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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JennyR on May 28, 2000, at 23:56:25
I'd like to know if others have shared this experience and how you've dealt with it.
Being in therapy seems to have forever changed how I feel about my mother. She was a very vicious, angry woman when I was a kid. SHe had a lot of grudges against a lot of people, including two sisters of hers that she had no contact with at all (therefore I never knew two sets of aunts, uncles and cousins). She didn't interact much with me and I was mostly left to my own devices. She was very quick to anger and hit me a lot. She sometimes hit me with an electrical cord that left welts. We didn't do much mother-daughter stuff if any. My father and brother were fanatical baseball fans, but I was mostly left out of that as my brother was 6 years older. My father didn't interact much with me - I don't think he knew what to do with a girl.
My therapist really emphasizes the past, so he is forever relating why I do certain things or feel certain ways to the past. As a result, I have a lot of very bad feelings toward my mother about how mean and unreasonable she was. How all those growing up years there was no closeness, and she had to be right at any cost. She could never admit she was wrong or apologize, just bully one way or another til she won out.
Now, in her old age, my mother is more bitter and vicious than ever. She doesn't have a kind word about anybody, gets in angry confrontations with people. Because of remembering the past so much in therapy, I now have very little tolerance for her and want little to do with her. But because she is old, I do maintain as much contact as I can, particularly because she is always saying she misses my kids, even though when she sees them, she barely interacts with them. she is always bitching and complaining and trying to lay guilt on me about not calling enough, not seeing her enough. The times I confront her on the mean and inappropriate things she says/does, she lies, denies and attacks viciously. It tears me up. I want to back away for my own self-preservation. Then I'm a bad daughter for backing off. She never apologizes or admits the nasty stuff she says and does. It's supposed to just evaporate by the next time we speak, only I can't operate that way.
I know I'm rambling, but what I need to figure out is this. If you realize in therapy that a parent was pretty shitty to you, and you are all shaken up about it, and can't shake those feelings, and they are still a lousy person and you're even more sensitive to it because you've dredged up the past so much, how do you deal with them in the present? Paricularly when they are old and there is not a prayer they will ever develop a shred of self awareness, and to them it's always everyone else who is the problem? How does all the awareness from therapy help when it just makes the present with that parent harder to bear? If you back off, you feel guilty. And if you keep subjecting yourself to their various forms of verbal and emotional abuse, you know you are harming yourself.
Thanks
Posted by Gordon on May 29, 2000, at 9:27:55
In reply to Mother relationship/therapy, posted by JennyR on May 28, 2000, at 23:56:25
Having had a similar background growing up and having discussed it ad nauseam with a couple of shrinks, the best way I found to handle this type of relationship is to grieve for the relationship that never was and never will be. The grieving process is very therapeutic and hopefully once you get through it you will be able to let the zingers pass by without getting to you. Remember that you can't recreate a relationship that never was.
Also, if your mother is aging, you might want to consider if she is clinically depressed or not. If she is, medication will make a very significant difference in her outlook; or it did in my case anyway. There's a little test at http://www.celexa.com that you can take for your mother. When I did that and she had many of the symptoms, I wrote a letter to her internist suggesting that he evaluate her for depression and told him what I saw, having a lot more contact with her than he did. He did put her on Celexa and it has done wonders for her attitude.
That and my learning to not respond have changed our relationship for the better by several magnitudes.
Posted by allisonm on May 29, 2000, at 13:39:50
In reply to Mother relationship/therapy, posted by JennyR on May 28, 2000, at 23:56:25
At times my psychiatrist and I get into issues about my father and the crap he's put me through. As my therapist makes observations that I haven't seen, I get even more angry. When I see my dad, I'm still angry, but he has no idea why. It is difficult to adjust, so I usually just clam up. The only thing I have found that helps is maintaining a good distance from him until I work these things out for myself.
Posted by Sara T on May 29, 2000, at 17:41:55
In reply to Mother relationship/therapy, posted by JennyR on May 28, 2000, at 23:56:25
> I'd like to know if others have shared this experience and how you've dealt with it.
> Being in therapy seems to have forever changed how I feel about my mother. She was a very vicious, angry woman when I was a kid. SHe had a lot of grudges against a lot of people, including two sisters of hers that she had no contact with at all (therefore I never knew two sets of aunts, uncles and cousins). She didn't interact much with me and I was mostly left to my own devices. She was very quick to anger and hit me a lot. She sometimes hit me with an electrical cord that left welts. We didn't do much mother-daughter stuff if any. My father and brother were fanatical baseball fans, but I was mostly left out of that as my brother was 6 years older. My father didn't interact much with me - I don't think he knew what to do with a girl.
> My therapist really emphasizes the past, so he is forever relating why I do certain things or feel certain ways to the past. As a result, I have a lot of very bad feelings toward my mother about how mean and unreasonable she was. How all those growing up years there was no closeness, and she had to be right at any cost. She could never admit she was wrong or apologize, just bully one way or another til she won out.
> Now, in her old age, my mother is more bitter and vicious than ever. She doesn't have a kind word about anybody, gets in angry confrontations with people. Because of remembering the past so much in therapy, I now have very little tolerance for her and want little to do with her. But because she is old, I do maintain as much contact as I can, particularly because she is always saying she misses my kids, even though when she sees them, she barely interacts with them. she is always bitching and complaining and trying to lay guilt on me about not calling enough, not seeing her enough. The times I confront her on the mean and inappropriate things she says/does, she lies, denies and attacks viciously. It tears me up. I want to back away for my own self-preservation. Then I'm a bad daughter for backing off. She never apologizes or admits the nasty stuff she says and does. It's supposed to just evaporate by the next time we speak, only I can't operate that way.
> I know I'm rambling, but what I need to figure out is this. If you realize in therapy that a parent was pretty shitty to you, and you are all shaken up about it, and can't shake those feelings, and they are still a lousy person and you're even more sensitive to it because you've dredged up the past so much, how do you deal with them in the present? Paricularly when they are old and there is not a prayer they will ever develop a shred of self awareness, and to them it's always everyone else who is the problem? How does all the awareness from therapy help when it just makes the present with that parent harder to bear? If you back off, you feel guilty. And if you keep subjecting yourself to their various forms of verbal and emotional abuse, you know you are harming yourself.
> ThanksI've had this kind of relationship with my father. It is difficult to keep up the role of "good daughter" when you'd rather not even see them. I have kept alot of physical distance between me and my parents. But I think the thing that helped me the most was realizing that I did not have to love my father just because he was my father. Actually, I don't feel much for him at times. And recognizing those feelings and accepting them helped me develop an emotional distance that enabled me to see him as he is, a person with alot of mental problems himself.
Sounds too, like you could draw some boundaries with your mother and how you expect her to treat you. You don't have to keep accepting her negativity and unkindness. You could tell her next time she is nasty that you don't want her to treat you that way and that while you won't abandon her, you will not let her be abusive to you or your children.
Sara T.
Posted by LD on May 30, 2000, at 10:16:37
In reply to Mother relationship/therapy, posted by JennyR on May 28, 2000, at 23:56:25
Jenny, I feel I can really relate to your post. Since I've started therapy, I've even had MORE anger towards my mother (which is hard to believe it could be more) for the neglect and emotional abuse she inflicted on me and my brother. At the moment I'm choosing to not talk to her while I try and deal with these things. Also knowing that she is the way she is and is not going to change helps me to know that I'm a better person and do not desearve her belittling and constant criticisms. I don't really have an answer for you, but I wanted to let you know that I relate and also feel so much anger I sometimes think I can't handle it. I also know the guilt you are talking about in relation to her being old etc. My mother is not that old yet, but I dread the day I will be held responsible for her well being and what will I do when that comes. I do not want to be responsible for her after the years of pain she has inflicted on me. I am just started out with a great therapist, so we'll see how things progress. But he has told me it is fine to feel these things, fine to not talk to her, fine if I want to tell her off (not that it will help anything) but I will be dealing with this in therapy for a very long time. But my mother also has alot of problems, and she has chosen not to deal with them and takes her anger out on me and my brother. I know I am definitely rambling, its hard to write coherently on this topic without writing a book. Just wanted to say I could relate. Good luck.
Posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 14:06:22
In reply to Re: Mother relationship/therapy, posted by allisonm on May 29, 2000, at 13:39:50
This is a tough one. I think clarifying some boundaries for yourself about what you will tolerate in terms of verbal abuse can help, and how you will respond. The hurt is still very raw, tho, and that makes the role change harder--ie, taking care of your mom. It sounds like you might be an only child? If not, where do your sibs stand in all this?
Just keep reminding yourself that your mom's ways of relating are very entrenched and she is very unlikely to change at this stage of the game, and that is beyond your control.
Be real with yourself about what you can do for her without feeling you are exposing yourself to more emotional harm. Avail yourself of outside resources as much as you can, so you are not the only one there to assist her as she ages.
(Hey, I even heard that in Japan, people hire actors to act in the role of sons and daughters with aging parents.)
It think there are gerontologists who specialize in these types of situations--care of older parents when the relationships are conflictual. I think there is even a book out somewhere. Don't know the title, tho.
I think the earlier suggestion of talking to your mom's doctor about medication is a possibility, too. Of course, if your mom is still competent to make her own decisions, she will have to want to take any appropriate meds.
Posted by Rockets on May 30, 2000, at 15:45:50
In reply to Re: Mother relationship/therapy, posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 14:06:22
Pretty tough when your caretakers turn on you isn't it. If it's any consolation, which its not, my mother dumped me off in an orphanage after throwing my Dad out (she finally divorced him) so she could copulate with a couple different new boyfriends. She never came back for me and I ended up having to go into boot camp to start my career as an E1 as there were really no other options when I graduated from high school and had to leave the orphanage. She became a big lawyer and has traveled the world and consulted Ronald Reagan on real estate matters etc.. We haven't talked in years. Oh the evil of it all!
My key came through working with a good Christian psychologist who was very experienced and certified in cognitive behavior therapy (cbt) as well. That and the wonderful people I met and befriended at various college/career single church groups. Most of them were empathetic and several were VERY supportive.
Today I am a certified network engineer (CNE,MCP) and have highest honors with a Bachelor's Degree in Information Systems, etc.. and have done more things in the past decade that many people do in a lifetime.. started a business, worked for big corporations, learned musical instruments and performed in front of lots of people.. etc..
Definitely get help from TRUSTWORTHY sources! Don't deal with it yourself. The pain never has completely left but it has been manageable. Peace :).
Posted by Danny on June 3, 2000, at 2:33:29
In reply to Mother relationship/therapy, posted by JennyR on May 28, 2000, at 23:56:25
I have cut friends and relatives out of my life, or at least minimized contact for much less severe abuse than you suffered. Put your mother on the back burner and if she keeps misbehaving, put her on the way back burner. You don't owe her a thing. If she really, REALLY, wants to see the kids, she can improve her behaviour. I have seen cantankerous oldsters make changes (unless senile), but they have to be disciplined. And it doesn't always work. Your mother, as you describe her, falls into the "mother from hell" category, which means she's unlikely to change. She's not going to "learn" good behaviour from your advice, only from you saying "If you act in this way, you will be left alone." You have the power. It's sad, in one way, but when you take charge, really take charge, your life becomes much cleaner, more joyful. You'll be happier, your kids will be happier and your mother will be left to deal with the responsibility of a failed relationship. And I'm not downplaying how hard it is. You've been in this pattern a long time, but you're aware that she's not changing so you're half way there. I know it's hard and I wish you the best of luck.
> I'd like to know if others have shared this experience and how you've dealt with it.
> Being in therapy seems to have forever changed how I feel about my mother. She was a very vicious, angry woman when I was a kid. SHe had a lot of grudges against a lot of people, including two sisters of hers that she had no contact with at all (therefore I never knew two sets of aunts, uncles and cousins). She didn't interact much with me and I was mostly left to my own devices. She was very quick to anger and hit me a lot. She sometimes hit me with an electrical cord that left welts. We didn't do much mother-daughter stuff if any. My father and brother were fanatical baseball fans, but I was mostly left out of that as my brother was 6 years older. My father didn't interact much with me - I don't think he knew what to do with a girl.
> My therapist really emphasizes the past, so he is forever relating why I do certain things or feel certain ways to the past. As a result, I have a lot of very bad feelings toward my mother about how mean and unreasonable she was. How all those growing up years there was no closeness, and she had to be right at any cost. She could never admit she was wrong or apologize, just bully one way or another til she won out.
> Now, in her old age, my mother is more bitter and vicious than ever. She doesn't have a kind word about anybody, gets in angry confrontations with people. Because of remembering the past so much in therapy, I now have very little tolerance for her and want little to do with her. But because she is old, I do maintain as much contact as I can, particularly because she is always saying she misses my kids, even though when she sees them, she barely interacts with them. she is always bitching and complaining and trying to lay guilt on me about not calling enough, not seeing her enough. The times I confront her on the mean and inappropriate things she says/does, she lies, denies and attacks viciously. It tears me up. I want to back away for my own self-preservation. Then I'm a bad daughter for backing off. She never apologizes or admits the nasty stuff she says and does. It's supposed to just evaporate by the next time we speak, only I can't operate that way.
> I know I'm rambling, but what I need to figure out is this. If you realize in therapy that a parent was pretty shitty to you, and you are all shaken up about it, and can't shake those feelings, and they are still a lousy person and you're even more sensitive to it because you've dredged up the past so much, how do you deal with them in the present? Paricularly when they are old and there is not a prayer they will ever develop a shred of self awareness, and to them it's always everyone else who is the problem? How does all the awareness from therapy help when it just makes the present with that parent harder to bear? If you back off, you feel guilty. And if you keep subjecting yourself to their various forms of verbal and emotional abuse, you know you are harming yourself.
> Thanks
Posted by JennyR on June 4, 2000, at 16:38:44
In reply to Re: Mother relationship/therapy, posted by Danny on June 3, 2000, at 2:33:29
Thank you all very much. What each one of you wrote was helpful.
I agree that I have a right to decide on what terms I'll accept with my mother, as I'm not a kid anymore. She doesn't tower over me anymore, and the fact is, I actually have the power. I will put whatever distance I need to for my own sanity. This will make her very angry, and she will assume this is some sort of punishment to her rather than self-preservation. But I do need to take care of myself. She will complain to anyone who will listen, I'm sure, that I'm a bad daughter by not calling/seeing her as much as she'd like, but I can't make that my problem. I had a very bad blow-up with her a week ago which prompted my post, and I am still reeling from her viciousness, which was truly undeserved. I think if you get burned a bunch of times and still keep sticking your hand in the fire, you can't blame the fire.
You are a great bunch of people. Thank you for your support. I am so used to my feelings and my perspective not mattering.
This is the end of the thread.
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