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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by nicko on June 13, 2004, at 10:56:32
I have just had the worse 2 days on lexapro and decided it wasn't for me, i have mild depression and anxiety, what do you guys recommend in the supplements.
I take a multivitamin, B complex and fish oil caps.. is St johns wort worth a go?
Posted by nicko on June 14, 2004, at 8:51:42
In reply to What supplements for me!, posted by nicko on June 13, 2004, at 10:56:32
I have just purchased and tried a St johns wort tablet, is it normal for it to make me feel drowsy? cause i do, it hit me about 2 hours after taking it, plus i have a bit of a headache/neck is that normal? On the plus side I'm feeling calmer.lol
> I have just had the worse 2 days on lexapro and decided it wasn't for me, i have mild depression and anxiety, what do you guys recommend in the supplements.
> I take a multivitamin, B complex and fish oil caps.. is St johns wort worth a go?
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 15, 2004, at 9:08:24
In reply to Re: What supplements for me!, posted by nicko on June 14, 2004, at 8:51:42
> I have just purchased and tried a St johns wort tablet, is it normal for it to make me feel drowsy? cause i do, it hit me about 2 hours after taking it, plus i have a bit of a headache/neck is that normal? On the plus side I'm feeling calmer.lol
Both are common when starting SJW. The other one mentioned is digestive upset. Treat the symptoms as you might any other time you have a headache (or upset stomach), and within 10-14 days you shouldn't get them any more. You might want to take the SJW before bed if it makes you drowsy, though that too will likely pass.
Lar
Posted by nicko on June 16, 2004, at 1:05:51
In reply to Re: SJW » nicko, posted by Larry Hoover on June 15, 2004, at 9:08:24
It says to take with food, is that really important? Or can i take them at any times?
> > I have just purchased and tried a St johns wort tablet, is it normal for it to make me feel drowsy? cause i do, it hit me about 2 hours after taking it, plus i have a bit of a headache/neck is that normal? On the plus side I'm feeling calmer.lol
>
> Both are common when starting SJW. The other one mentioned is digestive upset. Treat the symptoms as you might any other time you have a headache (or upset stomach), and within 10-14 days you shouldn't get them any more. You might want to take the SJW before bed if it makes you drowsy, though that too will likely pass.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 16, 2004, at 7:19:37
In reply to Re: SJW, posted by nicko on June 16, 2004, at 1:05:51
> It says to take with food, is that really important? Or can i take them at any times?
The products I have on hand differ on instructions with respect to food, so I don't know. It should be noted that food does not necessarily mean a full meal. A granola bar, or a glass of milk, are probably sufficient.
Lar
Posted by nicko on June 16, 2004, at 9:32:59
In reply to Re: SJW » nicko, posted by Larry Hoover on June 16, 2004, at 7:19:37
Thanks Lar,
well i have been taking it now for about 3 days, im feeling alittle better toward the night time and i sleep well but I always feel like crap in the morning, depressed anxious etc, should i notice a difference in the way i feel in the mornings in a couple of weeks? and lastly if it does work for me, how long should you take it for?Thanks Nicko
> > It says to take with food, is that really important? Or can i take them at any times?
>
> The products I have on hand differ on instructions with respect to food, so I don't know. It should be noted that food does not necessarily mean a full meal. A granola bar, or a glass of milk, are probably sufficient.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 16, 2004, at 14:42:43
In reply to Re: SJW, posted by nicko on June 16, 2004, at 9:32:59
>
> Thanks Lar,
> well i have been taking it now for about 3 days, im feeling alittle better toward the night time and i sleep well but I always feel like crap in the morning, depressed anxious etc, should i notice a difference in the way i feel in the mornings in a couple of weeks?I would expect that morning difficulty to fade, yes.
> and lastly if it does work for me, how long should you take it for?
>
> Thanks NickoNow, that is not clear. Most herbalists do not recommend using herbs for extended periods, but absent some adverse health effect, I really don't see a need to discontinue.
The best antidepressant I ever used, based on response (and side-effect profile), was SJW. However, after about a year, I stopped using it. As with other peoples' response to trying to restart an antidepressant that once worked in the past, I have never again had that sort of response to new trials of SJW. Maybe I should never have stopped.
Lar
Posted by nicko on July 2, 2004, at 1:35:14
In reply to Re: SJW » nicko, posted by Larry Hoover on June 16, 2004, at 14:42:43
Ok things aren't going so good for me , after a week on St johns wort my depression had dropped to about half which was good, my anxiety had reduced also, by 2 weeks I almost felt back to normal, no anxiety attacks beside the odd feeling.
Now into my 3rd week im going back down again, depression is up and anxiety is almost back to its peck, im feeling nervous constantly and i hate it.
Should i just give up and move on? i purchased a new bottle i don't know if that has anything to do with it, we have only a few companies selling it here in Australia, the brand im using is blackmore's who guaranty that every batch is made using the right % of whatever its called.lolIm still talking my omega 3 and vitamin B complex, nothing has really changed, things were going so well and i was so hopeful, but not anymore, what do guys suggest? give up? or keep going :((
Posted by nicko on July 2, 2004, at 2:41:56
In reply to Re: SJW, posted by nicko on July 2, 2004, at 1:35:14
To be honest, i don't really suffer depression as such, it more the anxiety that makes me feel down. The feeling of nervousness, being tense and feeling scared sometimes is what bothers me, when the happens i get down, just wish i knew why its coming back again :(
> Ok things aren't going so good for me , after a week on St johns wort my depression had dropped to about half which was good, my anxiety had reduced also, by 2 weeks I almost felt back to normal, no anxiety attacks beside the odd feeling.
> Now into my 3rd week im going back down again, depression is up and anxiety is almost back to its peck, im feeling nervous constantly and i hate it.
> Should i just give up and move on? i purchased a new bottle i don't know if that has anything to do with it, we have only a few companies selling it here in Australia, the brand im using is blackmore's who guaranty that every batch is made using the right % of whatever its called.lol
>
> Im still talking my omega 3 and vitamin B complex, nothing has really changed, things were going so well and i was so hopeful, but not anymore, what do guys suggest? give up? or keep going :((
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 2, 2004, at 7:59:38
In reply to Re: SJW, posted by nicko on July 2, 2004, at 1:35:14
> Ok things aren't going so good for me , after a week on St johns wort my depression had dropped to about half which was good, my anxiety had reduced also, by 2 weeks I almost felt back to normal, no anxiety attacks beside the odd feeling.
> Now into my 3rd week im going back down again, depression is up and anxiety is almost back to its peck, im feeling nervous constantly and i hate it.
> Should i just give up and move on? i purchased a new bottle i don't know if that has anything to do with it, we have only a few companies selling it here in Australia, the brand im using is blackmore's who guaranty that every batch is made using the right % of whatever its called.lol
>
> Im still talking my omega 3 and vitamin B complex, nothing has really changed, things were going so well and i was so hopeful, but not anymore, what do guys suggest? give up? or keep going :((
>I suggest that you consider making choices similar to those a doctor might suggest if you were trying a prescription antidepressant. The initial reaction was positive, but you seem to have accomodated to the dose. It suggests that a dose increase might be effective. There is no overdose threshold to be worried about, because you can't overdose with SJW. That said, things like photosensitivity also increase with dose, but I don't think I need warn an Aussie about the dangers of unprotected skin and the sun. Don't be afraid to increase the dose if you think it might work for you. There was a study in AIDS patients (SJW is an antiviral, too) where the subjects were taking 23,000 mg/day. You're taking 900. You've got room for an increase, safely.
Lar
Posted by nicko on July 2, 2004, at 8:17:27
In reply to Re: SJW » nicko, posted by Larry Hoover on July 2, 2004, at 7:59:38
well its winter now, so the sun isnt really an issue.lol
So is this something i will have to keep doing increasing the dose? would you suggest another one tablet a day? or half? and can i take it together with one or should i now take it 4 times daily...Thanks
Nick
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 2, 2004, at 13:45:29
In reply to Re: SJW, posted by nicko on July 2, 2004, at 8:17:27
> well its winter now, so the sun isnt really an issue.lol
Ya, I forgot. You're upside down there. Christmas in summer, and all that.
> So is this something i will have to keep doing increasing the dose?
I'm suggesting you increase the dose until: a) you achieve relief; or, b) side effects or lack of efficacy lead you to abandon the trial. You start at 20 mg Prozac, but I know someone who was taking 100 mg. You don't get there in one jump. 900 mg is the starting point for SJW.
> would you suggest another one tablet a day? or half?
I don't know the size of your tabs, but I'll assume 300 mg. Yes, another tab a day. I was taking 5 x 450 mg (2250 mg/day).
> and can i take it together with one or should i now take it 4 times daily...Thanks
> NickI never bothered with the three times a day thingie, but that's just me. I would always forget a dose, or whether I took it or not. One dose a day is all I ever did. If you find that you get adverse effects from lumping it all into one dose, then I can see a good argument for splitting it up. The half-life isn't so short that you absolutely need three-times-a-day dosing.
Lar
Posted by nicko on July 2, 2004, at 23:09:28
In reply to Re: SJW » nicko, posted by Larry Hoover on July 2, 2004, at 13:45:29
Thanks Larry you have been a great help and i appreciate it :D
I just have a few more questions then i will stop bugging you.lol Firstly i haven't had a drink in a few months(never drank much anyways), but ive been invited out tonight with a few friends and i was wondering if a few beers would be ok? I don't want to do anything that will place me further in the dumps.
Secondly when i was giving those damn anti_depressants which i took for 2 days i was also giving some mild sedatives to help with the first few weeks, i also took 2 of them, would it be ok if i was having a really bad day/night to have one with the SJW they really did relax me or would there be a contradiction
Lastly, considering its more my anxiety rather then depression is something else i can get to help with that while still taking the SJW, I've heard about Kara kara i think its called but there is some bad press about it, maybe something else?
Sorry to bother you with all these questions,
cheers
Nicko
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2004, at 12:10:53
In reply to Re: SJW, posted by nicko on July 2, 2004, at 23:09:28
> Thanks Larry you have been a great help and i appreciate it :D
My pleasure.
> I just have a few more questions then i will stop bugging you.lol Firstly i haven't had a drink in a few months(never drank much anyways), but ive been invited out tonight with a few friends and i was wondering if a few beers would be ok? I don't want to do anything that will place me further in the dumps.
I would not worry about occasional moderate drinking. It might even be good for you.
> Secondly when i was giving those damn anti_depressants which i took for 2 days i was also giving some mild sedatives to help with the first few weeks, i also took 2 of them, would it be ok if i was having a really bad day/night to have one with the SJW they really did relax me or would there be a contradiction
I think you meant contraindication. No, I would have no concern.
> Lastly, considering its more my anxiety rather then depression is something else i can get to help with that while still taking the SJW, I've heard about Kara kara i think its called but there is some bad press about it, maybe something else?Kava kave. It can hurt the liver. Try niacinamide, 500 mg. If it helps, you can take it up to four times a day. You should be taking a B-complex as well, as you should never supplement with single B-vitamins. They work as a team, and supplementing one alone can induce problems with others in that group.
> Sorry to bother you with all these questions,
> cheers
> NickoNot a bother.
Lar
Posted by nicko on July 3, 2004, at 13:37:38
In reply to Re: SJW » nicko, posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2004, at 12:10:53
Hmmmm i responding but it didnt seem to work, sorry if i end up spamming.lol
Thanks mate,
I have been taking Executive B Stress Formula which contains all B Vit plus some herbs, been taking that for about 4 months, plus i take omega 3.B Formula contains the following.
Active Ingredients Per Tablet
Vitamin B1 (Thiamine hydrochloride) 75 mg
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 10 mg
Nicotinamide 100 mg
Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine hydrochloride) 25 mg
Calcium ascorbate 145 mg
Ascorbic acid 130 mg
(Total Vitamin C 250mg)
Vitamin E (d-alpha-Tocopheryl acid succinate 41.3 mg) 50 IU
Vitamin B5 68 mg
(Pantothenic acid from Calcium pantothenate 75mg)
Magnesium phosphate 140 mg
Calcium phosphate 100 mg
Potassium phosphate monobasic 117 mg
Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 30 mcg
Vitamin H (Biotin) 20 mcg
Folic acid 150 mcg
Avena sativa (Oats) extract
equivalent to dry seed 250 mg
Passiflora incarnata (Passion flower) extract
equivalent to dry flowering and fruiting herb 100 mg
Lecithin 50 mg
Choline bitartrate 25 mg
Inositol 25 mg
take 1 tablet twice daily morning and lunch.
aslo states this, Medicine interactions If taking tetracycline or quinolone antibiotics, biphosphonates (osteoporosis drugs) or thyroid hormones separate doses by at least 2 hours. Magnesium and calcium may decrease absorption and efficacy of these medications.
i guess that doesnt count for me.lol not sure.
hasnt seem to help me though.cheers
Nicko
> > Thanks Larry you have been a great help and i appreciate it :D
>
> My pleasure.
>
> > I just have a few more questions then i will stop bugging you.lol Firstly i haven't had a drink in a few months(never drank much anyways), but ive been invited out tonight with a few friends and i was wondering if a few beers would be ok? I don't want to do anything that will place me further in the dumps.
>
> I would not worry about occasional moderate drinking. It might even be good for you.
>
> > Secondly when i was giving those damn anti_depressants which i took for 2 days i was also giving some mild sedatives to help with the first few weeks, i also took 2 of them, would it be ok if i was having a really bad day/night to have one with the SJW they really did relax me or would there be a contradiction
>
> I think you meant contraindication. No, I would have no concern.
>
> > Lastly, considering its more my anxiety rather then depression is something else i can get to help with that while still taking the SJW, I've heard about Kara kara i think its called but there is some bad press about it, maybe something else?
>
> Kava kave. It can hurt the liver. Try niacinamide, 500 mg. If it helps, you can take it up to four times a day. You should be taking a B-complex as well, as you should never supplement with single B-vitamins. They work as a team, and supplementing one alone can induce problems with others in that group.
>
> > Sorry to bother you with all these questions,
> > cheers
> > Nicko
>
> Not a bother.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 5, 2004, at 8:24:07
In reply to Re: SJW, posted by nicko on July 3, 2004, at 13:37:38
> Hmmmm i responding but it didnt seem to work, sorry if i end up spamming.lol
>
> Thanks mate,
> I have been taking Executive B Stress Formula which contains all B Vit plus some herbs, been taking that for about 4 months, plus i take omega 3.
>
(snip)
Decent enough. You need more vitamin E, though. Fish oil directly increases vitamin E demand. You should get a 400 IU supplement, and add it to the above. Also, alphalipoic acid increases the half-life of both vitamins C and E, while simultaneously acting as an antioxidant in its own right. 100-200 mg/day is a good idea.There are gaping mineral gaps in this supplement, as well. No zinc (target 25-30 mg/day), selenium (200 mcg/day), chromium (variable, but 200 mcg/day is a good target).
> take 1 tablet twice daily morning and lunch.
> aslo states this, Medicine interactions If taking tetracycline or quinolone antibiotics, biphosphonates (osteoporosis drugs) or thyroid hormones separate doses by at least 2 hours. Magnesium and calcium may decrease absorption and efficacy of these medications.
> i guess that doesnt count for me.lol not sure.Only if you take those drugs orally. It won't affect thyroid function, just uptake from the gut if you are taking e.g. oral levothyroxine.
> hasnt seem to help me though.I can assure you it isn't hurting you, either. Adding the minerals I mention might make a difference. The vitamins assist enzymes in functioning, whereas the minerals are structural components of those same enzymes. Your body can't make enzymes without minerals around which to fashion them.
> cheers
> NickoRegards,
Lar
Posted by nicko on July 5, 2004, at 8:55:37
In reply to Re: vitamin intake » nicko, posted by Larry Hoover on July 5, 2004, at 8:24:07
sorry lar, i feel like a dork.lol i also take a Multi Vit, here is the list, sorry to be a pain.
Victorian Nutrition Survey figures show that about 1 in 3 men are lacking in the minerals calcium, zinc and magnesium and that men are also lacking vitamins A, B and C.
INGREDIENTS:
Standardised Dunaliela Salina 120mg
Extract equiv fresh cell (equiv carotenoids calculated as Betacarotene 5mg)
Standardised Vitis Vinifera (Grape seed) 1000mg
Cholecalciferal (Vitamin D3) 5mcg
Alpha- Tocopheryl Acid Succinate 41.33mg
Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1) 30mg
Riboflavine (Vitamin B2) 30mg
Nicotinamide 30mg
Calcium Pantothenate 70mg
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6) 30mg
Cyanocobalamin (Vitamin B12) 30mcg
Biotin 50mcg
Folic Acid 500mcg
Calcium Ascorbate Dihydrate 200mg
Choline Bitrarate 25mg
Inositol 25mg
Bioflavonoids 40mg
Lysine Hydrochloride 50mg
Tyrosine 1mg
Calcium Citrate 100mg
Magnesium Oxide- heavy 100mg
Potassium Sulfate 8.92mg
Ferrous Fumarate 9.13mg
Chromium Picolinate 50mcg
Manganese Amino Acid Chelate 12mg
Copper Gluconate 200mcg
Potassium Iodine 66mcg
Zinc Amino Acid Chelate 30mg
Selenomethionine 65mcg
Ubidecarenone 1mg
Spearmint Oil 1.69mg
And powdered;
Caricia Papaya Fruit 10mg
Petroselinum Crispum Herb (Parsley) 10mg
And ectracts equiv to dry
Berberis Vulgaris Root (Barberry) 15mg
Foeniculum Vulgare Fruit (Fennel) 15mg
Equisetum Arvense Stem (Horsetail) 30mg
Apium Graveolens Seed (Celery) 20mg
Zingiber Officinale Root (Ginger) 5mg
Barosma Betulina Leaf (Buchu) 10mg
Turnera Diffusa Leaf (Damiana) 120mg
Astragalus Membranaceus Root (Milk Vetch) 50mg
Centella Asiatica Herb (Gotu Kola) 50mg
Crataegus Monogyna Fruit (Hawthorn) 100mg
Smilax Officinalis Root (Saraparilla) 50mg
Equiv to fresh
Avena Sativa Herb (Common Oat) 500mg
Cynara Scolymus (Globe Artichoke) 50mg
and standardized extracts equiv to
Silybum Marianum Dry Fruit 50mg
Panax Ginseng Dry Root 50mg
Ginkgo Biloba Dry Leaf 100mg
Vaccinium Myrtillus Fresh Fruit 25mg
Serenoa Serrulata Drt Seed 200mg
Camellia Sinensis Dry Leaf 20mg
Lycopersicon Esculentum Dry Fruit 40mg
Tagetes Erecta Dry Flower 20mgDOSE:
Adults: one tablet daily during or immediatley after a meal or as directed by a health care professional.
Posted by nicko on July 6, 2004, at 10:28:12
In reply to Re: SJW » nicko, posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2004, at 12:10:53
Ok one thing i have recently notice while talking st johns wort is normally within one hour or so of taking it i get really anxious more so then usual, i currently take it 3 times daily, just wondering if anyone would know why? or do you think its just a coincidence.
Just to mention ive now been on it a little over 3 weeks and the main reason i am taking it is for anxiety, could it be making it worse?
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 7, 2004, at 10:25:58
In reply to Re: vitamin intake, posted by nicko on July 5, 2004, at 8:55:37
> sorry lar, i feel like a dork.lol i also take a Multi Vit, here is the list, sorry to be a pain.
>
> Victorian Nutrition Survey figures show that about 1 in 3 men are lacking in the minerals calcium, zinc and magnesium and that men are also lacking vitamins A, B and C.
>
> INGREDIENTS:Jehosephat! You copied all that? And I'm just gonna snip it all away....
I don't have a clue what many of those herbs are about. And I can't imagine why they bothered to add 1 mg of tyrosine, for example. Anyway, I still think you're light on vitamin E. And C (though diet might cover that.) The minerals are adequately covered.
I think it wouldn't hurt if you took a teaspoon of cod liver oil once a fortnight. Betacarotene is not a total equivalent to vitamin A. And the extra D won't hurt you a bit. The RDA for vitamin D is going to be increased drastically, or so goes the rumour.
Lar
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