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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by goofeygalpal on December 7, 2005, at 1:21:02
I posted this on the P.B. board but will post it here on the Alt. board as it might be more appropriate here. I did get one response saying fish oil dramatically worsened their (anxiety) symptoms but would like as much input as possible...
I am an extremely rapid cycling mixed states bipolar and am barely stabilized for years on a small amount of lithium, thyroid and small amount of Lamictal. I am partially treatment-refractory plus I cannot handle a "normal" amount of meds. On top of that, the small amount of meds that I take has contributed to a big weight gain <sigh>. Oh well.....Anyway I have recently started taking Omega 3 fish oils (around 4+ grams a day) and have experienced more depression and worsening of symptoms. I have no idea if it is directly related to fish oils or if this is due to something else entirely (like "female" problems, stress, etc.) but the fact is, I have noticed NO benefit after 3 weeks or so, one would think I would have noticed improvement regardless. Has anyone noticed worsening?TY
Susie
Posted by slinky on December 7, 2005, at 6:15:05
In reply to Fish oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by goofeygalpal on December 7, 2005, at 1:21:02
Hi
I'm no expert but I have rapid bipolar and have been taking fish oils for about 2 months? now.
One brand of omega suppliment made me really angry and irritable so I changed to the fish oil in a bottle .
It can take up to 12 weeks to build up the body's stores of the long chain fatty acids ( I assume this is the omega 3 )
Also it is advisable to take omega 6 with the omega 3. Eving Primrose oil comtains omega 6 so I take the two together.
I have only noticed the change with premenstral disorder also my skin is a lot better.
I wouldn't say it is a dramatic change for bipolar but it works well for my serious premenstral disorders.
Posted by spriggy on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:10
In reply to Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by goofeygalpal on December 6, 2005, at 21:57:38
My anxiety became MUCH worse on Fish oil AND I also got horrible acne (when I generally have good skin).
It did help my joint aches and gave me more regular BM's (tmi? LOL), but I couldn't handle the increase in anxiety and acne.
Posted by goofeygalpal on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:11
In reply to Re: Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by spriggy on December 6, 2005, at 23:28:00
WOW, thank you so much for your reply! If I learn anything in this world is that each of us are unique in the way we react to things. Go figure about the fish oil! NOTHING, none of the studies I have read said anything about fish oil being anything but beneficial with bipolar. This saddens me because it is about the only alternative for bipolar, in addition to the benefits you mention above, I also have very dry skin :-(
> My anxiety became MUCH worse on Fish oil AND I also got horrible acne (when I generally have good skin).
>
> It did help my joint aches and gave me more regular BM's (tmi? LOL), but I couldn't handle the increase in anxiety and acne.
>
>
Posted by med_empowered on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:11
In reply to Re: Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by goofeygalpal on December 7, 2005, at 1:15:42
hey! that really sucks :-( I dont know what to tell you...some people have odd reactions to things, even natural treatments. Have you considered benzos? If anxiety is a big part of the picture for you, taking care of that might help with your overall moood. A visit to a nutritionist or alternative doc might help you set up a diet/supplement plan to work with what you're taking now, which should boost your overall health and hopefully make your meds work better (and reduce side effects) Good luck!
Posted by linkadge on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:11
In reply to Re: Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by med_empowered on December 7, 2005, at 2:59:56
I have had a lot of sucess with fish oil, but there are some important things that I and others have found.
EPA seems to confer more antidepressant effect than DHA.
Most studies have found that there is usually not much benefit beyond 1 gram of EPA.
Too much can have a strong cholinergic effect, which can sometimes cause depression. (at least in me)
It may be more beneficial in the long run.
Not to take it all at once.
I have also found that it caused irritability in my when I took too high a dose as once combined it with lithium.
It can cause insomnia if taken right before bed time (I think this is related to the cholinergic effect)
Anyhow, I would never tell anyone to give up on fish oil. I would recommend going on the least dose that you can tollerate, because this one has the potential to actually improve the structure of your brain, unlike a lot of other meds.Linkadge
Posted by spriggy on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:11
In reply to Re: Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by linkadge on December 7, 2005, at 9:20:07
Link,
What do you think caused the acne? I know for certain it was the fish oil because I went on it for 6 weeks- got horrible acne- went off of it for 2 months (acne cleared up), thought I'd give it another shot and once again... ACNE (and anxiety!).
Posted by spriggy on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:12
In reply to Re: Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar??? » linkadge, posted by spriggy on December 7, 2005, at 13:13:55
I was taking the "liquid" form. The infectious disease dr. told me that was the most beneficial. Wonder if I took capsules if it would have a different affect?
Posted by linkadge on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:12
In reply to Re: Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar??? » linkadge, posted by spriggy on December 7, 2005, at 13:13:55
It might be responsable for the acne because it could concievably alter the oil content of the skin.
I tend to have very dry skin, so it has been a blessing for me because it makes my skin a little more supple (and you know how Linkadge needs supple skin)
I think it cold also increase mental anxiety due to the fact that it does increase brain dopamine content. Dopaminergic drugs can make some people a little panicy/fearfull.
I find that If I exceed 1 g EPA, or ~800 mg DHA a day, I will notice certain side effects. But that just tells me to reduce the dose and not elimnate it.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:12
In reply to Oh and.., posted by spriggy on December 7, 2005, at 13:14:47
Liquid form may contain lots of vitamin A, or vitamin D. Either of these might alter the way that it affects mood.
I remember reading somewhere that vitamin A supplements can make people irritable.
Linkadge
Posted by Laurie Beth on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:13
In reply to Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by goofeygalpal on December 6, 2005, at 21:57:38
Cribbing from a 2002 Psychobabble post:
'In his book, the Omega-3 connection, Stoll [doctor who did the study showing fish oil helps with bipolar] says:
p. 208 (page numbers for paperback edition)
"Current evidence is pointing toward EPA as the most mood-promoting agent in fish oil, although further research may show that DHA is important as well. However, there is anecdotal data suggesting that too much DHA relative to EPA may cause a worsening of mood. I therefore recommend using a supplement with as high an EPA content as possible. More systematic studies are required to verify these clinical observations. There are supplements available with EPA to DHA ratios of two-to-one all the way up to seven to one."' [end of cribbing]Stoll's wife apparently invented, and they now sell, a fish oil supplement with 7:1 EPA:DHA ratio. I've tried both the 2:1 and the 7:1 ratios (my current diagnosis is unipolar depression, but I have anxiety and irritability), and it hasn't obviously helped me. I continue to take fish oil nevertheless, because I'm a nursing mom. I've experimented a lot with the ratio of long-chain omega-3 to long-chain omega-6 (GLA in evening primrose oil) because when I had my phospholipids tested, they arguably had too much omega-3 in them and omega-3 can suppress synthesis of long-chain omega-6 (and, as I said above, somewhat with the EPA:DHA ratio) because I've sometimes wondered if the fish oil could be making things worse.
Posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:13
In reply to Re: Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by Laurie Beth on December 7, 2005, at 14:49:15
Where is Larry Hoover. We need him here. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by blueberry on December 7, 2005, at 23:20:14
In reply to Fish Oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by goofeygalpal on December 6, 2005, at 21:57:38
The way I see it, anything we put in our bodies that goes to the brain can affect things either positively or negatively, and that it can vary significantly from one person to the next based on genetic variables, receptor densities, individual brain chemistries, and who knows what. Say for example a study shows that 90% of people will improve with fish oil (no such study, but just to make a point), what about the other 10%? Some of them probably had no difference, and a few probably had a horrible reaction.
Even the food we eat can make a difference one way or the other, and that too will vary from one person to the next. Coffee, chocolate, carbs, proteins...they all affect everyone differently.
I've taken fish oil for years and it does nothing for me. Not sure why I keep taking it except that I guess it's supposed to be healthy. I do know that if I take 3 capsules instead of 1, I feel worse.
Posted by johnnyj on December 8, 2005, at 17:45:57
In reply to Fish oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by goofeygalpal on December 7, 2005, at 1:21:02
Hi:
I too had increased anxiety on fish oil. I also had increased insomnia (worst ever) after a brief period of better sleep after taking magnesium too. The only thing we can do is test supplements.
Posted by Jedi on December 9, 2005, at 3:57:16
In reply to Re: Fish oil WORSENING bipolar??? » goofeygalpal, posted by johnnyj on December 8, 2005, at 17:45:57
Hi Guys,
I'm not bipolar but I've had insomnia from increasing my dosage of fish oil too quickly. I backed off a little on the titration and no insomnia. There are a lot of published studies on the health benefits of omega-3s on lipids, depression, bipolar, etc. Just search PubMed for omega-3:Omega-3 fatty acids in the treatment of psychiatric disorders.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15907142&query_hl=4Jedi
Posted by nolvas on December 10, 2005, at 11:13:25
In reply to Re: Fish oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by Jedi on December 9, 2005, at 3:57:16
Im sure this link has been posted on this forum before, but anyway it may have some useful information on when Omega 3 is not useful.
http://www.omega3.20megsfree.com/whats_new.html
The section I'm talking about is in CAPS on that site.
"THERE IS ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT BENEFIT MUCH FROM TAKING EXTRA OMEGA-3.THEY HAVE A SHORTAGE OF ARACHIDONIC ACID (AN OMEGA-6 FATTY ACID) INSTEAD."
There's obviously some anecdotal evidence for the condition 'pyroluria' but maybe it's not as simple as that. It may however go a little way to explaining why some people feel worse or don't benefit from Omega 3 oils.
I certainly get about 90% of the symptoms listed there and Omega 3s don't seem to help me at all.
Posted by qqqsimmons on December 10, 2005, at 20:21:03
In reply to Fish oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by goofeygalpal on December 7, 2005, at 1:21:02
i can't take 1g of fish oil on consecutive days without having insomnia and nightmares. after a year of intermittent fish oil dosing, i finally cut back to the smaller cod liver oil pills (i can't find fish oil pills smaller than 1g).
i'm going to start magnesium, maybe that'll mellow my reaction to the fish oil.
Posted by MoparFan91 on December 11, 2005, at 10:44:44
In reply to Re: Fish oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by qqqsimmons on December 10, 2005, at 20:21:03
I might have gotten some hypomanic symptoms with the Country Life High EPA Omega 3 Mood oils I had been taking for 2.5 months.
The EPA/DHA ratio for almost 6.5/1.0
I was taking 3g of EPA per day in 3 divided doses.
Anyone know of any evidence of concentrated High EPA formulas causing hypomania?
Posted by qqqsimmons on December 18, 2005, at 18:36:03
In reply to Also, can high EPA oils cause Hypomania?, posted by MoparFan91 on December 11, 2005, at 10:44:44
i'd bet it can. i've found my experience with it to be pretty similar to prozac or zoloft, both of which can cause hypomania (i had it on prozac). like i said, i can't take 1g fish-oil softgels on consecutive days without minor insomnia and bad dreams.
today i went out and bought neuromins DHA, since DHA has a shorter half-life than EPA and will leave your system faster. but it will wind up being a bit more expensive for me.
Posted by ghuber on December 22, 2005, at 21:24:30
In reply to Fish oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by goofeygalpal on December 7, 2005, at 1:21:02
How many MG of EPA/DHA are you guys taking per day? Are you splitting your doses?
Posted by Jedi on December 23, 2005, at 16:10:26
In reply to Re: Fish oil WORSENING bipolar???, posted by ghuber on December 22, 2005, at 21:24:30
> How many MG of EPA/DHA are you guys taking per day? Are you splitting your doses?
Hi,
I take about 2000mg of EPA and 1600mg of DHA on a daily basis. I split the dosage, taking most early in the day to avoid insomnia. It has not seemed to have a great benefit on my residual dysthymia, but overall my health seems to be better. I've been exposed to multiple colds and viruses which I felt coming on and they just went away. Normally I would catch the bug, have it turn into bronchitis and last for weeks. I'll have to do some research on this one, to see if it is just my imagination.
Jedi
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