![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 77 to 101 of 101. Go back in thread:
Posted by fachad on February 10, 2003, at 0:52:16
In reply to Re: Incompleteness and Residual Suffering, posted by not exactly on February 9, 2003, at 20:56:29
That is EXACTLY what I was thinking.
I was actually thinking about the Serenity Prayer when I wrote that post! But thanks for the fantastic revision of that classic, which says as much in one sentence as I said in a whole page.
> "God grant me the SERENITY to accept the things I cannot change, the COURAGE to change the things I can, and the MEDS to move as much as possible from the first category to the second."
>
Posted by not exactly on February 10, 2003, at 2:46:20
In reply to Yes, Exactly! » not exactly, posted by fachad on February 10, 2003, at 0:52:16
> That is EXACTLY what I was thinking.
>
> I was actually thinking about the Serenity Prayer when I wrote that post! But thanks for the fantastic revision of that classic, which says as much in one sentence as I said in a whole page.Glad you liked it. I'm not going to claim it was mental telepathy, but reading your insightful post reminded me of that old prayer. I quickly came up with that parody as a humorous way of paraphrasing what I thought was your essential concept.
- Bob
Posted by not exactly on February 10, 2003, at 3:18:18
In reply to Re: another version (for Laura) » not exactly, posted by LAURA777 on February 9, 2003, at 23:46:36
> you feeling better ??
Yes, thanks. Much better. For at least 3 reasons.
1) I finally finished a large unpleasant task that I had been procrastinating. So I feel good that I did it, that I did it well, and that it's no longer hanging over my head. And maybe the desipramine is finally helping my motivation.
2) I had made the mistake of changing 2 variables at once. I was trying to wean myself off of Neurontin [see http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030125/msgs/137900.html] at the same time I was waiting for the desipramine to kick in. The really bad WHY BOTHER syndrome hit the day after I had finally cut the Neurontin to zero. Later that evening, I realized that it might be relevant, and went back to taking a teeny bit of Neurontin. Within a day I felt much better. So I'll stay at this low level for a while longer before going cold turkey again.
3) Humor. No matter how low I'm feeling, if I can somehow laugh about something, it helps pull me out. The Serenity Prayer parodies were a successful exercise in humor therapy.
- Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2003, at 9:18:09
In reply to Re: Simplified Theories and Philosophical Musings » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 8, 2003, at 23:41:29
> I would like to share a few snippets from literature with you...things I've found to be very expressive of this anhedonia. But we're already way off topic, and Dr. Bob is gonna redirect us soon to Psycho-Social-Babble ... so if you're interested come over and look for the "anhedonia" thread.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030208/msgs/36701.html
Bob
Posted by rayww on February 12, 2003, at 0:16:15
In reply to Re: BUMMED OUT BIG TIME » not exactly, posted by LAURA777 on February 9, 2003, at 9:22:00
I understand what you are saying about the different layers of depression. From my experience you can have every one of your issues resolved. You can be physically fit, spiritually secure, emotionally cozy, but when it hits, it hits. The psychosis affects all the layers at once. you become spiritually wierd, emotionally warped, physically ill, socially inept. I really don't think you become just spiritually depressed or just emotionally crashed, or physically down.
I was labelled bipolar about three years ago. Before that I thought I just had issues to deal with, so I went from one issue to the next, and as soon as that was resolved, another would surface, until it seemed never ending. There was always another emotional issue to work out, dating back to my father's death, surgery, moving countries, shyness, relationships, at the same time managing a large family and business.
I used various methods of "working" my way into areas of work that needed done, and became the chart master, and I survived all right. I have a chart for every mood possible. But it seemed like the psychosis kept getting worse instead of better, even though my life's issues had eased up.
I was spiritually minded, making sure I scheduled time for daily prayer, scripture study, meditation, and journal writing. I was committed to community service, church service, physical exercise, and family. I have never had a substance addiction, but every time "it" hit me I went psychotic behind the scenes in my mind and would almost betray my family, but I never did.
Each time whatever it was hit me, it was a little worse, and finally my concerned family decided I needed an evaluation. I had two, a spiritual evaluation from my clergy leader, and a medical/mental evaluation from my doctor.
My year of hell was the one spent on medication. I felt emotionally shut down, couldn't get my words out, and yet I had to keep going in the positions I held. I didn't know enough about meds to know how to shop around, and epival and topomax was what I ended up with.
I guess the meds served their purpose because I was able to go off them after about a year. (who watches time any more?) My issues decreased in severity, but still kept surfacing until I tried some nutritional supplements, which seemed to take the edge off and bring me back around to a relatively normal state, if there is such.
Most of what surfaces I let out here on PB (like this right now) and comparing what I write now to how I was writing back then, it is very mild.
I am going on here, and I'm not quite sure if I'm still on topic, but I guess my main point of this was to say, about the layers of depression, my opinion is that even when every layer is problem free, biological depression can still strike for no apparent reason, other than your own mis-perception of what is going on in your life. Like for instance, I am bipolar and rotate around in moods, including sexual ones. When I'm off the sexual swing and my partner is on his, which is very predictable and regular, I can have a nervous break by just thinking about it. If he becomes determined I can feel raped, abused, and worthless, because I absolutely cannot and there is nothing I can do to make him understand I still love him and my love is not expressed by sex. (You can tell I've been there and done that again and again). It would be easy to blame the whole bipolar problem onto sex, and justify it, but in reality I know the problem was the psychosis and the warped perception. Actually, I wish someone could evaluate this and tell me, is it possible for sex to bring on a psychotic reaction and a nervous melt down?
Posted by JeffH on February 12, 2003, at 21:31:24
In reply to ADHEDONIA QUESTIONS ?? please read , posted by LAURA777 on February 2, 2003, at 16:53:01
I have visited Psycho Babble once in many months as I am doing so well.
Your story could easily be mine. I'm 47 and had depression and extreme anhedonia since the age of 12. Life was the grayest of grays.
Last year, I was prescribed Parnate. Within a week, I became manic (which I loved), which confirmed BipolarII. My doc and I, after discussion, lowered the dosage dramatically and then I slowly went back up to full dose.
The result? It was and is beautiful. Depressions gone. Anxiety gone. Irritability and rages gone. Anhedonia - 80% gone.
I am piecing my destroyed life back together.
I haven't read enough of your posts, but I think that you haven't tried a MAOI? Definitely worth a try if you haven't.
The diet restrictions should be followed vigilantly. I drank a couple glasses of red wine and was quickly in a hypertensive crisis. Scary.
Good luck and keep going. The drug(s) you're looking for are out there somewhere.
Jeff
Posted by LAURA777 on February 14, 2003, at 7:14:19
In reply to another version (for Laura), posted by not exactly on February 9, 2003, at 23:10:05
> "God grant me the SEROTONIN to accept the things I cannot change,
> the NOREPINEPHRINE to change the things I can,
> and the DOPAMINE to care which is which."
>Hey Bob , heres another version which i think more closely fits my situation ..
"God grant me the SEROTONIN to accept the things I cannot change,
the NOREPINEPHRINE to change the things I can,
and the ENDORPHINS to care which is which."
if you read about the HPA axis and the production of CRF ACTH and high levels of cortisol in the blood of depressed patients and substance abusers ( heroin when activiely taken lowers the NE and cortisol , that is why when someone withdrawals from heroin there is a backlash of high NE production ).. high levels of cortisol cause a dysfunction in the way opioid peptides are able to respond , it hinders them ..normal cortisol levels and when the negitive feedback loop is sucessful opioid peptides get released to conterbalance the stress anxiety reaction .. it is part of the checks and balances of our system .. dopamine is a neuromodulator of opiate peptides and opiate peptides are a neuromodulator of dopamine as well .. it depends what is happening in the system .. under stress that is not long acting, opiate peptides are released to counter balance the surge of norepinephrine in the flight of fight of stress .. but in chronic stress , for whatever reason , some people are very sensitve to stress , thier HPA axis goes into overdrive .. they believe that is why some people are more likely to become alcoholics and drug abusers .. we take substances to reach homostasis because of lack of opiate peptide production .. Sensitivity to Norepiniephrine or too much ??? i don't know ?? or your theory about dopamine converting to NE to fast ?? these could all be likely .. NE is the excititory neuro that acctivates the sympathetic nervous system , i have an overactive or sensitive (i do not know which ) sympathetic nervous sys.. i sweat under my arms way more the most people , fast metabolism , enormous energy hyper ,(except when i am bored and have to push this saps my energy late in afternoon), also tremendous ability to focus .. and theres the fact that i am sensitiive to all and evey stimulant .(even that little bit that they deliver with the novicaine in the dentist ) .There is more , but if you are not interested , i won't take up your time .. so let me know , thanks , laura
Posted by LAURA777 on February 18, 2003, at 16:23:15
In reply to Incompleteness and Anhedonia » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 9, 2003, at 21:48:09
"Ok, so you are describing anhedonia as if it were a defect of perception, like color blindness. You can experience the full range of negative emotions, but not the positive ones. And you are hopeful that this defect is based in and remediable by chemical processes"
what do you mean by this statement ??
are you saying that my expierience of my emotions and what is felt is contingient on my perception of them ???
like if i am happy i can change that emotion with a mere perception ???Anhedonia definition is , inability to expierience pleasure ... the positve feelings of our wonderful range of emotions is closely linked to our ability to expierience pleasure ..
if anhedoina meant the inability to expierience pleasure as well as the negitive emotions , it should be stated as such..
Endorphins are directly related to this .. and as far as i know there is nothing on this planet that enhances these except noxious addictive chemicals .. so basically i am screwed .. thanks , laura
Posted by fachad on February 19, 2003, at 13:18:28
In reply to fachad what do you mean??? » fachad, posted by LAURA777 on February 18, 2003, at 16:23:15
Laura,
> "Ok, so you are describing anhedonia as if it were a defect of perception, like color blindness..."
> what do you mean by this statement ??
All I meant by that was that at this point in your life, you were working from the perspective that anhedonia is based in physiological and chemical processes, and your efforts were directed toward understanding those processes, how they related to other psychopathologies like addiction, and how current pharmacotherapy could be utilized to correct the underlying problems.
> are you saying that my experience of my emotions and what is felt is contingent on my perception of them ???
No, just the opposite.
Someone who is biologically color blind does not have any influence on the way he sees color - that is determined by physical structures in his eyes, nerves, and brain. No matter how he deals with it, or what he decides it "means", he just doesn't have the visual experience of "green" or whatever, because the physical structures necessary to have that experience are not there.
> like if i am happy i can change that emotion with a mere perception ???
No, my earlier posts were suggestive along those lines. I was trying to present the possibility that SOME of the experiences you were describing were subject to interpretation and that a change of perspective COULD be a way to deal with them.
But as I read more of your posts, and looked at the articles you linked, I realized your perspective was oriented more toward understanding of biological underpinnings and pharmacological treatments. So I put up the post in question to let you know that I think I figured out where you are coming from.
>Anhedonia definition is , inability to experience pleasure ... the positive feelings of our wonderful range of emotions is closely linked to our ability to experience pleasure ..
Did you check out the links from BLTC? Thinking about you reminded me of those articles, and when I went back and re-read them I really thought you would relate to that perspective and get something out of them. I don't know if you saw this post, but when I put it up I was thinking primarily of you and how it fit your situation:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030208/msgs/140654.html
> Endorphins are directly related to this .. and as far as i know there is nothing on this planet that enhances these except noxious addictive chemicals .. so basically i am screwed ..
Not everyone believes you are screwed; the whole BLTC effort described in the above link is really a multi-layered attack on the exact problems you are describing. Take another look thru their stuff, and click thru a few links from their sites, and possibly this will enable to see things more optimistically.
-fachad
Posted by LAURA777 on February 19, 2003, at 16:16:54
In reply to Re: fachad what do you mean??? » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 19, 2003, at 13:18:28
hey fachad , in my wonderings and workings on the interenet to understand this i have come across the BTLC many times , and have felt it was extremely helpful , especially the links to biopsychiatry.. my quest still continues ..
Fachad i have a real problem with too much NE (no mainia though i can sleep , i have never suffered from insomnia ) or i am sensitive to it to the extreme .. i have told you about the epinephrine and novicaine , and i also have axillary hyperhydrosis .. these glands are directly activated by adrenaline or epi .. it is worse in mornings and my heart also races ,(when i am doing absolutely nothing . but you see i never noticed , (about my heart that is ) because i have known nothing different . i do have alot of energy but there is no mania or dysphoric mania ..
the best way i can describe my physical state is that it seems my body is on a constant low level fight or flight . my sympathetic system is over active , Even though i am sitting here thinking nothing scary or anxious .. it seems my parasympethetic nervous system never kicks in , until i am exhausted by the end of the day .. or by late afternoon ..this not only causes pysical problems it also cause psycological ones as well .. What if i exhausted (little that i had) my endorphin supply ??? Could such a thing exist ?? thanks for you time , laura
Posted by LAURA777 on February 19, 2003, at 16:24:34
In reply to Re: fachad what do you mean??? » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 19, 2003, at 13:18:28
hey fachad . i am reading and still can't determine if all these drugs are norepinephrine enhancers ?? are they ??
i am very sensitive to any drug that elevates this nuero ..
See my depression is different in that i do not suffer from insomnia or hypersomnia . i do have to crash sometimes late afternoon due the epi rush i expierience every day .. my cognitive skills are sharp and there is no fog , the only thing i can pinpiont is the anhedonia and it is very real ..
so please let me know what you know about the maois and tca's pertaining to norepinephrine .. thanks for you time , lauraPs . it is like i am walking talking stimulant without mania .. prozac helped a great deal with this .. but my sympathetic is still in overdrive ..
Posted by fachad on February 19, 2003, at 20:28:39
In reply to grueling work but intellectually satisfying » fachad, posted by LAURA777 on February 19, 2003, at 16:16:54
Laura,
> hey fachad , in my wonderings and workings on the internet to understand this i have come across the BTLC many times...
Glad you've seen the BLTC sites. They really do have a lot of info, and I was excited just to see that someone else shared the philosophical perspective that happiness could and should be engineered.
> Fachad i have a real problem with too much NE...or i am sensitive to it to the extreme... i ...and my heart also races ...
my sympathetic system is over active...Have you ever considered a trying a beta blocker? These meds specifically target adrenergic sympathetic over activity.
I actually take a tiny dose of Toprol to squelch my sympathetic nervous system because it gets too fired up by the amount of dextroamphetamine required to give me enough dopamine to function.
Try doing some searches and find a bit out about beta blockers. They are quite remarkable and are somewhat underrated in psychiatry, IMHO.
If your problem really is due to too much NE, or excessive sensitivity to NE, or sympathetic over activity, then beta blockers would be the ideal meds for you.
Posted by bee happy on February 19, 2003, at 23:51:58
In reply to maois and tca 's in relation to norepinephrine » fachad, posted by LAURA777 on February 19, 2003, at 16:24:34
Hey Laura...Off topic, but I know you have an appointment with the Pdoc coming up soon. Hope you and the psychologist have your argumentative ducks in a row.Perhaps, as my therapist said to me "you present too well. Cry. Beg. Ask him to use you as a guinnea pig." Good luck. Bee
Posted by fachad on February 20, 2003, at 0:42:09
In reply to maois and tca 's in relation to norepinephrine » fachad, posted by LAURA777 on February 19, 2003, at 16:24:34
Laura,
>all these drugs are norepinephrine enhancers ?? are they ??
That's a trick question. They both enhance and diminish NE functioning. It goes something like this:
TCAs (especially desipramine and nortriptyline) are powerful SNRIs. So an immediate effect of taking them is that there is more NE in the synapse. In that sense they enhance or increase NE.
However, with repeated administration (about 2 weeks, if I remember correctly), the nervous system adjusts itself to this by "down-regulating" the NE receptors. The NE receptors become less sensitive and there become fewer of them. So in that sense, TCAs diminish NE functioning.
That is a very simple example of a phenomenon that gets very complicated. Sometimes there are three or four known "downstream" effects of a drug.
This downstream phenomena makes it very difficult to say, "this problem is due to a (lack, excess, whatever) of (NE, DA, 5HT, GABA, whatever) and can be 'fixed' by taking this medication which (enhances, blocks) that particular neurochemical.”
Any drug you take has immediate effects, and downstream effects, and chronic effects. Also, sometimes a drug has one effect and its active metabolite has different or even opposite effects.
I believe that our way of thinking about psychiatric drugs has been influenced by the conventional medical model of bacterial infections and antibiotics. You just culture to find the specific offending pathogen, and then treat with agent that is known to be effective for that particular bacteria.
That works great for killing bugs, but is not an adequate model for altering and shaping the biologically based subjective experiences of human beings.
Here's a few more thoughts along those lines
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020408/msgs/103154.html
> See my depression is different in that i do not suffer from insomnia or hypersomnia
Lucky you! Those are very hard to treat, especially if you have both.
>but my sympathetic is still in overdrive ..
I still think a beta blocker may be something to think about.
I also saw a reference tonight to using clonadine (an alpha adrenergic agent) in treatment of opiate addiction, somehow it lessened the suffering of those in withdrawal, and there was a known neurochemical pathway for this, something about DA and NE output in certain brain regions, but I can't find it now...
It may be worthwhile for you to look into alpha adrenergic agents used in treating opiate addiction, because opiate addiction and withdrawal may be a useful theoretical model for understanding your opiate relieved anhedonia.
Posted by not exactly on February 20, 2003, at 3:39:07
In reply to Re: maois and tca 's in relation to norepinephrine » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 20, 2003, at 0:42:09
> TCAs (especially desipramine and nortriptyline) are powerful SNRIs. So an immediate effect of taking them is that there is more NE in the synapse. In that sense they enhance or increase NE.
> However, with repeated administration (about 2 weeks, if I remember correctly), the nervous system adjusts itself to this by "down-regulating" the NE receptors. The NE receptors become less sensitive and there become fewer of them. So in that sense, TCAs diminish NE functioning.I've been taking desipramine for about 3 weeks. At first, I noticed anger, irritation, and a paradoxical _decrease_ in caring about anything pleasant or worthwhile [http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030208/msgs/140207.html]. Perhaps this was due to the initial NE increase. Now I'm finally noticing a real antidepressant effect, a more mellow and optimistic state. Could this be due to the NE "down-regulating"? And would this also explain why I _haven't_ been noticing any sustained improvement in motivation, focus, and energy (which has surprised and disappointed me)?
- Bob
Posted by LAURA777 on February 20, 2003, at 6:43:08
In reply to Re: maois and tca 's in relation to norepinephrine » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 20, 2003, at 0:42:09
hey Bob, nice to hear from you . it has taken me a long time to be able to clarify and articualate my problem..
now i want to thank you for the tca explanation . they are prodoxical aren't they ? and also throw into the mix the variances of each persons unique way they convert process these different drugs ..
clonodine and beta blockers are a good solution to abate my physical symptoms , but i wonder if they are going to be able to reverse the anhedonia ??? This being the most horrid symptom of the whole mess .. it is very subtle and i had to pay close attention .. feelings don't fluctuate dramtically (pure ephoria for a few hours followed by the crash in the other direction)like when you do street drugs ,,as you know natural feelings a more sublte way less extreme in both directions , the ebb and flow .. the problem i am expieriencing is i just get a flowing ebb.
thanks for you time , laura
Posted by LAURA777 on February 20, 2003, at 7:58:03
In reply to Re: TCAs and NE » fachad, posted by not exactly on February 20, 2003, at 3:39:07
>
> I've been taking desipramine for about 3 weeks. At first, I noticed anger, irritation, and a paradoxical _decrease_ in caring about anything pleasant or worthwhile.. Perhaps this was due to the initial NE increase.Yes i do belive this is true !! our systems work on a ying and yang basis .. part of the calming nueros supress Ne production or increase reception .. or both ?? opioid peptides gaba are some of these nueros .. the Ne system in fight of flight and the opioid peptides work in conjuction with each other , from what i understand is , in this instance of fight or flight , the do not act independantly of each other .. But what if the opioid peptide tone is defunct ? this would explain why alcoholic and addicts have such a low threshold for the ability to deal with stress ..they also studied children of alcoholics and have seen the low threshold for stress .. little annyoyances can seem like mountains ...From what i understand of endorphins is , that when there are low levels , the primitive system of the brain keeps a tight rein on these , for emergency bodily situations , like being hit by a truck ...So little is left for the everyday living and feeling well .. this explains the push that i feel in doing everything ,i have the energy but the payoff is absent , hence your statement below
"WHY BOTHER syndrome is in full gear. I had planned to go to a party tonite, but now the thought of showering, getting dressed, and driving to it seem like far too much trouble. And what could I possibly enjoy at the party anyway? I don't want to be with people, or eat, or drink, or hear music. I just want to crawl in a hole somewhere. But I don't even feel like resting or sleeping. I don't know WHAT I want, and if I knew, it wouldn't be worth the effort"
It seems for me at least that "the excertion always outweighs the pleasure" ..why I _haven't_ been noticing any sustained improvement in motivation, focus, and energy (which has surprised and disappointed me)?
Because absence of NE in certin areas of the brain will cause poor focus ADHD and attention span .. Is your motivation factor because of no energy ?? or because you do not feel a payoff ??? let me know , thanks laura
Posted by LAURA777 on February 20, 2003, at 16:55:25
In reply to Re: maois and tca 's in relation to norepinephrine » LAURA777, posted by bee happy on February 19, 2003, at 23:51:58
hey bee , i will let you know what happens tomorrow , also can you tell me why you take 2mgs 3 x a day ,, instead of 6mgs at once , i am very ignorant when it comes to buprenorphine and i can only go by what i read of the pamphlet on line , so let me know , thanks laura
Posted by LAURA777 on February 20, 2003, at 17:05:49
In reply to Re: maois and tca 's in relation to norepinephrine » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 20, 2003, at 0:42:09
hey fachad , they give clonodine to withdrawl from heroin because they get a NE backlash causing the withdrawl symptoms .. i know this because i was given clonodine 12 years ago when i was addicted to heroin .. anyway , they had to lower my dose because i got very lightheaded... i almost fainted .. i sort of blacked out ..
well i go see the pdoc tomorrow , and i will be sure to let you know what he said ..i would really like to try buprenorphine though .. Dr. Bodkin said i would need about 2 mgs a day or not much higher .. (yes i did speak with him a few times ) i will let you know , thanks laura
Posted by bee happy on February 21, 2003, at 13:12:17
In reply to hey bee » bee happy, posted by LAURA777 on February 20, 2003, at 16:55:25
> hey bee , i will let you know what happens tomorrow , also can you tell me why you take 2mgs 3 x a day ,, instead of 6mgs at once , i am very ignorant when it comes to buprenorphine and i can only go by what i read of the pamphlet on line , so let me know , thanks laura
Hi Laura. I tried both ways. For me it is a bit smoother spreading it out...also I find that absorbtion varies sublingualy (sp?) depending on how dry your mouth is. I think possibly the reason I originally spread the dose was because I read that they did it that way in the Harvard study? I'm sure either is fine. Look forward to hearing from you after your first day. I sincerely hope that this works for you as well it has for me.Goooood luck! Bee
Posted by LAURA777 on February 21, 2003, at 17:19:47
In reply to Re: hey bee, posted by bee happy on February 21, 2003, at 13:12:17
i am back and very dissapointed , i seem not to fit nicely in any disorder that is listed in his book of disorders DSM book and such , he has no diagnosis as of yet , and i am told he will look into buprenorphine , i also gave him Dr. bodkins number , ....
I just called Dr. , bodkin again.. to inform him, that my pdoc will be in contact ..bee can i have your phone number ??? here is my email cypress7@frontiernet.net .. please email me , and i can call you ,there is so much that i have learned in this area.. it would take up to much room here and i would rather convey it to you over the phone .. that is if you are comfortable with that .. i have done enormous research in this area , and why buprenorphine works , there are just a handful of us out here but enough so that they should pay attention ...
anyway , the upshot is i did not get a good reaction from the pdoc , he did not understand , my condition . i did not fit the profile .. and the reason is ..... is that the profile does not consider the fact that the endorphin system can be dysregulated ..there are many diseases , and these diseases are caused by disregulation of some system . our endorphins are a big part of this system and they play a major role in the systems .. but because they were named after the most addictive substances on earth , they are viewed as taboo .. and very little has been done to look into this system.. until now .. they are begining to realize that Endorphins are important neurotransmiters and neuromodulators.. and that they need to be looked at and addressed.. Dr Bodkin knows this because he teaches and has to be informed. and the lateset implication in addiction and may i stress many other areas involve the endorphin system , i hope that i can talk with you soon , thanks laura
Posted by bee happy on February 21, 2003, at 23:54:40
In reply to Re: hey bee » bee happy, posted by LAURA777 on February 21, 2003, at 17:19:47
Hi Laura..I am so sorry about your disappointing dr visit. Here is a little snippet I found on the FAQ pages of this board. I also found some information about something Dr Bob calls Babble mail...Perhaps we can communicate through that forum. Check it out at toward the bottom of the FAQ page. You must register for it . I already have, but I get a message saying my server doesn't recognise the url.I have a message into Administration to find out how to make it work. Sorry but I am uncomfortable giving out my email address or phone...In the meantime can you talk to your therapist again about another referral.Why oh why is everyone so afraid of this medication? According to alot of posters on this board...it's easier to get those oh so safe drugs such as dexidrine or oxycontin...It's pathetic.More later. Bee. What does FDA approval mean?
It is important to recognize that it is never a drug or other
product that is approved or not approved, but a claim about the
use of the drug or product... Neither the FDA nor the Federal
government regulate the practice of medicine. Any approved
product may be used by a licensed practitioner for uses other
than those stated in the product label. Off-label use is not
illegal, but means that the data to support that use have not
been independently reviewed by the FDA. --US Food and Drug
Administration
Posted by LAURA777 on February 22, 2003, at 8:36:21
In reply to Re: hey bee, posted by bee happy on February 21, 2003, at 23:54:40
Hey Bee , i understant your feelings on the email phone issue.. but the upshot of what i found out is ... Some people are born (especially in families with alcohol, depression and substance abuse , and just plain abuse ) with a dysregulation in the endorphin system .. life becomes very hard for these people , everything is a struggle .. not much is enjoyed .. the only drugs that are available for this are opiates in some form..
Buprenorphine is great because of it's mildness and its agonist and antagonist approach .. i do hope that Dr. Bodkin can convey this to my Doctor . or i feel that i am doomed ... :( thanks for your help , laura
Posted by bee happy on February 23, 2003, at 23:04:04
In reply to Re: hey bee » bee happy, posted by LAURA777 on February 22, 2003, at 8:36:21
Laura, You spoke with Dr Bodkin? Check your email and get back to me.
Posted by baracuda on March 9, 2003, at 17:25:33
In reply to ADHEDONIA QUESTIONS ?? please read , posted by LAURA777 on February 2, 2003, at 16:53:01
did SSRI make it worse ???
not so far... prozac has made it a bit better. ritalin made it ALOT better in the beginning but then stopped being so effective.if ssri was augmented with a stimulant like dexadrine or welbutrin , were you a wide awake flat person ???
no i was awake and excited. but only for about an hour and a half.do you suffer from hypersomnia when non medicated or just medicated with ssri ?? non-medicated
do opiates help you fell normal ?? no
do opiates stimulate you but yet you are calm ?? no
do any of you get sleepy on opiates ??? i feel very calm and worry free and relaxed.
This is the end of the thread.
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