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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:54:18
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by milly on May 11, 2006, at 16:30:57
thanks milly. you have all been so helpful.
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:58:33
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by madeline on May 11, 2006, at 17:12:32
It felt good to read your post. You really helped me feel its ok to talk about this. It was my secret for 18 years. I trust my T. She may be the most trustworthy person in my life right now. Thank you for your support.
Posted by daisym on May 11, 2006, at 19:04:26
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
((((Bent))))
I'm sorry this happened to you. How old were you, if you are willing to share?
I think as we trust ourselves to handle more, more of this stuff wants to come out. I often think that I trust my therapist, I just don't trust myself. Because if he hears it, and holds it, it makes it true. At least for me, I keep going back to the question, "How could this have happened? How can this be real?" Especially the dark, dark, ugly stuff.
I also struggle with the question, "how much detail do I say? What crosses the line for my therapist? Will he hurt like I hurt?" I really don't want to hurt him, or make him worried or sad, or especially, disgusted, like you said. He always tells me that he wants to know, needs to hear the details so he can be there with me and it isn't too much, unless it is too much for me. He is righteous in his anger and his sadness for me, and tells me all the time that what happened deserves his sadness and anger.
I've found that processing certain things happens over several sessions. I think you've already put it out there -- now you need to pick up the ball again. There are no pretty euphemisms for forced anal sex, (which is still rape by the way)-- nor should there be. I think you can say, "I've been thinking about something we half talked about a while ago, but I'm haunted by it and need to talk about it some more." And tell her how ashamed you feel. You aren't alone about that. The shame you feel I know so well. This act forced on another is humiliating and violent and intentional. There is no way to cloud your thinking with "they lost control" or "my body responded so they thought I wanted it." Trust me, I've tried all those excuses and they don't fly around this. Which makes the telling twice as scary because then, at least for me, I have to admit I had no control and that it was abuse. Not too much love, not misguided passion, not an accident. And that about killed me.
I think I'm in the minority that doesn't find the telling all that cathartic. I usually feel physically sick and I'm terrified for days that I'm going to get into trouble for telling. I need a lot of reassurance that my therapist not only believes me, but isn't planning to terminate me because he can't handle the stories. And mostly, I need to hear over and over and over again that it wasn't my fault.
So I'll say to you: It wasn't your fault. You didn't deserve it and you didn't bring it on yourself. Keep yourself surrounded by support and be gentle with your own expectations as you explore this. I've learned to say, "I'm dizzy" or "I'm leaving" and my therapist works with me to bring me back. Usually he will ask, "where are you going -- can you try to come back?" If I say no, I'm up on the ceiling or out the window in the tree, he'll ask if he can join me. And then we will talk about what I see from "up here" and talk about why I needed to move away from the painful material. It is tricky if you don't give off signals or know you are going.
If nothing else, please know that as you try to make sense out of these memories and your need to tell someone and talk about them, we are there with you, holding your hand and lending you strength.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 20:05:14
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by daisym on May 11, 2006, at 19:04:26
Thanks for taking the time to write such a helpful post. It helps to feel others have been where I am. I know what you mean about how more comes out as we trust ourselves with it. This was something I always told myself I'd never ever talk about. But I think several years ago the timing was just right in my life to explore this, and I had a wonderful therapist who has stuck with me since then. This type of abuse occured randomly from age 9 to 12. It was a lot to try to hide in my mind. I did the right thing telling my T. I tend to feel sick too when I talk about this stuff with her. And then I spend some time driving myself crazy because suddenly its all real. But in all that I can usually feel some relief also.
I agree somethings need to be spread out over several sessions. I can only do so much at once. I like what your T does to help keep you there. I will have to explore this with my T. I am thinking about calling her tonight. I have a lot on my mind this week. Its been rough. Maybe leave a message. I just need to feel that connection to her right now (there is another thread above about wanting to call her). Thanks Daisy. Youve helped a lot.
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on May 11, 2006, at 23:46:29
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » daisym, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 20:05:14
I think that this is a situation where you can take in everyone's advice, but then you have to listen to your own heart. If deep down you don't feel ready to disclose more abt this to your T, then you need to take that seriously. Maybe now is not the time.
I was, however, wondering if sharing here on babble has provided any relief for you. Finding out that we feel such compassion for your pain rather than disgust toward you.
Best,
EE
Posted by bent on May 12, 2006, at 6:45:43
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by Emily Elizabeth on May 11, 2006, at 23:46:29
I think it definitely helped to talk about this here. I was worried. About saying too much and I guess I projected my own feelings of disgust onto everyone here, thinking they would think the same of me. I should have known better. It has made me feel a lot better- supported and not alone and mostly that i dont have to hide from something that I had no control over. But my feelings tend to constantly change about this. One day I am confident I can move forward and the next I feel stuck for life.
Posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 7:03:31
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » Emily Elizabeth, posted by bent on May 12, 2006, at 6:45:43
*****One day I am confident I can move forward and the next I feel stuck for life******
Amen! That is EXACTLY how I feel too! It is soooooo hard to come to terms with CSA, I mean really come to terms with it. It feels like such a fight sometimes. But I know that I am fighting hopelessness and it something I am prepared to do.
I have had a hard time remembering exactly what happened to me, as I have learned that large blocks of my childhood are just lost to me. I get fragments here and there, but never the comprehensive picture.
My body remembers, my soul remembers, but my mind (god bless it) is keeping the worst of it from me. But what I do remember is very awful.
Daisy is right, however, you may feel shaky, vulnerable and perhaps even worse after you have shared your story with your T. So keep her close and tell her that you need her to be close.
Keep us close too. We are here. That's the great thing about the internet, someone is always here.
You can share this and be loved.
Maddie
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 12, 2006, at 9:23:27
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by daisym on May 11, 2006, at 19:04:26
> I think I'm in the minority that doesn't find the telling all that cathartic. I usually feel physically sick and I'm terrified for days that I'm going to get into trouble for telling.
I know this is a very personal question I'm going to try and ask, and I understand completely if you do not answer.....Have you ever worked on why you don't feel catharsis? Your described reaction seems very much in accord with what an abused child would feel. Like you're stuck there. Like you haven't yet accepted that it really wasn't your fault. You *are* in trouble for telling, the way you describe it. Or, do I not understand your meaning?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 12, 2006, at 9:27:51
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » Larry Hoover, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:53:15
> your post really gave me a different perspective...maybe i am kind of practicing here. And the cockroach analogy said it all.
> No power in the light.
> Thank you.You're very welcome.
It was my discovery that many, not all, but many of my secrets looked different out in the open. The child me hid the secret, but the mature me rediscovers it. In the context of what I have learned about human experience, my mature self understands those secrets differently than did the child. Stripped of secrecy itself, I mean, they look different than I thought they would. All I needed was better illumination. In the light.
Lar
Posted by B2chica on May 12, 2006, at 10:08:25
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » B2chica, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:50:37
>Thats half my problem tho, when those feelings arise I dissociate. My T says its hard for her to tell when my mind sorta leaves the room but i have never been able to tell her either. I dont know how to stay present. I dont know if she can help with that or not. I guess I am gonna have to stay present and feel through these feelings if I am going to get past them. thanks for your support.
i know exactly how you feel. when i'd even start to get close or she nosed in a little to quickly i would 'fuzz out' but i was frozen and couldn't move or talk so i couldn't tell him. i got better and more able to talk about that, and my T got better at recognizing when i'd 'disappear'. but what usually helped was switching from what we were talking aobut to 'what just happened'. then talk about those feelings instead of others that caused it.
he was wonderful.b2c.
Posted by Daisym on May 12, 2006, at 11:41:54
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » daisym, posted by Larry Hoover on May 12, 2006, at 9:23:27
I might have talked about it before in these terms but I wanted desperately for therapy and my journey to remembering to be an "after-school special." -- You know: there is a deep, dark secret, it comes out, everyone says they are sorry, the "bad" guy is dead or goes to jail, but that is OK because he was more or less a stranger, and the whole family hugs and healing happens. It is just so much more complicated than that. My dad is still in my life and my family doesn't know. I just left a marriage that was edging towards being abusive. And I think a great deal of this for me is my ego is horribly bruised. I keep bumping up against how the csa effected my choices in life, when I would have sworn on a stack of bibles three years ago that I was totally OK inspite of it. I just didn't let it touch me. Wow, is that not true.
So when I tell the stories, they remind me that this will be with me always. I have to figure out how to have a relationship with it, as my therapist says. And you are right, I still have a long way to go to believe that somehow I didn't cause this. There is a very primitive belief that I'm just "bad" and didn't deserve to be saved. I have on several occasions said to my therapist, "where were you?! Why didn't you stop this?" He always responds that he wishes he was there and he would have stopped it. Those have been the most powerful conversations in breaking apart the belief that it was all my fault. I feel so young and unreasonable about these demands but he is very steady and thinks it is OK to be unreasonable about this. I think the shame and self-doubt are deeply embedded in my core. We've spent a ton of time ripping down the defenses to get to this core and now we are actually dismantling the core. But it is very scary to tell a story without a strong self-center. Again, this is why my therapist "lends" me his, until I'm strong again. And like most women who suffered csa, I am really good at intellectually knowing all kinds of stuff that I really don't believe. Like: I know it is NEVER the child's fault. I know that. I just don't believe that it wasn't, at least in some part, MY fault.
I don't know if this answers your question. It occurs to me often that I should just stop telling the stories if they are so disruptive. But honestly, I can't. It is almost like the floodgates are open and 30 years of holding onto it are pouring forth. So perhaps not immediately cathartic but still necessary to detoxify. Does that make any sense?
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 12, 2006, at 12:11:06
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » Larry Hoover, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2006, at 11:41:54
> So perhaps not immediately cathartic but still necessary to detoxify. Does that make any sense?
Yes. You haven't gotten to the catharsis, yet. Thank you for your open-minded response. I understand much better now.
Lar
Posted by B2chica on May 12, 2006, at 12:41:52
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » Larry Hoover, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2006, at 11:41:54
>>It is almost like the floodgates are open and 30 years of holding onto it are pouring forth. So perhaps not immediately cathartic but still necessary to detoxify. Does that make any sense?
boy do you have a handle on your descriptions. i really like your describing it as detoxifying. it makes perfect sense to me. thank you daisy
b2c.
Posted by fairywings on May 12, 2006, at 14:11:19
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
I'm so sorry bent. I can't imagine holding those things inside for all these years. They must weigh very heavily. Do you vent your anger over it? Getting them out might be so cathartic. You trust your T? She won't judge you. I hope you can tell her.
Writing it all out might help too. Or writing about the feelings you have about it now.
fw
Posted by muffled on May 12, 2006, at 18:30:27
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » B2chica, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:50:37
Thats half my problem tho, when those feelings arise I dissociate. My T says its hard for her to tell when my mind sorta leaves the room but i have never been able to tell her either. I dont know how to stay present. I dont know if she can help with that or not. I guess I am gonna have to stay present and feel through these feelings if I am going to get past them.
***Manoman that dissociating thing used to drive me nuts (if you'll pardon the pun). Yeah, its not necc. obvious to others except for me I stop talking, and when my T stops saying what it was that set me off, I can't answer. I can hear her sort of but the words don't make sense. I can see her mouth moving but I'm not sure why its moving. Then she says pleasant 'talk the jumper off the bridge" type talk, and how I am safe and all that. I gradually come back. But not completely really until a couple of hours after appt.
Sometimes I can tell I'm starting to go, everything starts to sounding different and it looks like I'm looking thru glass, then I can say STOP, and shake my head, and my T can talk me back quicker that way.
Dunno if this helps.
Its a fear response, dissociating is. Mebbe if you felt somehow more safe somehow at the time?????
Muffled
Posted by happyflower on May 15, 2006, at 18:38:37
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » Larry Hoover, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2006, at 11:41:54
> I keep bumping up against how the csa effected my choices in life, when I would have sworn on a stack of bibles three years ago that I was totally OK inspite of it. I just didn't let it touch me. Wow, is that not true.
Daisy,
I am kinda going through the same thing (different abuse though) I have admitted it to myself that I was abused and that in it's self was cathartic for me because I needed to pretend it didn't growning up in order to survive emotioanlly. Well now I am also bumping into the effects my childhood had on me as an adult and the choices I have made. I am really angry about this because I also thought I was now okay. But you know what, I AM NOT OKAY. I still need help with the current issues.> So when I tell the stories, they remind me that this will be with me always. I have to figure out how to have a relationship with it, as my therapist says.
My T says the same thing, that you will never forget, it is a part of who you are, but you can become strong because of it too. Silver lining theory I guess.
I think the shame and self-doubt are deeply embedded in my core. We've spent a ton of time ripping down the defenses to get to this core and now we are actually dismantling the core.
Wow, daisy, I feel like we are twin in therapy lately. I think I am now starting to work on the core. Scarey as heck, because I am not comforable talking about such personal primal stuff. But my T says that is what he is there for. I am now ready I think because I am safe with him. I came close to crying today for the first time in therapy, so we must be getting to the inner core of myself.
>
> I don't know if this answers your question. It occurs to me often that I should just stop telling the stories if they are so disruptive. But honestly, I can't.Please don't stop Daisy, you have helped me so much today, words can't tell you how much it means to me that I am not the only one who feels this way. I feel like my flood gates are opening up too, and it scares the heck out of me.
Posted by happyflower on May 15, 2006, at 20:02:34
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
Bent,
What a horrible thing you went through. It really makes me angry that people can be so hateful and abusive to anyone.
You are probably right that you need to get it out, is seems like you must trust your T enough to go this far. I am sure she is thinking of ways on how to help you. I think writing is good, maybe she can read it, since it is so painful for you to read out loud. I am sure she would understand.
Are you having physical problems even now as an adult because of what heppened to you? I am not sure what you were saying. I am so sorry you had to go through such tramatic events. ((((( bent)))))
Posted by bent on May 16, 2006, at 6:59:52
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by fairywings on May 12, 2006, at 14:11:19
thanks fw. i do trust my T very much. you know, i havent really thought too much about the anger. ih avent really ever been all that angry at this situation. maybe i have passed the anger part, or worse, maybe its yet to come. something i should explore probably.
Posted by bent on May 16, 2006, at 7:01:37
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by muffled on May 12, 2006, at 18:30:27
thanks muffled. you gave me some ideas on working through the dissociation stuff. i am glad it helps you sometimes.
Posted by bent on May 16, 2006, at 7:06:13
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by happyflower on May 15, 2006, at 20:02:34
Thanks HF. I appreciate everyones support so much. I dont think I have any real physical problems because of my experiences. Things related to anxiety and depression for sure, but not any real physical problems. For me it just feels like a physical pain sometimes. Something inside of me that is just hurting and I need to get it out. It makes me feel sick sometimes but mostly recently since it has been a much bigger issue that it ever has before.
Posted by bent on May 16, 2006, at 7:21:25
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
I want to thank everyone for sharing their support, advice, and experiences. Its strange how when you finally talk about something like this you can never stuff it back away in that hole your mind that it came out of. It’s like I let this monster out and now it’s following me. I think if I deal with the monster it will go away though. I saw my T today and we touched on this subject again. I had actually had a dream about it and that worked out to be a great way to ease into the conversation. Of course I didn’t bring it up until there was 10 minutes left in the session. I should know better but I really feel that I was testing my safety. I felt very embarrassed and we didn’t even get to the hard stuff. I sat there and unknowingly pulled my arms in to my shirt and just tried to make myself as small as possible. Maybe I was trying to hide? My T thought it was the shame but it didn’t feel like it. It felt more like I was embarrassed and it felt safe retreating into my shirt. This is probably very regressive behavior?? My T said we’d talk more about this next week. I felt so much panic because it seemed like I wouldn’t be able to put it away for a whole week. Like it was too big. Other things I can put on hold for a week but this is the first time something just felt like it was haunting over me and I don’t know what to do with it until then. I already called her once last week and I don’t really want to call her again. I do have a busy week at work anyway so it will go fast. The only thing that bothered me about my session was it seemed like my T wasn’t really supportive. Not that she was unsupportive but I could have really used some extra today. I just wish she would have told me it was ok, or that we could get through this or that she understood. I might tell her that I could use that from her right now. She used to be that way more often?? Ok, I didn’t mean to go on. I really just wanted to say thanks.
Posted by antigua on May 16, 2006, at 7:29:37
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 16, 2006, at 7:21:25
Sometimes when I become too overwhelmed about the csa in session, and I don't know if I can wait until next time, I imagine stuffing the little demon into a box with a lock and key so it can't escape. I imagine that my T has the only key, so I am safe until I see her again. Sounds kind of silly, but it's an easier way for me to put it out of my mind.
antigua
Posted by fairywings on May 16, 2006, at 8:11:18
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » fairywings, posted by bent on May 16, 2006, at 6:59:52
Maybe you're just not one to feel anger. If it's there it will come I suppose. I hope what you're feeling and thinking you can start to process it with your T. She sounds really good, really supportive. It can be so hard to open up and trust.
fw
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 16, 2006, at 9:02:53
In reply to putting it away, csa ***trigger***, posted by antigua on May 16, 2006, at 7:29:37
> Sometimes when I become too overwhelmed about the csa in session, and I don't know if I can wait until next time, I imagine stuffing the little demon into a box with a lock and key so it can't escape. I imagine that my T has the only key, so I am safe until I see her again. Sounds kind of silly, but it's an easier way for me to put it out of my mind.
> antiguaIt doesn't sound the least bit silly to me. It is inspired.
The echo of csa on the present is, at least in part, a visualization. It is more than symbolic to purposefully lock the imagery away until later. It is respectful of the import of the csa, and demonstrates some control over it. I have little doubt about why it allows you to feel safe.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 16, 2006, at 9:17:35
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » happyflower, posted by bent on May 16, 2006, at 7:06:13
> Thanks HF. I appreciate everyones support so much. I dont think I have any real physical problems because of my experiences. Things related to anxiety and depression for sure, but not any real physical problems. For me it just feels like a physical pain sometimes. Something inside of me that is just hurting and I need to get it out. It makes me feel sick sometimes but mostly recently since it has been a much bigger issue that it ever has before.
If I may draw you into my mind for a moment....
The pain you describe. It can be understood, if you accept ideas from other cultures. I am fascinated to read of differing philosophies of living. Taking the bits that I like.
Ghandi, who was inspired to create the philosophy of civil disobedience, among others....Ghandi developed his own "religion", which was based on 91? others. A hybrid. Sometimes an idea from another way of thinking makes such sense..... Cherry picking.
When I read about Eastern philosophies, about the chakras, for example. I can't quite imagine a spiritual philosophy more different than e.g. Roman Catholicism. The latter makes procreation of far greater importance than the experience of the act itself.
The chakras, in particular the second one.... The second chakra involves a focal point on the body, between the navel and the genitals, which is the seat of sexual experience and power. But it also is the seat of the drive to explore, of certain types of creativity. And when that is blocked, and you grow stagnant, undefined pain can arise. Undefined, in physical terms, but not undefined in terms of the body's energy centers.
It fascinates me, that humans can create such divergent world views. It would never have occurred to me to postulate the existence of chakras. But, humans did. And such a world view is entirely consistent with what my intuition (also linked to a chakra, not surprisingly, in the gut) tells me you are struggling to describe. It shows me, this way you describe yourself, it shows me that you are potentially on the verge of healing this pain. Your potential is high.
Geez, I hope that meant something, to you.
Lar
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