Posted by yxibow on December 28, 2006, at 4:17:07
In reply to Re: Whats the cheapest opiate? » yxibow, posted by Quintal on December 26, 2006, at 18:10:37
> >Why can't we allow 14 year olds to shoot up heroin before going to middle school ? I just do not get this line of discussion.
>
> How does OTC analgesics containing small amounts of codeine translate into 14 year olds taking IV Heroin? A significant portion of 14 year olds will have already swallowed their morning hit of prescribed amphetamine - some will actually be taking crystal meth in the form of Desoxyn tablets. That seems a crazy double standard to me. So if it's OK to give the 'ADHD' kids a supply of amphetamines why do you think it's so wrong to allow treatment resistant depressives access to opiates with limited abuse potential such as buprenorphine?
You're not quite linking the idea of limited trials of opiates with the backing of at least a university or corporation with treatment resistant depressives with one or two psychiatrists handing out scripts for buprenorphine. These scripts go to pharmacies -- pharmacies see strange patterns of possible polypharmacy with the buprenorphine, Doctor X gets a friendly letter from the DEA and has to explain why he's prescribing opiates so he can pay his mortgage. That's my argument. Not that there can't be research, but the repercussion
that prescribing out of the current realm of psychiatric practices, whether you like our DEA or not (and I have a few views about them too), will land you without a practice.
As for Desoxyn or the oft prescribed Ritalin -- I think it can tend to be an overprescribed regime for those under the fully developed adult age which actually isn't until about 21 or 22 for everything, at least males, but it does have its uses with tough ADHD cases. Its also in triplicates or tamper proof prescriptions depending what state you're in and again, is subject to DEA snooping on doctors who prescribe out of the current realm of practice.>
> >Yeah, percocet was fun after a wisdom tooth operation for a few days plus constipation, but that's about what its meant for.
>
> What do you mean by:"but that's about what its meant for."? Opiates are effective antidepressants and anxiolytics for many people. Many medicines are used off-label for purposes that are not officially recognised.
Of course -- but read what my argument really is before, not that they cannot be used, but that since they are not in the current realm of even off-label use typically, doctors do and have had their licenses yanked. And I don't speak for doctors or drug companies or anything one way or the other, but do you really think that's a good thing?
>
> >I will never be for the casual use of synthetic opiates.
>
> How do you know your opinion will never change, and why the aversion to synthetic opiates? - just curious.The aversion was to casual use of opiates, especially C-II ones. Okay, go ahead, lets go back to before around 1970 and go into the pharmacy and get your codeine. Addiction will happen, eventually. It just seems like something out of the Erowid vaults, which I suppose are an interesting read until you see the sheer amount of things people are experimenting with at the same time.
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> >-- I suppose the poppy tea might be harmless once or twice but the strength is so unknown --
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> There's good reason to think it is likely to be more dangerous than low dose codeine preparations for that very reason.Possibly -- although very minor amounts of un- concentrated resin probably are about at that level.
>
> >And then its a slippery slope -- lets put meth on the cough and cold aisle...
> No it isn't. There are safer and more effective drugs for simple cold preparations.It was humour. Obviously there are safer drugs and the whole Sudafed PE thing is ridiculous, lets take Neo-Synephrine and say it works just as well and have multiple state and federal laws and pharmacies that don't understand any of them and have cards outside that don't add up to their real stock behind the counter. In a large enough city, you can still pay a bunch of dorks to go around to every chain store and buy the legal limit, daily, signing the poison statement that sinus and allergy sufferers have to loathly do. Its lame.
Anyone wanting a steady legal supply of crystal meth could try for a diagnosis of ADHD, claim to get a poor response to Adderall, Ritalin and Dexedrine and, just possibly if they're a good actor and have no history of substance misuse, get a prescription for Desoxyn. That's assuming that they're not content to have access to those first three powerful synthetic stimulants in the first place.
I'm not quite sure where this side argument came in -- actually I've heard of sort of the opposite, if it works properly because a number of people addicted to crystal meth actually may have actual use of legal amounts of it because of a pre-existing mental illness.
> >Opiates will get you addicted, eventually. Benzodiazepines, regulated, may get you habituated if not kept in check, but there's a wide difference.
>
> I found opiates easier to quit than benzos and I did develop a major drug addiction (not simply habituation) to clonazepam despite having no previous history of substance misuse. Tolerance developed so rapidly to the euphoric effects of tramadol that I voluntarily quit cold turkey after a few months. I had to be forced to quit benzos and it was agony - every bit as painful as opiate withdrawal. Opiates made me optimistic and cheerful, but I could live without them. Benzos seemed to affect me more deeply - I've said before that opiates enhanced my life wonderfully while they worked, but benzos I sometimes feel I need just to survive.
Well, perhaps that is your body chemistry and I have no ad-hominem comments about that, but I still see differences between continued use of opiates, especially the hard C-II ones, and benzodiazepines, which were created to address a slew of problems with anxiolytics such as the "safer" quaaludes, and barbiturates, etc.I know for some, a-la trainspotting, yes, you can get off of opiates "easier", but that's not the case for all. And yes, true addiction to benzodiazepines, unregulated amounts for months or years will require proper tapering. I well know about habituation -- I quit one years ago when I didn't really know much about how they worked and I still have occasional odd head spasms -- oh, they were there for weeks at the time. The student health clinic and the *** of a psychiatrist didnt see the danger going on and I was put back on only half the Tranxene. Granted maybe I was on too much eventually at the time but they should have tapered. Anyhow, that's my story with one.
I still take benzodiazepines, I suppose I'm no longer benzodiazepine naive -- but I metabolize them differently these days I think, I'm generally a fast metabolizer to a lot of things but that's neither here nor there. But I believe in their relative safety compared to other psychiatric medication and I've been through a laundry list just like others here too.
Anyhow, I know that they have to be withdrawn from slowly. But the thing is, they will always be there the next day -- the safety margin is high as far as respiratory depression and all sorts of nasty things unless you have a severely compromised liver, in which case one shouldn't be on high levels of a lot of things.
> I don't see the wide difference you're seeingWell that's allright, we can all have differences in viewpoints. There was a time when opiates, and everything else even more toxic was sold as snake oil in this country. Sure, you may be able to withdraw from some medium-grade opiate but eventually if you're addicted to morphine, there's a point of no return -- sometimes deliberatly, and for terminal pain I see no problem with that.
As for what followed the roaring 20s, and the whole silly crop of anti-marijuana movies and eventual acts passed, well -- I could care less about legal use of dope provided we're not talking about 13 year olds getting high all the time.
I guess there's differences in gradation of things -- I don't believe in the ideology that let's make it all legal and then there won't be any drug problems. I don't see it happening.And the real crux of the argument was the response to a question of "Whats the cheapest opiate?" It just rings out like "What offshore pharmacy can I find...?"
-- tidings
poster:yxibow
thread:716109
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061224/msgs/716866.html