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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by dave40252 on June 5, 2002, at 15:05:25
Hi all, i am going to give this a try - is flax oil just as good as fish oil, and if any one has had any good experiances, how much do you take?
Thanks for any advice.
Posted by Anyuser on June 5, 2002, at 16:12:50
In reply to Omega-3 questions, posted by dave40252 on June 5, 2002, at 15:05:25
This is what Dr. Ivan Goldberg says:
"Increase the amount of Omega-3 fatty acids in your diet. There is highly suggestive evidence that increasing one's intake of EPA, one of the Omega-3 fatty acids, helps recovery from depression. This can be done most easily by taking a supplement that contains 600 mg. of EPA in each capsule. The total daily intake of EPA should be about 3,600 mg., and it should be divided into three or four doses each day. Capsules containing EPA can be purchased in any "health food" store. Make sure that the EPA content is 600 mg. per capsule."
Posted by johnj on June 5, 2002, at 17:20:15
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions, posted by Anyuser on June 5, 2002, at 16:12:50
I have only seen a max of 260 mg of EPA, have you ever seen a brand with 600 in 1 capsule?
Posted by Anyuser on June 5, 2002, at 17:37:22
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(how much?), posted by johnj on June 5, 2002, at 17:20:15
> I have only seen a max of 260 mg of EPA, have you ever seen a brand with 600 in 1 capsule?
Nope. 360 is the most I've seen.
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 18:01:44
In reply to Omega-3 questions, posted by dave40252 on June 5, 2002, at 15:05:25
Hi Dave,
If I were you I wouldn't get the omega3 from flax oil simply because the studies that suggest efficacy were done with fish oil. Omegabrite is probably the best formulation -- you can order it at http://www.omegabrite.com and also get more information there. How much you take is dependent upon what you are taking it for. I know the controlled study for bipolar disorder and omega3 used 9.6g/d. I would try something close to Dr. Goldberg's recommendation and take it from there. Omegabrite has a 7:1 ratio with 1125mg of EPA and 165mg of DHA.
Jon
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 19:11:04
In reply to Omega-3 questions, posted by dave40252 on June 5, 2002, at 15:05:25
You can guess by my name Omega 3 has done it for me...its my main drug for restoring cognition to the more natrual wide awareness I had pre-illness...
I find the best effect is to take two capsules before sleep..you wake up feeling more stable..wide aware and freshness that gets you right thru a heavy day...I can't get that from SSRI's without that feeling of being "buzzed" ..omega 3 just makes me feel..happy to be here..
I bought flax oil and found it had a definite effect deeper and more physical..with an immediate hit when taken on toast...but it wears of very quickly...where as omega 3 peaks at three hours and happy for twelve..
P.S some omega 3 brand make your guts so ill..they render you ill...I use a brand called "higher nature" in the UK.
P.P.S. I also found taking it awake rather than before sleep gave me Neuralgia (facial paralysis) and so did someone else who posted here....except he stated his was permanent...mind you we were taking high doses of three to five day...
also my bones are more brittle..but I don't know if this is just my age getting to me ..
Posted by johnj on June 5, 2002, at 21:51:42
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions » dave40252, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 19:11:04
HI,
I have just purchased some fish oil and it has 180 mg of EPS, and another called DHL(?). What dose are in the capsules you take? and how much do you take each day of EPS and DHL in mg? How long did it take to feel the effect? Are you on any other meds and what is your dx? Sorry for all the questions you just made me very curious. Thank you very much.
Johnj
I am trying to eat fish a couple of times a week, but I heard the canned tuna isn't very good for omega 3's.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 23:45:45
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(Omega Man), posted by johnj on June 5, 2002, at 21:51:42
glad to help...
>
What dose are in the capsules you take? and how much do you take each day of EPS and DHL in mg?I never got too sophisticated with the omega 3..by the time I tried my second brand "higher nature" which is salmon oil the stomach problems went totally..I was so glad...I know some really expensive pure stuff exists..mine is just standard 180 EPA 120 DHA recipe..
>How long did it take to feel the effect?
right away within 30 minutes I felt like I was getting inside myself..had more space..wider visual field..noise did not drive me so crazy...I ran to tell a friend and many people...then I read the research and realized what a breakthrough this was.
My Top TIP is to take it before you sleep..the effect on waking is profound....peripheral vision increases...and nerves get stronger ...This is two years now....my social overload has gone...I can get through meetings..get through..now I feel like I can run one!!
its still quite strange to get used to being this solid...I have to keep stopping and starting them and say "can this be real, can I feel this OK ?", but slowly have come out my shell and am now no longer on sick benefit (ten years) ...I am dealing with getting back to life..which is not easy..but its now possible..
>Are you on any other meds and what is your dx?
I have all sorts of meds from trying so many...and I use them for various things..but my main things I need to take are losec for guts, sleeping pills, and Omega 3. everything else..buspar, paxil, effexor, clopizone, merbentyl, and not legal drugs come in really handy when shades of other conditions or creative oppurtunities rear their head..
I suppose my DX now is just G.A.D. and S.A.D. but I've had shades of all sorts of other conditions run thru these..seven years ago he said I was "chronic Schizoid"
My GP can see me getting well so Dx has become less and less of an issue...
I tried eating fish for the omega 3 effect..tinned tuna is useless...some tinned salmons ..the german stuff has a slight omega 3 effect..but its harder on the guts than the capsules...have'nt tried fresh fish...I did the calculations as to how much real fish I would need
"no way man, I aint eating eight trouts !!"
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on June 6, 2002, at 4:05:55
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(Omega Man) » johnj, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 23:45:45
Omega-3 can be used for quite a few conditions now.Have a look at www.omega3.20megsfree.com for some psychiatric benefits.It has physical benefits too.
Posted by johnj on June 6, 2002, at 8:49:20
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(Omega Man) » johnj, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 23:45:45
So, you only take two capsules a day? I took one with each meal yesterday and did so happen to eat fish last night and I felt really sleepy around 9:00 pm. I am kind of groggy, but that could be my other meds too, I guess. I seemed to sleep ok, just sort of zoned out or tired today. thanks. johnj
Posted by johnj on June 6, 2002, at 9:02:11
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions » dave40252, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 18:01:44
Where did you get the info on the EPS mg? I can't find it on the website. Omegabrite is quite expensive. thanks
johnj
Posted by dave40252 on June 6, 2002, at 10:59:17
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(Omega Man), posted by Ed O`Flaherty on June 6, 2002, at 4:05:55
Thanks for all the info - i guess i will use fish oil rather than flax. It sure would be ironic if fish oil turns out to be the answer after all the different meds i have tried so far!
Posted by JonW on June 6, 2002, at 11:33:57
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(jon), posted by johnj on June 6, 2002, at 9:02:11
Posted by omega man on June 6, 2002, at 12:49:19
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(Omega Man) a few more, posted by johnj on June 6, 2002, at 8:49:20
I should say I have med hypersensitivity..I tend to need 25% of any given dose for that effect..and during the winter when I feel so low I can't get up..I was taking about one capsule every three hours..just to stay cognent....
here i'll look out some research...for relief from schizophrenia they say 10 capsules ..and I do find my busy brain just stops buzzing but the great thing about omega 3 is theres no typical medication feeling of being "buzzed" like AD's or zonked like anti-psychotics...just a feeling of "space" quite profound and hard to believe..
I just woke up and had one pre-sleep...my eyes have a lovely frshh felling and I just want to handle life...not hide...
Trials from Harvard on bipolar disorder
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p991211.html
General article
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/depression/48236
more trials
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/dhaomega.htm
http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/projects/omega3/dietand.htm
Posted by Randal on August 14, 2002, at 21:16:19
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(how much?), posted by johnj on June 5, 2002, at 17:20:15
Don't know if this was ever followed-up... Twinlab's Twin EPA has 600 mg EPA, 240 mg DHA (2.5:1 ratio), $27.95 suggested retail for 60 tablets. You can find it for about $20 several places online, which makes it a bit cheaper than Omegabrite for an equivalent amount of EPA. The EPA:DHA ratio is lower, but still higher than most anything else I'm aware of.
Just in case anyone is curious why I mention the EPA:DHA ratio, I've read here and elsewhere that it's been found clinically (but not published as far as I know) that a higher ratio is better, ideally at least 2:1, which is achieved by very few supplements (Omegabrite is 7:1). Someone out there must know this whole story??
The recent study that showed a benefit for recurrent unipolar depression (Nemets et al. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PSYCHIATRY 159 (3): 477-479 MAR 2002) used nearly pure EPA.
> I have only seen a max of 260 mg of EPA, have you ever seen a brand with 600 in 1 capsule?
Posted by shar on August 15, 2002, at 2:34:32
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(how much?) » johnj, posted by Randal on August 14, 2002, at 21:16:19
this is so weird. everything I read (except a rare article or two) said it was important to have more DHA than EPA. The brand I got is Carlson's (one of the one's recommended and used in a couple of studies I read) and is 500 DHA to 200 EPA.
So, go figure. I really didn't come across the studies that said it's better to have more EPA.
Shar
Posted by Randal on August 15, 2002, at 13:11:24
In reply to dha and epa ratios, posted by shar on August 15, 2002, at 2:34:32
Shar,
My impression is that DHA is supposed to be more important for pregnant/nursing mothers, although I have to confess my ignorance here.
Here's what I could find about the EPA:DHA ratio:
As I mentioned, the Nemet, et al. recurrent depression study used pure EPA (technically the ethyl ester). The Stoll, et al. bipolar study used a 2:1 ratio (Omega 3 fatty acids in bipolar disorder - A preliminary double-blind, placebo-controlled trial ARCHIVES OF GENERAL PSYCHIATRY 56 (5): 407-412 MAY 1999). As far as I know, these are the only controlled studies for depression/bipolar disorder.In his book, the Omega-3 connection, Stoll says:
p. 208 (page numbers for paperback edition)
"Current evidence is pointing toward EPA as the most mood-promoting agent in fish oil, although further research may show that DHA is important as well. However, there is anecdotal data suggesting that too much DHA relative to EPA may cause a worsening of mood. I therefore recommend using a supplement with as high an EPA content as possible. More systematic studies are required to verify these clinical observations. There are supplements available with EPA to DHA ratios of two-to-one all the way up to seven to one."p. 209 "With the emerging data on EPA, I have begun to use the EPA content alone to calculate dosage requirements"
p. 214 Table "Desireable characteristics of an omega-3 fatty acid supplement (fish oil)
-Highest ratio of EPA to DHA.
...Preliminary data suggests that EPA is the active mood agent of fish oil."
And then there were the emphatic posts here earlier (I don't remember who or when) insisting the the ratio had to be 2:1 and that Stoll's team found that lower ratios threw people into severe depression. I don't know whether this person got their information from the above passages from Stoll's book, or from another source.
Sorry so long-winded!!! Hope this helps.
Randal
> this is so weird. everything I read (except a rare article or two) said it was important to have more DHA than EPA. The brand I got is Carlson's (one of the one's recommended and used in a couple of studies I read) and is 500 DHA to 200 EPA.
>
> So, go figure. I really didn't come across the studies that said it's better to have more EPA.
>
> Shar
Posted by Phil on August 15, 2002, at 17:33:31
In reply to Re: dha and epa ratios » shar, posted by Randal on August 15, 2002, at 13:11:24
I've been taking OmegaBrite, which is supposed to be the best according to some on this board and my pdoc. It's got a 7:1 ratio. I've been taking 2500mg a day for about 3 weeks. Haven't really felt much difference except if I go into a restaurant, I'm drawn to the lobster tank.
Actually, the OB is good in 2 other ways. The capsules are 1/2 the size of the brand I had before and you don't taste fish when you burp.
Evidently a doctor spent a lot of time on this product so I'm gonna give it a few months.
Posted by Phil on August 15, 2002, at 17:35:40
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(how much?) » johnj, posted by Randal on August 14, 2002, at 21:16:19
Posted by Randal on August 15, 2002, at 19:41:59
In reply to Re: dha and epa ratios, posted by Phil on August 15, 2002, at 17:33:31
Hi Phil,
Good luck with the OmegaBrite! Actually I tried omega-3 half-heartedly for a few weeks several years ago. I'm on different medications now (lithium and Lamictal for bipolar--first time with no antidepressants in the mix), so I figured I'd give it a more serious try now. I decided to go for the Twinlab product partly because it's a little cheaper. I calculate 400 mg EPA in each Omegabrite based on their reported percent omega-3 and EPA:DHA ratio, which means you get about 50% more EPA per dollar in the "Twin EPA" product (600 mg EPA for about the same price).
Actually my main reason for not getting the Omegabrite is that they say "usually ships in 5-7 business days" which to me is too slow! It does sound like the superior product, though. If I feel an effect I may switch over and see if there is a difference. Guess I'll have to plan that more than a week in advance!
As an aside, I am slightly disturbed by the fact that Omegabrite is marketed by Stoll (and his wife), who did the bipolar study. Seems like a bit of a conflict of interest to me...I expect he may have trouble publishing in some journals in the future because of this. On the other hand, I can certainly see that if he feels there are no adequate products out there, and there is a real need to promote this stuff to help people, then more power to him. For appearances sake, though, I really think the company should be not-for-profit, donate all of their profits to mental health research, whatever. In my opinion.
Thanks,
Randal
> I've been taking OmegaBrite, which is supposed to be the best according to some on this board and my pdoc. It's got a 7:1 ratio. I've been taking 2500mg a day for about 3 weeks. Haven't really felt much difference except if I go into a restaurant, I'm drawn to the lobster tank.
> Actually, the OB is good in 2 other ways. The capsules are 1/2 the size of the brand I had before and you don't taste fish when you burp.
> Evidently a doctor spent a lot of time on this product so I'm gonna give it a few months.
Posted by shar on August 15, 2002, at 19:57:09
In reply to Re: dha and epa ratios » shar, posted by Randal on August 15, 2002, at 13:11:24
Posted by Randal on August 16, 2002, at 16:56:27
In reply to well, hell, mood worsening, you say....sssiiiggghh (nm) » Randal, posted by shar on August 15, 2002, at 19:57:09
Hi Shar,
I hope the "wrong" ratio didn't make things worse--that would really suck. If so, I'm very sorry to hear that. It's unclear to me what the whole story is with this ratio business. Anyone out there know?
Of course that is one of the big problems with using supplements as "medication", even if there is evidence that they might actually work. Who knows what the best dose is? How do we know if what we are buying actually contains what it claims to?? Thank god for prescription drug regulations and the FDA.
I noticed that the earlier post where I mentioned Stoll's book has since been "magically" linked to a list of recommended books. I guess someone must go through these posts and do such things--wow! Thanks to whoever does this!
I mention this because the person who recommended the book is Sulpicia. I remember that Sulpicia was the one who was so vehement about the 2:1 ratio. I found a post by Sulpicia from June 25th 200l:
"The real problem is that essential fatty acid metabolism is extremely complex.
To start with: people with bipolar disorder should consult Stoll's 1999 paper [sorry no citation, wrong computer tonigh] -- research has clearly demonstrated that bipolars must take EPA in dosages AT LEAST TWICE AS HIGH as the dose of DHA. They learned very early in the study that DHA alone or in ratios of less than 2:1 pitches bipolars into severe depression. And nobody stopped or lowered meds -- the study showed that the bipolars on supplements and meds had fewer incidences of destabilization."I'd be interested in hearing the source of this--this is certainly a stronger statement than anything from Stoll's book--does Sulpicia know more than this???
Is Sulpicia still reading the posts?
Randal
Posted by shar on August 17, 2002, at 0:43:58
In reply to Re: well, hell, mood worsening, you say....sssiiiggghh » shar, posted by Randal on August 16, 2002, at 16:56:27
Randal,
No, I haven't experienced worsening due to omega 3. However, I am the proud owner of a great big tub of "super DHA".....oh, the irony...And, then, there is the awful fact that Phil told me a long time ago his fish oil was better'n mine, and HE WAS RIGHT....now that really tears it!! I'll probly never hear the end of it!
8-)
Thanks for the info. I did go back, by the way, to the few bookmarks I had from when I did my research, but those sites were more general or for manufacturers of omega 3 supplements for when I ordered it, so no good info there.
Shar
> Hi Shar,
>
> I hope the "wrong" ratio didn't make things worse--that would really suck. If so, I'm very sorry to hear that. It's unclear to me what the whole story is with this ratio business. Anyone out there know?
>
> Of course that is one of the big problems with using supplements as "medication", even if there is evidence that they might actually work. Who knows what the best dose is? How do we know if what we are buying actually contains what it claims to?? Thank god for prescription drug regulations and the FDA.
>
> I noticed that the earlier post where I mentioned Stoll's book has since been "magically" linked to a list of recommended books. I guess someone must go through these posts and do such things--wow! Thanks to whoever does this!
>
> I mention this because the person who recommended the book is Sulpicia. I remember that Sulpicia was the one who was so vehement about the 2:1 ratio. I found a post by Sulpicia from June 25th 200l:
>
>
> "The real problem is that essential fatty acid metabolism is extremely complex.
> To start with: people with bipolar disorder should consult Stoll's 1999 paper [sorry no citation, wrong computer tonigh] -- research has clearly demonstrated that bipolars must take EPA in dosages AT LEAST TWICE AS HIGH as the dose of DHA. They learned very early in the study that DHA alone or in ratios of less than 2:1 pitches bipolars into severe depression. And nobody stopped or lowered meds -- the study showed that the bipolars on supplements and meds had fewer incidences of destabilization."
>
> I'd be interested in hearing the source of this--this is certainly a stronger statement than anything from Stoll's book--does Sulpicia know more than this???
>
> Is Sulpicia still reading the posts?
>
> Randal
>
Posted by henryO on August 17, 2002, at 4:08:48
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(how much?) » johnj, posted by Randal on August 14, 2002, at 21:16:19
Posted by Randal on August 17, 2002, at 13:16:40
In reply to Re: Omega-3 questions(how much?), posted by henryO on August 17, 2002, at 4:08:48
HenryO,
Wow, what a fantastic article! Maybe the best I've seen on this topic--very comprehensive and scientifically sound but NOT dumbed down. Such information is not always easy to find!
Thanks!
Randy
> http://www.bipolarchild.com/newsletters/0501.html
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