![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by pegasus on April 23, 2004, at 12:53:34
In reply to Re: Ts: Field choice *always* = caring? (opinion) » spoc, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 11:58:10
I agree with Dinah. I never saw being a psychotherapist as a particularly high paying job at all. In fact, I'm in grad school now to become a T, and I see it as a huge step down, income-wise from my current job (which is a good living, but nothing exceptional). Aside from the rent and insurance that Dinah mentioned, Ts who are self employed (as most of them are) have quite a lot more taxes than non-self employed people do (self employment tax runs about 13% on top of other taxes). And most of them spend considerably more time on their clients than the 50 minute session. They have to review and plan and consult, etc. A lot of them don't see clients 8 hours a day, so a lot of their "work" time is not directly being paid for by anyone. They also have to participate in continuing ed regularly, to keep their licenses (and they pay for that, although I would hope some of it is a tax write off). It's not just sitting there listening to folks in 50 minute chunks and then running off to the bank, laughing about the $100 they just got.
Also, I really think that a *good* T wouldn't be able to do the work if they didn't have some way to fundamentally care about all of their clients. It would become obvious, and it would be really wearing. Have you ever tried to act empathetic all day to people that you don't really care about? Talk about grueling. The mask would have to slip on a regular basis, I would think.
Just my two cents. Maybe I'm being naive. But I think I'm just not being cynical. And I'm excluding pdocs from my comments. I think they're a different breed.
pegasus
Posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 13:10:43
In reply to Ts: Field choice *always* = caring? (from logic), posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 10:52:44
which party is benefitted by the firm, unencroachable rule that sessions be kept to 45 or 55 minutes? This is admittedly for the T's comfort, not ours, and I'm not sure it's a reasonable thing to "protect oneself" against if that person *really* cares. It sounds more like another industry perk to me. (I assume there are also patients who will say they wouldn't be able to stand going over the allotted time, and they are not who I refer to here.)
In particular, many many patients can't get a lucid or productive line of thought going until 20 minutes into each session (or unfortunately, just don't feel like talking that day). But by design they will often not be directed or assisted with direction during that time. At 20 minutes they may strike their rhythm and undeniably be getting somewhere, then "Sorry, time's up." And the last five minutes may routinely need to be reserved for addressing scheduling, medication or payment details, etc. So that means this patient is netting maybe 20 good minutes each time, then repeating this momentum build up at each successive appointment.
Under this pattern, why wouldn't it be reasonable for that patient to instead request sessions of full 60 minute to 90 minute length? If agreeing to this would be so horrific for the T to endure -- even with someone who barely speaks for the first 20 or 30 minutes -- I don't know to what extent it can be assumed that this is mostly about caring. I don't see how it could be denied that longer sessions would benefit at least many patients immensely, and even change their lives. But instead it is a grave "boundary" issue for Ts, even if compensated well. They wouldn't be willing to tolerate even that much "discomfort." And they'd be free to correspondingly schedule a longer break in between clients to decompress.
I just don't think there are as many disadvantages and sacrifices to choosing this field, or clear evidence that it is mostly about caring, as some seem to assume. The fact that they chose it at all *does* show that they are less likely than the average person to be turned off by, uninterested in, or 'damaged' in their own lives by subjecting themselves to what is often complicated, "negative" subject matter. So to me it seems more like a propensity for ideal working conditions than preservation of their own sanity for them to be so strict that, even when it would be extremely helpful to the party who really needs it, the curtain must always come down at 45 or 55 minutes. How much caring does that show, really? Any individual T could choose to be different on this count, but few do.
I hope I'm not making anyone mad. It doesn't always feel good to look at and rationalize things with this "realism," so I'm not exhibiting coldness, maybe conversely I care and am bothered too much by the way the world works. But am I really wrong in thinking this *is* the way the world works? Really??
(I do realize some Ts go over if they can, but I'm not referring to the exceptions, I'm referring to the rule, and standard procedure.)
Posted by pegasus on April 23, 2004, at 13:16:01
In reply to Re: Ts: Field choice *always* = caring? (opinion), posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 11:23:32
You know, spoc, after I wrote my last post, I reread yours, and I have to agree with a lot of what you said. While I think a lot of Ts work really hard and are very caring people. I'm sure that it's a continuum. And we've certainly heard here about a lot of Ts who have not really been as helpful and concerned about their clients as they could have been.
I think where I get stuck, though, is in thinking about the money aspect. I'm sure you're right that some folks are in it for the money and relative ease of the job (if you see it that way). But I would bet that most aren't.
I've been fortunate to have Ts who really do not seem to be in it for the money. And many folks here seem to have the same. We've heard about Ts giving big discounts, and even free sessions, for ongoing clients who hit rough patches. My own Ts have had very reasonable rates, and could have charged significantly more, based on what others in the community charge. I know Ts who donate hours to community agencies that are doing human service work.
I also know Ts who work their butts off. My own T was back in the office a few days after his second child was born, so his clients wouldn't have to go too long without seeing him. He didn't take much vacation time for the same reason. He always seemed to have thought through my issues beyond our 50 minute session once a week. He talked to me on the phone whenever I wanted. He accepted a lot of anger, resistance, criticism, and rudeness from me without wavering in his support. I think that's hard work, personally.
But your T, spoc, does sound like he might be considering the bottom line more than what you need. So I can understand where you're coming from. That sucks.
I guess there are Ts like you describe, and those like I describe, and so your comments about being wary, especially when you're not sure you're a good judge, are well taken.
pegasus
Posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 13:22:11
In reply to Re: Ts: Field choice *always* = caring? (opinion), posted by pegasus on April 23, 2004, at 12:53:34
Quickly I want to say thanks for putting some encouraging insights to paper on this, because I do need to try therapy again and I am realizing more and more that there is a common thread to how I think which actually says that I fear no one cares; or that that is my own particular "karma" in this lifetime.
I will read over what I could see from skimming are all very good points. But wanted to say right away since I just posted more "realism" (ha?) that again I don't mean to be accusatory or offensive. I forget that my situation is also an extreme because I am an independent contractor who "suffers" through all manner of self-paid expenses due to paying dearly for even minimal basic health coverage. I get no reimbursement for psy expenses or meds, so to me, $340/wk *plus* meds is all out of pocket. So of course makes me want to bawl!
That --> :- ( ///// You guys --> :- )
Posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 13:41:37
In reply to Re: Strict time rules - shows caring? (shorter), posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 13:10:43
Posted by lonelygirl on April 23, 2004, at 13:43:56
In reply to Ts: Field choice *always* = caring? (from logic), posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 10:52:44
FYI - I actually read this whole post (and the other one!). I copied and pasted it into Word and it is nearly 4 pages! Just a couple of things I wanted to add...
> From a strictly logical standpoint, caring can't be *the* main reason all Ts enter this field….When we are considering what we want to be when we grow up, a field in which we could (often) work for ourselves, set our own hours and make around $125 to $190 in 45 minutes would appeal greatly to some for mainly *those* reasons.
==========
You seem to be approaching this question primarily from a financial standpoint. I think there are additional, non-altruistic reasons someone may choose this field. For one, there is a certain amount of prestige in being “Dr. Somebody” (although getting a Ph.D. in any field gives one the title “Dr.,” a psychologist is one that actually assumes a healthcare sort of role). For another, there is a lot of power involved in being privy to people’s deepest thoughts and feelings, and in having the authority to state “why” people think and behave the way they do. Even in “caring” itself, there can be an element of self-interest, in wanting to play a role in others’ lives (be important to others), have the ability to solve people’s problems, and be perceived by others as a compassionate individual.
> I was always fascinated by it myself, and even began college on a psychology scholarship (there’s a clue for you!). I found that my classmates weren't more likely than the general population to be nurturing or caring types.
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I assume you mean here undergraduates majoring in psychology. I would just point out that a lot of those who major in psychology as undergraduates have no intention of actually becoming therapists, and even some who do have that intention change their minds later. So, I don’t think your psychology undergraduate classmates are necessarily representative of the entire population of therapists. It’s possible that only the very most nurturing and caring students are the ones to go on to become therapists (though that is not necessarily true, either!).
> The client isn't looking for, or aware, to the same extent that (i.e.) their sales should now be rising due to that better advertising campaign; their communications network should be streamlined now due to that technical expertise; their vision should be improved now due to that surgery…. But in it we as clients -- more so than other types of clients -- must largely have blind faith that the best effort is being made. Which maybe does reduce the pressure on this type of professional.
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That may be true, but I think in another sense, it makes things more difficult, as it also means they can’t “prove” that the client is really getting any benefit. Also, not all clients have that kind of blind faith. My own psychologist once told me that frequently, people come in expecting him to wave his magic wand and make them feel better, and when it doesn’t work that way, they get frustrated and even angry with him.
> If anything I think that the actual rate of compensation itself is what causes a lot of the conflict in patients over "paying for someone to care." The average price tag seems to make the statement that that is exactly how off-putting the prospect of providing this service would be otherwise.
==========
You could look at it that way, but I think the truth is more that pay is more reflective of the difficulty of becoming a therapist than in the pleasantness of the work. The pay is sort of a reward for the hard work of going through the graduate school, testing, and training necessary to become a therapist. After all, being a garbage collector isn’t pleasant work by any means, but due to the fact that it doesn’t require a lot of education or training, the pay isn’t particularly great (as far as I know). Compensation varies, of course, but it seems to me that the compensation for a therapist is roughly equivalent to that of other professionals with similar educational requirements.
> Anyway, as far as what Ts “go through,” at the end of the day is it really so much “worse” than whatever the industry-specific pressures, hazards and requirements are of any high paying field.
==========
I’m not sure about this. Any field with a high level of compensation is pretty demanding -- you have to earn your compensation! I have read, though, that mental health professionals have one of the highest rates of suicide of any profession. I think it’s a very *emotionally* intense job. Some jobs are very *physically* intense; some are very *mentally* intense (I think this applies to therapists too); but few are as emotionally involved as the therapist’s job. Therapy means taking on other people’s problems -- often their worst problems -- and it has to be difficult to deal with half a dozen or so people’s lives every day. On top of it, it seems like there is a lot of pressure on therapists to be “together,” to have all the answers not only to others’ problems, but also to their own.
> In struggling with my own recent decision whether to quit a certain T, I spent many sessions trying to discuss with him that his may simply not have been the best methodology for me personally… He wouldn't "let me go," and even made my concerns all a function of my other problems, which really twisted and tortured my brain. Finally a third party in a position as good as any to comment had to point out to me not to forget that this was a businessman like any other, who of course did not want to lose an account (and that my account in particular was likely far from negligible towards his bottom line).
==========
Interesting thought -- and I have a different perspective because my psychologist works through the university’s counseling center. I suppose this is one of the advantages to going to the counseling center; he has no financial motivation to keep me there. He gets paid a specific salary, and if he “loses” a client, another one gets assigned. We actually discussed this at my session this week. He told me that he wouldn’t want me to keep seeing him if he didn’t think he could help me, and in fact it would be unethical for him to continue seeing me if he didn’t think it benefited me.
Posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 15:16:47
In reply to Re: Ts: Field choice *always* = caring? (from logic) » spoc, posted by lonelygirl on April 23, 2004, at 13:43:56
Thanks Lonelygirl, more very good points and I know from "reading you" that you try to look at things from all sides and are also not a knee-jerk idealist. I respect that in people!
It's got to be true that a lot of what I've said comes from the perspective of the huge, undispersed cost to me of entering any therapy, as stated previously. And also from my inexperience with getting a diverse taste of it. I was unfortunate to have happened upon a bad match when I was finally, finally ready to commit to it, and that person turned out to be someone who really did not exhibit any of the signs of "working for it" and trying, and definitely not of optionally applying himself after hours to think of ways to help.
It turned into (admitted) psychoanalysis even though that is the opposite of what I said before I even scheduled the first appointment that I was "shopping" for (and not to knock analysis in general, but his wasn't effective for me, nor what I asked for). He truly said virtually nothing ever (except a few words a couple times that showed obvious trips down groundless worst-case-scenario dx roads); wouldn't even react to or give feedback on my own ideas on how I might improve my lot; deflected everything into standard circles so that he really could have been on autopilot and never listening or thinking at all ("what do YOU think it means" and what did it say about me that I wondered, etc.). I often had to recap things for him too. By his own admission he wasn't even good at recalling the wording or exact details of conversations from one session to the next (but also wouldn't answer me in the moment if I questioned something).
He could not answer me when I finally asked very sincerely for him to cite one positive or actionable comment/suggestion he had made or anything at all that he had shown which I could interpret as an attempt to help me or demonstrate effort. He kept saying when I absolutely pinned him on this that he would "have to think about it and answer next time," and ludicrously even that went on for weeks.
I can't stand to ever come out and place blame, but I was on the brink of giving up on myself when I started and had become virtually housebound for over a year, and he knew that. This brush with therapy has left me truly out of faith in myself because he framed it all as only my problem and showed concern for nothing. So I took it as somehow the opinion of Educated Mental Health Professionals Everywhere that I am not someone to be cared or concerned about; or that I either can't be helped or should be able to get off my lethargic, depressed *** (thing Dr. Bob doesn't like to hear) and do it myself. Like if he with his credentials had nothing to say or suggest, nobody must. I don't even think he believed I was/am in pain.
BUT -- many years ago I saw a psychology resident for over a year at her school's sliding-scale clinic, and indeed she was the involved type who clearly expended the efforts and emotions many of you are referring to. From that I see your points and probably wouldn't have gone down the road of questioning her true motives even at private-practice prices. But unfortunately, that ended traumatically too...
At one point she agreed knowingly to also see a friend of mine, which I had always heard that most Ts won't do, for good reason. She found out that this friend and I regularly discussed our respective therapies with her. And in her words before she hung up on me (we had a scheduling matter to discuss) she became "LIVID!!!!" (What else could a realistic T possibly expect -- and my friend and I were both pretty young.) So, as I was the one who admitted it to her, she chose to banish me. And keep seeing my friend, who had begun with her only a few weeks before.
I tend to see everything about that situation, from agreeing to see a close friend to how she ultimately handled the problem she had created, as due to her inexperience at that point. But we had previously *really* connected and she made it clear that she enjoyed me as far as this stuff goes. So if only she knew that to this day it would mean a lot if she'd realize how upsetting that hostile rejection was for me, and need to call me to make it right, rather than brush it off to a "necessary evil" of cutting one's teeth! Surely she must have realized the error in all that at some point. It took me a loooong time to try again.
Quickly, might I throw in that other experiences have included being groped by a family therapist as a child; having a semi-retired high school therapist begin giving strange advice (including that I be allowed to drop out of high school and smoke and drink), then go senile, give in to alcoholism and make crank phone calls to my family once they yanked me out; and a brand new T who one day wasn't in her office when I came for an appointment, and who never returned messages left during the appointment and after to try to find out what happened (I did track her down later and she said it was her problem, and that she is sorry but that's all she can say).
WHEW, sorry, thanks for reading, I know how it can look when pasted to Word! I hope very much to get control of this someday, as otherwise I do think I have some worthwhile things to say and I frustrate the living daylights out of myself. If it's a passionate issue, it's either put a cork in it or let it explode! (But please don't see my name and think *all* of my posts are this long -- they're really not! ANYWAY! I know I have justified nothing here as far as whether it's worth it for me to try again, and know that for the sake of fairness as well as myself, I shouldn't give up on finding a match (or so sez my lip service)! ;- )
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 16:37:46
In reply to Re: Optional sidebar: my T experiences » lonelygirl, posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 15:16:47
I think all will agree that there are waaaay too many rotten therapists out there, waaaay too many who are in it for the wrong reasons, waaaaay too many who bring their own stuff to therapy without making much of an attempt to root it out through personal therapy and supervision.
You only have to read a few weeks archives of this board to see that.
That being said, a good therapist is a pearl beyond price.
I suppose there is some difficulty in determining which is which from within the relationship.
But I seriously doubt many are in it for the big bucks or cushy conditions.
Posted by shadows721 on April 23, 2004, at 17:00:19
In reply to Re: Optional sidebar: my T experiences » spoc, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 16:37:46
I am jumping in here, because I have found a very rare therapist. I have been in very bad way for about a year now. At first I could pay for therapy, but then I became unemployed. My therapists sees regularly at no charge. She has been an angel from God. No, I am not dependent on here or anyone else. I told her that I wouldn't see her anymore due to financial reasons. She wouldn't hear of it.
I think that people sometimes resent having to pay to talk to someone. I know I did years ago, but that was with a very cold therapist. Her boundaries were sky high. I told her that I thought she was like an ATM machine.
Being a t is a full-time and sometimes an on call 24 hour job. This is how they support themselves. It just like nursing. Sometimes, a nurses job is just talking to people and she gets paid too. We are paying for training and education as well.
Personally, I think therapy is what you put into it. Therefore, it needs to revolve around your core issues. If you don't do that, you are wasting your time and money.
Off to the side here, I think therapy is one small piece of the pie. It is a tool to use to help yourself become all you can be. It is our responsibility to meet our body, mind, and spirit needs. That is our responsibilities as an adult.
I am glad there is such a thing as therapist. They help us get out our cognitive distortions from our up bringing and let us decide what we will do with it. It's hard to see ourselves as we really are. It is necessary at times to have an objective point of view of what the heck we are doing with our lives. An objective eye can take the blinders off and stop our lying to ourselves.
Posted by shadows721 on April 23, 2004, at 17:18:59
In reply to Ts: Field choice *always* = caring? (from logic), posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 10:52:44
What's really going on here with all the psychoanalyzing therapy and the therapists? I think there is something deeper going on with you.
Let's just get honest here. Are you getting what you need from therapy? Everything I have read from you is from your head. Where are your feelings? What really going on with you? I think all this psychoanalyzing is a form of resistance and a diversion from your core issue. I think you are avoiding painful feelings.
No, you don't offend me at all with anything you say. I just see this as lesson about the whole therapy process. We can agree or disagree. That doesn't mean anything. What is meaningful is what is really going on with you? How are you doing? Are you avoiding your feelings?
Posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 18:50:10
In reply to To: spoc, posted by shadows721 on April 23, 2004, at 17:18:59
> What's really going on here with all the psychoanalyzing therapy and the therapists? I think there is something deeper going on with you. >
> Let's just get honest here. Are you getting what you need from therapy? >
---I'm not in therapy, and had weird experiences during all of my short-lived attempts in my lifetime. Not running when things got painful, just unfortunate "technical" problems that really couldn't be worked out, such as those mentioned previously; and one bad mismatch.
---
> Where are your feelings? What is really going on with you? I think all this psychoanalyzing is a form of resistance and a diversion from your core issue. I think you are avoiding painful feelings. > > What is meaningful is what is really going on with you? How are you doing? Are you avoiding your feelings? >
Everything I have read from you is from your head...>
---It's startling to hear someone say this because I am realizing more and more lately that I do that, especially since finding this board. I know it somehow, that I speak only from the head and bypass the heart and gut, and probably even miss opportunities to bond with people because of it. But even tho I know I'm doing something to that effect, I don't know what it is, as to me it will look like I put an emotion to paper exactly as I feel it (like in my last two "chapters"). But somehow I know I don't come across as human and vulnerable.
I have emailed with someone from here about this who has basically said, "Post to say when you feel unhappy! When you feel mad! Post about crummy things that happened to you and how you think they helped mess you up! Post from the gut!" But I guess I have to learn that. I'm quick to think I sound like a whiner and a complainer and so I waste much space and time providing a qualification for every lament I almost let myself get away with just spitting out. To leave a spin on things that "I know I'm responsible in the end no matter what the thing is, and I know x,y,z is the better way to look at it." So I can never just say "Damn it, I hurt!!!" Or "I'm really desperate right now!!!" Which is actually something people probably react a lot better to than how I do it.
So I really don't know how to speak from the heart. But if I were to try to here, it would be something like, I do kind of mean it when I say I feel like it is my karma in this life not to be accepted or cared about if I show my real self. I feel like I am banished to the other side of the wall with a glass to put in my ear and listen with while other people support each other and get things from life, but that it is not for me. Yet I do not believe that it is the whole world's problem instead of my own, and know that it indeed must be something in *me* if I feel that people often don't end up really caring. But since I guess that is what I do see, I conclude that people *are* good, but I am somehow just cursed. And bad.
So I guess I bring on the analyzing and rationalizing out of some kind of resentment almost, and simultaneously hope that at least if people aren't endeared to me and don't want to ((hug)) me, I may be interesting to some of them. Being analytical may be almost a weapon for me at times, with which I can show that there is no Santa Claus. But actually it's probably more like I desperately want someone else to show me there is. But I do not expect happiness to fall in my lap -- I have never leaned on anyone and have been an "island" when I'm unhappy.
And yes, maybe often I want to say something and get something out but am afraid to talk about personal things, if revealing a little of them can go so badly or so uncompellingly. Today I think I have been "explaining" another way in which the options in my own personal world feel bleak and are running out. But maybe all I need to say is the last part, maybe that's how I should talk more often. But I don't think I deserve to say I hurt or something hurt me, in fact I disgust myself when I do, and I don't think I deserve to say I need help or to get it either. Where I grew up, seeking comfort for anything from the stomach flu to an agonizing childhood or adolescent trauma usually met with dismissiveness at best and repulsion, anger or ridicule at worst.
I finally did tell my recent pdoc/analyst (and I was very desperate by the time I started with him) exactly how desperate I was. But by his reaction I gather that he felt showing no reaction -- or maybe even belief -- was better somehow. And in my messed up state this made me believe I am sentenced to being tuned out or my character judged if I ever get honest about how bad I am feeling. And that is exactly what I feared in the first place, and why I didn't want to tell him and had never told anyone else.
I still don't know if I'm getting it or answering the question, but I just suspect somehow these tendencies in me come from feeling like I'm on the other side of plexiglas looking in, with my glass to the wall, and I must make sense of it however I can and try to detach from raw emotions instead...
Thank you so much for asking though, I really do appreciate it, and it speaks volumes to me that it's so obvious I talk from the head only. Maybe that means it's something I can learn to change, to connect with people in better ways. And the most ironic thing is that in real life, I shut myself away and won't give many people the chance to show that they care, or even to know what is really going on with me. I guess I don't really want to know the answer.
Posted by pegasus on April 23, 2004, at 23:17:29
In reply to Re: More sidebar (To: spoc) » shadows721, posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 18:50:10
Posted by spoc on April 24, 2004, at 0:06:11
In reply to ((((spoc)))) (nm), posted by pegasus on April 23, 2004, at 23:17:29
Thanks so much Pegasus. It's (obviously) Friday night, and I had just awakened from an unintentional nap to feel that disorientation where you figure out that it's still the same day. And I've been waking up at wee hours lately kind of in a panic or having a revelation that something is over or too late. Then, I may next be struck with regret over something I did. Just now that next thought was worry and regret over all my posting today. And in particular I thought, no! Why did I just say all that in answer to shadows721 (now I regret that too, as I probably will what I'm writing this moment)? The answer to her question was mainly and merely that I analyze and go on and on methodically/perfectionistically from OCD. I was overloaded with somewhat similar threads I wanted to respond to and this is just what happens. Then, deciding to go ahead and post it anyway even though I know I'll regret it is a compulsion, also from OCD...
I felt really stoopid and was sitting here figuratively banging my head against the wall (thinking I should do it literally), when I heard a click. And it was a notice in my mailbox of your post: my first PB (hug)! What timing! I think I could use some constructive criticism from people here at some point, because I don't think I get where I intend to get with them and it feels eerie. There's one obvious component, that's pretty painful because I don't yet know how to improve it. But I won't open that can of peas now and it mostly wouldn't get seen buried in all this anyway. Thanks again, I was feeling very ridiculous and that helped. :- )
Posted by shadows721 on April 24, 2004, at 1:32:32
In reply to Re: More sidebar (To: spoc) » shadows721, posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 18:50:10
I want to show you something in your post. Perhaps you already know this.
"I'm quick to think I sound like a whiner and a complainer and so I waste much space and time providing a qualification for every lament I almost let myself get away with just spitting out." ...Where I grew up, seeking comfort for anything from the stomach flu to an agonizing childhood or adolescent trauma usually met with dismissiveness at best and repulsion, anger or ridicule at worst."
These two sentences went together to me. You explained why you don't express feelings. It wasn't safe to do so while you were growing up. So, now, you are giving yourself negative labels when you do feel things. Whoever was doing this to you taught you to do it to yourself. Try this. When you start to say to yourself you are a whiner or a complainer, try saying, "It's okay for me to express my feelings now."
"I feel like it is my karma in this life not to be accepted or cared about if I show my real self."
Oh, that's not how Karma works. We get what we give out. You are a caring and intelligent person. You will get that caring back if you allow it to come you way. You can show your real self with a safe person.
"Being analytical may be almost a weapon for me at times, with which I can show that there is no Santa Claus. "
You have a tremendous gift with being analytical. There are many occupations that demand this type of gift you have. This can really be used to benefit you. The only way it can be used as a weapon is when you use it to keep others away. You have the power to choose how to use it.
My question, "Where are your feelings?"
Your final reply in the post, "I guess I don't really want to know the answer."
I respect that very honest answer and it's totally understandable. After all, it appears that a person(s) in your family sure had a problem with this. But now, you can free yourself from their believes.
Think about this- When you keep yourself hiding behind the plexiglass, you actually are keeping someone from being with a beautiful person. :)
I know I enjoy posting with you.
Shadows721
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 3:15:54
In reply to Re: More sidebar (To: spoc) » shadows721, posted by spoc on April 23, 2004, at 18:50:10
Earlier today I was thinking how much you reminded me of me. I always felt like I was looking at the world through the window, with my nose pressed against the glass. Wondering what other people knew that I don't. I still get that feeling a lot. But Babble has helped me immensely, and I hope it can help you too. And therapy has helped me immensely too.
If you want constructive feedback, I think this post was magnificent. You took a big chance and revealed something of the real you. It's scary to make yourself vulnerable, but from big risks frequently come big rewards. I feel like I know you better, and I'll bet others do too. You don't seem bad or cursed to me. But then again, you remind me a lot of me. ;)
Posted by spoc on April 24, 2004, at 12:20:39
In reply to Re: More sidebar » spoc, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 3:15:54
> If you want constructive feedback, I think this post was magnificent. You took a big chance and revealed something of the real you. It's scary to make yourself vulnerable, but from big risks frequently come big rewards. I feel like I know you better, and I'll bet others do too. You don't seem bad or cursed to me. But then again, you remind me a lot of me. ;)
---I do think I "went through" something here yesterday, trying to break through the freaking wall. The glass I had in my ear was really starting to chafe, and I realized that no one could hear me even when I did try to speak. I was up and down and all over the place thinking I had done the right thing, then being enbarrassed and mortified. But I think it worked out right in the end, and I am more at peace with the fact that I've now formally and permanently documented here that I'm not so solid and strong/logical after all.
I even wonder about my name choice of spoc sometimes, because it was on the one hand an obvious choice based on how people typically pick names; but on the other hand, I regretted it for reasons including that I later wished I had picked something cute and meaningful to be my visual here (I may even change it). BUT! Maybe I did after all -- who is Spock? The repressed, analytical Vulcan from Star Trek! I had truly not thought of that on any conscious level!
Anyway, I think you're right that PB can help with issues of feeling IRL that we're on the other side of the glass/wall. But I have kind of a paradox going on there. Since my DSL got hooked up last year, and I have long worked at home with complete flexibility, I was sucked into cyberspace immediately like something out of a science fiction movie. (WOW! Star Trek again!!) I proceeded to hide there for marathon stretches, finding a wealth of everything from good information to entertainment and socialization. I maintain that Internet addiction truly does exist and is a disorder in its own right, not in the same school of other default behaviors/obsessions/addictions in which it still gets placed. It CAN be an entire, self-contained world.
The extent to which I have become only a cyber existence is absolutely bizarre. Suffice to say I sometimes don't sleep for 48 hours straight, and simply move my laptop from room to room all day as if it is my oxygen tank. I do have to work online/on a PC as well, which doesn't help. But these days, it's accurate to say that I spend about 17 hours of each day online or on the computer!!!
This has become by far the main reason I am plummeting away from any chance of mobilizing my life, energy and enthusiasm again. I recently commented to someone that I am now nothing more than cerebral hemispheres languishing on a chair, where my physical dimension used to be. I know that as much as I have TRULY obtained much benefit from my online activities, I need help first because beyond the time wasting (exacerbated by the fact that I am so perfectionistic, drone on and on, and can't even type); after a few hours it saps any physical or mental energy I could put into the real world that day, and makes me totally inert. SO!! I have to fight like heck to break the spell and make a connection to the physical world again.
Sorry! Felt like waxing creative today. Hey -- I've never checked out the creative writing board, nor any of the other Internet options/concepts for people who tend to go on at length and should put it where that's kind of the norm. But not safe for me to dabble in yet, it will end up as more than dabbling.
Anyway! I digress, surprise surprise! Thanks so much for your support! : )
Posted by spoc on April 24, 2004, at 12:52:54
In reply to Re: More sidebar (To: spoc), posted by shadows721 on April 24, 2004, at 1:32:32
>> I want to show you something in your post....You explained why you don't express feelings. It wasn't safe to do so while you were growing up. So, now, you are giving yourself negative labels when you do feel things. Whoever was doing this to you taught you to do it to yourself. >
---<<<<You're right, and it it keeps me from winning either way. Negative self-label if I let the feeling rip with no qualification; but when I instead utter the Mature, Responsible, Analytical version of it, in my mind I am laughing ruefully at myself because I know it's hogwash that I am that "highly evolved," or that I derive more comfort from subscribing to the Mature/Rational interpretation of what "appear to be" emotions.
----
> "I feel like it is my karma in this life not to be accepted or cared about if I show my real self." >
---
>> Oh, that's not how Karma works. We get what we give out. You are a caring and intelligent person. You will get that caring back if you allow it to come you way. You can show your real self with a safe person. >
----<<<<<EEEK, you're right, that is what karma means! Hope using that term anyway wasn't a 'Freudian slip' -- but it probably was. Meaning that additionally, I think I don't receive because I don't give. I do try very hard to give, but maybe I suspect it's not enough, is of poor quality, or is somehow not sincere. Or even that 'trying' should have nothing to do with it, it should be natural. I doubt everything about my stabs at interaction, as in "Who the heck am I to think my opinion or attempts to help others have any worth or credibility? I'm only mimicking something I think sounds good, and if they buy into it anyway, I've done both of us a disservice."
---->> My question, "Where are your feelings?"...Your final reply in the post, "I guess I don't really want to know the answer." > > I respect that very honest answer and it's totally understandable. After all, it appears that a person(s) in your family sure had a problem with this. But now, you can free yourself from their believes.>
----<<<<<<I think I was interpreting why my behavior and avoidance up to this point has existed, but I don't mean to say that I now elect to continue to hide. I want to work on it! And I get the feeling that eventually my brain may start to calm down, and let go of anticipating too many additional things every time I want to express myself. Such that I may be more able to cut to the heart of matters, and post more efficiently. Thank you for your insights. : )
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 20:24:06
In reply to Re: More sidebar » Dinah, posted by spoc on April 24, 2004, at 12:20:39
> Maybe I did after all -- who is Spock? The repressed, analytical Vulcan from Star Trek! I had truly not thought of that on any conscious level!
>LOL. We really are on the same wavelength in considering you this weekend. I had wondered whether or not it was coincidence.
Are you a Star Trek fan? I loved the original series. (And the movies, of course.)
Oh no, I don't mean to encourage you to spend more time at the computer. You're right. If you're spending so much time online that it's interfering with your real life, then that's too much time. So as wonderful as Babble is and as helpful as it can be with the issues you are telling us you have, maybe a *good* and ethical real life therapist could be of some help to you as well. Or a real life support group. Or a nice Star Trek fan club. :) (I mean that in the nicest possible way. I used to go to all the Star Trek and sci fi conventions - admittedly more for the TV memorabilia merchandise than for anything else. But I've got Jimmy Doohan's autograph. And I have an immense fondness for Trekkers.)
Posted by pegasus on April 24, 2004, at 23:52:19
In reply to Re: ((((spoc)))) » pegasus, posted by spoc on April 24, 2004, at 0:06:11
I'm so glad it helped! And I feel privileged to have given you your first PB hug. I'd love to respond to all of the beautiful, thoughtful things you've posted here, but I'm scrambling to finish the semester and get ready for a vacation. I am very glad you explained everything that you did. A lot of it sounds very familiar to me. I think I grew up in a similar family. I wish you much luck working it all out, and I agree with Dinah that if you could find a *good* T, therapy has the potential to be extremely helpful in that process. But keep your healthy skepticism about their motives! It sounds like you've already had your share of duds.
pegasus
Posted by spoc on April 25, 2004, at 13:58:10
In reply to Re: More sidebar, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 20:24:06
> > Maybe I did after all -- who is Spock? The repressed, analytical Vulcan from Star Trek! I had truly not thought of that on any conscious level! > >
> LOL. We really are on the same wavelength in considering you this weekend. I had wondered whether or not it was coincidence.> Are you a Star Trek fan? I loved the original series. (And the movies, of course.)>
----<<<<<< Ya know, I've never given the show/movies a chance! Guess I still have much to look forward to and set goals about, huh? ;- )
Sci fi is one of those genres that I don't necessarily feel in the mood for, but if exposed through someone else's choice or insistence, I often find myself enjoying. So I do think I might like Star Trek -- at this point, even the nostalgic feeling of turning on an old show (like classic black & white Twilight Zone) can be neat. Although the times in my life when many of them were originally running (or rerunning, but to me at that age, a first) weren't good, so I don't know what's up with that! Maybe it's the relative simpleness in view of the lack of just one unavoidable, subsequent development -- being responsible for your own destiny!
Anyway, may give ST a shot next time I see it or one of the movies listed. I sure do LOVE Third Rock from the Sun (not similar, of course)!! If John Lithgow ever wants me, I'm his! I assume so much about the kind of personality and spirit he must have, although I guess I could surf for some dish. Not much into dish tho! But, maybe in preparation for my first date with John! :- )
----
> Oh no, I don't mean to encourage you to spend more time at the computer. You're right. If you're spending so much time online that it's interfering with your real life, then that's too much time. So as wonderful as Babble is and as helpful as it can be with the issues you are telling us you have, maybe a *good* and ethical real life therapist could be of some help to you as well. Or a real life support group.---
<<<<< All true (so maybe it's a good thing if I'm a PB See 'n Skip!). Oh, and I posted a response on Psych, about the possibility of setting up either a PB group or one's own independent, customized, casual support group (not what you mean above tho probably). I thought the concept would generate a fair amount of interest -- amongst some anyway, I know it's a loaded thought overall. But I guess not! Maybe I should have put it on Social or Admin, but there's enough overlap to where if it held appeal, it would be taken up (maybe as unrelated to PB even, just a general 'training wheels' socialization idea for people in their own towns. I may sneak it in as its own thread someday, unless I shouldn't). Oh well! But yes, I need to reconnect and make a plan..Thanks for chatting! : )
Posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 19:21:13
In reply to Re: More sidebar » Dinah, posted by spoc on April 25, 2004, at 13:58:10
It is one of the things people don't expect from me. I LOVE Star Trek. I like the original series movies (2,3,&4 are the best) and I really like Next Generation. However, Voyager was pretty good. I like Enterprise, (Scott Bakula!)but it doesn't have the same overlays.
I mentioned the relationship between Kirk and spoc once in a therapy session. Turns out my Therapist is a trekkie too...he talked on and on about how many layers there were to the original series and how we could all learn from the philosophies...it was pretty cute! I would never have thought of him as someone who enjoys ST.
So, you HAVE to watch the movies.
Daisy
Posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 23:50:02
In reply to a trekki I am, posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 19:21:13
> It is one of the things people don't expect from me. I LOVE Star Trek. >
> So, you HAVE to watch the movies.
> DaisyIt was really funny -- I had just posted that I would next time I saw one listed, and then there was one on that night! It was Wrath of Khan. I was enjoying it fine but fell asleep (no reflection)! Woke up with the credits rolling up. But I'm sure I'll have plenty of other chances! : )
Posted by mair on May 1, 2004, at 22:39:41
In reply to a trekki I am, posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 19:21:13
i married a sci fi fan. I never watched the original show much and can't really watch it now because the effects are so poor, but I loved next generation and voyager - I thought both shows developed some interesting characters.
Wouldn't you just love to be a shape shifter?
I've often thought the Borg expression "resistance is futile" had a lot of applicability to my own fight with depression.
Mair
Posted by DaisyM on May 1, 2004, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: a trekki I am, posted by mair on May 1, 2004, at 22:39:41
I always wanted a transporter so I don't have to fight traffic. And a holo-deck so I can escape more easily. Can you imagine being able to live your favorite books? Too cool.
For me "the good of the many, before the good of the few, or the one" is a great phrase.
And sometimes I think the struggle with depression is "buried alive...buried alive!" from ST2-- Khan.
Posted by mair on May 2, 2004, at 0:27:39
In reply to Re: a trekki I am » mair, posted by DaisyM on May 1, 2004, at 23:23:43
> "I always wanted a transporter so I don't have to fight traffic."
How I wish I could say "Beam me up Scotty." And you're right - a holodeck to play out your fantasies would be wonderful.
This is the end of the thread.
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