![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:50:04
That may sound paranoid.
I was talking to my therapist today about my perception that he's always annoyed with me about something. And he trotted out all the usuals. That he only gets annoyed when he thinks I'm doing something that isn't in my best interests (but admitted to having buttons that can be pushed when I pressed him). That our relationship is bigger than my anger or his anger (his personal favorite - it's a goal of his to teach me that anger doesn't have to be relationship ending).
But he used a newish one today - one that I've certainly read often enough. That this was the one relationship in my life where I didn't need to worry about pleasing him or if I made him angry. And it made me wonder.
I know the putative reason is that this is the one relationship where the focus is completely on me and my needs. And the only needs of his I need to worry about is his need to be paid.
But I wonder, is part of the reason also because the therapeutic relationship is at heart an as-if one? That because it isn't based on genuine feelings on the part of the therapist, then I don't need to have him like me or not be angry with me because those things really can't jeopardize the relationship. Because the relationship isn't based on positive feelings on his part anyway. (Although I think positive feelings on the client's part are close to essential).
Am I being overly sensitive here?
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:55:30
In reply to Gardenergirl, may I ask a question?, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:50:04
Didn't mean to pick on you. :) I know you're busy, and I don't want to take advantage of you besides.
Why don't I just make that an open question.
Posted by justyourlaugh on March 5, 2004, at 13:37:00
In reply to Re: Agh, Gardenergirl. Sorry., posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:55:30
dinah,
my t always shows he is annoyed when i try to be funny...
he closes his eyes and looks away...
little bit of humour never hurt anyone.
but i am also paranoid that he hates me...and everything i do is not right..
but i am getting over that because i know he is just a person that is no better than i .
i dont see him every week anymore...
he was stuck in the past..i want to move ahead...my pdoc agreed..
i am way off topic here , sorry..
just always remember no one should hold you captive to your emotions...if he is annoyed...so be it..you dont have to live in his reflection...
your reflection is much more brilliant!
s
Posted by fallsfall on March 5, 2004, at 14:25:44
In reply to Gardenergirl, may I ask a question?, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:50:04
Dinah,
I believe that therapists don't have to "like" you to effectively work with you. But I think that they do have to "care" about you - want good things for you, want you to be happier.
It is possible to want good things for someone who you disagree with about just about everything. You can think their view of the world is completely wrong, but still "care" about them.
The essence of the relationship is that the therapist will help you grow in a way that will make you happier. Sometimes they try to convince us that "their" way of growing would make us happier than "our" way of growing - and that is a fair discussion, but they have to be open enough to see that for US, "our" way really is better. And then they have to be willing to help us with "our" way - because we have the ultimate decision.
My therapist said once "I couldn't work with you if I didn't care about you". That doesn't mean that he likes me, or approves of what I do or think. It does mean that he wants to help make my life better. For me, I think that is enough. That he wants to help make my life better - and that he recognizes that the ultimate decisions are mine.
Is that enough for you?
Posted by DaisyM on March 5, 2004, at 15:48:19
In reply to Gardenergirl, may I ask a question?, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:50:04
>>>But I wonder, is part of the reason also because the therapeutic relationship is at heart an as-if one? That because it isn't based on genuine feelings on the part of the therapist, then I don't need to have him like me or not be angry with me because those things really can't jeopardize the relationship. Because the relationship isn't based on positive feelings on his part anyway. (Although I think positive feelings on the client's part are close to essential).
<<<Dinah,
First, I highly doubt that you can work with someone in therapy for years and not have feelings for them. Genuine feelings, more than paycheck feelings. So I think that while you don't have to worry about your Therapist's feelings, you can rely on your instincts that say his concern in genuine and he does care about you.
In the bigger picture of all therapy, I can't imagine doing this work if you didn't really care about people in general and want to help them. There are easier ways to make a buck.
I told my Therapist yesterday that I needed to stop therapy because I couldn't manage my job, my kids, my husband's illness, home AND therapy. And therapy was the most obvious choice to cut out because I would be the only person impacted. He had a lot to say about stopping therapy, but he had more to say about my version of our relationship and him not being impacted if I stop. He said I was putting myself last again and even if no one else noticed or cared, he did. He said he thought it was a really bad idea to bury myself in work again and he wanted to advocate for the "real" me who was beginning to admit to her needs for support. And he planned to continue to be that support, especially since he felt I did trust and need him. And this realization, conscious or unconscious, made me scared again of needing and trusting him, and stopping therapy was really just trying to run from those feelings. He said that we would go through this a hundred times, but HE wasn't going anywhere. And he said, "no, he wasn't mad or frustrated."
I don't think he would have said all that if his feelings of caring weren't genuine.Plus we talked again this morning, (I had a major audit at work and he was checking on me)and he told me he wasn't mad about wanting to quit yesterday and that he EXPECTED to see me Monday. If he didn't care, i don't think he would have remembered that I had the stupid audit.
OK, I'll admit that I WANT to think he cares. But I really do think you wouldn't, couldn't be effective as a Therapist with out genuine feelings. Your clients would figure it out.
My 2 cents...
Posted by gardenergirl on March 5, 2004, at 19:11:13
In reply to Re: Agh, Gardenergirl. Sorry., posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:55:30
Dinah,
Not to worry. I don't feel picked on. In fact, your post is making me really think. I have company coming over in about a half hour. I will post more later.gg
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 19:44:33
In reply to Re: Agh, Gardenergirl. Sorry. » Dinah, posted by justyourlaugh on March 5, 2004, at 13:37:00
I didn't know that about your therapist. How are you feeling about it?
I'm aware that I have a bit of a problem with being afraid those I care about are angry with me. I know he wants me to work on that. But does he have to work on it so *often*?
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 19:49:52
In reply to Re: Gardenergirl, may I ask a question? » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on March 5, 2004, at 14:25:44
It should be, I know.
But this is someone I've spent nine years pouring my deepest darkest secrets into. I've been completely open with him about who I am. I have grown to care about him as a therapist. And I'd like him to care about *me* as a client, but not just as a generic client, but as me. And yes, I'd like him to like me. Not in the let's catch a movie together sort of way. We have nothing in common that way, other than an interest in theology. And we're not even in agreement on that. :) But in the Dinah is a person that I would miss if I didn't see her any more, and not just for the income stream. He laughed when I asked that and said of course he'd miss me for more than the income stream. But they *have* to say that don't they? I want to *feel* it. I'm good at *feeling* things.
I can *feel* that you like me. I don't *feel* that he likes me.
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 19:54:19
In reply to Re: Gardenergirl, may I ask a question?, posted by DaisyM on March 5, 2004, at 15:48:19
Ooooh, I want your therapist. Mine has never called me unless I called him first. :)
OK, I'll confess that when I used to quit therapy on a semiregular basis, he would spend the "final" session telling me that he enjoyed working with me, cared about me, and would miss me. And I would tell him that I didn't care one bit about him. I still think that that was just his standard closing statement. I never felt that he was speaking any great truth. But I do think that my comments to him stung. He kept reminding me of them years after I had quit quitting.
But I don't think he could possibly be afraid that I would do that again now. I've been very open with him about how much I care about him. And he'd have to be empathy free to not feel that I meant it.
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 19:55:10
In reply to Re: Agh, Gardenergirl. Sorry., posted by gardenergirl on March 5, 2004, at 19:11:13
Posted by fallsfall on March 5, 2004, at 22:27:43
In reply to Re: I don't think it is :(, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 19:49:52
>But in the Dinah is a person that I would miss if I didn't see her any more, and not just for the income stream. He laughed when I asked that and said of course he'd miss me for more than the income stream. But they *have* to say that don't they? I want to *feel* it. I'm good at *feeling* things.
>I can *feel* that you like me. I don't *feel* that he likes me.
I *do* like you, and I'm glad that you know it.
No, therapists do NOT *have* to say that they would miss you for more than your income stream. In fact, in my experience, therapists *don't* say things that aren't true - they *don't* "lie" in order to make you feel better. Sometimes that means that they don't say things that we want to hear.
But, at least for me, it means that *if* my therapist says something that he really does mean it.
I think that you might *feel* his liking more if you didn't think that he had an obligation to "like" you. Even though you try hard to convince me that he doesn't like you, based on what you have told me, it *feels* to me like he does.
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 0:18:12
In reply to Re: I don't think it is :( » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on March 5, 2004, at 22:27:43
I dunno. Maybe it's just something inside me. I'm conflicted about how I feel at him, and there's a constant internal stream of comments designed to weaken my trust (and dependency) on him.
Posted by tinydancer on March 6, 2004, at 1:49:10
In reply to Re: JYL » justyourlaugh, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 19:44:33
This is really interesting, Dinah. I was in the habit of asking my T after every session, "Are you mad at me?" I couldn't help to ask it. I am convinced everyone is mad at me when they aren't.
Have you found out any reasons as to why you struggle with that issue? I was only able to get as far as anger, for me, being a destructive force-being fearful of anger, that it could destroy a relationship.
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 9:23:58
In reply to Re: JYL » Dinah, posted by tinydancer on March 6, 2004, at 1:49:10
My parents were masters at anger. And it was pretty random on my side. But they were so comfortable with anger that it certainly didn't destroy relationships for them.
But I eventually emotionally divorce people who feel unsafe to me - to whom I feel anger. So to me feeling anger = eventual emotional divorce.
I think that's where my therapist is concentrating.
I think he underestimates what safety the skills I learned in childhood about how to read others and avoid anger give me. Or maybe he doesn't but he thinks I don't need them anymore, or doesn't want me using them.
Posted by fallsfall on March 6, 2004, at 9:56:36
In reply to Re: JYL » Dinah, posted by tinydancer on March 6, 2004, at 1:49:10
I have also experienced the "this person must be angry with me" syndrome. For me, it came full force as transference with my first therapist. I was sure that she was angry, annoyed, disappointed and that no matter what I did, I couldn't find the "magic" thing to make her happy. My whole life started to revolve around trying to find a way to stop her from being "mad" at me. This was excruciatingly intense for 5 months, but had probably been going on at a lower level for more than a year before that.
When I switched therapists (because this transference was so painful and she didn't/couldn't deal with it), it was only a matter of weeks before I fell into the same transference with my new therapist. That convinced me that it had been transference with my old therapist - why else would I feel Exactly the same way with my new therapist? He handled it in a very open and effective way. We talked in detail about how I felt that he was mad, what I thought he was mad about, how I was trying to remedy the situation, what in his behavior was leading me to think that he was mad. He then told me as openly and honestly as he could that he was NOT mad - that my perceptions were not accurate. Since my previous therapist had also told me that she wasn't mad, I had a hard time believing him. But he persisted and was able to convince me that he was being honest with me - that he truly wasn't mad. We've gone through this a couple of times now, and I'm getting better at being able to believe that, even though it seems that way to me, that he honestly isn't mad. Sometimes he is able to show me how he sees something from a different perspective than I do, so I can understand better why he truly isn't mad. I am making progress. Now, when I feel like he's mad at me I try to think of other possibilities (what could his different perspective be?). Knowing that there are reasonable explanations that would explain his behavior that don't include his anger allows me to take the incident and put it on "hold". I am able to decide that there is "reasonable doubt", and this allows me to not freak out because I think that he's mad. At our next session, I ask him about it - sometimes this is very hard. And he tells me what he is really thinking and feeling.
Through this process, I have learned that my perceptions are not always accurate, that my therapist is much less prone to being angry than I thought, that it is worth checking things out before going into my "frantic efforts to avoid abandonment", and that my therapist is more than happy to work this through with me as many times as I need him to.
Maybe you can find someone in your life (therapist or another who will be honest with you) who will share with you what they are really feeling when you think that they are "mad".
Posted by rs on March 6, 2004, at 11:47:28
In reply to Re: I don't think it is :(, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 19:49:52
I really found your post inetersting with good comments. Here my therapist once said to me that he likes me. Looked at him and his reply was do you think I tell all my clients that? Sounds like yours does care for you. Just today wrote my T a long letter about many things. One of them was how I feel about him. Always tell him I do not like him. His reply is Yes you do. Well took a big risk and expalined what he meant to me and others. Was it wrong of me. No. Feel like after he reads it the trust will be bigger. Told him that he is part of my life due to one time he said that he hopes that some day that would happen. Told him that he knows would never pass boundaries. And that I like him like a good friend. Do I feel that is wrong? No not at all. He is a very helpful person in life which is giving much hope. And you know just may seem him till the day he retires and do not have any issues with that. Do I considered this transference? Not at all. He is a very special person. Told him that IMO he is a great T not from his education but for him who he is. Dinah IMO if your therapist did not care for you as a person he would not be with you this long. Makes sense? He sounds great and caring. I could go on about how T is just so helpful. No matter what is said he does not turn away. He once was very frustrated and he let me know. Mean the tone of voice and everything. Anyway know this problaby went off the subject but IMO think your T cares for you. Hope you are doing well
Posted by tinydancer on March 6, 2004, at 12:14:29
In reply to Re: mad therapists » tinydancer, posted by fallsfall on March 6, 2004, at 9:56:36
My T wrote me a card. It says To XXXX on the front. Inside it says, "I'm not mad at you, XXX. If I am mad at you, then I promise to tell you, so that we can talk about it until I am not angry anymore."
I used to read the thing about 5 times a day but I don't need to read it as much anymore, mostly because just knowing it exists is all I need to reassure myself.
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 12:19:18
In reply to Re: I don't think it is :( » Dinah, posted by rs on March 6, 2004, at 11:47:28
Posted by gardenergirl on March 6, 2004, at 22:23:40
In reply to Re: Agh, Gardenergirl. Sorry. » Dinah, posted by justyourlaugh on March 5, 2004, at 13:37:00
>you dont have to live in his reflection...
> your reflection is much more brilliant!That is a beautiful sentiment!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 6, 2004, at 22:33:06
In reply to Re: mad therapists » tinydancer, posted by fallsfall on March 6, 2004, at 9:56:36
> Now, when I feel like he's mad at me I try to think of other possibilities (what could his different perspective be?). Knowing that there are reasonable explanations that would explain his behavior that don't include his anger allows me to take the incident and put it on "hold". I am able to decide that there is "reasonable doubt", and this allows me to not freak out because I think that he's mad. At our next session, I ask him about it - sometimes this is very hard. And he tells me what he is really thinking and feeling.
Good for you! That sounds like it must feel good. I'm glad your switch has worked out well for you. I can tell you are insightful, and I'm sure this helps in therapy.
gg
>
Posted by gardenergirl on March 6, 2004, at 23:00:20
In reply to Gardenergirl, may I ask a question?, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:50:04
Okay, I have been thinking about this, and I also looked back in my notes from Psychodynamics. I feel a bit like I am writing an essay for class :-)
First, let me share what I know my supervisor would say. He would say that nobobdy *needs* anyone to like them or to not be angry with them. That is an irrational belief. He is a true CBTer. This kind of statement drives me nuts, and we often debate.
Here's what I found in my notes:
There are really three aspects to the relationship between a T and a client.
First, there is the therapeutic relationship, also called the working alliance. There are several components to this without which the therapy cannot work. The T must be reliable, steady, reasonable, fair, kind, tolerant, non-judgemental, and non-corruptible. Empathy, of course, is the key, IMO. It seems to me that it is within this relationship that the client does not need to make sure the T likes him or her or does not need to worry about the T being angry. I am a big believer in unconditional positive regard. I try to find something likeable about every client I see, even if they are hard to like for whatever reason. It is in this way that I can truly like all of my clients. In addition, if I am angry, it is up to me to remain unconditional with the client. I think in this way, it's okay for the client to be who they are without worrying about the T's feelings of anger or like/dislike. Does that make sense? I think of this as a valid relationship. You could think of it as an "as-if" in that not everyone you meet IRL will always be unconditional. In my life, I think of only a few close friends, my husband, and my T as caring about me unconditionally.
The second kind of relationship is the transference relationship and any counter-transference. I won't go into detail here because it has been covered so much in other threads.
The third part of the T/client relationship is the real relationship. Both the T and the client bring internal things about them like persoanlity, values, styles, etc. In addition, there are external things like race, age, appearance, health, gender, etc. which also contribute to the real relationship. By this I mean that whether or not you "click" with the T may have as much or more to do with the real relationship than the therapeutic. Most of us prefer to be open with someone more like ourselves, as it feels somewhat safer. It is within this aspect that I think that I bring genuine caring about my clients. I like to think that most T's would agree. Someone earlier posted that T's don't *have* to say positive things if they are not true. I have also had a client say that to me, "but you *have* to say that!" My response is always, "no I don't." I do genuinely care about all of my clients. I think it goes along with caring about people in general. But also, I recognize what a gift it is to me that the client is willing to trust me enough to share their "stuff" with me, especially as it is often scary and painful.
So, Dinah, I guess my short answer to your question is that is is both an "as-if" relationship in that you can try out giving up a number of defenses without fear of consequences or repercussions that may occur IRL with people who have their own defenses and stuff. But there is also the real relationship within genuine caring, including missing the client after termination and enjoyment of working with the client exists.
Hope this helps and is not too rambling.
gg
Posted by fallsfall on March 7, 2004, at 9:26:49
In reply to Re: mad therapists » fallsfall, posted by gardenergirl on March 6, 2004, at 22:33:06
Thanks, GG.
"insightful" helps until it becomes "intellectualization"... 8^)
Thanks for your description of the relationships between client and therapist. You bring a lot of knowledge to this board, and speak it in a way that people can hear it.
(((((GG))))) I'm glad you are here.
Posted by Dinah on March 7, 2004, at 10:09:49
In reply to Re: Gardenergirl, may I ask a question?, posted by gardenergirl on March 6, 2004, at 23:00:20
That was exactly what I needed. A structure to help me sort out my tangled thoughts. Because I think I was getting mixed up between the first and third types of relationship. I feel utterly confident in the first type with my therapist. I feel like I've got a handle on the second. I'm aware of the transference in my viewing him as my therapistmommy, and we've thoroughly discussed it.
But it's the third part of the relationship that I'm struggling with now, and he's not very good at helping me distinguish that. Maybe because I'm not very good at explaining. And maybe it's becoming a problem now just because we've been together so long and the relationship has evolved - at least on my part.
I've seen him for nine years, one to two hours a week. One to two hours doesn't seem like that much, far less than I see my coworkers, but it's such an *intense* one to two hours.
And my feelings for him as a fellow human being have evolved in a way that would be natural and nonthreatening in a normal, even work type, relationship. But that seem threatening in the context of a therapeutic relationship.
I've seen him tired and sick and when he really shouldn't be at work. I've seen him happy and humming. I've seen him struggle to express himself and struggle to overcome negative feelings. I know that he has a tendency to get crabby when he's overworked. And am glad that he doesn't try to do too much anymore. I noticed that he got a bit depressed around his birthday, until he got married and now he doesn't anymore. And I'm glad because that means he must be content now. I've grown to see some of the things that originally annoyed me (nose picking, his love for "things", his perfectly shiny shoes and pressed clothing, and the fact that he must get a haircut at least weekly) as charming little boy facets of his character.
In short, I've grown to care about him as a person. Not in that I want to IM him every day, or go to restaurants with him. He doesn't use the internet. :O He watches all the wrong TV shows. :O His idea of what's fun is so removed from that of my husband and I that I wouldn't want to hang out with him. But I care about him.
And with that caring comes a desire not to displease him, and perhaps a desire to please him as well. And he uses that when it suits him. He knows that I fight self injury more because he doesn't want me to do it than for any reason of my own. And it hurts when he's angry with me.
And somehow his saying that I didn't need to worry about making him angry or pleasing him seemed to discount that third part of the relationship. And that hurt, I guess.
Because in some ways, I do know he's engaged at the third level, though not as much as I am. He stayed to keep my appointment through threatening weather the last day at his old office. I asked why he didn't cancel, since the rest of the office had shut down, and he answered that he knew the office meant a lot to me and he didn't want me to lose my last chance of seeing it. In fact, during those last days at the old office, he showed in a lot of ways that he felt some fondness for me. Waxing nostalgic I guess. But now in his shiny new office he seems more distant.
He says he feels some fondness for me, and I suppose that may be true. If only for longevity. :) I'm his longest term client by far.
But again thank you for your answer. I'm going to study it, try to sort out my thoughts, and decide if it's something that's appropriate to bring up with him.
(I can't share this post though. I can't let him know I tell you guys about the nose picking.)
Posted by gardenergirl on March 7, 2004, at 12:58:22
In reply to Re: Gardenergirl, thank you so much., posted by Dinah on March 7, 2004, at 10:09:49
Dinah,
I'm glad I could help. I was just thinking as I read your post that you should print it out for him as it explains beautifully what you are struggling with. But then I read the end...LOL.
You could always edit out the nose-picking! If only you could IRL.You mentioned that over nine years 1-2 hours per week doesn't seem like that much. But how many of us see friends that often for so long? I think your real relationship is significant. How could you not have that after nine years? And how could he not? I'm sure he cares about you. And his use of your caring about him to help with SI is a good strategy, IMO, but I can see where it is also manipulative.
But I can also see how his comments from relationship 1 can hurt when put in the context of relationship 3. It is a complicated relationship, especially given the longevity and your ability to care for others.
As much as it hurts at times, I'm glad you have such a profound relationship with your T.
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 7, 2004, at 12:59:24
In reply to Re: mad therapists » gardenergirl, posted by fallsfall on March 7, 2004, at 9:26:49
Thanks so much. Your post made me smile from ear to ear. I'm glad you are here too!
gg
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.