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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tabitha on October 4, 2003, at 23:55:53
Well I thought discussing the change in our sessions would mean a change, but the last session she was once again much more confrontational with me than usual. She's confronting me with things that I don't think are true. So I'm spending energy fighting those ideas, and losing faith in therapy, and in her. It seems like she's seeing me in an unfair negative way. She also said I'm doing self-destructive things as a way of acting out anger at her. All that does is make me want to stop being honest about the things she labels self-destructive. This is the first time I've seriously considered hiding things from her. I actually did tell a little lie, to hide some of that stuff, after she told me this theory.
It's very confusing. If I accept what she says, I feel smaller and sicker. And guilty. That can't be a good outcome, can it? I'm so suspicious of any belief system or organization that wants you to think you have problems you aren't even aware of having, so you'll need them to cure you.
I've always thought the answer to conflict with the therapist is always talking it out in session. But after I did, she said that being in the group was hurting our relationship, so maybe group wasn't good for me. Right now I feel like the group is helping me more than her, so I don't want to say anything to make her throw me out. It felt like talking it out made it worse-- and she didn't let up. She also just didn't seem to know what to do about the conflict. She asked me to talk about what it felt like to be mad at her. She asked me what I needed from her. Isn't that what therapists ask when they don't know what to do with you?
This sounds really awful-- if this were someone else's story I'd think their therapist sounded pretty messed up and maybe unethical. I've been seeing this therapist ten years and had complete trust in her. Nothing this bad has ever come up before, so it's hard for me to accept that it's happening.
I've trusted her to the point of accepting her view of me and other people over my own-- I assume her judgement is better where emotional issues are concerned. I realize that's a big trust to give someone, but it seemed safe til now. Now she's telling me things I don't think are in my best interest to accept-- and that just make me think-- how can she think that of me? Doesn't she know me any better? And why is she being so hard on me? Especially when the confrontational approach clearly isn't helping.
It really seems like she has some personal issue with me. But how can I ever know?
The other odd thing. At the end of my last session, we forgot to set up my next one. I don't have a regular time slot at this point-- I've been hopping around to fit her schedule. We've been setting it up at the end of every session. So as of now I don't have a next appointment. I don't even want to call to set one up.
I wonder if it's just time to leave. Of course I always thought I'd terminate once I'm all fixed and happy and healthy and don't need any more therapy. That's definitely not where we're at.
Is it possible I could have 10 years of therapy and then the relationship could just quit working?
Posted by HannahW on October 5, 2003, at 0:54:08
In reply to More conflict with my therapist, posted by Tabitha on October 4, 2003, at 23:55:53
> It's very confusing. If I accept what she says, I feel smaller and sicker. And guilty.
Is it that she's still confronting you about your interactions in group? Or is it something else?
> I've always thought the answer to conflict with the therapist is always talking it out in session. But after I did, she said that being in the group was hurting our relationship, so maybe group wasn't good for me.Haven't you only been to two group sessions so far? That seems awfully soon to make judgements about how well it's going. Especially since your second session was so different from your first one. Did she notice that?
>She also just didn't seem to know what to do about the conflict. She asked me to talk about what it felt like to be mad at her. She asked me what I needed from her. Isn't that what therapists ask when they don't know what to do with you?
Not in my experience. My therapist makes me voice what I want from her and then refuses to give it to me. (See above post, Therapy Can Be So Cruel) It's some Freudian technique. Nice, huh?
Was everything going perfectly before you started group? Or were things starting to be a little shakier? I hope you don't mind all of my questions. I'm trying to get a clearer picture of what's happening.Could there be any truth to what she says, but you don't want to accept it? Or is she completely off base?
My initial thoughts are perhaps after 10 years, she thinks you're ready to make much greater strides toward recovery, but that she has to push you to make them. But if her pushing makes you drop out of therapy, then it's not exactly working the way she'd hoped.
Ten years is a long history to throw away based on two or three bad sessions. I'd call her to make an appointment, but tell her you'll only come if she promises not to be like that.
Another alternative, and perhaps this one is even better, is to get a consultation. See what another therapist thinks.
P.S. I notice you're a night owl too!
Posted by Adia on October 5, 2003, at 2:45:02
In reply to More conflict with my therapist, posted by Tabitha on October 4, 2003, at 23:55:53
Hi Tabitha,
This sounds so confusing...I am sorry..
I agree with Hannah that 10 years is a long time to give up a relationship based on what has happened lately...
THere have been times when my T was pushing me and it hurt me terribly and I thought there would be no hope and I would lose the safety I felt in our relationship but in the end we managed to talk it over and I found out that even if the way she chose was not the right one, she wasn't trying to hurt me but had her reasons..and in the end I could work it out with her and then things went better and actually what happened brought us closer....
I think you should try to tell her how this is making you feel...that this confrontational style isn't helping you...
I would try to really talk this over with her again...till you two can work it out...
I guess I'd call and set up an appt but I would tell her I am not feeling well and I am feeling very scared because of the way things are going between us..or how I feel she's not so with me or is being hard on me...
THat's what I'd do...
I do believe it's a long time to give up now....
I went through some hard times with my therapist, in which I truly doubted if we were going to be able to work together..and those moments helped our relationship grow in the end even though I felt I was hanging by a thread when it happened.
I do hope that you can work this out with your therapist...
Maybe she's just trying to push you or maybe she's making a mistake ...and you are just not connecting lately ....I do hope you can work it out with her...
Let us know how it all goes...
sending you my support,
Adia.sorry if I didn't make much sense..it's 5 am here and haven't slept at all ... but wanted to reach out to you :-)
> Well I thought discussing the change in our sessions would mean a change, but the last session she was once again much more confrontational with me than usual. She's confronting me with things that I don't think are true. So I'm spending energy fighting those ideas, and losing faith in therapy, and in her. It seems like she's seeing me in an unfair negative way. She also said I'm doing self-destructive things as a way of acting out anger at her. All that does is make me want to stop being honest about the things she labels self-destructive. This is the first time I've seriously considered hiding things from her. I actually did tell a little lie, to hide some of that stuff, after she told me this theory.
>
> It's very confusing. If I accept what she says, I feel smaller and sicker. And guilty. That can't be a good outcome, can it? I'm so suspicious of any belief system or organization that wants you to think you have problems you aren't even aware of having, so you'll need them to cure you.
>
> I've always thought the answer to conflict with the therapist is always talking it out in session. But after I did, she said that being in the group was hurting our relationship, so maybe group wasn't good for me. Right now I feel like the group is helping me more than her, so I don't want to say anything to make her throw me out. It felt like talking it out made it worse-- and she didn't let up. She also just didn't seem to know what to do about the conflict. She asked me to talk about what it felt like to be mad at her. She asked me what I needed from her. Isn't that what therapists ask when they don't know what to do with you?
>
> This sounds really awful-- if this were someone else's story I'd think their therapist sounded pretty messed up and maybe unethical. I've been seeing this therapist ten years and had complete trust in her. Nothing this bad has ever come up before, so it's hard for me to accept that it's happening.
>
> I've trusted her to the point of accepting her view of me and other people over my own-- I assume her judgement is better where emotional issues are concerned. I realize that's a big trust to give someone, but it seemed safe til now. Now she's telling me things I don't think are in my best interest to accept-- and that just make me think-- how can she think that of me? Doesn't she know me any better? And why is she being so hard on me? Especially when the confrontational approach clearly isn't helping.
>
> It really seems like she has some personal issue with me. But how can I ever know?
>
> The other odd thing. At the end of my last session, we forgot to set up my next one. I don't have a regular time slot at this point-- I've been hopping around to fit her schedule. We've been setting it up at the end of every session. So as of now I don't have a next appointment. I don't even want to call to set one up.
>
> I wonder if it's just time to leave. Of course I always thought I'd terminate once I'm all fixed and happy and healthy and don't need any more therapy. That's definitely not where we're at.
>
> Is it possible I could have 10 years of therapy and then the relationship could just quit working?
Posted by fallsfall on October 5, 2003, at 7:51:45
In reply to More conflict with my therapist, posted by Tabitha on October 4, 2003, at 23:55:53
What a hard time.
It is possible for a good therapy relationship to go bad (I left after 8 1/2 years - very painful). But it does seem a bit early to assume that. I was as clear as I could be with my therapist, but I really didn't know what was going on - so it was hard for her to understand. You have a pretty clear idea of what she is doing and how it affects you. As painful as it is, I would confront her right back with that information. Ask her why she thinks that what she is doing is helpful. Maybe the two of you see the interaction differently. 10 years is a long time to throw away.
If you think that she has heard your point of view, and you believe that you are open to hearing hers, and you are still in a lot of pain over the relationship, then get a consultation. You can either ask her to refer to you to someone, or you can find someone on your own. I went to see an old group (!?) therapist - so it was someone I knew, but hadn't seen in 7 years or so. She was incredibly helpful. She calmed me down, helped me to identify my point of view, gave some possible explanations for my therapist's point of view. All in 50 minutes. It gave me confidence to go on.
I decided to leave (the pain was too much and it wasn't getting better, I was suicidal (the worst I have been) and thinking about changing therapists made me feel better. My new therapist is SO different - Man vs. Woman, Psychodynamic vs. CBT, deep vs. logistics, confident in me vs. supportive (but he hasn't seen me flounder yet - this may change), pushy vs. let's see what happens. It is so different, but I think it is what I need now.
I think that my old therapist was really good for me for 7 years, but then something happened and we stopped being a team. Changing therapists was very good for me. But I fought to stay with her for 1 1/2 years, and the last 4 months were agony.
Make sure you take the time to work it out with her. If you decide to leave, you need to know that you have done all that you possibly could (it is sort of like a divorce).
(((((Tabitha)))))
Posted by Poet on October 5, 2003, at 12:12:09
In reply to More conflict with my therapist, posted by Tabitha on October 4, 2003, at 23:55:53
Hi Tabitha,
I've only been in therapy for a year so I'm not an expert on when to call it quits and find a new therapist. I almost quit last week because I felt it just wasn't working and giving me what I need.
My therapist only pushes me when she can't get me to answer. It's not a threatening confrontation, it's more of "that didn't answer my question, and you know it."
I would make an appointment with her and tell her at that time you are thinking of ending therapy. Then she'll be prepared.
Hope this helps.
Poet
Posted by Tabitha on October 5, 2003, at 20:36:54
In reply to Re: More conflict with my therapist, posted by HannahW on October 5, 2003, at 0:54:08
Thanks. I know I left out many details of the story-- it's hard to even sort out. I'm kind of embarrassed to say what the issues are. She says I hate men. I just can't own this feeling. Now if I have any complaint toward men, she turns my complaint back against me.She's gotten really confrontational with my reactions to the men in the group. I don't get this. I actually like one of them, feel neutral toward one, and am having a little hard time with one-- but it isn't a feeling of dislike. He just seems needy and reminds me of my 'ex' and it's unpleasant for me to have that brought up. Maybe I'm just not supposed to complain about group members. Then I start feeling like we're in a little cult where nobody can say anything negative, or have a bad feeling. She never minded me complaining endlessly about other people in my life.
The other thing is I was drinking some, and she said I was doing it to act out my anger toward her, which didn't seem right to me. I was depressed, lonely, and bored, but it didn't feel like it was an attempt to hurt her. I was just trying to medicate the feelings-- get that little temporary mood boost. I know it's a short term gain type of thing.
And I was trying to get a trip together to visit a male friend, and have lunch with another guy, and neither of these guys is mate material (one is taken, the other is just not very attractive to me) and she's pressuring me to not see either of them, and do personal ads instead. But I feel that the trip and the lunch will still help me out of my loneliness and social rut at this point. One is an old college friend, and one is a professional colleague-- so I think there are possibilities for relationships there besides dating. She just seemed so diappointed that I'd put energy there instead of doing personal ads. Like that's going to lead quickly to my perfect mate. Like having a mate is the answer for me now. I would like a mate, but if I had a choice between a mate and an adequate social circle, I'd take the social circle.
I could go on and on. It just seems like every issue that comes up we're arguing about. I'm not feeling understood, and feeling unfairly labelled with stuff that I can't own.
Posted by Tabitha on October 5, 2003, at 23:20:08
In reply to Re: More conflict with my therapist » HannahW, posted by Tabitha on October 5, 2003, at 20:36:54
Adia Falls and Poet, you've all made good points. Thanks for the reality check. You're right, it's unlikely the whole relationship would suddenly go bad.
Then again... I read about the accident with Siegfried and Roy-- the animal trainers with the Vegas show. After a lifetime with no injuries, a tiger attacked Roy during the act and he may die. The show that's been running since 1990 is suddenly cancelled. It stuck in my mind-- then I realized that's kind of what this therapy disruption feels like to me-- mentally of course. It's not like she actually clamped her ferocious jaws around my neck or anything. Then dragged my limp lifeless body off the stage. No, that didn't happen.
Posted by HannahW on October 5, 2003, at 23:25:23
In reply to Re: More conflict with my therapist » HannahW, posted by Tabitha on October 5, 2003, at 20:36:54
> She says I hate men. I just can't own this feeling.
Do you identify with it at all? In another one of your posts you said you have a hard time thinking of men as human. If that phrase doesn't mean you hate them, then maybe she's misinterpreting you. If you tried to clarify and define what you really feel about men, would that make her less aggressive? Just a thought.
>
> She's gotten really confrontational with my reactions to the men in the group. I don't get this. I actually like one of them, feel neutral toward one, and am having a little hard time with one-- but it isn't a feeling of dislike. He just seems needy and reminds me of my 'ex' and it's unpleasant for me to have that brought up. Maybe I'm just not supposed to complain about group members.Maybe she's looking for you to talk about that guy in the terms you just said. That it really isn't him, after all, but that the things he reminds you of are painful.
>
> The other thing is I was drinking some, and she said I was doing it to act out my anger toward her, which didn't seem right to me.I can totally relate to wanting to have a drink instead of feeling rotten feelings. I was self-medicating more and more over the past year or so. Just last week, (prompted by going to a family reunion and watching all the alcoholics in their drunken stupor, and making me realize I did NOT want to be like that) I decided I was going to cut back. It's a struggle for me not to go for the quick fix, though. I totally understand where you're coming from.
I'm scratching my head and wondering how she could possibly interpret your drinking as lashing out at her. That makes absolutely no sense--as you know! Unless you showed up for therapy really drunk, flaunted your inebriation, and said, "You suck as a therapist, so I'm driven to drink!" I can't see a rational explanation. Anyway, if you WERE lashing out at her, so what? People get ticked at their therapists all the time, even hate them, but it's the therapist's job not to take it personally. Your therapy isn't about HER, it's about YOU! It seems like she has a personal issue of her own, here.
> And I was trying to get a trip together to visit a male friend, and have lunch with another guy
This is good evidence that you don't hate men. Did you point that out to her? I can't figure out why she would discourage you from seeing them, just because they're not marriageable. I would expect her to encourage you to socialize AND take out a personal ad. Why does it have to be one or the other?
This really is a strange situation. I think you should consider getting a consultation.
Posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 0:16:26
In reply to Re: More conflict with my therapist, posted by HannahW on October 5, 2003, at 23:25:23
I did try what you said-- about saying that the guy was bringing up uncomfortable things for me. And I explained that men don't seem human to me because I don't connect with them emotionally and intellectually as well as with women. I don't actually believe they're sub-human. She still said she's heard me say things that make her think I hate them. She didn't clarify what.
When this topic used to come up, that I felt hopeless about relating to men, she'd say I felt that way because I'd been hurt by them. That made me feel hopeful-- like it could be healed. But when she tells me I hate them, I just feel like I've done something wrong, and she's going to punish me for it, or quit supporting me, until I change. But I can't access these feelings of hate, or this decision to hate, so I can't change it. It seems like all I can do is quit saying anything negative about men in order to preserve the relationship with her.
Well, I think writing this out has helped me see the problem a little clearer.
You know, having a consultation is a good suggestion, except I have no doubt I could find some therapist who'd be eager to tell me my current therapist is wrong, and sign me up for sessions with them. I'm feeling a bit cynical toward the profession right now!
Posted by HannahW on October 6, 2003, at 0:29:12
In reply to Re: More conflict with my therapist » HannahW, posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 0:16:26
Here we are again, up late! Actually, it's only 10:20 on the West Coast.
I really feel for you. What a hard situation. I hope my "problem-solving" wasn't too off-putting. Sometimes I think like a man--I try to fix things instead of just listen! I suppose we could chalk that up to my co-dependency. I want to rescue people and make them love me forever! :)
When you say that you have a harder time relating to men emotionally and intellectually, then I have to say ME TOO! I'm just generally uncomfortable when I'm alone with a man. Even if it's someone I know well and trust. I guess I irrationally worry that it could somehow turn into something sexual.
Hang in there. In spite of everything, you seem like you're still making progress. At least you've been able to better define the situation for yourself, and that can only help. I'm sending you hugs and support. (((Tabitha)))
Love,
Hannah
Posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 1:47:02
In reply to Re: More conflict with my therapist » Tabitha, posted by HannahW on October 6, 2003, at 0:29:12
> Here we are again, up late! Actually, it's only 10:20 on the West Coast.
Ohh,, I've spent too much time online. I'm avoiding bill-paying.
>
> I really feel for you. What a hard situation. I hope my "problem-solving" wasn't too off-putting. Sometimes I think like a man--I try to fix things instead of just listen! I suppose we could chalk that up to my co-dependency. I want to rescue people and make them love me forever! :)No not at all. It's just hard to describe the situation in enough detail to let anyone make a good judgement. And you do not have to rescue me to make me love you. I'm much easier than that-- just give me a little attention and companionship and I will be yours forever. :)
>
> When you say that you have a harder time relating to men emotionally and intellectually, then I have to say ME TOO! I'm just generally uncomfortable when I'm alone with a man. Even if it's someone I know well and trust. I guess I irrationally worry that it could somehow turn into something sexual.
Hmmm... at this point I irrationally worry that I'll turn it into something sexual. But it never really happens.>
> Hang in there. In spite of everything, you seem like you're still making progress. At least you've been able to better define the situation for yourself, and that can only help. I'm sending you hugs and support. (((Tabitha)))
>
> Love,
> HannahThank you! You too (((((Hannah))))
Now I'm signing off-- I promise.
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 9:54:59
In reply to Re: More conflict with my therapist » HannahW, posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 0:16:26
Maybe it's time for "The Talk". Time to ask your therapist what she sees as the direction of your therapy. Has she deliberately decided to take a new direction? Could she kindly inform you before she does that?
Maybe she's decided it's time for a boot forward in your life. I hate when they decide that without talking to us first. I always politely decline.
At any rate, if you can clarify what's going on in a nonjudgemental way, I'm relatively sure you can work it out. Your therapist doesn't have problems with long term therapy does she? Mine is finally comfortable with the fact that I might just be a lifer. Have you ever discussed that with her? A fair number of therapists seem to think they're supposed to nurture you then see you out of the nest.
At any rate, a good relationship talk can be interesting at times, and nearly always clears up some misconception you had absolutely no idea the other person had.
Good luck Tabitha.
Posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 13:28:19
In reply to Re: More conflict with my therapist » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 9:54:59
thanks D-- and good to see you posting again. I noticed your absence for a couple days.
Yes, I'm sure we need to talk about it more. I think she's fully supportive of long-term therapy. She admitted I'm not her longest-term client at this point.
Really I think she's just worried about how I'll affect the group-- hence the change of tactics. I don't think she's been very graceful about it. I may actually get an apology from her. Or... I'll cry, and see the error of my thinking, and launch a whole new cycle of working on me. Yay.
This is the end of the thread.
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