotten to it, we can skip those sections.
The diary cards are explained in Chap. 6 of the main book versus this manual, which is kind of annoying. The original card was designed to track mainly self-harm behaviors. So for example, the first column, alcohol, is where you would write how many drinks and what kind you may have had that day. The next few are pretty much the same. When you get to suicidal ideation and misery, you rank them from one to five. Zero is the absence of a behavior, urge, or feeling. Five represents the most intense or worst behavior, urge, or feeling according to the column header. The last column, "Used skills" has a key at the bottom of the card (1-7). The two empty columns are for customizing the card. You can add anything you want to track there.
I'm not planning to use the original version of the card, since a lot of it doesn't seem to meet to my needs.
I thought I had more versions or links to versions in a file on my hard drive. I do have one that I modified that is specific to eating disorders, so if anyone is interested in that one, email me and I'll email the file to you.
I'll keep looking about other versions. In the meantime, I think I'll use this one, although I wish it was a one-week version versus a one-month.
http://home.everestkc.net/vics/Diary%20Cards/DBT%20style%20mood%20chart%204-17-5.docMore later,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 22:59:07
In reply to Re: Diary cards, posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 22:30:32
Thanks for posting that, Falls! :)
Here are some links about diary cards that look useful (the site map for the www.dbtselfhelp.com site lists "traditional diary card" as one choice, but it pulls up the alternate version from what I can tell.
Explanation: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/diary_card_explanation.html
A rather complicated version supposedly in Microsoft Excel (but I'm not sure how you make it work): http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/diary_card_4.html
Another link (Do these look wonky to anybody else?): http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/diary_card_3.html
What they call the "traditional card":
http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/diary_card_1.html
Another alternate version:
http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/diary_card_2.html
Example of a completed card:
http://www.behavioraltech.com/downloads/diarycrdexamples.pdf
Okay, I'll stop now. :)gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 23:59:15
In reply to More about diary cards, posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 22:59:07
I hope no one minds, but I'm going to link to something already written to get our discussion going.
Core Mindfulness: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/core_mindfulness.html
Discussion (also from this link)
Using the above as a description of being in wise mind can anyone relate their own experience of wise mind?What has it taken for you to reach wise mind? For example, sometimes a person may reach wisdom only when suddenly confronted by another person. Or someone else may say something insightful that unlocks an inner door.
What similar experiences or other examples have any of you had in experiencing wise mind?
Can you think of a situation in your life in which using this skill might have been helpful? How do you think the outcome would have been different? Can you make a plan to use it in a situation that is upcoming and might be difficult?
Exercise
Set an alarm clock for a certain period of time each day (like every hour). When the alarm goes off, check in with yourself. How are you experiencing the moment? Observe your thoughts and emotions. Don't judge them as right or wrong, just observe and describe it by writing it down. At the end of the day, do you see a pattern? Have you learned anything about yourself? No matter what the experience you had, allow yourself to let go of all that happened. Let go of the judgments. Be in the moment. What is this like for you?
Posted by gardenergirl on July 11, 2006, at 0:08:25
In reply to Mindfulness lesson 1, posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 23:59:15
Handout for wise mind: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/mf_handout_11.html
Observing: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/observing.html
Describing: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/describing.html
Participating: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/participating.html
Handout: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/mf_handout_21.htmlThe next part will be Mindfulness: How, and then we can get into the homework. Sound good?
gg
*all links from DBTselfhelp.com
Posted by Jost on July 11, 2006, at 0:25:43
In reply to Mindfulness: What, posted by gardenergirl on July 11, 2006, at 0:08:25
Sounds like a good start. I'll look into the diary cards aspect, and the first pages you recommended, then check out the handouts, most of which I may already have gotten.
Maybe can start discussing some of this tomorrow!
Jost
Thanks, gg, for being willing to start us off.
Posted by fallsfall on July 11, 2006, at 9:14:36
In reply to More about diary cards, posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 22:59:07
It is important to keep the diary cards simple. It has to be something you are willing to do every day. Don't worry about the skills part yet.
I used to write a couple of sentances or a list of things that I did on a particular day, so I could remember the day a little better.
I am so a computer person, but I wrote these by hand. I could scan an example if that would help anyone (but couldn't post - just email)
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2006, at 11:49:38
In reply to Mindfulness lesson 1, posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 23:59:15
Wise mind is probably the most difficult thing in the world for me to experience. I think it's so integrated with my core troubles that it is almost impossible for me to embrace. Or even to wish to embrace.
It makes it difficult for me to do the rest of the exercises as well, since I usually split into an unemotional observing self which totally undermines the exercise.
Perhaps Babble is the place where I experience wise mind most often. Often I post purely in rational mode, and I don't think I'm at my most helpful then. And occasionally I post purely in emotional mind, and I know I'm not helpful then. But occasionally I work in cooperation, or intellect informed by emotion. And I tend to like myself then.
But in general I have trouble thinking of it as something to aspire to, since there is such a tension between emotion and reason in me, amounting almost to animosity. Despite the fact that I do like myself on those occasions when I do act in cooperation.
Posted by rubenstein on July 11, 2006, at 14:34:55
In reply to Mindfulness lesson 1, posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 23:59:15
I have trouble intergrating the use of the wise mind. It seems that at times either my emotional mind takes over while it battles with my rational mind.
Lately, I have been trying to listen less to both and try to come up with something in the middle, although that seems like copping out in some instances it has worked a little better for me.
I am not sure if I answered the question right?
rachel
Posted by fallsfall on July 11, 2006, at 19:12:57
In reply to Re: Mindfulness lesson 1, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2006, at 11:49:38
What do emotional you and rational you think about the times that they cooperate? I think it is something to aspire to.
Posted by Jost on July 11, 2006, at 21:24:35
In reply to Re: Mindfulness lesson 1 » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on July 11, 2006, at 19:12:57
I had an instance of thinking of something that seemed closer to a "wise mind" this afternoon.
A doctor had given me an inappropriate medication (which I had questioned), and I had checked with my pdoc, who said it was a bad mistake. I had sent her an email (an agreed-upon way of communicating) last Wednesday, and had still not heard back. At some point, I was thinking that another day had gone by, and got very agitated about the whole thing. I had asked for a different prescription, also, and was hoping to get a substitute. So I suddenly started going through a litany of accusations and spiralling bad thoughts about her and the whole situation that I went to her for..
I realized at one point that her not having responded wasn't necessarily a sign of her irrresponsiblity and indifference. It could easily have happened that she didn't recognize who was the sender of an email, and just deleted it--or even had a spam blocker, which filtered it out-- So it wasn't anything that malign or intentional.
This was a calming thought, which would have put me in a more accepting frame of mind. Yet it felt threatening and inimical, even though I was also in a way attracted to it. So I mostly just put it out of my mind, although it did calm me somewhat.
The less upsetting, sort of nonjudgmental version of why I hadn't gotten a response felt really dangerous-- and I didn't want to be in that position-- of trusting someone untrustworthy, who would do possible disastrous things if I wasn't constantly suspicious, and second-guessing and double and triple checking.
At the same time, I blame myself for these emotional helpless-angry spirals, for using blame to protect myself from people, to ward off their probably-bad decisions.
So I think the problem with "wise mind" is that if you don't have it consistently, but only intermittantly, it can put you into a vulnerable position-- because you aren't so quick to disconnect.
Jost
PS is this what we're doing, or are we being more abstract?
Posted by canadagirl on July 12, 2006, at 20:05:38
In reply to Re: Mindfulness lesson 1, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2006, at 11:49:38
I think the "observing" part is the hardest for me. I get so reactive -- react to anything and everything. In fact, already I feel like throwing in the towel with this because I feel I won't be able to do any of it! Oh my! I must really be in big trouble eh! (That's a Canadian 'eh') Mindfulness is such a key principle, I think almost like a foundation to making progress in life. Anybody else have an opinion on this? I think I would be a happier and more accepting person if I practice it.
Posted by fallsfall on July 12, 2006, at 20:22:59
In reply to Re: Mindfulness lesson 1, posted by canadagirl on July 12, 2006, at 20:05:38
Don't give up. Mindfulness was impossibly hard for me, but I could do some of the other stuff.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2006, at 22:31:48
In reply to Re: Mindfulness lesson 1 » canadagirl, posted by fallsfall on July 12, 2006, at 20:22:59
My question is how do you do the observing exercises without dissociating?
Posted by Jost on July 12, 2006, at 23:18:54
In reply to Re: Mindfulness lesson 1 » canadagirl, posted by fallsfall on July 12, 2006, at 20:22:59
Mindfulness is esp. hard when I feel like I need it the most. And it's hardest to stay with the feeling, even if I do achieve it for a few minutes.
I don't really dissociate, I mostly feel bombarded with negative thoughts, which don't stop when I try to observe, or pull away from the negativity.
I almost wish I could dissociate-- maybe there's a way of working back from there, to some feeling, with an element of distance. If you do it slowly, and by small steps.
For me, when I fall back into the torrent, it's like proof that it won't work--that it's too strong for me . I almost feel stupider (bad word) trying again, when it doesn't work.
Has anyone found ways to develop that ability to keep on trying and not get caught up in that thought that having to try so hard and continually failing-- even within a few minutes-- means you might as well give up?
Jost
Posted by Phillipa on July 12, 2006, at 23:28:27
In reply to Re: Mindfulness lesson 1 Â, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2006, at 22:31:48
Good point phillipa
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2006, at 0:17:49
In reply to Re: Mindfulness lesson 1 Â, posted by Jost on July 12, 2006, at 23:18:54
I think that's where the bicycle metaphor comes in. You just can't try it a few times and expect it to work. You have to practice, practice, practice until it's second nature. Boring, isn't it? :)
I found something I could observe without dissociating. I have always loved to sit in the bath and let water run over my hand. I can easily observe the sensations without either dissociating or commenting on them in my mind. Maybe if I can remember that feeling, I can hold on to it when my inclination is to step outside of myself to observe or describe.
Or wait. Maybe that's participating.
Posted by Jost on July 13, 2006, at 11:21:39
In reply to Re: Mindfulness lesson 1 Â » Jost, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2006, at 0:17:49
> I think that's where the bicycle metaphor comes in. You just can't try it a few times and expect it to work. You have to practice, practice, practice until it's second nature. Boring, isn't it? :)
>
> I found something I could observe without dissociating. I have always loved to sit in the bath and let water run over my hand. I can easily observe the sensations without either dissociating or commenting on them in my mind. Maybe if I can remember that feeling, I can hold on to it when my inclination is to step outside of myself to observe or describe.
>
> Or wait. Maybe that's participating.
Looking at the "observing/describing/participating page last night, I was trying to decide if they weren't almost the same thing. Maybe not describing, but observing and participating.If I'm really observing I'm also participating-- not necessarily by actively doing anything. I'm very involved in the moment, and whatever is happening. If I were going to interact or act, I might observe less, and put more of myself into simply doing or saying the thing--
I was thinking about walking through the park. I can be observing the wind, the grass, the people around me-- but where does that become participating?
Maybe when something more disturbing happens-- they become more distinct. Then I would want to observe more, if only to participate in a better way, but being able to move into observing while I'm in the situation? Is there a way of knowing how to observe well enough that you do it, but put it to the side, and participate, while being somewhat in touch with the observing?
So I was trying to figure out if they're supposed to be distinct activities, or to be complementary, or partly flow into one another--
Describing is the most distanced, to me, because I'm searching mentally for words that fit the thing, and that takes me away from it, bringing me to a more abstract place.
Jost
Posted by Jost on July 13, 2006, at 11:26:31
In reply to Re: Diary cards, posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2006, at 22:30:32
The mood card that gg posted above is pretty useful. I think I'm going to try filling that out.
Has anyone started filling out a diary card?
Jost
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