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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Alleecat64 on August 5, 2003, at 2:19:18
Hi,
I would like to know if there is anyone who has dealt with someone who "has" BPD and with someone at the same time has been physically and verbally abusive?
I don't know anymore too much on how to get someone like that any type of help.
I feel as though I am screwed. This person has continually threatened to do serious harm to me if I leave, however, they do "enough" damage on the regular for simply existing. I never know if this time they will actually cross that line (because they have done so before, at least that final line), it feels as if it is a no win situation. I want them to get help, but I also see it is almost beyond them. if saying it for 2 years now hasn't done anything what will.
The other problem (a little eerie) but my twin sister is married and has a daughter with his twin brother (who essentially, but to a lesser degree is the same)and I could potentially or my sister and niece for that matter, could possibly suffer some sort of backlash or "revenge".
Any suggestions or anyone experiencing similar things would helpful to hear from.
Posted by Kyp on August 5, 2003, at 10:00:58
In reply to Borderline Personality and domestic abuse, posted by Alleecat64 on August 5, 2003, at 2:19:18
My son has BPD and it has been difficult, but maintaining boundaries helps a lot. No means no and even if it is irrational for him, I have to protect myself. Sometimes I leave the room or lock myself in my room to separate myself. He has to learn I care enough about me to not allow abuse from him. He gets to feeling abandoned and it is sad, but he has to learn to alter his behavior. Actually he is 16 and has other bipolar issues and just this last month I took him to a boarding school for kids with mental illness and they are really working with him and not intstitutionalizing him. Hopefully they will get it across to him. He does not like it there, but he was not cooperating, he was isolating and unable to attend school.He can be directed as to proper behavior in society and to feel beter in his own skin with the guidance of the professional staff.
My suggestion for you is distance yourself just enough to protect you. Do you really like being around this person? Is it worth the energy? If so, limit your contact to small pockets of time and then say no when they want more. If they become physical, leave and say you will return when you feel safe to be around them.
People of all mentalities need to learn to respect other peole's boundaries and be responsible for their behavior. Sometimes they can utilize meds to help themselves be able to do that. Getting therapy would be great. Consider volunteering to go with them once to show them it is safe and helpful ???
Posted by fallsfall on August 5, 2003, at 11:30:52
In reply to Borderline Personality and domestic abuse, posted by Alleecat64 on August 5, 2003, at 2:19:18
I can't really advise you since I'm the one who HAS BPD - and I'm not violent at all. There is a really good book though, for people who live with people who have BPD. You might get some good ideas from this book "Stop Walking on Eggshells"
Good luck. Is he interested in getting help?
Posted by Alleecat64 on August 5, 2003, at 12:14:37
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality and domestic abuse » Alleecat64, posted by fallsfall on August 5, 2003, at 11:30:52
I appreciate your input, although I have already read, "...Eggshells." And to let you know I do realize that there are those who have bpd and are not abusive.
What has been helpful to you in living with bpd. What do you expect from loved ones when coping with BPD?
Posted by Alleecat64 on August 5, 2003, at 12:22:35
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality and domestic abuse, posted by Kyp on August 5, 2003, at 10:00:58
I also appreciate your input. I don't know how much more I can take, but he lives in another state and I have to deal with this. It includes a lot of abuse over the phone, where if I hung up then he would either call back or threaten to drive down here, which he has done. I am so confused, numb, and nearly hopeless. I'll pray for you that your son wants to care for his own life and especially the ones who love him.
How long have you had to deal with your son this way. I'm sure it probably has evolved into this, right?
Posted by fallsfall on August 5, 2003, at 17:55:24
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality and domestic abuse » fallsfall, posted by Alleecat64 on August 5, 2003, at 12:14:37
I can tell you how things are for me. But I'm really not a typical Borderline person. I am not impulsive, nor am I angry. Those, I think, are the two symptoms that people most often associate with Borderline.
I do have an incredible fear of abandonment. I also see everything in black and white (splitting). I have problems in determining my self worth. So it is a slightly different collection of symptoms than most Borderline people. But I do "feel" borderline - mostly because of the splitting and the fear of abandonment.
There is a fine line between expecting too much and expecting too little. I saw this in terms of chores (dishes, in my case), but it would be true across the board, I think. If you ask too much the BPD will be overwhelmed and shut down. If you ask too little (i.e. do it for them) then they feel unneeded and will just vegetate. There is a principle called shaping. With this you give positive reinforcement whenever the task is done better than it has been before. So your expectations rise with the increased performance. This way you are stepping up gradually what you expect, and not accepting laziness.
I think it is helpful when the BPD's sense of reality is off (i.e. when I'm convinced that somebody hates me and will never speak to me again - i.e. abandonment) to do two things. First, you have to let them know that you understand that FOR THEM this is an unbearable situation. If you tell them that nobody is going to abandon them they will only feel misunderstood (which is something that probably happened a lot in their life). You have to understand what it is like to be them. After you do that, then you can say "I know that it seems like Joe leaving is a true thing. But I think that in reality Joe had to go see his sick mother." Again, you have to let them know that you know what life is like for them. Then you can try to give them the truth. Don't expect them to agree with you. Maybe next year. But you have to do this over and over so you can get started now.
Validation is important (and it is touched on above). Be very careful not to try to tell them that what they see/feel is wrong. They see things they way they do for a reason - plus that IS their reality.
Try to come up with a plan in advance for what you can do to help when they are really upset. One person might want to be held. Another wants to be alone. Another wants to talk. You will have to ask them what they want.
P.S. I have heard it said that the staff in Psychiatric Hospitals can tell who is Borderline by looking for the Teddy Bears on the beds. My teddy bear is named Bear. I've heard that some hospitals won't let you bring stuffed animals in (patients were hiding sharps in them) - what a shame. So, if your favorite Borderline doesn't have a stuffed animal I would recommend that you give them one!
Posted by Alleecat64 on August 5, 2003, at 22:57:55
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality and domestic abuse » Alleecat64, posted by fallsfall on August 5, 2003, at 17:55:24
Thanks for all the information. Even though I realize how he feels, I think I will tell him that I realize that it IS reality for him. I just don't know how to tell him that his reality is not something I can argue, he will get so pissed off about things about me, yet they aren't in my control. What could I possibly say to be believed.
For instance, he believes that I have cheated on him. One, I would never do that to him, and 2 I would never do that to someone else.
Everytime I let him know that I am not indespensable to his abuse, he will bring up his fear of me leaving him. I tell him that if I have stayed through all the abuse for more than two years what makes him believe I am going to leave him now. I guess it goes back to that fear of abandonment. I realize there is nothing I can do or say to remove his fear of abandonment b/c it is imagined.
I explained to him tonight that I have a thresh hold of how much abuse I can take while still being able to function. First thing he says is if I am going to leave him do it now. But I wasn't telling him that, I told him that b/c it's not something I can handle anymore (and I have been suffering for major depression for the past 6 years). Anyway, what I told him was, because I can't take those things anymore, and there is nothing I can do or say to appease him, that it is in his control to change the situation or try to make it better with help.
Is there anything you think I can say to him about it being okay to get help. That it is not a sign of weakness, that we all are not equipped with all the essential tools for life all the time, so occasionally we do need help from outside sources.
Well, I now that people who have BPD don't necessarily have the same exact personalities, b/c obviously this one is rageful and abusive, but maybe you have some suggestion of what you think would be helpful, and even if you don't it means alot to me that you have listened and replied. Talk to you soon
Posted by fallsfall on August 6, 2003, at 10:37:07
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality and domestic abuse » fallsfall, posted by Alleecat64 on August 5, 2003, at 22:57:55
You ask very hard questions. Unfortunately, there are no easy answers. Borderlines have a reputation with therapists as being difficult for therapists to deal with. So you can imagine how difficult we are to deal with for our significant others. Please understand this to mean that your job is very hard, and that if you don't make the progress that you want to right away that it doesn't mean that you weren't trying, or doing the right things. It means that the job is very hard.
It sounds like you have more understanding than most people do of what it is like to be Borderline. That will really help. He is so lucky that you care enough to try to understand.
I was trying to think of what you could do to ease his fear of abandonment. This fear is really more like a terror. When it hits me I feel like if the person leaves me then I will die. Not that it will be really painful, but that I literally will die. When I am fighting to get someone to stay, I am fighting for my life. You are right, that it doesn't matter if the person WILL leave - the only thing that matters is that I THINK the person will leave. So explaining that the person isn't going anywhere doesn't solve the problem - because the problem is not the reality, but what I THINK the reality is. Just thinking about what to suggest to you to ease his fear makes me incredibly anxious! I guess all I can suggest is to have him talk about why he thinks you would leave, and to listen carefully to what he says. His "reason" my not make sense to you (because you know that reality wouldn't work that way), but his "reason" is what you need to dispute.
You are doing the right thing when you set boundaries. Borderlines can consume your whole life. You need to decide what boundaries you need in order to be a functioning, sane person. Your therapist should be able to help you define what is healthy and not healthy for you. Then you tell him that these boundaries are something that you need to be healthy yourself. Tell him (though he won't believe it now) that they are not a punishment for him. Tell him that you love him. Set down the rules - kindly but firmly. AND THEN STICK BY THEM. Do NOT bend your rules. My therapist set down rules for me (about contact outside the session, for instance). I hated those rules, but I knew that they were FOR her, not AGAINST me. I loved her enough to live with her rules - it was something I could do FOR her. I hate to say it, but it is like dealing with a 3 year old. The rules have to be clear and absolute, or he will test and push and it will be miserable for both of you.
You may be able to push him towards help if you can help him recognize what behaviors in his life make him miserable. Then he can get help to learn to replace those behaviors so he will be happier. He would have to be doing it in order to be happier himself - I don't think it will work if he is trying to please you. I recommend Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) for Borderlines. I did CBT for 8 1/2 years and it gave me the tools that I need to cope. I'm now in Psychodynamic therapy because I found that CBT didn't give me what I needed to *change*, only what I needed to *cope*. But I don't think that I would have been able to survive with Psychodynamic therapy in the beginning.
Here is a message board for BPD. If you post on this board you will get a wider view. The people on this board are all working hard to get better and tend to be quite optimistic. http://pub69.ezboard.com/bashrisen40890
He is VERY lucky to have you in his life. I hope he realizes that in time.
Let me know how it goes.
Posted by Kyp on August 6, 2003, at 19:10:24
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality and domestic abuse, posted by Alleecat64 on August 5, 2003, at 12:22:35
(It includes a lot of abuse over the phone, where if I hung up then he would either call back or threaten to drive down here, which he has done.)
*****I know it is difficult to maintain boundaries of distancing yourself out of protection yet assuring the BPD person you will NOT leave them which they so fear.
(I am so confused, numb, and nearly hopeless. I'll pray for you that your son wants to care for his own life and especially the ones who love him.)*****I talked to my son today in family therapy over the phone. He says EVERYONE is mean to him and NO ONE cares about him at the boarding school and NEVER helps him and are not teaching him ANY coping skills and will not allow him to go for walks... but he does not blame us for being mean to him by having him live there, of which I am so thankful. I feared he would feel abandoned. He is not understanding he has to compromise by following the rules and then getting priveledges nor is he ready to take personal responsibility for his actions and behavior. But he will, I trust. It may take some time, but it is a great place and the people are caring and knowledgeable of his thinking.
(How long have you had to deal with your son this way. I'm sure it probably has evolved into this, right?)
*****He had his first breakdown with being hospitalized with mania 2 years ago. the BPD traits have been a common theme with him as you say, gradually evolving. Being a teen is difficult enough, having such underlining problems with prospective about victimization and black and white thinking compounds things.I do appreciate your devotion and understanding in dealing with your friend. Respect yourself enough to not let him walk all over you and develope that co-dependency. :^)
Posted by Alleecat64 on August 6, 2003, at 21:46:00
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality and domestic abuse » Alleecat64, posted by fallsfall on August 6, 2003, at 10:37:07
Thank you both Fallsfall and Kyp for your invaluable feedback. It's very good to hear from folks such as yourselves. You both gave me much to consider and think about, and I will keep you both updated. It has meant so much to me that you both care enough to write. I will pray for you both. Take care and I will let you both know how things go.
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