![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by medievil on December 24, 2006, at 10:20:49
i'm willing to try opiate for my ocd, but i'm wondering, whats the cheapest option i could try?
hydrocodone is really expensive...
Posted by Quintal on December 24, 2006, at 11:52:54
In reply to Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by medievil on December 24, 2006, at 10:20:49
Probably codeine - I get it in OTC painkillers for a subtle mood boost. I keep a packet on standy for crises.
Q
Posted by blueberry1 on December 24, 2006, at 14:51:53
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » medievil, posted by Quintal on December 24, 2006, at 11:52:54
> Probably codeine - I get it in OTC painkillers for a subtle mood boost. I keep a packet on standy for crises.
>
> QWhat OTC painkillers are you referring to? I've never really looked through the drugstore much so I'm not familiar with what is there. I didn't know one could buy anything with codeine in it without a prescription? What is it? Curious.
Posted by blueberry1 on December 24, 2006, at 14:54:47
In reply to Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by medievil on December 24, 2006, at 10:20:49
> i'm willing to try opiate for my ocd, but i'm wondering, whats the cheapest option i could try?
>
> hydrocodone is really expensive...Tramadol maybe? It's pretty cheap. I realize it isn't a full fledged opiate.
Posted by Quintal on December 24, 2006, at 15:11:53
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » Quintal, posted by blueberry1 on December 24, 2006, at 14:51:53
>What OTC painkillers are you referring to? I've never really looked through the drugstore much so I'm not familiar with what is there. I didn't know one could buy anything with codeine in it >without a prescription? What is it? Curious
Analgesics containing codeine salts are on sale from pharmacies here in the UK, but not in the US as far as I'm aware. The Thought Police seem much more proactive in the US and the their equivalent in the UK seem following that example. They've just added warnings about addiction to packets codeine containing painkillers so I imagine it can't be long before restrictions come in to force.
I use:
Solpadeine Max: http://www.solpadeinemax.co.uk/
Paramol: http://www.mypharmacy.co.uk/medicines/medicines/p/paramol/paramol_tablets.htm
Nurofen Plus: http://www.pharmacy2u.co.uk/details.asp?productid=NUPT32I also have a bit of back pain and they help with that too.
Q
Posted by Tom Twilight on December 24, 2006, at 16:13:20
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » blueberry1, posted by Quintal on December 24, 2006, at 15:11:53
Be Careful with over the counter Codeine Preparations, even in the UK they contain Paracetamol and other nasties :(
You want really cheap Opiates?
Get some dried Opium poppie pods, Grind up, boil with Lemon Juice-You'll get Opium tea.
The tea is a decent Opiate, but carries all the risks of addiction and so on you get with other powerful Opiates.
Posted by Quintal on December 24, 2006, at 16:48:43
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by Tom Twilight on December 24, 2006, at 16:13:20
>Be Careful with over the counter Codeine Preparations, even in the UK they contain >Paracetamol and other nasties :(
The codeine is used in theory as an augmenter for the paracetamol/ibuprofen. They're not marketed as 'codeine preparations' - usually as a more powerful version of a paracetamol/ibuprofen product such as Nurofen 'Plus' or Solpedeine 'Max'.
I sometimes combine Nurofen Plus with Solpedeine Max to get more codeine - I was given both ibuprofen and paracetamol with codeine then tramadol in hospital so I assume it's safe for short term use.
Q
Posted by blueberry1 on December 24, 2006, at 17:57:15
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by Tom Twilight on December 24, 2006, at 16:13:20
> You want really cheap Opiates?
>
> Get some dried Opium poppie pods, Grind up, boil with Lemon Juice-You'll get Opium tea.
>
> The tea is a decent Opiate, but carries all the risks of addiction and so on you get with other powerful Opiates.Dried Opium poppie pods? Do they sell such a thing? Where? USA? I mean, I might like some of that tea on a Saturday night. :-)
Posted by zmg on December 24, 2006, at 20:05:53
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » Tom Twilight, posted by blueberry1 on December 24, 2006, at 17:57:15
Both online and at crafts stores. I wish I had a citation, but I've read of accidental overdose by means of poppy tea (made from seed it the particular case).
Strength can vary widely from variety to variety and even crop to crop. Start slow and of course as mentioned, don't fool yourself into thinking *natural* means less addictive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy_tea
Before this gets moved into the alternative section I'll quickly agree with Quintal. Codeine would probably fit the bill. Depending on your location it can be easy (UK/Canada) or more difficult (its scheduled along with the rest of the family here in the US). Its also possible to "wash" codeine, I believe using a water solution, but you'd want to look that up on your own (if you felt it was necessary).
Tramadol (as mentioned) is another possibility, but it depends on your intended use. Codeine would probably be preferable for semi-regular use (sans the liver damaging additives). Tramadol can start to have a strange S/E profile over time.
(merry chirstmas!)
Posted by Tom Twilight on December 25, 2006, at 8:14:47
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by zmg on December 24, 2006, at 20:05:53
Sorry should have made it clearer
Poppy tea can be very addictive!
Also you don't know what the Pods have been sprayed with!
Posted by Phillipa on December 25, 2006, at 22:58:48
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by Tom Twilight on December 25, 2006, at 8:14:47
Why can't opiods or codeine be over the counter in the US as I percocet a night made me feel good. Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on December 26, 2006, at 1:37:14
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by Phillipa on December 25, 2006, at 22:58:48
> Why can't opiods or codeine be over the counter in the US as I percocet a night made me feel good. Love Phillipa
Why can't we allow 14 year olds to shoot up heroin before going to middle school ? I just do not get this line of discussion. Yeah, percocet was fun after a wisdom tooth operation for a few days plus constipation, but that's about what its meant for.
Codeine OTC/Cat V strictly regulated to people over 18, in very small amounts might be an option, only for obvious extreme sore throats. It used to be the case here in the US in some states for such types of medications to sign a "poison record" and then people abused the whole system. Its allowed in Canada but I believe it has to be admixed with ibuprofen or (even worse) acetaminophen. If it ever happened again here, it would probably be admixed with .01% belladona alkaloids to prevent abuse.
I will never be for the casual use of synthetic opiates -- I suppose the poppy tea might be harmless once or twice but the strength is so unknown -- I must admit I wondered about that too. And then its a slippery slope -- lets put meth on the cough and cold aisle...Okay, so there is a sardonic angle to what I'm saying, but I just get suspicious when someone asks for "the cheapest opiate". At least not the cheapest opiate in a carribean pharmacy.
See my posting about OCD in your previous thread -- there are much better choices to start off first. Opiates will get you addicted, eventually. Benzodiazepines, regulated, may get you habituated if not kept in check, but there's a wide difference.
-- tidings
Posted by Declan on December 26, 2006, at 14:09:04
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by yxibow on December 26, 2006, at 1:37:14
Posted by cubic_me on December 26, 2006, at 14:24:58
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » Tom Twilight, posted by Quintal on December 24, 2006, at 16:48:43
> >Be Careful with over the counter Codeine Preparations, even in the UK they contain >Paracetamol and other nasties :(
>
> The codeine is used in theory as an augmenter for the paracetamol/ibuprofen. They're not marketed as 'codeine preparations' - usually as a more powerful version of a paracetamol/ibuprofen product such as Nurofen 'Plus' or Solpedeine 'Max'.Yes, adding paracetamol (one of the 'safest' drugs around)reduces the amount of opiate needed to get the same effect - ie opiate sparing.
Posted by Quintal on December 26, 2006, at 18:10:37
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by yxibow on December 26, 2006, at 1:37:14
>Why can't we allow 14 year olds to shoot up heroin before going to middle school ? I just do not get this line of discussion.
How does OTC analgesics containing small amounts of codeine translate into 14 year olds taking IV Heroin? A significant portion of 14 year olds will have already swallowed their morning hit of prescribed amphetamine - some will actually be taking crystal meth in the form of Desoxyn tablets. That seems a crazy double standard to me. So if it's OK to give the 'ADHD' kids a supply of amphetamines why do you think it's so wrong to allow treatment resistant depressives access to opiates with limited abuse potential such as buprenorphine?
>Yeah, percocet was fun after a wisdom tooth operation for a few days plus constipation, but that's about what its meant for.
What do you mean by:"but that's about what its meant for."? Opiates are effective antidepressants and anxiolytics for many people. Many medicines are used off-label for purposes that are not officially recognised.
>I will never be for the casual use of synthetic opiates.
How do you know your opinion will never change, and why the aversion to synthetic opiates? - just curious.
>-- I suppose the poppy tea might be harmless once or twice but the strength is so unknown --
There's good reason to think it is likely to be more dangerous than low dose codeine preparations for that very reason.
>And then its a slippery slope -- lets put meth on the cough and cold aisle...
No it isn't. There are safer and more effective drugs for simple cold preparations. Anyone wanting a steady legal supply of crystal meth could try for a diagnosis of ADHD, claim to get a poor response to Adderall, Ritalin and Dexedrine and, just possibly if they're a good actor and have no history of substance misuse, get a prescription for Desoxyn. That's assuming that they're not content to have access to those first three powerful synthetic stimulants in the first place.
>Opiates will get you addicted, eventually. Benzodiazepines, regulated, may get you habituated if not kept in check, but there's a wide difference.
I found opiates easier to quit than benzos and I did develop a major drug addiction (not simply habituation) to clonazepam despite having no previous history of substance misuse. Tolerance developed so rapidly to the euphoric effects of tramadol that I voluntarily quit cold turkey after a few months. I had to be forced to quit benzos and it was agony - every bit as painful as opiate withdrawal. Opiates made me optimistic and cheerful, but I could live without them. Benzos seemed to affect me more deeply - I've said before that opiates enhanced my life wonderfully while they worked, but benzos I sometimes feel I need just to survive.
I don't see the wide difference you're seeing
Q
Posted by Phillipa on December 26, 2006, at 19:29:55
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » yxibow, posted by Quintal on December 26, 2006, at 18:10:37
That one percocet did not make me high it only allowed me to feel like not dying as I feel somewhat normal. After ll years don't I deserve to feel somewhat well or is it just time for me to be gone? Love Phillipa
Posted by zmg on December 26, 2006, at 19:51:44
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by Phillipa on December 25, 2006, at 22:58:48
Because the US was founded by missionaries I've always suspected. We are pseudo puritanical.
Posted by Declan on December 26, 2006, at 20:31:46
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » yxibow, posted by Quintal on December 26, 2006, at 18:10:37
In our ahistoric and incurious world we can forget there are other times and other places. It may still be the case that in France half strength paregoric in 45ml bottles is OTC. The UK sells Collis Browne's Chlorodyne OTC, some of the time at least. Australia sold diamorphine OTC in restricted forms until 1968.
The world has not yet been brick and tiled.
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2006, at 17:21:03
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate?, posted by Declan on December 26, 2006, at 20:31:46
Declan I remember paragoric they used it with kids when mine were small. Was it ever used for sleep or diarrhea? Love Phillipa
Posted by Declan on December 28, 2006, at 0:47:03
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » Declan, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2006, at 17:21:03
Diarrhea and flues, I think, PJ.
Posted by yxibow on December 28, 2006, at 4:17:07
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » yxibow, posted by Quintal on December 26, 2006, at 18:10:37
> >Why can't we allow 14 year olds to shoot up heroin before going to middle school ? I just do not get this line of discussion.
>
> How does OTC analgesics containing small amounts of codeine translate into 14 year olds taking IV Heroin? A significant portion of 14 year olds will have already swallowed their morning hit of prescribed amphetamine - some will actually be taking crystal meth in the form of Desoxyn tablets. That seems a crazy double standard to me. So if it's OK to give the 'ADHD' kids a supply of amphetamines why do you think it's so wrong to allow treatment resistant depressives access to opiates with limited abuse potential such as buprenorphine?
You're not quite linking the idea of limited trials of opiates with the backing of at least a university or corporation with treatment resistant depressives with one or two psychiatrists handing out scripts for buprenorphine. These scripts go to pharmacies -- pharmacies see strange patterns of possible polypharmacy with the buprenorphine, Doctor X gets a friendly letter from the DEA and has to explain why he's prescribing opiates so he can pay his mortgage. That's my argument. Not that there can't be research, but the repercussion
that prescribing out of the current realm of psychiatric practices, whether you like our DEA or not (and I have a few views about them too), will land you without a practice.
As for Desoxyn or the oft prescribed Ritalin -- I think it can tend to be an overprescribed regime for those under the fully developed adult age which actually isn't until about 21 or 22 for everything, at least males, but it does have its uses with tough ADHD cases. Its also in triplicates or tamper proof prescriptions depending what state you're in and again, is subject to DEA snooping on doctors who prescribe out of the current realm of practice.>
> >Yeah, percocet was fun after a wisdom tooth operation for a few days plus constipation, but that's about what its meant for.
>
> What do you mean by:"but that's about what its meant for."? Opiates are effective antidepressants and anxiolytics for many people. Many medicines are used off-label for purposes that are not officially recognised.
Of course -- but read what my argument really is before, not that they cannot be used, but that since they are not in the current realm of even off-label use typically, doctors do and have had their licenses yanked. And I don't speak for doctors or drug companies or anything one way or the other, but do you really think that's a good thing?
>
> >I will never be for the casual use of synthetic opiates.
>
> How do you know your opinion will never change, and why the aversion to synthetic opiates? - just curious.The aversion was to casual use of opiates, especially C-II ones. Okay, go ahead, lets go back to before around 1970 and go into the pharmacy and get your codeine. Addiction will happen, eventually. It just seems like something out of the Erowid vaults, which I suppose are an interesting read until you see the sheer amount of things people are experimenting with at the same time.
>
> >-- I suppose the poppy tea might be harmless once or twice but the strength is so unknown --
>
> There's good reason to think it is likely to be more dangerous than low dose codeine preparations for that very reason.Possibly -- although very minor amounts of un- concentrated resin probably are about at that level.
>
> >And then its a slippery slope -- lets put meth on the cough and cold aisle...
> No it isn't. There are safer and more effective drugs for simple cold preparations.It was humour. Obviously there are safer drugs and the whole Sudafed PE thing is ridiculous, lets take Neo-Synephrine and say it works just as well and have multiple state and federal laws and pharmacies that don't understand any of them and have cards outside that don't add up to their real stock behind the counter. In a large enough city, you can still pay a bunch of dorks to go around to every chain store and buy the legal limit, daily, signing the poison statement that sinus and allergy sufferers have to loathly do. Its lame.
Anyone wanting a steady legal supply of crystal meth could try for a diagnosis of ADHD, claim to get a poor response to Adderall, Ritalin and Dexedrine and, just possibly if they're a good actor and have no history of substance misuse, get a prescription for Desoxyn. That's assuming that they're not content to have access to those first three powerful synthetic stimulants in the first place.
I'm not quite sure where this side argument came in -- actually I've heard of sort of the opposite, if it works properly because a number of people addicted to crystal meth actually may have actual use of legal amounts of it because of a pre-existing mental illness.
> >Opiates will get you addicted, eventually. Benzodiazepines, regulated, may get you habituated if not kept in check, but there's a wide difference.
>
> I found opiates easier to quit than benzos and I did develop a major drug addiction (not simply habituation) to clonazepam despite having no previous history of substance misuse. Tolerance developed so rapidly to the euphoric effects of tramadol that I voluntarily quit cold turkey after a few months. I had to be forced to quit benzos and it was agony - every bit as painful as opiate withdrawal. Opiates made me optimistic and cheerful, but I could live without them. Benzos seemed to affect me more deeply - I've said before that opiates enhanced my life wonderfully while they worked, but benzos I sometimes feel I need just to survive.
Well, perhaps that is your body chemistry and I have no ad-hominem comments about that, but I still see differences between continued use of opiates, especially the hard C-II ones, and benzodiazepines, which were created to address a slew of problems with anxiolytics such as the "safer" quaaludes, and barbiturates, etc.I know for some, a-la trainspotting, yes, you can get off of opiates "easier", but that's not the case for all. And yes, true addiction to benzodiazepines, unregulated amounts for months or years will require proper tapering. I well know about habituation -- I quit one years ago when I didn't really know much about how they worked and I still have occasional odd head spasms -- oh, they were there for weeks at the time. The student health clinic and the *** of a psychiatrist didnt see the danger going on and I was put back on only half the Tranxene. Granted maybe I was on too much eventually at the time but they should have tapered. Anyhow, that's my story with one.
I still take benzodiazepines, I suppose I'm no longer benzodiazepine naive -- but I metabolize them differently these days I think, I'm generally a fast metabolizer to a lot of things but that's neither here nor there. But I believe in their relative safety compared to other psychiatric medication and I've been through a laundry list just like others here too.
Anyhow, I know that they have to be withdrawn from slowly. But the thing is, they will always be there the next day -- the safety margin is high as far as respiratory depression and all sorts of nasty things unless you have a severely compromised liver, in which case one shouldn't be on high levels of a lot of things.
> I don't see the wide difference you're seeingWell that's allright, we can all have differences in viewpoints. There was a time when opiates, and everything else even more toxic was sold as snake oil in this country. Sure, you may be able to withdraw from some medium-grade opiate but eventually if you're addicted to morphine, there's a point of no return -- sometimes deliberatly, and for terminal pain I see no problem with that.
As for what followed the roaring 20s, and the whole silly crop of anti-marijuana movies and eventual acts passed, well -- I could care less about legal use of dope provided we're not talking about 13 year olds getting high all the time.
I guess there's differences in gradation of things -- I don't believe in the ideology that let's make it all legal and then there won't be any drug problems. I don't see it happening.And the real crux of the argument was the response to a question of "Whats the cheapest opiate?" It just rings out like "What offshore pharmacy can I find...?"
-- tidings
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.