![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 45 to 69 of 101. Go back in thread:
Posted by not exactly on February 7, 2003, at 16:30:40
In reply to Re: Mirapex/Selegiline/Parnate » not exactly, posted by jumpy on February 6, 2003, at 23:18:34
> I haven't heard of people having difficulties with the switch from the patch to the pill and problems with the metabolite "ratios". Sorry to hear you were one of the few with this reaction.
Orally-administered selegiline results in significant exposure to numerous active metabolites, including l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine. At the dosages required to induce robust MAO inhibition (MAO-A as well as B), these metabolites can dramatically alter the side effects and overall experience of selegiline, especially for those individuals (such as myself) who are highly sensitive to sympathomimetics. The selegiline patch avoids most of these problems by circumventing first-pass gut metabolism.
see:
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/ncdeu/abstracts2001/ncdeu2011.cfm
http://www.parkinson.org/med25.htm> Actually, the diet is pretty healthy and easy to follow. No sausage, cheese, certain wines and beers ... they all add to a slimmer waistline and healthier heart.
The MAOI diet might be easy for some folks, but for me it would mean a radical change in lifestyle. I live on cheeseburgers, chocolate candy, and other junk food. I eat in ethnic restaurants where the menu items don't list all the ingredients and the servers don't speak much English. I go to potluck dinner parties. Cheese, soy sauce, aged meats, and other tasty tyramine tidbits could be lurking anywhere.
Before you try to tell me that I'd be much better off with a different diet, let me point out that I'm slim, fit, and quite healthy. I have low cholesterol and normal blood pressure. Even though I'm 56, most people think I'm in my 30's, especially if they've seen me dance non-stop for hours or trot up a steep mountain trail. I'm in fine physical shape despite (or perhaps because of) my "terrible" diet. My pcp is impressed - claims I have "good genes".
> if pizza mean that much to you, I guess your stuck. :-(
My comment about "How can I live without pepperoni pizza?" was mostly meant as a joke, but it is true that I really love pepperoni pizza - it's one of the few joys in my pleasure-starved anhedonic existence. Probably more than half of my favorite foods contain dangerous amounts of tyrosine. But my hesitancy to try MAOI meds is not because I'm reluctant to deprive myself, it's because I'm concerned about the irreversible side effect known as "accidental death".
I'm sure I'll try a "real" MAOI like Parnate eventually. My intellectual curiosity and my need to "leave no stone unturned" will ultimately be stronger motivating factors than my quest for better mental health (which is too often impeded by my pervasive "why bother" attitude). But it will be a daring and scary step.
- Bob
Posted by missinglynxx on February 7, 2003, at 17:36:27
In reply to Re: Mirapex/Selegiline/Parnate » jumpy, posted by not exactly on February 7, 2003, at 16:30:40
Bob.. would you be unable to Eat Szechwan FOOD on the Parnate, that would Really SUCK... ( I cant live with Szechwan)Cant you drink White wine tho
And cant you eat NON aged,,,Monterry Jack type cheese for those cravings you get. or Mozarella Cheese? Just curious.. GOOD Luck
How have you done on Nortriptyline?
Posted by LAURA777 on February 7, 2003, at 19:11:35
In reply to Re: Mirapex/Selegiline/Parnate » jumpy, posted by not exactly on February 7, 2003, at 16:30:40
Hi Bob , it sounds like you have a fast metabolism too ,, are you also sensitive to ephedrine products in cold meds ?? i do not know if you read my post but the provigil sent me flying .. yuk , the doc gave me 200 mg. i took one at 10.00 am and was up to 3.00 am , and the day before i took one at 8.00 am and stayed up till 3.00 am . i felt miserable physically and emotionally , nervous energy .. needless to say i will not take anymore .. also i could not eat at all .
i read somewhere that tyrosine converts to dopa then dopa converts to dopamine ,then dopamine to norepinephrine then to epinephrine . i have also read that if you have a fast metabolisim that you have plenty norepinephrine .. if that is the case . where is my dopamine ???
when you go to the dentist does epinephrine bother you in the novicaine , do you get a reaction ..
i do hope that i can find a solution because i am miserable .Bob what is responsible for motivation and interest , i get conflicting reports when i read , some say it is norepinephrine some say dopamine .
Also do you think the mesolimbic system is responsible for anhedonia ?? do you think a deficiency in opiods is responsible too ..??
What do people do ?? i can't bear to think i have to be like this till i die ..
bupenorphrine is something i would like to try . because of the positive feelings i had with percocet and vicodin ..
i think my energy level is fine , it is the boredom that sends me to sleep , and it is hard to wake in the mornings cause i know what is ahead of me . more boredom .. and the endless push .. and because i have to push i get tired.. this routine would sap anyones energy .
i see alot of links that link cocaine abuse to anhedonia . and i also see also of links about drug/alcohol abuse in general causing anhedonia , and they also say it is prexisting genetics .
i have also read that constant stress raises our level of norepinephrine fight or flight and if we get enough stress for too long are endorphins become no longer able to work .. hence blunted feelings like post tramatic stress disorder ..
do you think having constant high levels of norepinephrine all through the years of your life cause this also ??? please let me hear what you have to say on many of my questions , i do thank you for you time ,laura
Posted by LAURA777 on February 7, 2003, at 19:48:30
In reply to Re: Mirapex/Selegiline/Parnate » jumpy, posted by not exactly on February 7, 2003, at 16:30:40
do you think that all the sensitivity to the stimulants is because of lots of norepinephrine ? is that what highly sensitive to sympathomimetics means ?? being senstive to stimulants ,, because if that is what it means then i am this also with out a doubt .. please let me know , laura
Posted by not exactly on February 7, 2003, at 20:00:49
In reply to Re: Mirapex/Selegiline/Parnate » not exactly, posted by missinglynxx on February 7, 2003, at 17:36:27
> would you be unable to Eat Szechwan FOOD on the Parnate
Yes, I fear that Szechwan food would be risky because it often contains soy sauce. That's a common ingredient in most oriental cuisines. Worse yet, Thai food (my favorite) often contains fish sauce. I've never seen fish sauce on a list of MAOI taboos, but since it's made from fermented anchovies, I bet it's chock full of tyramine. Italian & Mexican are of course loaded with cheese. Indian food might be OK, but nobody knows what's in those curries.
> Cant you drink White wine
White wine is safer than red, but I MUCH prefer red. I'll just stick with water, which is my favorite beverage anyway.
> And cant you eat NON aged,,,Monterry Jack type cheese for those cravings you get. or Mozarella Cheese?
Non-aged cheeses are OK, but a poor substitute for the sharp-tasting (and highly fatal) varieties.
> How have you done on Nortriptyline?
Thanks for asking. I'm on desipramine, actually (I guess they're pretty similar). It's been a week, and so far the improvement has been subtle. My mood & concentration are somewhat improved, but so far it hasn't noticably helped with procrastination or anhedonia. At least the side effects haven't been a problem - very minimal and already abating. Each day it's a little better - encouraging.
- Bob
Posted by not exactly on February 7, 2003, at 21:57:48
In reply to hey bob can you give me some info !!! » not exactly, posted by LAURA777 on February 7, 2003, at 19:11:35
Laura,
> it sounds like you have a fast metabolism too
I guess I must. I can eat like a horse and still fit into size 30 jeans.
> are you also sensitive to ephedrine products in cold meds ?
Definitely. They work fine for me as long as I make sure I don't take any more than 1/4 the recommended dose.
> provigil sent me flying .. yuk , the doc gave me 200 mg
I've never dared to take 200mg at once. 50 mg b.i.d. worked well for me.
> i read somewhere that tyrosine converts to dopa then dopa converts to dopamine ,then dopamine to norepinephrine then to epinephrine
Sounds right. BTW, you left out the first step - phenylalanine (much more common in food than tyrosine) gets converted to tyrosine. Don't forget that enzymes and cofactors are needed to make each conversion happen, so if there's a deficiency anywhere, it's like closing a valve. Conversely, an overactive enzyme can deplete the precursors. This is an oversimplification, but you get the idea.
> i have also read that if you have a fast metabolisim that you have plenty norepinephrine
Perhaps. That's no doubt an oversimplification too.
> if that is the case . where is my dopamine ???
One possibility is an overzealous enzyme that's converting every bit of dopamine it can find into norepinephrine. But I'm sure there are numerous other possible explanations.
In some cases, there's enough dopamine, but a deficiency of neurons that respond to it. This happens in the later stages of Parkinson's Disease, for example.
> when you go to the dentist does epinephrine bother you in the novicaine , do you get a reaction ..
Hard to say. Epinephrine, as you may know, is just another word for adrenaline. When the dentist turns on the damn drill, I probably generate plenty of my own.
> what is responsible for motivation and interest , i get conflicting reports when i read , some say it is norepinephrine some say dopamine.
My simplistic understanding is that motivation/drive is mediated by norepinephrine, pleasure/reward is mediated by dopamine, and satisfaction/joy is mediated by serotonin. "Interest" is a more complex emotion that probably needs all 3 working together.
> Also do you think the mesolimbic system is responsible for anhedonia ?? do you think a deficiency in opiods is responsible too ..??
Can't say. Now you're moving away from my area of expertise. I understand the chemistry, but you've probably researched brain structure/function much more than I have.
> What do people do ?? i can't bear to think i have to be like this till i die ..
Unfortunately, "trial and error" seems to be the state of the art. You need to be persistent, reflective, insightful, and patient. Having a good pdoc and good health insurance helps too.
> i see alot of links that link cocaine abuse to anhedonia . and i also see also of links about drug/alcohol abuse in general causing anhedonia , and they also say it is prexisting genetics .
> i have also read that constant stress raises our level of norepinephrine fight or flight and if we get enough stress for too long are endorphins become no longer able to work .. hence blunted feelings like post tramatic stress disorder ..
> do you think having constant high levels of norepinephrine all through the years of your life cause this also ???Stress (of various types) can lead to depletion of certain neurotransmitters. This can diminish one's ability to cope with the stress, thereby amplifying the effect of the stress and causing a vicious cycle.
> do you think that all the sensitivity to the stimulants is because of lots of norepinephrine ? is that what highly sensitive to sympathomimetics means ?? being senstive to stimulants
Sympathomimetics are agents which act like the body's natural hormones (specifically epinephrine and norepinephrine) that stimulate the sympathetic nervous system. Sympathomimetics are therefore (directly or indirectly) stimulants, and most meds which are called "stimulants" are in fact sympathomimetics. But there are exceptions. Provigil and caffeine are certainly stimulants, but they are not true sympathomimetics.
However, hypersensitivity to stimulants is very different from "having too much norepinephrine". The sensitivity simply means that a small amount of a stimulant has a big effect. High norepinephrine levels wouldn't cause this sensitivity, but might possibly be a result of it.
I am extremely sensitive to stimulants, but I think my norepinephrine levels are if anything too low. I say this because meds which are known to increase norepinephrine, such as amphetamines, Wellbutrin, and desipramine, have a positive effect on me.
But I may be just as confused about what all this really means as the next guy. Like you, I read a lot, and try to put it all together in a way that makes sense. But we're all just groping around in the dark. When we find something that works (a drug, a belief, an activity), we stick with it until it fails us. Then we move on.
- Bob
PS: I really enjoy your questions and theories. It's given me a lot to think about and respond to.
Posted by fachad on February 7, 2003, at 22:22:34
In reply to Re: stimulants / anhedonia » not exactly, posted by LAURA777 on February 6, 2003, at 19:21:52
Laura777,
Have you or your pdoc ever considered that you might be bipolar, and that your primary symptoms are actually a manifestation of dysphoric hypomania?
I only ask because of your description of your state as both high energy and unpleasant. Also to me (a very lethargic low energy person) the style of your posts seem to be like descriptions I have read of bit pressured speech.
Here is the link:
http://bipolar.about.com/library/blmisc/bl-faq-presspeech.htm
I hope that my suggesting this possibility does not offend you. It's just an observation, and all I have to go on is your posts. I'm just throwing it out as a possibility to consider.
Posted by fachad on February 7, 2003, at 22:39:28
In reply to ADHEDONIA QUESTIONS ?? please read , posted by LAURA777 on February 2, 2003, at 16:53:01
I can't find the message where you said that you cannot tolerate pseudoephedrine, but I just wanted to throw in that I can't live without it. I can't breathe because of nasal congestion, and I consequently feel all around horrible.
I've been taking it regularly for as long as I can remember, long before any psych meds. I considered not trying Ritalin 10 years ago because my pdoc told me not to take Sudafed with it!
I ended up trying the Ritalin, and then cautiously adding back the Sudafed, monitoring my BP. My BP remained low, even on both.
It turns out that with Dextrostat and Sudafed combined, for the first time in my life I have enough sympathetic tone to be able to stand up quickly without passing out! woohoo!
Posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 6:24:25
In reply to dysphoric hypomania? » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 7, 2003, at 22:22:34
Hi fachad , no i am not at all offended , My sister has bipolor.. i have also looked up dysphoric bipolor , it is all very interesting ..
i do not think i have this for many reasons ..
i have never suffered from insomnia .. This for which i am very grateful .. i am very sensitive to stimulants , very , and the posts from feb. 5 and the 6th , i had taken provigil 200mg and i was flying .. so my writing may have been a little less ordered ..
all my life i have been discribed as hyper .. lots of energy .. prozac has changed this for me.. so the "push gota go gota go " has practically disappeared .. i used to think that i was adhd .. but i am able to sit and read for hours .. even prior to prozac ... plus i am not that irratible , no more that ordinary and i don't get pms ..
i have also been seeing a therapist for 3 years and i think he would have seen this in me if it were a diagnosis .... ( just in case i am in denial)
My theory is that my brain or body converts all my dopamine very quickly into norepinephrine .. this is very simplistic and i need to look into it .. i enjoy your posts by the way , and i see that you like philosophy , i do too .. can you tell me about the philosophy that you mentioned in previous posts ??? thanks , laura
Posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 7:20:49
In reply to Re: hey bob can you give me some info » LAURA777, posted by not exactly on February 7, 2003, at 21:57:48
> I guess I must. I can eat like a horse and still fit into size 30 jeans.
hey Bob you have a fast metabolisim
I have a theory , First let me say that when i go to the dentist , i get a very bad reaction to the epinephrine , my heart starts to pound , i shake , tremors , and i get halos in my vision like migraine auras ...
Now to my theory , When i did cocaine , the pleasure or so called euphoria was very short acting for me .. i went straight to the crappy feeling faster than most people from what i can observe .. do you think that my brain converts dopamine right to norepinephrine .. i remeber in a previous post you had mentioned that cocaine has little to do with NE .. i disagree .. the stimulant effect is directly related to NE .. don't you think ..
Heres something else.. when most people do opiates they get sedated .. I do not . i am awake , but it is pleasant , not like on stimulants , the only reason i can account for this is the opiate (endorphin) property of this drug .. like a good balance .. to further this , when opiates are taken, they shut up the fight of flight chemicals . it lowers the Ne .. While on Heroin there is no stress .. to even go further .. When withdrawling from heroin the NE goes why up .. hence the leg twitches diarhea , cramps , elevated blood pressure , anxious , irritable, sort of like being on stimulants ..They know that the body acts as if in fight or flight ...as you may know they give people clonidine to help smooth these reactions ..As you know Ne regulates blood pressure ,metabolism , energy level ..what if someone has a dysfuction of Ne , meaning the dopamine is eaten up to NE and as a result the person may on a low level, but constant , expierience fight of flight anxiousness ....resulting in a dysfunction of the endorphins not workinng like they are supposed too . i correlate this with what they know about post tramatic stress syndrome .. please give me your thoughts on this .. it is my theory that i have a depleation in dopamine as well as endorphins .. thanks laura
Posted by JaneB on February 8, 2003, at 7:26:04
In reply to Psuedoephedrine is My Most Important Med » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 7, 2003, at 22:39:28
> I can't find the message where you said that you cannot tolerate pseudoephedrine, but I just wanted to throw in that I can't live without it. I can't breathe because of nasal congestion, and I consequently feel all around horrible.
>
> I've been taking it regularly for as long as I can remember, long before any psych meds. I considered not trying Ritalin 10 years ago because my pdoc told me not to take Sudafed with it!Interesting! Have you tried other allergy meds? I tried 3 and they made me lethargic,etc.
>
> I ended up trying the Ritalin, and then cautiously adding back the Sudafed, monitoring my BP. My BP remained low, even on both.What brand/dosage of Sudafed do you take? Does it interfere with your sleep? I can't remember what other meds you are taking. Could you remind me. My BP remains low and without the Sudafed I get dizzy sometimes from just bending over. A little annoying when doing many work and pleasure activities!
If I don't take Sudafed I invariably wake up with a headache.
>
> It turns out that with Dextrostat and Sudafed combined, for the first time in my life I have enough sympathetic tone to be able to stand up quickly without passing out! woohoo!
>
Posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 10:16:54
In reply to Re: hey bob can you give me some info » LAURA777, posted by not exactly on February 7, 2003, at 21:57:48
hey bob , check this article out , it correlates with what i have been saying
http://www.neurogenesis.cc/newinsights.htmalso cocaine is a NE agonist , and my suspicion is it quickly converts to epinephrine , hence the paranoia , because they say the epinephrine is in invovled in fight or flight .. what do you think ??? any addiction in your family ???
Posted by not exactly on February 8, 2003, at 13:00:09
In reply to Re: hey Bob heres a theory !! » not exactly, posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 7:20:49
> I have a theory...
> do you think that my brain converts dopamine right to norepinephrineAn interesting theory. I wonder if the source of this theory is my recent post [http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030204/msgs/140070.html] when I suggested: "One possibility is an overzealous enzyme that's converting every bit of dopamine it can find into norepinephrine."
> i remeber in a previous post you had mentioned that cocaine has little to do with NE .. i disagree .. the stimulant effect is directly related to NE .. don't you think ..
I didn't say (or intend to imply) that. Cocaine is a potent dopamine reuptake inhibitor, and a somewhat less potent (tho nevertheless still fairly strong) norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. Its stimulant effect results from both of these actions. The way I stated it in my previous post [http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030204/msgs/139371.html] was "...cocaine has no direct effect on serotonin (it is generally understood to be a reuptake inhibitor of dopamine, and to a lesser extent NE)..."
> also cocaine is a NE agonist , and my suspicion is it quickly converts to epinephrine , hence the paranoia , because they say the epinephrine is in invovled in fight or flight
Cocaine is not really an "NE agonist" in the strict sence of the term. An NE agonist would directly stimulate NE receptors instead of (even in the absence of) actual NE. This is not how cocaine affects NE receptors. It only blocks NE reuptake, resulting in higher NE levels. The receptors are then stimulated by this additional NE, not by the cocaine itself.
But this "excess" NE in the brain synapses would not be "convered" to systemic (outside the brain) epinephrine. Systemic epinephrine is synthesized and released by the adrenal gland (hence the name "adrenaline") [see http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/adrenal/medhormones.html].
> any addiction in your family ???
Just me. I had an alcohol problem many years ago when I started drinking excessively in response to a very stressful job situation. Fortunately, my abusive boss got the axe and I was able to wean myself off. I don't drink at all now.
- Bob
Posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 16:44:16
In reply to Re: hey Bob » LAURA777, posted by not exactly on February 8, 2003, at 13:00:09
hey , well i think there may be truth to your theory . and the only reason i stated that cocaine was an ne agonist is because i read it on a nuerotransmitter synthesis site . they used it as an example that it was a good ne agonist but not a good anti-depressant ..
did you read that article about the opioids and genetics .. ??
i read about the crf factor in depression ,, cortisol levels and all .. hyper hypothalmic pituitary ..
can you explain this to me better , and what roll anti-depressants play . ?? it seems that they say that snri , helps with this ,?? i don't know , it was all pretty complicated ..
does norepinephrine have any thing at all to do with the amount of epinephrine in our systems ??
could there be a screw up some where where too much of this gets produced??? or could it possible be that a person can be super sensitive to it ????
are parkinsons drugs effective in raising the dopamine in the nucleus accumbens ?? do parkinsons drugs raise dopa throughout the brain or just in certain areas ???
sorry if you told me already , but did you try any of these ???
why does maoi's taken on long term have a likelyhood of causing high blood pressure ??? or was that tca's ??? sorry can't remember..i know i read somewhere that taking maoi's and tca's long term can cause problems .. ???
do you think that having a fast metabolisim and being very sensitive to stims have anything to do with the anhedonia ?? or how the nuerotransmiters work ??
what do you think ??
sorry for all the numerous questions .. i promise next time i will keep it down to only 4 questions !!! thanks for your time .. laura
Posted by not exactly on February 8, 2003, at 18:36:55
In reply to Re: hey Bob i got a question???? » not exactly, posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 16:44:16
Well, the desipramine is finally starting to kick in. Only trouble is, it seems more like an ANTI-antidepressant. I've been feeling irritable and annoyed, and the WHY BOTHER syndrome is in full gear. I had planned to go to a party tonite, but now the thought of showering, getting dressed, and driving to it seem like far too much trouble. And what could I possibly enjoy at the party anyway? I don't want to be with people, or eat, or drink, or hear music. I just want to crawl in a hole somewhere. But I don't even feel like resting or sleeping. I don't know WHAT I want, and if I knew, it wouldn't be worth the effort.
I barely had the energy/motivation to send this post out. But I thought there was a chance ("hoping" is too "up" a word for now) that somebody might have an idea why I feel this way and what I could do about it. Any feedback would be appreciated, although I can't promise I'll be motivated to respond.
thanks,
bummed-out Bob
Posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 19:22:25
In reply to BUMMED OUT BIG TIME, posted by not exactly on February 8, 2003, at 18:36:55
hey , i am so sorry , it sucks .. i usually sit and read books , so this computer has been a distraction and i also hope i will find an answer ..hope is everything ,, but i have been in that place where hope is even illusive . so i sleep .. but that gets really depressing .. i do not know what to say .. except that i think you are extremely intellegent and articulate and i admire your tenacity .. did you know a trait of having high NE is vigilance ... lol !! i am sorry ... i will talk with you soon , laura
Posted by fachad on February 8, 2003, at 19:37:40
In reply to Re: dysphoric hypomania? » fachad, posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 6:24:25
Luara777,
I'm glad you did not take offence at my suggestion.
> My theory is that my brain or body converts all my dopamine very quickly into norepinephrine .. this is very simplistic and i need to look into it ..
My original theory from the cocaine experience was that my MAOI was just "overactive". I thought it broke down catecholamines too fast.
I cooked that one up based on my experience of coke wearing off so much faster for me than anyone else, and the feeling that the coke induced good mood was "melting" or "dissolving" right before my inner eyes.
In retrospect that seems really simplistic, but it did help me get a handle on my experiences. And that is real the purpose of theories - to make sense of experiences.
>i enjoy your posts by the way , and i see that you like philosophy , i do too .. can you tell me about the philosophy that you mentioned in previous posts ???
Yes, I have been thinking philosophically as long as I can remember. When I discovered philosophy as a formal discipline in high school, I was hooked. I completed a B.S in philosophy, with full intent of going to graduate school, but alas, the need to be gainfully employed got in the way.
Most of the posts I have done that have waxed philosophical have been on Psycho-Babble Faith, and have been a (civil, per Dr. Bob) statement of my rationalism and skepticism toward religious dogma and revealed religion.
There have been a few probes into epistemology in service of that end. Epistemology has always seemed to me to be the core concern in philosophy.
I've also done a few posts on philosophy of mind. I think that while there is much validity in the biochemical theory of mental disorders, it is very easy to take the implicit reductionism to extremes and end up with a view of human beings as merely so chemicals and cells.
I also think that the biochemical perspective can detract from the genuine need to focus on the behavioral, characteriological, and existential issues that factor into the human experience of emotional misery.
The need for medication in psychiatry could be compared to the need for cholesterol lowering drugs in primary care. Yes, there are some folks who have a strong genetic predisposition to high cholesterol, but there are others who just need to lay off the cheeseburgers. And the existence of a drug to lower cholesterol removes the motivation for some to observe a healthy diet. I think you can see where that analogy is going.
In addition to biological vs. behavioral etiologies of mental/emotional distress, I think there are also characterological and existential considerations. I think that biological treatments can go so far and no further; behavioral techniques and good behavioral hygiene can go so far; and beyond that there is a certain amount of emotional suffering that is just part of the human condition...
Posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 20:58:57
In reply to Simplified Theories and Philosophical Musings » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 8, 2003, at 19:37:40
> Luara777,
>
> I'm glad you did not take offence at my suggestion.
>
> > My theory is that my brain or body converts all my dopamine very quickly into norepinephrine .. this is very simplistic and i need to look into it ..actually the above theory is Bobs ,,
>
> I also think that the biochemical perspective can detract from the genuine need to focus on the behavioral, characteriological, and existential issues that factor into the human experience of emotional misery.
But shouldn't the emotional misery be tempered with joy , fun , and just basic happiness once in awhile ??
i used to like to go trail hiking ,i love the trees nature ect ect ,, and i have done many things that i see others are enjoying and i do not see it .. it is like everything is DULL . i know that it is not me physchologically . i am very aware . i have been self examing and focusing for years , and as a result of that i am pretty healthy .. but still a work in progress just like everyone else .. but what is this Dull thing .. gotta be biological .. i remember going out in snowstorms and it being so enchanting . truly , now it is dull , i have no answers ...> In addition to biological vs. behavioral etiologies of mental/emotional distress, I think there are also characterological and existential considerations. I think that biological treatments can go so far and no further; behavioral techniques and good behavioral hygiene can go so far; and beyond that there is a certain amount of emotional suffering that is just part of the human condition...
hey i can get with that , but again i say i live a life where there is no temperance ,, everything feels like a push to do ..
I am no intellectual Giant in philosophy , i am just interested in it because i think alot.. about alot of things and i find this interests me ...but there has to be more .. i see people enjoying a smattering of things and i know i used to also , now it is dull , why is this ??be easy with me on the philosophy terms because i do not know them ,so explain some of these things to me ... i will try and find some of your posts in the religion section , thanks , laura
Posted by fachad on February 8, 2003, at 23:41:29
In reply to Re: Simplified Theories and Philosophical Musings » fachad, posted by LAURA777 on February 8, 2003, at 20:58:57
Laura777,
> actually the above theory is Bobs ,,
Oops, I missed that. For a layman, I think I'm fairly versed in neuro-anatomy and neurochemistry, but I got lost somewhere in that thread between you and Bob.
> But shouldn't the emotional misery be tempered with joy , fun , and just basic happiness once in awhile ??Well sure, it should, but there's the rub - reality is not obligated to follow our ideals of how things ought to be.
That does not mean we should stop trying to make things better, or give up on our ideals, just that we need to have a certain amount of stoicism about the results of our efforts.
> i used to like to go trail hiking ,i love the trees nature ect ect ,, and i have done many things that i see others are enjoying and i do not see it .. it is like everything is DULL . i know that it is not me physchologically . i am very aware . i have been self examing and focusing for years , and as a result of that i am pretty healthy .. but still a work in progress just like everyone else .. but what is this Dull thing .. gotta be biological .. i remember going out in snowstorms and it being so enchanting . truly , now it is dull , i have no answers ...
I would like to share a few snippets from literature with you...things I've found to be very expressive of this anhedonia. But we're already way off topic, and Dr. Bob is gonna redirect us soon to Psycho-Social-Babble,
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/
so if you're interested come over and look for the "anhedonia" thread.
> I am no intellectual Giant in philosophy , i am just interested in it because i think alot.. about alot of things and i find this interests me ...but there has to be more .. i see people enjoying a smattering of things and i know i used to also , now it is dull , why is this ??
No answers here, but I do think you'll like the snippets over in Social...
> be easy with me on the philosophy terms because i do not know them ,so explain some of these things to me ... i will try and find some of your posts in the religion section , thanks , lauraOops, sorry, I feel like a dork babbling on in jargon. It's just that philosophy, both in the general sense of wonder about why things are, and in the formal sense of the academic discipline, are really excing to me, and I do get carried away.
Posted by LAURA777 on February 9, 2003, at 8:26:31
In reply to Re: Simplified Theories and Philosophical Musings » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 8, 2003, at 23:41:29
hey fachad , here is a post that i stumbled across that is very much true , and that is why this problem of discomfort is so complicated ..
anyway here is the post i am refering to ...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020527/msgs/405.html
Posted by LAURA777 on February 9, 2003, at 9:22:00
In reply to BUMMED OUT BIG TIME, posted by not exactly on February 8, 2003, at 18:36:55
hey bob, i have thought alot about this , and from what i can see , is that some people are born with a deficet in both D2 receptor in the nucleus accumbens and a deficet in the endorphins . I believe this area has been looked into but very cautiously because of the addiction factor .. in fact there are meds that block like naltexone . opiate blocker ..
but this only addresses the issue of making the person stop the behaviour , not why they intiated the behavior in the first place ..
i also believe that it is an incompleteness in them that causes this behaviour .. there are many factors invovled and i will just give you a link to where fachad described these factors so very well .. here it is below
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020527/msgs/405.htmlWhat if a person takes care of the spiritual end , the phsycological end and even the behavioural end but is still is suffering ..
this is the place that i am at .. truly ...
Now i think it is very strange to me that when i ingest some form of opiate, this state in my being begins to change ... this is imperical proof to me that there is something amiss in this area of my biochemistry ..And even though they create drugs that stop addicts from feeling this , because addiction is a horrible state , they need to address what it is that started the whole process in the first place , What makes this complicated is all the factors in fachads post must be considered because they are all very important ... Some people it may be just a screw up in there physcological , hence thearpy is sucessful.. the person is free now .. some it may be a combo of behavioral issuse which in my opinion is directly tied to phsycological .. and the spriritual thing in conjuction with this as well..
Then there is the biological end , could this be the reason why so many fail at alcoholics anonymous or the narcotics anonymous ???i am not stating here that one should continue an addiction to any substance because it breeds a vicious cycle and exasberates the problem .. Sort of like hitting a broken leg with a hammer in hopes that it will heal ...
But this incompleteness that so many feel that lead them to these substances is very real.. and i guess it depends on wheather it's phsychological, or behavioral only ...is directly connected to wheather you become a sucess at being substance free and and content in your life ..
the word content is very operative here .. i am in a state of discontent .. even though i have taken care of all the factors mentioned in fachads post .. i am mentally healthy .. what i mean to say is that i was able to change dysfunctional patterns and perceptions ..
So now here i am stuck at the biological end ...i wonder if the d2 receptor has any link to endorphins ????
i keep going back to endorphins because one of thier properties is that they cause a sense of well being completeness , contentment .. and if you read the article i gave you about the experiment with the alcohol and non alcoholic mice you can see the connection , And wheather a person reaches this state of discontentment because of substance abuse or because they were born with it , or because of tramatic shock is really moot!!!! the point is ... is that it is a very real and profound issue that effects every area of my life .. your thoughts ???
thanks , laura
Posted by LAURA777 on February 9, 2003, at 9:25:16
In reply to Simplified Theories and Philosophical Musings » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 8, 2003, at 19:37:40
hey Fachad please read this post and i would love to here your thoughts ..
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030208/msgs/140275.html
i do appreciate you time and input , laura
Posted by fachad on February 9, 2003, at 17:38:31
In reply to Re: Fachad please read and give thoughts !! » fachad, posted by LAURA777 on February 9, 2003, at 9:25:16
I'm digesting that post, but as I'm thinking through the reply, I realize that it is somewhat off topic.
Dr. Bob has set up guidelines about only medication related stuff being posted here, and he would eventually redirect this thread over to social.
I admit I think it's a bit awkward, because we are talking about both medication and non-medication issues, but I can also see the reason for segregating the discussions.
So give me a bit of time to come up with something, and I'll reply over there...
> hey Fachad please read this post and i would love to here your thoughts ..
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030208/msgs/140275.html
>
> i do appreciate you time and input , laura
Posted by fachad on February 9, 2003, at 19:16:48
In reply to Re: Fachad please read and give thoughts !! » fachad, posted by LAURA777 on February 9, 2003, at 9:25:27
> hey Fachad please read this post and i would love to here your thoughts ..
I think you could fill several books with answers from different angles to these questions. But here is one preliminary thought - a way of seeing the question a different way.
>...i also believe that it is an incompleteness in them that causes this behavior ...What if a person takes care of the spiritual end , the physiological end and even the behavioral end but is still is suffering ..
I want to be careful here and state right from the beginning that I am only stating personal opinion, what works for me. I'm not implying that it's true for everyone, or judging anyone for interpreting things differently.
That being said, I think that part of "taking care of the spiritual end" includes finding a way to be at peace with things that are not as they should be, such as feelings of incompleteness and senseless suffering.
The need to understand and cope with those exact feelings are the driving factors behind spirituality.
If the problem (suffering, feelings of incompleteness, or whatever) is solvable by medication, or behavior, some known means, then it is just plain wrong to address it with spirituality. In that case you are evading reality and that is the real danger in a spiritual approach.
But on the other hand, I think that some kind of suffering, be it physical pain, or emotional pain, or emptiness, or boredom, or ennui, or existential dread or whatnot, is always going to be present to some extent, just a little ahead of whatever means our science has developed to relieve suffering.
So for me, taking care of the physical and behavioral components is an on-going lifelong process, and whatever suffering is left after I have done my best is the Prima Materia for the spiritual process.
Posted by fachad on February 9, 2003, at 19:22:45
In reply to Incompleteness and Residual Suffering » LAURA777, posted by fachad on February 9, 2003, at 19:16:48
The above post was supposed to go to Social. Oops.
I'll post a little more on that same line over there.
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