Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 63214

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sustained effects loosmrbls

Posted by Elizabeth on May 18, 2001, at 20:26:42

In reply to Re: Nichole, I'm with you!!, posted by loosmrbls on May 18, 2001, at 8:11:12

> Indeed, opiate receptors may play a role -- and some people speculate that those who cut themselves do so to release endogenous endorphins and other chemicals that bind to opiate receptors and reduce pain.

Yes. Someone I know who is a "cutter" says that naltrexone has helped her tremendously with that problem. In contrast, people with uncomplicated depression often seem to find naltrexone either neutral or dysphoric.

> However, I have one question. Has anyone had good, LONG-TERM success with these drugs releiving depression and bringing one into "euthymia" and functionality?

I know someone who took Ultram daily for several months and did not increase the dose. My pdoc has used morphine and buprenorphine as ADs with no dosage increase required. I've been taking buprenorphine for 2 years (though not continuously) and for as long as about six months at a stretch. And get a load of this (this is an excerpt from a letter to the editor published in the American Journal of Psychiatry):

"This report describes three patients with chronic and refractory major depression who were treated with the -opiate agonists oxycodone or oxymorphone. All three patients experienced a sustained moderate to marked antidepressant effect from the opiates. The patients described a reduction in psychic pain and distress, much as they would describe the analgesic effects of opiates in treating nocioceptive pain.

"...None of the patients abused the opiates, developed tolerance, or started using illicit substances.

"We used oxycodone in three additional patients without histories of opiate abuse. In two of these three patients, oxycodone produced a similar sustained antidepressant effect. ... Opiates should be considered a reasonable option in carefully selected patients who are desperately ill with major depression that is refractory to standard therapies."

(Am J Psychiatry 156:2017, December 1999. Treatment Augmentation With Opiates in Severe and Refractory Major Depression. Andrew L. Stoll, MD, and Stephanie Rueter, BA.)

Stoll is a very well-respected researcher at HMS. (Yes, he's also the fish oil guy.)

> I can only see one road with these drugs: (1) Sedation and at least a mild impairment in daily functioning (2) Tolerance (if not addiction) (3) a large potential for overdose.

(1) I find them activating, not sedating. (2) As noted above, a lot of the case reports I've heard/read about suggest that tolerance doesn't always occur and may be the exception rather than the rule. (3) The overdose potential is the biggest problem, IMO. This is an advantage of buprenorphine: it is virtually impossible to kill yourself by ODing on it (because it has a ceiling effect).

> My experience has been that these drugs mask, not relieve, depression.

Can you explain what you feel the difference is? To me it's mostly a matter of time course.

-elizabeth

 

Re: 1 person's view.

Posted by Elizabeth on May 18, 2001, at 20:34:09

In reply to Re: 1 person's view. loosmrbls, posted by JahL on May 18, 2001, at 11:42:52

> We *know* that opioids are very habit-forming for most people

I don't think it's even most people -- only about 30% of people who try opioids find them pleasant.

> This board stands testament to the fact that not all people are alike in their responses to drugs.

*Oh yeah*. Most people assume that opioids are simply CNS depressants. In fact they have excitatory properties as well. For me, these are more pronounced: opioids are activating. The sedation is something that people generally adjust to; it isn't a problem in the long term.

The comparison to tricyclics is an apt one. In particular, they have similar typical side effect profiles. Tricyclics are more cardiotoxic, though, whereas opioids cause more respiratory depression. (Either can be lethal in overdose.)

> Coke gets you high? Makes me feel like shit.

I've never had any interest in it. It sounds like a horrible drug. A milder, longer-lasting, truly nonselective monoamine reuptake inhibitor might be a positive thing, though, if such a drug were available.

-elizabeth

 

Re: 1 person's view.-elizabeith

Posted by Kristi on May 19, 2001, at 3:35:35

In reply to Re: 1 person's view., posted by Elizabeth on May 18, 2001, at 20:34:09

I think I have the wrong post but the right thread. anyway.... do you know what dosage of ultram a doc may put a mildly depressed person on?


> > We *know* that opioids are very habit-forming for most people
>
> I don't think it's even most people -- only about 30% of people who try opioids find them pleasant.
>
> > This board stands testament to the fact that not all people are alike in their responses to drugs.
>
> *Oh yeah*. Most people assume that opioids are simply CNS depressants. In fact they have excitatory properties as well. For me, these are more pronounced: opioids are activating. The sedation is something that people generally adjust to; it isn't a problem in the long term.
>
> The comparison to tricyclics is an apt one. In particular, they have similar typical side effect profiles. Tricyclics are more cardiotoxic, though, whereas opioids cause more respiratory depression. (Either can be lethal in overdose.)
>
> > Coke gets you high? Makes me feel like shit.
>
> I've never had any interest in it. It sounds like a horrible drug. A milder, longer-lasting, truly nonselective monoamine reuptake inhibitor might be a positive thing, though, if such a drug were available.
>
> -elizabeth

 

Ultram dose Kristi

Posted by Elizabeth on May 19, 2001, at 14:28:29

In reply to Re: 1 person's view.-elizabeith, posted by Kristi on May 19, 2001, at 3:35:35

> I think I have the wrong post but the right thread. anyway.... do you know what dosage of ultram a doc may put a mildly depressed person on?

I don't know how much you would need for mild depression (and I'd think that regular ADs would be more suited to mild depression, in any case), but the dose is almost always restricted to at most 400 mg/day. This usually means 50-100 mg every 4-6 hours.

-e

 

Re: Ultram dose Elizabeth

Posted by Kristi on May 19, 2001, at 14:50:22

In reply to Ultram dose Kristi, posted by Elizabeth on May 19, 2001, at 14:28:29

Thanks. AD's just mess me up so bad. I seem to only get the side effects that happen to take away things I enjoy..... ie... sleep, sex, energy, etc.

> > I think I have the wrong post but the right thread. anyway.... do you know what dosage of ultram a doc may put a mildly depressed person on?
>
> I don't know how much you would need for mild depression (and I'd think that regular ADs would be more suited to mild depression, in any case), but the dose is almost always restricted to at most 400 mg/day. This usually means 50-100 mg every 4-6 hours.
>
> -e

 

Re: Ultram dose

Posted by loosmrbls on May 21, 2001, at 8:42:01

In reply to Re: Ultram dose Elizabeth, posted by Kristi on May 19, 2001, at 14:50:22

I appreciate that we can discuss this topic without it getting nasty.

I admit that most of my opinion about opiate drugs and depression comes from personal experience and is therefore limited.

One thing I want to describe is what I mean by "relieve" and "mask."

By "relieve" I did kind of mean cure, because antidepressant drugs are/were designed to correct chemical imbalances in the brain (monoamines -- dopamine/serotonin/norepinephrine) that are believed to play a primary role in the symptoms (if not cause) of depression. That would be a cure. Many people eventually come off of AD's without a recurrence of symptoms and never have another problem (I have a friend like that who took Zoloft). But obviously he does not represent the users of this forum.

By "mask" I mean induce a sense of euphoria -- much like alcohol does -- that does not address the problem but hides it. Just like opiates do not "cure" the cause of pain (like a broken bone) but "mask" the pain.

So in that sense, AD's "cure" depression (in theory) by working on the primary cause, while opiates "mask" it by relieving the pain.

Now, the arguement is can opiates "cure" depression -- can dysregulation in opiate receptors cause depression?

I admit it is entirely possible, if only in a small percentage of those depressed. I, like many people here, have suffered from a mood disorder for years (3), have been on multiple antidepressants with no success (often worsening), multiple mood stabilizers, and nothing has worked thus far.

I have cut myself only once in my life during a very bad depressive episode, have never felt the need to since. Someone mentioned naltrexone helping them -- I find that fascinating because naltrexone actually blocks opiate receptors, in effect "shutting down" the opiate pathways. This would actually suggest opiate excess.

And I know there are multiple subtypes of opiate receptors (at least four) and people respond differently to these drugs. My wife, for example, often gets nauseous and vomits at even a small dose.

While I have taken 120-180mg of codeine and noticed only a mildly calming effect.

OK, sorry for the long post. After three years of dealing with depression, I am coming to believe that "depression" is like a "fever", a common symptom (or syndrome) that can occur from any dysfunction of a chemical pathway within the brain -- and certainly opiate pathways can be one of them.

Thanks for the article citations.

 

Re: Sal, where are you coming from? SalArmy4me

Posted by dougb on May 21, 2001, at 10:12:06

In reply to Sandhi, Loos, Rog, JahL.. I'm with you too JahL, posted by SalArmy4me on May 17, 2001, at 1:03:59

> With all the pharmacological alternatives out there for Depression, why must one take Opiates (which are not proven effective by scientific double-blind, placebo-controlled worldwide trials)?

Sal:
What is your bias? What is your agenda?

Everytime i was put one of 'all the pharm alternatives' my life would be turned upside down yet again for weeks if not months, frequently to the point of desperation.

I do not know how _your_ body chemistry/illness works, maybe for you switching meds is like changing clothes.

Tempus Fugit. If something works for someone who is ill, why fool around with anything else.

Most of us had a life before depression and am sure that all of us just want to get back to that life and not spend the rest of our existence in some obscenely expensive exsperimental treadmill where we eventually try 'all of those alternatives'

How safe do you think it is to be introducing substance after substance into your system?

These drugs have not been tested or approved for long term use by themselves let alone in the psycho-brew du jour.

db

 

Re: Sal, where are you coming from?

Posted by gilbert on May 21, 2001, at 19:01:56

In reply to Re: Sal, where are you coming from? SalArmy4me, posted by dougb on May 21, 2001, at 10:12:06

It has been my experience as a recovering addict and as someone who suffers from panic disorder that my search for the perfect AD or benzo has been much like my search for the perfect high used to be. I am never really satisfied with the effects of being stoned and out of it but don't really want to cope with reality 24/7. The huge difference for me has been whether drinking or using street drugs did bring relief from panic and depression but not without phenomenom of craving kicking in where I wanted more all the time. Now maybe non addicts would use let's say heroin medicinally. I believe that there may be that small percentage of people out there who could. But for most the phenonenom of craving kicks in and you need more an more of the drug until finally you are willing to sell your mom for it. I have never had this craving on antidepressants or even benzos for that matter. I never want to pop an extra prozac or xanax and travel uptown to chase skirt. Now the other side of the coin is at best these meds seem to make life tolerable. The benzos make you overly laid back and life is somewhat dulled. The antidepressants make you a robot and steal your libido. So whether or not you ingest illegal or legal subtsances they all come with a price. Even though I have been sober for 15 years and have only ingested drugs that are prescribed and approved by the almighty sanctifying easily bought F.D.A. I have felt some side effects that I never had to feel on street drugs. I still feel I am better off being a guinea pig with legal substances where quantities and quality is somewhat controlled. But it seems to me from reading this board and from my own experience we are all scurrying from one drug to another in hopes of finding something that will give us that glimpse of happiness that may not actually exist. This may be as good as it gets.

Gil

 

relieve vs. mask loosmrbls

Posted by Elizabeth on May 21, 2001, at 20:21:18

In reply to Re: Ultram dose, posted by loosmrbls on May 21, 2001, at 8:42:01

> One thing I want to describe is what I mean by "relieve" and "mask."
>
> By "relieve" I did kind of mean cure, because antidepressant drugs are/were designed to correct chemical imbalances in the brain (monoamines -- dopamine/serotonin/norepinephrine) that are believed to play a primary role in the symptoms (if not cause) of depression.

The belief you mention resulted from the fact that monoaminergic drugs (tricyclics and MAOIs) are antidepressants. The AD effects of tricyclics and MAOIs were discovered by accident; these drugs certainly weren't designed to treat depression. Their pharmacological actions were discovered later; this resulted in a search for other drugs with similar or related pharmacological actions. The newer ADs were selected for study as potential ADs based on their pharmacological effects, which were similar to those of known antidepressants.

> That would be a cure. Many people eventually come off of AD's without a recurrence of symptoms and never have another problem (I have a friend like that who took Zoloft). But obviously he does not represent the users of this forum.

I've known some people like that. In general they had a single episode of mild or moderate depression.

> By "mask" I mean induce a sense of euphoria -- much like alcohol does -- that does not address the problem but hides it. Just like opiates do not "cure" the cause of pain (like a broken bone) but "mask" the pain.

I see. I don't think this is applicable, in my case anyway. I don't feel euphoric or intoxicated on opioids at any dose I have taken. (I don't take large amounts by any standard.) It is true that some people try to "mask" depression with sedatives such as alcohol or benzodiazepines

> So in that sense, AD's "cure" depression (in theory) by working on the primary cause, while opiates "mask" it by relieving the pain.

Monoaminergic ADs relieve depression for as long as you're taking them. About 50% of people who experience a major depressive episode will not suffer any recurrences, so the fact that some people do not relapse after going off ADs doesn't mean that they were truly "cured" by the ADs (since they might not have relapsed anyway).

> I, like many people here, have suffered from a mood disorder for years (3), have been on multiple antidepressants with no success (often worsening), multiple mood stabilizers, and nothing has worked thus far.

I think that as long as we keep looking for new ADs that are similar to the ones we already have, we will never find one that is truly novel and that will work for those who have found no relief elsewhere.

> I have cut myself only once in my life during a very bad depressive episode, have never felt the need to since.

Out of curiosity -- did you experience relief the one time you did cut yourself? Can you say what led you to do it?

> Someone mentioned naltrexone helping them -- I find that fascinating because naltrexone actually blocks opiate receptors, in effect "shutting down" the opiate pathways. This would actually suggest opiate excess.

It could be that when they take naltrexone, these people no longer experience relief when they cut, so they stop doing it. Another possibility is that naltrexone prevents dissociation, which may be associated with or lead to cutting. I would be curious to hear from anyone who has used naltrexone as a treatment for self-injurious behaviour and might be able to shed some light on how it works.

> And I know there are multiple subtypes of opiate receptors (at least four) and people respond differently to these drugs.

There are three subtypes -- mu, kappa, and delta. ("Sigma" receptors were at one point thought to be opioid receptors; they turned out to be something else.)

> OK, sorry for the long post. After three years of dealing with depression, I am coming to believe that "depression" is like a "fever", a common symptom (or syndrome) that can occur from any dysfunction of a chemical pathway within the brain -- and certainly opiate pathways can be one of them.

I wouldn't go that far, but I'm sure there are multiple possible causes.

-elizabeth

 

Re: Naltrexone Elizabeth

Posted by shelliR on May 21, 2001, at 22:09:12

In reply to relieve vs. mask loosmrbls, posted by Elizabeth on May 21, 2001, at 20:21:18


>
> > Someone mentioned naltrexone helping them -- I find that fascinating because naltrexone actually blocks opiate receptors, in effect "shutting down" the opiate pathways. This would actually suggest opiate excess.
>
> It could be that when they take naltrexone, these people no longer experience relief when they cut, so they stop doing it. Another possibility is that naltrexone prevents dissociation, which may be associated with or lead to cutting. I would be curious to hear from anyone who has used naltrexone as a treatment for self-injurious behaviour and might be able to shed some light on how it works.

Elizabeth, I think your first thought was the correct one, based on the view of my friend's therapist who is an expert on dissociation and drug abuse. He gave her naltrexone because cutting actually can create a high. Naltrexone was given to her in the same way as to any drug abuser--to stop the high. Only she liked the feeling of cutting, therefore would not take the pill so I don't know what the result would really have been. She cut often, but not at all deep.

My therapist gave me naltrexone to supplement my nardil--she thought it might be successful because it had some of the properties of opiates. Well, for me it had all the bad properties. I felt drugged--in the same way as if I had taken too much hydrocodone, slightly nauseated, and very depressed. Only one of my forty-five or so trials. And a short one!

Shelli

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this? gilbert

Posted by dougb on May 22, 2001, at 13:43:26

In reply to Re: Sal, where are you coming from?, posted by gilbert on May 21, 2001, at 19:01:56

> Now the other side of the coin is at best these meds seem to make life tolerable.
--- Tolerable seems like a depressing destination, but i think that many on ads are not even to this low target, thus major depressions inexcusable mortality rate.

> I still feel I am better off being a guinea pig with legal substances where quantities and quality is somewhat controlled.
--- Of course with some of these substances, that may be like saying: I get my toxic preparations sans impurities

> But it seems to me from reading this board and from my own experience we are all scurrying from one drug to another in hopes of finding something that will give us that glimpse of happiness that may not actually exist. This may be as good as it gets.
--- Can not agree here, everyone here pays a very high price, in dollars, wasted productivity, lost moments with family and friends.

This price is being paid month in month out, and we are paying for only one thing: Relief from illness.

We are not getting what we paid for, else we would not be here.

As we do not get what we pay for, we should not be charged for what we are not receiving.

Furthermore, as the pharmaceutical and medical communities are making such excessive profits elseware, there should be an adjustment for failure to perform.

I have not seen the figures but multiply a few million sufferers by $200-600 per month for a few pennies worth of chemicals, now mix in a visit to your pdoc every X.

Can you spell @#@$*!! < -- add your own expeletive (exploitedtive) here.


Now, we are expected to believe that 'maybe it just doesn't get any better'?


db

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this?

Posted by gilbert on May 22, 2001, at 15:45:37

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this? gilbert, posted by dougb on May 22, 2001, at 13:43:26

Db,


I agree and I just left my pdoc's this morning we are basically out of options as far as meds to try. We have definitely put mental health issues at the bottom of the priority list as far as research and new effective tolerable drugs seem ions away. Look at the cardiac side of the medical business they have come up with wonderfull drugs for hypertension and cholesterol that have very few side effects and seem to get the job done. Mentally ill people are not only more expendable according to society and the medical field but their suffering and conditions seem to take on a last priority status. So touchee I agree with your outlook my cynicism grows with each visit to the pdocs. The amazing thing from reading these boards is so many of us myself included keep hoping and trying different meds with childlike trust in the established medical profession only to be let down once more by some half effective product with side effects worse than the symptomolgy itself.

thanks,

Gil

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this?

Posted by stjames on May 22, 2001, at 17:47:21

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this? gilbert, posted by dougb on May 22, 2001, at 13:43:26

> > But it seems to me from reading this board and from my own experience we are all scurrying from one drug to another in hopes of finding something that will give us that glimpse of happiness that may not actually exist. This may be as good as it gets.

james here....

Nope, I have been 100 % for 18 yrs on AD's.

James

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this?

Posted by JahL on May 22, 2001, at 19:52:09

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this? gilbert, posted by dougb on May 22, 2001, at 13:43:26


> > But it seems to me from reading this board and from my own experience we are all scurrying from one drug to another in hopes of finding something that will give us that glimpse of happiness that may not actually exist. This may be as good as it gets.

> Now, we are expected to believe that 'maybe it just doesn't get any better'?

Brief AD-induced euthymia taught me 'happiness' (ie feeling normal/alive/human, whatever) *does* exist &, given an excellent pdoc who's prepared to push the envelope, plus a good dose of fortune, is theoretically attainable. Believe me, it's worth going thru' all this sh*t to escape a living death & rejoin the human race.

Doug, you're so right about the price we all pay, but you omitted to mention that a significant few pay the highest price...

J.
(you listen to that Hicks stuff?)

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this?

Posted by gilbert on May 22, 2001, at 23:48:33

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this?, posted by JahL on May 22, 2001, at 19:52:09

Look I will be the first to admit that modern science has benefited many in the area of depression and other mental health issues however st james you say you have been 100% for 18 years on AD's.......Am I to assume you have been on the same med for 18 years never having to go through the anguish and withdrawal process of med hopping and that you have never suffered in between meds that some how magically you were given the right pill 18 years ago and poof you have been 100% since. I know very few healthy people off meds who can make that claim let alone someone suffering from mental illness. I am functional and I am somewhat happy but I do believe our expecations of the drugs are way too high. ......and maybe being funtional and a usefull member of society is as good as it gets maybe nirvana is not acheivable through pysch meds...............thanks for the spirited debate......Gil

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this?

Posted by Cam W. on May 23, 2001, at 2:44:09

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this?, posted by gilbert on May 22, 2001, at 23:48:33

I find it funny (and ironic) that people expect a pill to make them "normal". Perhaps the psychiatric community isn't explaining what they do, in an understandable manner. Antidepressants (and all medications) are only bandages. They do not "cure" anything. Antidepressants help one function better in society, but the amount they are able to help one function depends on how much work one is willing to do to "get better". One can't take a pill and "fix" yourself. The only way to do that is to change your aberrant thinking and dysfunctional coping mechanisms. It has been my experience that few people are actually willing to go through the pain of changing themselves and would rather blame their situation on medications (it's easier than working on one's problem).

My view - Cam

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this?-Cam W

Posted by Thrud on May 23, 2001, at 7:23:23

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this?, posted by Cam W. on May 23, 2001, at 2:44:09

Hi Cam,

I tried very hard at cognitive therapy and could easily use the disputational techniques to correct aberrant thoughts when they caused me discomfort. Unfortunately(?) I did not have many aberrant thoughts to dispute!!! When I asked myself why I was feeling depressed or anxious, the honest answer was nearly always, "no reason". I do not ruminate or entertain automatic trains of thought. However I do feel extremely ill within two weeks of ceasing medfication, regardless of the circumstances I am in. I could make minor changes in mood through cognitive therapy but the big baseline changes have only been made through medication. And this really sucks because of the side effects of medication
:-(
I fully agree with you that few people discipline themselves to make cognitive therapy work; it takes much effort and practise. However sometimes lay people and experts alike tend to think that cognitive therapy is superior because, through discipline, the patient has "earned" their relief from depression and that ADs tend to be cop-outs. The flip side to that argument is the implicit notion that patients have in a sense "earned" their depression as well.

Perhaps you will agree that you meet many people who clearly have distortions in their thinking and yet are not depressed and therefore not regarded as ill? Taking an effective AD while maintaining cognitive distortions might still take someone from being "ill" to being "well" in the eyes of society.
Anyway, I am not arguing with you. It's just that I've had my fair share of inquisitions from people trying to find the cognitive distortions at the root of my illness and coming to the conclusion that either I was either deceptive or simply would not open up to them.
Ah well. Cognitive therapy or ADs, the quest for normalcy and peace continues!

Thrud

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this?

Posted by Lorraine on May 23, 2001, at 9:18:20

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this?, posted by Cam W. on May 23, 2001, at 2:44:09

Cam: I have worked extensively on myself in therapy regular and cognitive. I actually consider myself cured--in the sense that the rabbit holes I used to go down have been cleaned out and I no longer go there. Still, 5 years later and maybe 15 meds later, I struggle with the physical symptoms of anxiety--shortness of breath, tightness in chest--and depression--energy, mood and cognitive function impairment. I read med text books (Stahl's--but hey I'm not in your league), research my condition on the web extensively and am proactive with my pdoc. I chart my reactions to drugs. I use Omega 3, a SAD light, exercise, treat myself well and still... My point is for some of us, it isn't a lack of effort, it's that "science" hasn't caught up with our condition and we are still living in the middle ages, sticking a probe in and charting the patient's reaction. I think we are a long way off from having a real understanding of what these various illnesses are, what causes them, and what the mechanisms of healing might be. But you do the best you can with the crude tools available to you :-)

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this? CAM

Posted by JAMMER on May 23, 2001, at 10:29:46

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this?, posted by Cam W. on May 23, 2001, at 2:44:09

> I find it funny (and ironic) that people expect a pill to make them "normal". Perhaps the psychiatric community isn't explaining what they do, in an understandable manner. Antidepressants (and all medications) are only bandages. They do not "cure" anything. Antidepressants help one function better in society, but the amount they are able to help one function depends on how much work one is willing to do to "get better". One can't take a pill and "fix" yourself. The only way to do that is to change your aberrant thinking and dysfunctional coping mechanisms. It has been my experience that few people are actually willing to go through the pain of changing themselves and would rather blame their situation on medications (it's easier than working on one's problem).
>
> My view - Cam

I think your right on, Cam. Bandaids over an exisiting wound may keep it clean and protected, but learning how to keep from getting the wound in the first place is the way to go. And yes, it's alot of work to solve issues that cause psycho symptoms, and meds help alleviate the "bad feelings", but doing the work to solve the root cause of bad feelings, is the real solution to returning to "normalcy". And it is work!!!
-James

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this?

Posted by kid47 on May 23, 2001, at 11:01:01

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this? gilbert, posted by dougb on May 22, 2001, at 13:43:26

Isnt it all brain chemistry? Wether we use meds, therapy, or both, isn't it the desired result to alter our brain chemistry so we feel "NORMAL". I have read some articles (sorry, no links. You'll just have to trusrt me.) that indicated some type of measurable changes in brain chemistry occured that where believed to be a result of talk therapy alone. I assume there are a variety of ways to alter brain chemistry through lifestyle & drugs. When we get to a point we can no longer function on a day to day basis I think psychmeds become the most viable solution to getting us back on our feet. If we are doing everything we possibly can to live a lifestyle conducive to good mental health & still have serious "mental" illness, then we have no choice but to look to meds to improve our condition.(Brain chemistry).

Big bussines is just that . Right or wrong, whether it's auto manufacturing or pharmacuticals the bottom line will always be king. I think the drug companies very badly want to find a "cure" for mental illness. The company that discovers that magic bullet will watch it's stock soar to new heights. Not the most altruistic attitude, but nevertheless, for us, it would get the job done! They are under constant pressure (as are most bussinesses) to compete in the market place. I can't fault the drug companies for trying to respond to a market that is demanding more effective medicines. It is in their best interest to do so. I think they are as interested in finding drugs that work as we are, albeit for different reasons.

There are obviously varied responses to various psychmeds. Some good, some bad, some inadequate. I think we must accept that for some, currently available meds are not getting the job done. Hopefully, this will continue to drive the market & motivate drug cos. to research & develop the next generation of meds & to do it quickly.

I think the real targets, at least of my frustration/hostlity, are the insurance cos.(& the legislates that are in bed with them) & the professional mental health.....naw, make it the entire medical community (except Dr. Bob of course). But that rant will have to wait. (& probably should be on PSB :p) )

Kid


> > Now the other side of the coin is at best these meds seem to make life tolerable.
> --- Tolerable seems like a depressing destination, but i think that many on ads are not even to this low target, thus major depressions inexcusable mortality rate.
>
> > I still feel I am better off being a guinea pig with legal substances where quantities and quality is somewhat controlled.
> --- Of course with some of these substances, that may be like saying: I get my toxic preparations sans impurities
>
> > But it seems to me from reading this board and from my own experience we are all scurrying from one drug to another in hopes of finding something that will give us that glimpse of happiness that may not actually exist. This may be as good as it gets.
> --- Can not agree here, everyone here pays a very high price, in dollars, wasted productivity, lost moments with family and friends.
>
> This price is being paid month in month out, and we are paying for only one thing: Relief from illness.
>
> We are not getting what we paid for, else we would not be here.
>
> As we do not get what we pay for, we should not be charged for what we are not receiving.
>
> Furthermore, as the pharmaceutical and medical communities are making such excessive profits elseware, there should be an adjustment for failure to perform.
>
> I have not seen the figures but multiply a few million sufferers by $200-600 per month for a few pennies worth of chemicals, now mix in a visit to your pdoc every X.
>
> Can you spell @#@$*!! < -- add your own expeletive (exploitedtive) here.
>
>
> Now, we are expected to believe that 'maybe it just doesn't get any better'?
>
>
> db

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this? kid47

Posted by Cam W. on May 23, 2001, at 11:18:28

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this?, posted by kid47 on May 23, 2001, at 11:01:01

Hey KiD - Just to add to your first paragraph. I believe that conscious thought (and unconscious though) is brain chemistry. The reason that psych meds are only bandages is that they only "fix" one or two neurotransmitters when it is a complex mix of neurotransmitters, and their supporting molecules, causing the abnormality in the first place. A nondepressed individual, depleted of serotonin (via a tryptophan-free diet) does not become depressed. While it is important to see how these neurotransmitters work individually, I don't believe we can figure out what depression really is until we stand back and look at the whole picture. The neurochemistry of depression is like an impressionist painting. Looking closely at the spots of paint doesn't tell us what the picture is, but it does tell us how the picture was made. To see the subject of the painting, we must stand at a distance from it and see how those paint spots translate into something we recognize.

Further blathering - Cam

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this? gilbert

Posted by dougb on May 23, 2001, at 11:18:33

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this?, posted by gilbert on May 22, 2001, at 15:45:37

Gil:

I was a tad concerned that you might have mistaken my ranting as being somehow directed at you, which of course it was not.

We need to spread the word, been there, done that, some were helped, the rest were @#$@#$@.


Regards

db

- Sign the petition, what no petition? organize one -

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this? stjames

Posted by dougb on May 23, 2001, at 11:27:59

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this?, posted by stjames on May 22, 2001, at 17:47:21

> Nope, I have been 100 % for 18 yrs on AD's.
>

James:

Get out the calculator, and share with us, if it is not to personal a question, a rough ballpark figure of what 100% has cost.

As an aside, why does someone who is 100% hang around this depressing place?

db

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this? JahL

Posted by dougb on May 23, 2001, at 11:41:06

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this?, posted by JahL on May 22, 2001, at 19:52:09

>
> Brief AD-induced euthymia taught me 'happiness' (ie feeling normal/alive/human, whatever) *does* exist
--- Ditto

> a living death & rejoin the human race.
--- You hit the nail on the head there

>
> Doug, you're so right about the price we all pay, but you omitted to mention that a significant few pay the highest price...
>
--- The ommision was only in the post but not in my thoughts. What really upsets me, is the willingness to let a depressive go through hell whilst a distant pdoc/doc goes through intellectually masturbatory excercise of combining chemicals in our deteriorating brain-pans, but bring up the word Euphoria and most run for cover.

Considering the ultimate price which some pay, ...........considering the pain and wasted lives.

How, HOW, can they not do _whatever_ it takes to make people better, Damn the profits, Damn the experiments

Well, you get the idea


db

PS have had very little time for fun stuff
> (you listen to that Hicks stuff?)

 

Re: It doesn't get any better than this?

Posted by stjames on May 23, 2001, at 12:42:49

In reply to Re: It doesn't get any better than this? stjames, posted by dougb on May 23, 2001, at 11:27:59

> > Nope, I have been 100 % for 18 yrs on AD's.
> >
>
> James:
>
> Get out the calculator, and share with us, if it is not to personal a question, a rough ballpark figure of what 100% has cost.

Any amout is worth it, but $20 X 12 months X 18 yrs = $4320. There are free programs for those who cannot afford meds.

>
> As an aside, why does someone who is 100% hang around this depressing place?

To help and share knowlage.


>
> db


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