![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 49. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Chris O on January 21, 2005, at 3:18:19
I'm on and off visitor to this board. I see a lot of people are experimenting with fish oil here with some good results. I...I have tried Andy Stoll's Omegabrite product several times for extended periods (2-3 months) at various doses (2-4 grams EPA) and have experienced absolutely no benefit on my anxiety and depression. I lean toward anxiety/obessive worrying, not bipolar, so perhaps that is part of the problem. But it seems like others on this board and in clinical trials experiencing anxiety have gotten some benefit from fish oil and Stoll's product. I just wish I knew how to make it work! Oh, well.
On a positive note, I picked up Lambrou and Pratt's Instant Emotional Healing from the library a couple of weeks ago. It gives a variety of accupressure/energy tapping exercises to rebalance the body's energy and and let emotions/anxieties /obsessions "flow out." I have no idea how, but I am reaping some, in my opinion, quite amazing benefits from this technique, more than from any other OTC supplement I've taken, and, in many ways, it so far seems to be better than the SSRIs that I've been on for the past six months. I just went off Lexapro about 4 weeks ago and, it's like I don't need it any more. It's like the tapping, freaky as it may sound, made my physicalized-pain- anxiety go away, or decrease, or something. After doing the tapping, I do not obsess as much, I feel
relief in my body from tension, and I sleep better, though still not great. Anyway, has anyone else gotten benefit from any of these "energy therapies?" I'd be curious to hear stories, good and bad.All the best,
Chris
Posted by LOOPS on February 5, 2005, at 7:35:44
In reply to Stoll's Omegabrite just does nothing for me..., posted by Chris O on January 21, 2005, at 3:18:19
hi -
have you tried any other brands? I never took omegabrite - it's so expensive. Not that this is going to be of help, but I found one brand of fish oil useless that I bought here in Chile. It was supposed to be top-notch quality and was expensive. One week on it and all my anxiety seemingly returned.
Maybe try another brand and see if it helps. The other thing I found really helpful to take alongside the fish oil was GLA in the form of evening primrose oil. This also provides you with a different type of prostaglandin that the fish oil does not - involved in inflammation, mood etc. Since adding a lot of healthy fats to my 'regime' (including olive oil and avocados for omega 9) I really have noticed a big difference in anxiety and OCD tendencies. And I did have very stubborn anxiety/depression for many years.
Loops
Posted by Chris O on February 5, 2005, at 15:02:17
In reply to fsih oil - other brands?, posted by LOOPS on February 5, 2005, at 7:35:44
LOOPS:
I appreciate your responding to my posts and the suggestions you gave. Yeah, I really haven't given other brands a try. The two other cheaper brands I have bought in the past (Carlson's and Nordic Naturals) just smelled and tasted too "fishy" for me. As to the GLA suggestion, I was going to do that just for my skin (I have some dry, patchy areas on my face), as per Dr. Weil's suggestion on his website, but then I have read so many conflicting things about whether or not GLA is really beneficial, I didn't do it. But now that you've given me this good feedback about how it's helping your GAD/OCD, maybe I will give it a try. Questions: Did you find evening primrose oil to be the best GLA source? (I know borage oil and black currant oil also have GLA.) How long did it take you to notice any differences in your symptoms taking fish oil and GLA? Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.
Chris
hi -
>
> have you tried any other brands? I never took omegabrite - it's so expensive. Not that this is going to be of help, but I found one brand of fish oil useless that I bought here in Chile. It was supposed to be top-notch quality and was expensive. One week on it and all my anxiety seemingly returned.
>
> Maybe try another brand and see if it helps. The other thing I found really helpful to take alongside the fish oil was GLA in the form of evening primrose oil. This also provides you with a different type of prostaglandin that the fish oil does not - involved in inflammation, mood etc. Since adding a lot of healthy fats to my 'regime' (including olive oil and avocados for omega 9) I really have noticed a big difference in anxiety and OCD tendencies. And I did have very stubborn anxiety/depression for many years.
>
> Loops
Posted by KaraS on February 5, 2005, at 15:45:29
In reply to fsih oil - other brands?, posted by LOOPS on February 5, 2005, at 7:35:44
Hi LOOPS,
Are you still taking 5-htp, taurine and SJW along with the fish oil and EPO? Do all of these things together control your anxiety? Mine is particularly bad right now - to the point of panic attacks and inability to function. I'm wondering if yours has ever been that bad and, if so, have you been able to control it with these natural supplements?
Thanks,
Kara
Posted by LOOPS on February 5, 2005, at 15:47:49
In reply to Thanks for the suggestions » LOOPS, posted by Chris O on February 5, 2005, at 15:02:17
I also have dry patches on my face. I have eczema and psoriasis (psoriasis just on my eyebrows and underneath my chin). I originally went on a low-fat vegan wholefoods diet to drop some pounds, and not surprisingly found my skin dried right out. My eczema also got worse, as did my anxiety.
So then I started adding in the fish oil and got some immediate 'relief' from anxiety. Hard to explain, but I immediately just felt more 'normal' instead of being keyed up. I started taking NOW brand double concentrated pills - 6 a day (3.6g omega 3). Disillusioned with my vegan diet, I dropped it in favour of eating more meat and eggs and olive oil. Hey presto, skin started to become more normal.
So, then I started 'getting into' the fats thing, and, for the eczema, started taking the epo. Funny thing I noticed was I was even calmer on both the fish oil and epo than either one alone.
Yes, borage oil is a more potent source of GLA. yes, I am also going to buy some, as studies suggest for skin problems going from 0.5g - 3g GLA, and EPO has too little.
However, I also take EPO for hormonal imbalance (PMS) in the hope it will help. I think, assuming you are male, it might be better to take the borage oil, although I don't think taking EPO will make you grow breasts or anything!
Loops
Posted by Chris O on February 5, 2005, at 17:37:34
In reply to Re: Thanks for the suggestions, posted by LOOPS on February 5, 2005, at 15:47:49
LOOPS:
Thanks again for the feedback. I'll probably try to add some GLA to my diet and see how that works. The eczema/psoriasis thing--mine is not bad, but sounds similar in location to yours (eyebrows, face). My whole family on my mother's side, the anxiety worshippers that they/we are, also have this. It seems like a lot us who struggle with anxiety and depression get eczema and psoriasis.
Yeah, I am a guy, so, I don't need any more "breasts" than the ones I'm already getting due to growing older, or taking SSRIs. :) Maybe I'll try borage or black currant instead of EPO.
Good luck and thanks again for the feeback,
Chris
Posted by LOOPS on February 7, 2005, at 8:24:09
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands? » LOOPS, posted by KaraS on February 5, 2005, at 15:45:29
Hi Kara -
right now I am not taking the sjw and taurine, because I feel that the oils are getting more to the bottom of my mental problems/anxiety. If things get bad again, I may give the sjw another shot - but I never find it a totally smooth ride with that stuff, and I have to be careful of hypomania. Also I tend to slouch into apathy after a few months, although I can't be sure this was entirely the sjw as I was taking lithium orotate at the same time.
So for me sjw can be a bit hit and miss. Also it has differing actions on my sleep. It seems to help after a few weeks, but at first it does somewhat interfere with my sleep and occasionally raises my heart rate as well (which isn't conducive to getting to sleep).
Well, the 5htp I still take at night, and occasionally in the day when I recognise signs of very low serotonin. I only take it at night usually, but have to take a sufficient dose to get the benefits (150-200mg). I am not convinced of its effectiveness in keeping me asleep as it seems to wear off early in the morning (4am?) and I have to either take another dose, or take something else (valerian etc) to get back to sleep. I sometimes wonder if adding back in the sjw will help with this, as it did seem to help with 'keeping the serotonin levels up' as before. I love my sleep and feel getting plenty is a big step in recovering mental 'normality'.
I also feel with 5htp it can upset the serotonin/dopamine balance if taken in big doses all the time, throughout the day etc. I don't know if this is a fact of course, but my guess is that things can also get bad if dopamine is low (thrill-seeking etc). Now I really think the fish oil has done a lot to help me with low dopamine. I am an addictive person, and find bad habits very hard to break, but recently have been noticing subtle changes in my 'attitude' towards these habits; not giving up smoking yet, but I can go for more extended periods of time without one, and not be feeling deprived.
Anyway that is a bit off track. As regarding panic - yes, I have suffered from this on and off since my teenage years. I once got to the point where I was obsessing about 'thinking about thinking' to the point I could not do anything else. I got so anxious and upset I started having panic attacks. NObody understood or wanted to help me. I think high stress and family problems really set me off. So I totally sympathize.
I don't know if the sjw would help you with panic - I think it might 'eventually', but if you're anything like me, it might increase anxiety to start with (I think this is because it raises norepinephrine). I think in this respect, 5htp might be better for immediate calming, but again, for me the initial effects of 5htp were VERY DIFFERENT to those experienced after taking it awhile.
I noticed at first with 100mg pharm-grade 5htp it made me a bit hypomanic. This stopped after awhile and now I can take 100mg no probs and it calms me.
Other things I really have found most useful for panic, are lecithin combined with B vit complex (with fish oil even better), and surprisingly Holy Basil extract (blocks cortisol) - surprising because it seems to have quite a powerful effect on me, even with one cap. Lecithin in big enough doses can calm down mania, but I have also found it useful in anxiety. I don't take too much because it can make one depressed after a while of taking it all the time. Eggs of course might have the same effect - and combined with B5 (which they contain a bit of anyway) works even better for stress.
SJW will work on GABA to some extent and this may help you - probably why so many people feel a bit 'spaced-out' on it.
Loops
Posted by LOOPS on February 7, 2005, at 11:17:14
In reply to Thanks, again » LOOPS, posted by Chris O on February 5, 2005, at 17:37:34
nt
Posted by KaraS on February 7, 2005, at 15:10:24
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands?, posted by LOOPS on February 7, 2005, at 8:24:09
> Hi Kara -
>
> right now I am not taking the sjw and taurine, because I feel that the oils are getting more to the bottom of my mental problems/anxiety. If things get bad again, I may give the sjw another shot - but I never find it a totally smooth ride with that stuff, and I have to be careful of hypomania. Also I tend to slouch into apathy after a few months, although I can't be sure this was entirely the sjw as I was taking lithium orotate at the same time.
>
> So for me sjw can be a bit hit and miss. Also it has differing actions on my sleep. It seems to help after a few weeks, but at first it does somewhat interfere with my sleep and occasionally raises my heart rate as well (which isn't conducive to getting to sleep).
>
> Well, the 5htp I still take at night, and occasionally in the day when I recognise signs of very low serotonin. I only take it at night usually, but have to take a sufficient dose to get the benefits (150-200mg). I am not convinced of its effectiveness in keeping me asleep as it seems to wear off early in the morning (4am?) and I have to either take another dose, or take something else (valerian etc) to get back to sleep. I sometimes wonder if adding back in the sjw will help with this, as it did seem to help with 'keeping the serotonin levels up' as before. I love my sleep and feel getting plenty is a big step in recovering mental 'normality'.
>
> I also feel with 5htp it can upset the serotonin/dopamine balance if taken in big doses all the time, throughout the day etc. I don't know if this is a fact of course, but my guess is that things can also get bad if dopamine is low (thrill-seeking etc). Now I really think the fish oil has done a lot to help me with low dopamine. I am an addictive person, and find bad habits very hard to break, but recently have been noticing subtle changes in my 'attitude' towards these habits; not giving up smoking yet, but I can go for more extended periods of time without one, and not be feeling deprived.
>
> Anyway that is a bit off track. As regarding panic - yes, I have suffered from this on and off since my teenage years. I once got to the point where I was obsessing about 'thinking about thinking' to the point I could not do anything else. I got so anxious and upset I started having panic attacks. NObody understood or wanted to help me. I think high stress and family problems really set me off. So I totally sympathize.
>
> I don't know if the sjw would help you with panic - I think it might 'eventually', but if you're anything like me, it might increase anxiety to start with (I think this is because it raises norepinephrine). I think in this respect, 5htp might be better for immediate calming, but again, for me the initial effects of 5htp were VERY DIFFERENT to those experienced after taking it awhile.
>
> I noticed at first with 100mg pharm-grade 5htp it made me a bit hypomanic. This stopped after awhile and now I can take 100mg no probs and it calms me.
>
> Other things I really have found most useful for panic, are lecithin combined with B vit complex (with fish oil even better), and surprisingly Holy Basil extract (blocks cortisol) - surprising because it seems to have quite a powerful effect on me, even with one cap. Lecithin in big enough doses can calm down mania, but I have also found it useful in anxiety. I don't take too much because it can make one depressed after a while of taking it all the time. Eggs of course might have the same effect - and combined with B5 (which they contain a bit of anyway) works even better for stress.
>
> SJW will work on GABA to some extent and this may help you - probably why so many people feel a bit 'spaced-out' on it.
>
> LoopsLOOPS,
Thanks so much for taking the time to go into so much detail on this. I really appreciate it. Anxiety problems can be so crippling. It sounds like you know exactly what I mean. I'd like to be able to control the anxiety naturally - at least eventually. Right now I'm taking a small amount of doxepin and it is helping but it isn't a long-term solution for me. I will eventually try the 5-htp. I didn't like that the articles I've read said to take it 4 times a day but it sounds like you're able to take a larger dose at one time and avoid that continuous dosing schedule. (Wish it came in sustained release form!) I think you said in an earlier post that you get the pharmaceutical grade stuff from either biosynergy.com or another place starting with "bio" that is out of South Africa (but Dr. Bob xxxed out the full name). Do I have that right?
I'll be upping my fish oil amounts and will look into Holy Basil. I'd actually never heard of the latter but if it can get to the cortisol (which is the root of the problem) then it's a great solution to know about.
Thanks again.
Kara
Posted by LOOPS on February 7, 2005, at 17:01:12
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands? » LOOPS, posted by KaraS on February 7, 2005, at 15:10:24
Hi -
it was biogenesis.com. Actually right now I'm trying out the Sourcenaturals 5htp - I'll let you know how it goes. It seems I need less of an 'effect' for anxiety since upping the EFAs. I am really quite impressed with the effects of the addition of the evening primrose oil. I also have added in some capsules of 'omega 3-6-9' by NOW which includes flax oil and some other oils. I'm finding the flax oil is a nice addition to the fish oil. So it might be that I need more of all of them - linolenic acid, EPA/DHA, GLA and I am also eating a lot of olive oil for oleic acid and omega-9.
Good luck with whatever you try - I too am a bit fed up of quick fixes and am focusing more on building myself up with the EFAs and the positive attitude which is coming from feeling less depressed.
Loops
Posted by KaraS on February 7, 2005, at 20:27:34
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands?, posted by LOOPS on February 7, 2005, at 17:01:12
> Hi -
>
> it was biogenesis.com. Actually right now I'm trying out the Sourcenaturals 5htp - I'll let you know how it goes. It seems I need less of an 'effect' for anxiety since upping the EFAs. I am really quite impressed with the effects of the addition of the evening primrose oil. I also have added in some capsules of 'omega 3-6-9' by NOW which includes flax oil and some other oils. I'm finding the flax oil is a nice addition to the fish oil. So it might be that I need more of all of them - linolenic acid, EPA/DHA, GLA and I am also eating a lot of olive oil for oleic acid and omega-9.
>
> Good luck with whatever you try - I too am a bit fed up of quick fixes and am focusing more on building myself up with the EFAs and the positive attitude which is coming from feeling less depressed.
>
> Loops
Thanks again.
I also take a small amount of EPO and may increase that one as well. I will be curious to see how you do on the SourceNaturals 5-htp.Take care,
K
Posted by banga on February 8, 2005, at 11:29:14
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands?, posted by LOOPS on February 7, 2005, at 8:24:09
I am taking a NOW formula that I like--
NOW Omega 3-6-9
I like it because it has a variety of oils--all but fish oil that I add separately.
flax seed oil-1400mg
Evening Primrose Oil 300mg
Canola Oil 260mg
Black Currant Oil 20mg
Pumpkin seed Oil 20mgI heard not taking omega 9 with the others can cause an imbalance.
For the person on Evening Primrose Oil, how much do you take? How is it supposed to help with hormone imbalances?
Posted by carolineh on February 8, 2005, at 19:18:30
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands?, posted by banga on February 8, 2005, at 11:29:14
hi all--i have followed your fish story with interest. because i have tried 2g a day of omega 3s with no success, i decided to order some ethyl-epa (what the research is based on.) i ordered from an outfit called vitamin research products off the internet--has anyone tried this?
(i found two listings for companies with ethyl-epa, and the prices were similar--it was more than drug store stuff but won't break the bank if it works.)
Posted by Chris O on February 8, 2005, at 20:17:36
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands?, posted by carolineh on February 8, 2005, at 19:18:30
Carol:
It looks like there's a clinical trial underway with this type of EPA ending in 2006. I found that under this link:
(http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00096798).
I'm not certain how, exactly, the ethyl EPA differs from the EPA in Omegabrite or other fish oil brands. Dr. Stoll claims to have the most effective type of EPA in his pills, but, like you, even at 2-3 grams per day, I felt nothing. Good luck and more power to ya, if the stuff you ordered works.Chris
> hi all--i have followed your fish story with interest. because i have tried 2g a day of omega 3s with no success, i decided to order some ethyl-epa (what the research is based on.) i ordered from an outfit called vitamin research products off the internet--has anyone tried this?
>
> (i found two listings for companies with ethyl-epa, and the prices were similar--it was more than drug store stuff but won't break the bank if it works.)
Posted by carolineh on February 8, 2005, at 20:39:18
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands? » carolineh, posted by Chris O on February 8, 2005, at 20:17:36
c hris--
i saw that link for the study, too. i think the e-epa is more pure, more intense--i read something on the net that explained it, but i didn't follow the math.
i was (am) just curious to see if anyone has tried e-epa,what brand, and with what result. i'll let you know if it works--it should be here friday, although i realize it will take a while to see an effect, if any.
Posted by LOOPS on February 9, 2005, at 8:28:32
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands?, posted by banga on February 8, 2005, at 11:29:14
I take 4-5g evening primrose oil a day, spread out. It helps your body produce different prostaglandins to the fish oil, which apparently are involved in hormonal balance (I don't know the exact ins and outs I'm afraid). It seems to help with anxiety and concentration as well. Most people can produce GLA found in EPO from omega-6 fats from food - some can't (like me probably). It is the GLA that is the important part of the oil I think.
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 14, 2005, at 17:09:34
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands?, posted by banga on February 8, 2005, at 11:29:14
> I am taking a NOW formula that I like--
> NOW Omega 3-6-9
> I like it because it has a variety of oils--all but fish oil that I add separately.
> flax seed oil-1400mg
> Evening Primrose Oil 300mg
> Canola Oil 260mg
> Black Currant Oil 20mg
> Pumpkin seed Oil 20mg
>
> I heard not taking omega 9 with the others can cause an imbalance.
>
> For the person on Evening Primrose Oil, how much do you take? How is it supposed to help with hormone imbalances?Omega-9 fatty acids are not deficient in most people's diets, and there is no imbalance associated with their lack.
With the advent of modern food processing over the last century, and the novel availability and amount of vegetable oils in our diets (from an evolutionary perspective), I cannot conceive that anyone is deficient in omega-6 or omega-9 fatty acids. We currently get about 60 times as much as our ancestors had in their diets. Simultaneous to that increase, we've lost half our omega-3 intake.
I was able to exactly match a commercial (Udo's) 3-6-9 oil blend by simply proportioning canola, olive and flax oils appropriately. Hocus-pocus oil, IMHO.
Just my perspective.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on February 15, 2005, at 15:15:27
In reply to Re: fsih oil - other brands?, posted by LOOPS on February 7, 2005, at 17:01:12
Hi Loops,
How is the Source Naturals brand working out? I noticed that Natural Factors brand is enteric coated so less likely to produce stomach problems or nausea. That Italian pharmaceutical grade stuff you mentioned is also enteric coated. Wonder if that has made a difference for you.I also meant to ask you if you take breaks from 5-htp. Everything I've read says that you need to take breaks from it or it stops working. Have you found that to be the case? I really need to get on something that I can take consistantly (or else have something else that I can substitute quickly).
Take care,
Kara
Posted by LOOPS on February 16, 2005, at 8:41:44
In reply to Re: 5-htp » LOOPS, posted by KaraS on February 15, 2005, at 15:15:27
> Hi Loops,
> How is the Source Naturals brand working out? I noticed that Natural Factors brand is enteric coated so less likely to produce stomach problems or nausea. That Italian pharmaceutical grade stuff you mentioned is also enteric coated. Wonder if that has made a difference for you.
>
> I also meant to ask you if you take breaks from 5-htp. Everything I've read says that you need to take breaks from it or it stops working. Have you found that to be the case? I really need to get on something that I can take consistantly (or else have something else that I can substitute quickly).
>
> Take care,
> KaraHi Kara -
yep the Source Naturals stuff seems to be working. I took 200mg before bed last night, and another 100mg at 6am (my usual early morning wakening and not getting back to sleep is a problem right now).
Sounds like a lot, but these pills are less strong than the biosynergy ones. Take 200mg of those and I'd get nightmares/waking hallucinations which isn't very conducive to restful sleep.
Side-effects: well, I'm pretty monged this morning, but I don't care much about that - I don't have to get up for an early start job luckily. Sometimes it's actually nice to feel a bit monged instead of hyper anxious as well.
The point about taking the larger dose is to avoid taking my Somno (zolpidem), or, worse still, I have a stash of Midazolam, which is a pretty heavy-duty benzo which was first prescribed to me a couple of years ago, ironically due to the acute insomnia brought on by starting the Wort. I don't take this very often - I am scared of benzos as I have a very addictive personality, and feel relying on this stuff will only make the problem worse in the long run.
However, compromise is the key with many things, so the 5htp I will continue.
A few things I have learnt with 5htp, as it is tricky to use for me is to vary dose and timing according to how I 'feel' my serotonin is. In other words, sometimes I may take 50mg (I have the Nature's Way brand for this) in the morning if I'm feeling anxious. That seems to be enough for the rest of the day. Then, early in the evening I try to assess how 'sleepy relaxed' I am. If I am feeling very awake and driven, I will take another 50-100mg with some carbohydrate. Then before bed I take a varied dose again, depending on how sleepy I am. I also take some other herb like valerian to help initiate sleep, although I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about this stuff's effects and whether I actually need it all the time.
The point is with the 5htp, the dose is never the same, but it does always have an effect. What doesn't last for me with 5htp, is the antidepressant effect. This seems to wear off with continued use. I would say that for sleep and anxiety, 5htp always works. However, the trick is not to take so much I am plunged into deeper depression or apathy. I am assuming this is not due to tolerance and therefore less of an effect on serotonin, but that levels of dopamine go down.
I couldn't do without the 5htp for sleep. I mean I could, and I have come off it a few times, but I just revert back to difficult sleeping patterns and insomnia, even when depression isn't present (I am very sensitive to light and noise). The only time I sleep well without extra help is when I am truly knackered - but then I feel awful all day being tired all the time - so sleep deprivation is not an answer.
As my doc says, I am just one of those people who doesn't sleep well. Personally I have had this problem on and off since about the age of 10 when I started having panic attacks at night. So it's probably just an anxiety-related disorder.
Hope that helps. I haven't gotten round to trying the Italian brand 5htp - I'm sure it's very good. I have some success with diet issues as well - no large protein meals before bed and I make sure to eat some carbs with the 5htp seems to double its effectiveness.
Loops
Posted by KaraS on February 16, 2005, at 12:24:22
In reply to Re: 5-htp, posted by LOOPS on February 16, 2005, at 8:41:44
> > Hi Loops,
> > How is the Source Naturals brand working out? I noticed that Natural Factors brand is enteric coated so less likely to produce stomach problems or nausea. That Italian pharmaceutical grade stuff you mentioned is also enteric coated. Wonder if that has made a difference for you.
> >
> > I also meant to ask you if you take breaks from 5-htp. Everything I've read says that you need to take breaks from it or it stops working. Have you found that to be the case? I really need to get on something that I can take consistantly (or else have something else that I can substitute quickly).
> >
> > Take care,
> > Kara
>
> Hi Kara -
>
> yep the Source Naturals stuff seems to be working. I took 200mg before bed last night, and another 100mg at 6am (my usual early morning wakening and not getting back to sleep is a problem right now).
>
> Sounds like a lot, but these pills are less strong than the biosynergy ones. Take 200mg of those and I'd get nightmares/waking hallucinations which isn't very conducive to restful sleep.
>
> Side-effects: well, I'm pretty monged this morning, but I don't care much about that - I don't have to get up for an early start job luckily. Sometimes it's actually nice to feel a bit monged instead of hyper anxious as well.
>
> The point about taking the larger dose is to avoid taking my Somno (zolpidem), or, worse still, I have a stash of Midazolam, which is a pretty heavy-duty benzo which was first prescribed to me a couple of years ago, ironically due to the acute insomnia brought on by starting the Wort. I don't take this very often - I am scared of benzos as I have a very addictive personality, and feel relying on this stuff will only make the problem worse in the long run.
>
> However, compromise is the key with many things, so the 5htp I will continue.
>
> A few things I have learnt with 5htp, as it is tricky to use for me is to vary dose and timing according to how I 'feel' my serotonin is. In other words, sometimes I may take 50mg (I have the Nature's Way brand for this) in the morning if I'm feeling anxious. That seems to be enough for the rest of the day. Then, early in the evening I try to assess how 'sleepy relaxed' I am. If I am feeling very awake and driven, I will take another 50-100mg with some carbohydrate. Then before bed I take a varied dose again, depending on how sleepy I am. I also take some other herb like valerian to help initiate sleep, although I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about this stuff's effects and whether I actually need it all the time.
>
> The point is with the 5htp, the dose is never the same, but it does always have an effect. What doesn't last for me with 5htp, is the antidepressant effect. This seems to wear off with continued use. I would say that for sleep and anxiety, 5htp always works. However, the trick is not to take so much I am plunged into deeper depression or apathy. I am assuming this is not due to tolerance and therefore less of an effect on serotonin, but that levels of dopamine go down.
>
> I couldn't do without the 5htp for sleep. I mean I could, and I have come off it a few times, but I just revert back to difficult sleeping patterns and insomnia, even when depression isn't present (I am very sensitive to light and noise). The only time I sleep well without extra help is when I am truly knackered - but then I feel awful all day being tired all the time - so sleep deprivation is not an answer.
>
> As my doc says, I am just one of those people who doesn't sleep well. Personally I have had this problem on and off since about the age of 10 when I started having panic attacks at night. So it's probably just an anxiety-related disorder.
>
> Hope that helps. I haven't gotten round to trying the Italian brand 5htp - I'm sure it's very good. I have some success with diet issues as well - no large protein meals before bed and I make sure to eat some carbs with the 5htp seems to double its effectiveness.
>
> Loops
Thanks for all of the info. Just one more question: if the 5-htp loses its antidepressant effect for you then do you take breaks from it? It sounds like you can't without losing sleep. Therefore, I would assume that you don't take breaks and that the 5-htp is no longer an antidepressant for you (only helps you with sleep and anxiety at this point).K
Posted by LOOPS on February 16, 2005, at 16:58:38
In reply to Re: 5-htp » LOOPS, posted by KaraS on February 16, 2005, at 12:24:22
Hi -
yeah that's right. I don't take it for depression - although taking the fish oil seems to make the 5htp work even better (I had the same experience with fish oil + sjw - made it work better). I take the fish oil for depression.
No I haven't taken a break recently from the 5htp. I'm still finding it useful, but if it stops working I will take a short break. Today I haven't taken any 5htp as my dose was big last night and early morning and didn't want any more. Tonight I will take some, but I am quite tired already so hopefully I won't need very much (mind you that can be misleading sometimes).
Good luck with it.
Loops
Posted by KaraS on February 16, 2005, at 17:09:21
In reply to Re: 5-htp, posted by LOOPS on February 16, 2005, at 16:58:38
Posted by tealady on February 18, 2005, at 21:17:03
In reply to fsih oil - other brands?, posted by LOOPS on February 5, 2005, at 7:35:44
I finally found some non smelly and non tasting fish oil caps in Oz!!(7th brand I've tried!) My Dad bought this no reflux brand. it's Nature's Own Omega3, odourless fish oil, 1000mg with "no fishy reflux" http://www.naturalcity.com.au/product.aspx?id=3276
Info for any Aussie's still looking for a tasteless fish oil. I have no idea what they do to the fish oil to prevent any smell or taste though.The girl in the shop told me the only difference was the capsules are harder so it is designed to dissolve in intestine and not stomach, but when I break open the capsules there is NO smell or taste...
The cod liver oil(melrose bottle) still stunk and tastes fishy. We've got different brands over here.
Posted by sabre on February 18, 2005, at 22:24:47
In reply to Fish oil-Aussie brands, how is no smell/taste done, posted by tealady on February 18, 2005, at 21:17:03
Hi Tealady
That's the brand I use in the largish 200 capsules per bottle. I've never had any problems with the smell or taste of them.Do you notice any difference when you are taking them or not? I stopped taking them a couple of weeks ago and I can't tell the difference.
What do you think?
sabre
Posted by tealady on February 19, 2005, at 19:36:12
In reply to Re: Fish oil-Aussie brands, how is no smell/taste done, posted by sabre on February 18, 2005, at 22:24:47
Fish oil , just one capsule a day usually gives me acne..severe enough for doc to comment on when I visit him for other things, as well as flatulence!
Also I suspect I get that increase in anxiety that Loops commented on. I tried it for many months then gave up. I finally tolerated one capsule but had some effects when I tried increasing to 2 caps a day.
Recently I've tried flaxseed ground on my brekkie oats and flaxseed oil and that feels much better.
I've always loved EPO (just one a day), and just bought some more again.
I'm trying now fish oil + EPo + flaxseed...
I think that helps but I'm adding in B5 to see if I can tolerate better. B5 helps one's body break down the oils and use them supposedly.(posted on b4)
Still experimenting.
Personally I won't go above 2 caps a day of fish oil probably with one cap a day of EPO and a tablespoon of linseed meal(flaxseed). I'm just using up some flaxseed oil on my skin as well.Loops seems to be saying she has found a similar combo best for her as well.
I suspect this is more of a 'female" combo, with males doing better on plain fish oil or a fish oil /cod iver oil combo in colder climates/winter?
I do know flaxseed is not great for males(prostrate cancer), and EPO does help with estrogen I think..not sure on that one..poor memory.I got those odourless fish oil caps for Dad. I've started him on cod liver oil, then added in 2 caps of fish oil a day and 1 cap of EPO for GLA. Seems to maybe be helping.
He noticed a softening of motions on the cod liver oil, which has remained on the fish oil caps.
I notice this softening as well... both not constipated before though.
Other than that, I think the flaxseed seems to help with eye moisture, and perhaps moisture levels of whole body(but that could be something else I'm taking too like estrogen). But I suspect that fish oil may take away from the other omega 3 oils in our body creating a slight imbalance that is helped by a little flaxseed. I think this idea is backed by some research I've read on omega balances when adding in fish oil it seems to "replace" the other long chain fatty acids first from memory. ..Lar probably knows this stuff. Anyway I figure that is why I need the lot for a better balance.
So just trying this at present with the B5 to help break down and utilize all this extra fatty acids.
I really hated fish oil by itself though, increased anxiety and "edginess" I think as well as just not feeling right and other physical symptoms mentioned above.
iT took a long time after stopping to start feeling as before again.(months, but I guess that makes sense.
IMO 3 caps of fish oil is enough for most(unless you are a big build, as intake should be proportional to weight). I've spoken to researchers(average size males) in omega3 etc. and that's what they take, and I figure they probably know as much as anyone .
Jan
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