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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on February 16, 2004, at 15:21:31
My husband and I are seeing a marriage counselor, and I'm in individual therapy. All good, right? I know I'm making progress, and I know that I'm making rapid progress in some areas. Obviously, not there yet, but on the long and winding road.
Here's the problem: my husband keeps saying things like, "Well, I don't mind going to counseling, but we're really only there for *your* problems..." Leaving aside all the things that immediately come to mind -- like cattle prods and 2x4s -- I want some ideas about how to respond to this.
More specifically, here are some of the things I've done to try to improve matters:
I'm working very hard to express both the larger and smaller issues involved in day to day life in a neutral manner. I'm trying to tell him when I'm approaching an issue in a new way, asking him for specific feedback about it, and trying to modify my own behavior. When he hits one of my hot buttons -- which he does a lot -- I try to tell him what it is that's so sensitive about it, and then ask him to modify his behavior Next Time, without beating him up for what has already happened This Time. I'm also trying to tell him about things that are beginning to bother me, rather than waiting until I'm ready to try the 2x4.
Here's an example:
This morning, I asked him to vacuum "The Upstairs." On the advice of a very wise woman, who knows who she is and has my thanks, I asked him please to do it before lunch. Before asking for something so specific, I sat down and talked to him about it. I told him that often, when I ask him to do something like this, my next chore is dependant on his chore being done first, so that, when he puts things off indefinitely, it stalls me in my chores. I also talked to him about the process of me asking for him to do something specific within a specific time period. When he kept on saying, "yes. yes. yes." I asked him if that meant, "Yes, I understand what you're trying to convey" or "Yes, I agree that that will be a plan to try out." He said, "Yes to both of those." So, that's what I mean about talking about the larger issues as well as the specific item.
The problem is, I don't trust him to carry through. And I don't trust him to take it seriously. And when he says that he does take it seriously, I don't trust that. And, of course, I'm not entirely sure he sees marriage counseling as something that *he* needs to put any effort into, besides indulging me.
C'mon, gimme all you got!
(And take it as a compliment that I'm posting this. I'm not very good at telling others about my feelings, or about the sorts of things I've just posted. Guess that trust stuff is building, huh?)
Posted by DaisyM on February 16, 2004, at 16:57:57
In reply to Marriage counseling and individual therapy, ideas?, posted by Racer on February 16, 2004, at 15:21:31
Well, you didn't say if he did or didn't get the vacuuming done...
It doesn't really matter if he thinks you are going for "your" troubles, he loves you enough to be going. Your Therapist should be handling this attitude. Does she know about it? (I assume you are receiving individual counseling from someone else? ) And like all humans, habits are hard to break so you have to keep asking.
Didn't get the Vacuuming done? "Honey, since I was going to dust after you did the vacuuming and it isn't done yet, I'll go ahead and water the palnts downstairs and if you wouldn't mind, just dust when you get done." No nagging, just matter of fact.
This is way easier said than done, of course! OR, " Honey, did the vacuum give you any trouble upstair? Last time I used it I really had to keep shaking the hose..." Note: I did not say, did you finish? Or when are you going to finish?
*sigh* This is why all women need wives.
Posted by fallsfall on February 16, 2004, at 22:14:38
In reply to Marriage counseling and individual therapy, ideas?, posted by Racer on February 16, 2004, at 15:21:31
Racer,
I hope that you can learn from my mistakes and pain.
My husband went to individual therapy (and the 4 of us met a number of times) and to couples therapy with me. He dutifully went and talked, but didn't believe that he needed to make any changes. He was just there "for me". When I announced in Couples Therapy that I wanted a separation he was truly amazed. He did not see it coming. I still don't know what he thought we were doing in Couple's Therapy.
So, I guess my advice would be to somehow make it clear that you are expecting him to change some of his behaviors - because his behaviors are not perfect. If he is like my husband, you will need to be almost cruelly blunt. You might also need to say that if his behavior stays the same that you think the marriage is in jeopardy (if that is true) - or whatever your bottom line is.
There is a book, "The dance of anger", that isn't about anger. It is about relationships. And it talks about how when one person changes in a relationship that the other person ALSO HAS TO CHANGE - because otherwise the relationship becomes unbalanced. Could the two of you read that book outloud together? The book will show that, even if he HAD no problems, that if YOU are changing, that he will have to change, too.
I couldn't believe it when my husband was surprised that I had had enough - I thought I had been really clear. I wish you luck!
Posted by Racer on February 17, 2004, at 0:58:08
In reply to Re: Marriage counseling and individual therapy, ideas? » Racer, posted by fallsfall on February 16, 2004, at 22:14:38
With an ex-boyfriend/live-in/fiance. We were in counseling together, and the day I told him -- in therapy -- that I was leaving him, he told me that he was finally ready to set the date. The therapist told us that she had been able to see both those events coming, but was more sure that he was finally ready to set the date.
By the way, just to make you absolutely snort milk across the room if you're drinking it while reading, on the way out the door, he grabbed me in a big hug and said, crying, "Will you still pick out my suits for me?"
He wasn't a bad guy, just dumb as a flat rock. His lips moved when he watched TV...
Part of the problem is that I can't leave my husband, and he can't leave me. I could tell you everything, but then the FBI would get involved, and have to turn it over to the NSA, and by the time they figured anything out it would be a new century.... (OK, the FBI part just struck me as funny to put in there. The real story has to do with economic need, emotional need, immigration status distruption, and one of those facts that I sometimes find myself overlooking: I love my husband very much, and can't imagine not being part of his life.)
(On the other hand, I can imagine very graphically having some other man in my *bed*, but that's another story altogether...)
Thanks for telling your story. I'll bet there are others reading this saying, "Wow, my ex did that, too..." or "She thinks I'd snort milk over a little thing like that? She should hear what mine did..."
Posted by shortelise on February 17, 2004, at 1:56:43
In reply to Been there myself, done that myself... » fallsfall, posted by Racer on February 17, 2004, at 0:58:08
did he vacuum?
My husband just naturally began to change as I shared the stuff I was learning in therapy, and as I changed my behavior toward him. And especially as he saw me changing. He's sees therapist now too, though, to deal with the things that have come up for him.
Would it be simpler to let him think that it's all about you? I mean, does it matter what his motivation is, as long as he moves in a direction that's healthy for your marriage, and, I suppose, for him? It's not a lack of transparency. It's accepting that he needs a different motivation to change than you do, perhaps.
I don't know the answer to chores. My husband's more consistent than I am, though I don't think it's in the masculine DNA to comprehend what constitutes a clean toilet. My little theory about that is that man has evolved with an ability to do things around the house just badly enough that he's never again asked to do that particular job. I practised this masculine habit as a child, but it seems that it's considered a curable ill in a girl child. I was cured.
Hope this doesn't seem like nonsense.
ShortE
Posted by fallsfall on February 17, 2004, at 6:19:30
In reply to yeah, BUT, posted by shortelise on February 17, 2004, at 1:56:43
Your husband could give a lecture on why "Change is Good for Husbands". I bet there would be lots of husbands who could use that. My husband was an Ostrich. He figured that if he stuck his head in the sand that everything would go a way and he wouldn't have to make any changes. He was just going to wait out whatever changes I needed to make and then he assumed that life would go back to the way it was.
P.S. My husband was a househusband for 10 years, so he did vacuum and do laundry and cook. He just never changed.
Posted by shortelise on February 17, 2004, at 14:58:43
In reply to Re: yeah, BUT » shortelise, posted by fallsfall on February 17, 2004, at 6:19:30
I feel naive.
ShortE
Posted by pegasus on February 17, 2004, at 15:32:51
In reply to Marriage counseling and individual therapy, ideas?, posted by Racer on February 16, 2004, at 15:21:31
About being in therapy for "your problems", the whole deal with couples therapy is that couples, and families, and all kinds of groups of people have a way of functioning that is constructed together. That means all the people participate in developing this structure or dynamic, whether they realize it or not. So, if any person has a "problem" with that dynamic, all of the people who constructed it together need to take a look at it, and build a new structure/dynamic. Am I making any sense?
It's totally common that there might be one person in the family who is identified as "the problem". But usually they are just the one chosen as the *identified* problem. But their problems almost always arise out of a problem with the underlying family structure. For example, my abnormal psych prof told this story about a family that she had treated that had a kid with a brain injury. So the kid was having trouble in school. The parents brought him in to therapy and said, basically, that the therapist needed to fix the kid because he's disrupting the whole family. Well, it turns out that the dad is having affairs and the mom is alcoholic. And yet, they identify their kid as the person who needs therapy. You know? As if any therapy is going to make him a normal well adjusted child with that other stuff going on in his family.
So, if you are unhappy and your husband is happy, that doesn't mean that you have a problem and he doesn't. It means that the two of you together have created a family structure that works for him but not for you. So, you both need to look at how that happened, and how you can modify the family structure so that you are both happy.
At least, that's my understanding.
- p
Posted by fallsfall on February 17, 2004, at 17:44:41
In reply to Re: yeah, BUT, posted by shortelise on February 17, 2004, at 14:58:43
No, you aren't naive. You are lucky.
Posted by Racer on February 17, 2004, at 18:25:43
In reply to Re: Marriage counseling and individual therapy, ideas?, posted by pegasus on February 17, 2004, at 15:32:51
> About being in therapy for "your problems", the whole deal with couples therapy is that couples, and families, and all kinds of groups of people have a way of functioning that is constructed together. That means all the people participate in developing this structure or dynamic, whether they realize it or not. So, if any person has a "problem" with that dynamic, all of the people who constructed it together need to take a look at it, and build a new structure/dynamic. Am I making any sense?
>You must be making sense, because I've said the same thing countless times, both to my husband and to friends and their husbands, although never so concisely nor so well. Thank you.
> It's totally common that there might be one person in the family who is identified as "the problem". But usually they are just the one chosen as the *identified* problem.
>Oh, yeah, in spades. See, that's always been my role in my family. And, despite what my T says about my digressing too much, it really does go back to my Great Grandparents' generation. It's sort of like our nation's current economic snarles being the result of several administrations, rather than just GWB. You can't take me out of context and see it, but that doesn't mean that it isn't real when I'm in context. (Does that make sense?)
Anyway, my mother was her grandfather's favorite. Said grandfather had *all* the power in the family, the strongest personality, the money, etc. No one could criticize my mother, because she was his favorite. So, instead of criticizing her, everyone attacked her indirectly -- through me. I was criticised in ways that reflected her alleged lack of parenting skills, and she would tell me that it was only their way of trying to hurt her, but the message was still there that I had to protect her. Great, huh? I'm a middle aged woman, I have accomplished many pretty unbelievable things, I have many small talents, and I'm still the designated hittee, if you will, of the family. Even younger family members feel that they have the right to attack me at family functions -- like Christmas dinner -- without any fear of reprisals.
> So, if you are unhappy and your husband is happy, that doesn't mean that you have a problem and he doesn't. It means that the two of you together have created a family structure that works for him but not for you. So, you both need to look at how that happened, and how you can modify the family structure so that you are both happy.
>OK, now I'm pulling out my hair. My husband is not happy. We do not have a structure that works for either of us. I may be the problem in his eyes, but he's also part of the problem in my eyes. The biggest difference is that it would take a geologic event to move him more than a millimeter.
Example: He's been having pains in his chest. Does he tell me? Oh, no, because I'm too fragile, and it might send me over the edge. Finally, he tells me, and we go together to see a cardiologist -- that appointment was the first time I'd heard the actual symptoms, on the right side of his chest -- who says, "Well, your heart is just fine, but you're underweight and need to start exercising regularly in order to keep it that way." Never mind for the moment that I've told him for years that he *isn't* overweight, he's just out of shape and needs to exercise. Last night, while I was doing my own pathetic exercise routine, he came out to tell me not to do it (another story), and then we sat down to talk about getting to exercising together. (For one thing, I do have a good understanding of exercise needs and how to fill them, which he doesn't.)
The talk we finally had did finally get us somewhere, but his basic first response was, "I'm having a pain in my chest that hasn't been diagnosed, I know all I need to know about exercise, and I shouldn't do any because it's bad for me and because I'm way to exhausted all the time to do it -- but I'm such a lazy butt that I waste entire weeks without doing anything, but I can't/won't do anything about it." Remind me again, why don't I strangle him? (Oh, yeah, that's right: husbands aren't in season right now, so I can't get a hunting license...)
The talk, by the way, included the fact that I was frustrated beyond belief by his utter unwillingness to do *anything at all* to try to improve the situation for either of us. And then I reminded him that I really and truly do know lots and lots about conditioning and exercises -- even showed him a few that he *can* do, instead of the things he says he should be doing and *can't* do. (He's not strong enough to do a lot of the sorts of exercises he thinks he should be doing. I know a lot about low stress starter exercises.)
I'll let you know what happens.
> At least, that's my understanding.
>Yeah, that's only on accounta you're so smart. If you weren't so smart and so skilled, you wouldn't have that sort of insight and communication skill.
;-D
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