![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by bob on May 11, 2000, at 10:43:11
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Cynthia M on May 11, 2000, at 10:23:09
> I ended up cutting again yesterday, worse than i ever have. My pdoc suggested 50mg seroquel and I took 100mgs and it didn't help. There is sort of a ritualistic essence to cutting but mostly it is a way of dealing with things that i am otherwise unable to deal with. I can't go back in time and change all of the huge mistakes I have made that have lead to the ruin of my childrens lives, specifically my 15 year old daughter. I am not the kind of parent that I wanted to be (June Cleaver) and I feel helpless to fix things to the way they should be. ok i am not making any sense but I know that for a while I will have to hope It stays cool here so that I can contiue to wear long sleeves. Sorry for the babbble- Cyndy
Hey-- Babble means never having to say you're sorry.
If you don't mind me asking, what triggered the cutting for you yesterday?
be well,
bob
Posted by Cynthia M on May 11, 2000, at 20:34:46
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by bob on May 11, 2000, at 10:43:11
> Hey-- Babble means never having to say you're sorry.
>
> If you don't mind me asking, what triggered the cutting for you yesterday?
>
> be well,
> bob
bob- I think that it had something to do with sitting in ona counselling session with my daughter and having her tell my therapist basically what a horrible mother i am. Today I went in to mental health because I can't seem to get past this rage episode and while I was in the counselors office she went totalk to the pdoc and I overheard her co-workers in the hall talking about me , mentioning me by name and what I had done( cut) and saying that I was just trying to get attention. Talk about rage! I told the counsellor when she came back and left. The worst is my daughter heard, she was in the lobby and heard now I have to explain to her. What a pain! Help!
Posted by bob on May 11, 2000, at 23:26:06
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Cynthia M on May 11, 2000, at 20:34:46
> bob- I think that it had something to do with sitting in ona counselling session with my daughter and having her tell my therapist basically what a horrible mother i am.
Youch!! Geez, Cyndy, that was harsh. I'd call that a trigger. So you're supposed to sit there quietly and be supportive while you're being told you're just the opposite. I remember a discussion we had here in Babble a few months ago on cutting and someone (who didn't cut or do anything self-injurious) thought just talking about it might be triggering some of us, since some of the descriptions were so vivid. NOTHING on that discussion hit me like that comment of yours -- I can feel the "feedback loop". You've got to break it. You've got to focus on the facts of how you ARE a GOOD mother. On how teens are so ego-focused that they can have no awareness of the impact of their own words. Of just how manipulated you were in that situation.
> Today I went in to mental health because I can't seem to get past this rage episode and while I was in the counselors office she went totalk to the pdoc and I overheard her co-workers in the hall talking about me , mentioning me by name and what I had done( cut) and saying that I was just trying to get attention. Talk about rage! I told the counsellor when she came back and left.
Is this the same therapist as above? HELLO! How f*ck*ng irresponsible! Either (a) she doesn't know the first thing about self-injury or (b) she had better educate her colleagues, because they sure as hell don't know a damn thing about it.
Where are my steel-toed *ss-kicking boots when I need them? grrrrrrrrrrr...
Not only should you tell her just how unprofessional that was of her and her colleagues, maybe she should bear the responsibility of explaining this to your daughter (after she educates herself). Did she do NOTHING to defuse that bomb your daughter dropped on you? Does this therapist regularly let your daughter trash you like this while you're sitting there, or do you rarely sit in on her sessions? Maybe I'm getting a bit carried away with my speculations -- I'm assuming a lot from a little information -- it's just that it's so easy to see myself in your place and to see a pattern of discourse that would trigger me in a heartbeat.
> The worst is my daughter heard, she was in the lobby and heard now I have to explain to her. What a pain! Help!
Well, that is definitely ONE problem your therapist should bear some responsibility for coming up with a quick solution. It's so hard to say anything from this side with so little information on your relationship with your daughter.
Let me throw this out, and you can take it or tell me I'm nuts (which, of course, is true ;^).
Like I said earlier, there's nothing rational about my thinking when I get into one my rages against myself. A few months back, right before heading off to therapy I had stopped at home (coming from work) to check the dogs and the mail, and I'd received a letter which triggered me. That and a 30 minute subway ride, and I walked into that session completely, hysterically irrational and seething with self-hate. Somehow, my therapist was able to say, in words and in tone, the equivalent of a good, hard slap in the face. It didn't snap me out of it immediately -- I was too stunned and worried that she was furious with me (she wasn't angry at all, but quite concerned) -- but by the time I got home I had to call her to thank her and tell her she was right in what she said, no matter how hard I tried to deny it while I was with her.
The point of the story is that she interrupted my delusions of how evil I was, of how I deserved to be punished and hit me with some empirical facts in refutation to what had triggered me in the first place.
Now, maybe you breaching this topic alone with your daughter may not be the best thing to do. But maybe your therapist could earn the title and bring it out in the open with you and your daughter together. Coming from you alone, it could be interpreted as who knows what, but the worst would be an accusation of blame -- of your daughter thinking that it's entirely her fault that you cut yourself. Maybe I'm overly optimistic in how having your therapist mediate this revelation could be something positive for both (or all three) of you, but this is what I would hope for the two of you: (1) that your daughter would see just how much you care, even if you can't express it in a way she can see it right now, and that (2) your daughter could then get past the "my mother's an ogre" front to talk about what lies behind it.
Maybe THAT would be something within both of your reaches to fix, to change -- something truly within your control to set right -- instead of making you feeling you need to punish yourself for crimes you can't identify but you're sure you've committed all the same.
I hope this makes some sense to you, Cyndy. Your whole post just resonates too much in me to allow me to separate enough from my own perspective to maybe see yours more clearly -- but perhaps that might give me some incite as well. I hope it helps.
be well,
bob
Posted by quilter on May 12, 2000, at 0:02:38
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Cynthia M on May 11, 2000, at 20:34:46
>
Cynthia, I agree with what bob said but I also think that a letter to the director of the center regarding the totally unprofessional behavior of those employees is in order. Include the incident as you experienced it, and its effect on your daughter as well. Copies should also be sent to the pdoc supervising your counselor, and if this is a publically funded facility, to the state department of health ( or its equivalent). No one should be treated that way! Quilter
Posted by bob on May 12, 2000, at 0:41:48
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by quilter on May 12, 2000, at 0:02:38
You know, I have a number of friends who are clinicians in one role or another -- they all know I'm a research psychologist by training, so we're kind of kindred spirits. I try to be as "out" about my depression as I can, and most (not all) of the time I've been able to get away with it.
But the thing I hear from nearly all my clinically-oriented friends is just how nasty things can turn if you're a mental health professional AND a "patient". Maybe it's the same mentality that turns the attitudes of police officers (like my brother and a few of my friends back home) against the thought that "criminals" can ever be "reformed" -- instead, they're just defective people. Too much contact to see the big picture. Familiarity breeds contempt.
[well, except for the more tradional, dynamically-trained folk I know. they tend to think everyone has issues, and that those who are training them have the nuttiest sets of issues of all. maybe that's what years of engaging in psychotherapy from both sides of the couch does to the human mind eventually]
It's bad enough when you're talking about medications, because that bears with it a "faulty genetic stamp" for those working within the medical model and lacking compassion. But when you start getting into behaviors that "look weird" -- like compulsive behaviors -- the stigmas from the broader culture can start kicking in as well. When it comes to cutting and self-injury -- well, like I said a few posts back, it's such a taboo. I mean, you make make fun of the nose-scratcher or the hand-washer behind their backs, but cutting can carry such heavily-loaded connotations of something being seriously, dangerously wrong with that person. I know that we all can have a tremendous amount of empathy for one another because even though we suffer through different disorders, we all walk such similar paths. But I really have a had time imagining that anyone who is "normal" could ever grasp what self-injury is like for those who do it. Even my own therapist, for whom I have the greatest respect and who has spent a lot of time treating teens and young women who engage in self-injury, said to me that she didn't really believe that anyone could truly be a masochist.
I'm trying to, pardon the turn of phrase, disabuse her of that notion. Not that I think I'll succeed, and not because of any bias on her part -- she's just too damned optimistic about the ability of people to heal sooner or later!
Anyway, sometimes it takes a kick in the face to wake these other folk up.
Go buy yourself some good boots, Cynthia!
bob
Posted by Noa on May 12, 2000, at 8:20:13
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by bob on May 12, 2000, at 0:41:48
I agree that it was totally unprofessional of your counselor to talk about you in the hallway with other clinicians.
It wasn't a good thing to let your daughter trash you without defusing it, but even if this felt out of the skill area of the counselor, she could have at least ended the session, sent your daughter to the waiting room, and met with you for a while to debrief you and see how you experienced the trashing, and help you put it into perspective or at least to help you figure out how to make sense of your daughter's rage, and figure out what might be a constructive way to handle the rage--yours and your daughter's.
Maybe in addition to Quilter's suggestion of a letter you need something more immediate, like a consult with another mental health professional. If you are limited to this mental health center, ask for the clinical supervisor. Ask to have a session with him or her to discuss the effects of all of this on you and your daughter, with the idea that the clinical supervisor will then consult and instruct the counselor in better care.
Good luck.
Posted by Cynthia M on May 12, 2000, at 10:07:48
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Noa on May 12, 2000, at 8:20:13
Some clarification- the counsellor that i saw yesterday was a crisis nurse. i had never seen her before. She had gone to talk with the pdoc regarding a possible change in meds and that is when her co-workers began the discussion in the hall. The day before my daughter and i saw my therapist whom i have been seeing since August and felt that i had a good relationship with. We talked together with my daughter and when she ( my daughter) started becoming acusatory my therapist asked me to step out. i did (boy that was hard) then i came back in but felt as though i had lost the only person who was on my side ( my therapist) So Now , my daughter is going to see my therapist separately and i will not be going back to the crisis nurse because that "team" seems to be so horribly insensitive. i see my therapist this morning and will discuss where we go from here and how i felt about that session. My older son is seeing the pdoc this am for evaluation of BP andi guess i can pretend that i am just fine and not still raging ( which , sigh,i am ) Also, It gets better, We have been on the Medicaid program here and just got a notice yesterday that we willhave "SHARE OF COST" OF $339.00 a month. ( we have 9 kids and my husbands gross income last moth was 2300.00. So as of June 1st i won't be able to afford any counselling or doc appts. or meds. Did i also mention that we signed bankruptcy papers this week? And last week got a notice of an investigaton of welfare fraud. Totally unfounded and i know precipitated by a person whom i had an affair with and he was pissed because i chose my husband and he got stuck with his wife and now he is retaliating. i am at a loss. So now i am trying to figure out how to live without any support system here and no meds. Oh, one good thing is that we just found out yesterday that my daughter is hypo-thyroid. maybe that will accountfor some of her depression. i have four daughters, If this is typical i don't think i will be able to survive. i guess from know on when i cut i just don't tell anyone and deal with it by myself so no one thinks i am just "trying to get attention" i am at a loss. i trust no one that i was supposed to be trusting all this time. today's counselling session should be interesting since i am getting increasingly angry. what now?
Posted by Noa on May 12, 2000, at 16:03:23
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Cynthia M on May 12, 2000, at 10:07:48
Cynthia,
When I read your post, all I could think was, "there is only so much a person can handle!" I think I can now understand a bit of what leads you to hurt yourself. So much is overwhelming you all the time and all at once. You must feel you have no control, and what bob said about the attempt to create a sense of control makes sense.
Isn't there some kind of organization in your area that can help you problem solve some of the problems you are going through, aside from the mental health ones, maybe a religious organization (Catholic Charities, for example) or Family Services of America?
As for the hypothyroid thing, don't get bent out of shape about that one. It is treatable once it is diagnosed, and relatively inexpensively--just a small pill or two every day. And addressing that might help with the depression.
I can understand why you felt betrayed by your therapist, but you can talk to her about that. It is something you can work through, I think. I think it is important to convey to her how much you are feeling the need for care and support, how overwhelmed you are.
Here's to a smoother day tomorrow.
Posted by boBB on May 12, 2000, at 20:24:43
In reply to grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, posted by bob on May 11, 2000, at 23:26:06
bob's comments are typically compassionate, drawn from personal experience and (IMHO) in keeping with high professional standards.
He correctly stated that we don't know enough about Cindy's relationship with her daughter to know how well founded her daughters critical anaylsis might be. Teens can be harsh. I was.
Still, my experience with parenting is that many of us, or most, learn enough to be good parents about the time we are old enough to be grandparents, if at all.
I am no Christian, but there is something to be said for the method that says "forgive me, I have sinned," and accepts that someone else, more innocent and less deserving, suffered our punishment on our behalf.
All I can suggest is that maybe "cutters" could find a way to bear someone elses suffering if we feel the need to suffer. Put the need to good use.
Posted by Cynthia M on May 13, 2000, at 21:37:52
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Noa on May 12, 2000, at 16:03:23
Sorry this is graphic- Cutting again today- just watching the blood drip fro m my arm. I thought , maybe a cigarrette(I don't smoke) tried it and no relief. I am trying to do all that is excpected of me ( psychologically that is) walking and journalling. I am at a loss.I cannot go to the hospital because I don't want to be locked up again. It didn't help me anyway. I guess I will go shower and take my HS meds. Any advice would be welcome. I don't know how to break this rage- throwing things, yelling, swearing and , alas, cutting. I don't think that there is a place for me in all of the psycho - arena... please correct me if I am wrong- thanks - Cyndy
Posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 10:00:18
In reply to Dr. Bob? Any resources?, posted by Cynthia M on May 13, 2000, at 21:37:52
Cynthia,
While in the library on Saturday, I took a look at two books on self-mutilation. One is Cutting, and I think it is listed on Dr. Bob's Read list. The other is Bodily Harm. I don't know if it is on Dr. Bob's list. Bodily Harm was written by two women who run a program in Chicago called S.A.F.E. specifically for people who hurt themselves. If you can find a program like that , I think you might feel more hopeful. SAFE has an 800 number, maybe they also have a web site? Anyone know?
Posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 10:14:39
In reply to Dr. Bob? Any resources?, posted by Cynthia M on May 13, 2000, at 21:37:52
Cynthia, SAFE, which stands for Self Abuse Finally Ends, does have a website. As I mentioned in my previous post, which I don't know if it made it here, the founders of SAFE also wrote the book BodilyHarm, which I looked at a bit in the library on Saturday. Another book is Cutting (on Dr. Bob's Read page). Good luck.
Posted by bob on May 15, 2000, at 15:14:13
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob? Any resources?, posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 10:14:39
Google to the rescue!
http://www.selfinjury.com/
is S.A.F.E.'s website. Their 800 number is:
(800)-DON'T-CUT / -366-8288
(btw, I got that info at http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1253.html, which is worth the short read it is as well.)
be well,
bob
Posted by gg on May 15, 2000, at 15:46:13
In reply to Dr. Bob? Any resources?, posted by Cynthia M on May 13, 2000, at 21:37:52
Cynthia, I hope you'll be able to act as if the hopeless feelings are part of the depression because they are. There are so many resources available. did you call the SAFE program? there are several online support groups for self-injury too. don't give up. gg
Posted by Cynthia M on May 15, 2000, at 16:10:02
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob? Any resources?, posted by gg on May 15, 2000, at 15:46:13
Noa, bob, and gg and all of you , thank you so much for caring enough to reply. I am at a loss as to how and stop this. I will call the SAFE 800 number as soon as I disconnect here. I talked to my Psychologist this morning and she has no ideas or experience. Neither she nor her collegues had any experience or supportive material in dealing with this. I am very tired of the impulses.and my husband is at a loss. I can't seem to get past the blood. Even the thought of being permanently scarred doesn't deter me. Maybe I will find some additional help at the SAFE site. Thanks again heres hoping for a blood free tomorrow.-Cynthia
Posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 17:02:59
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob? Any resources?, posted by Cynthia M on May 15, 2000, at 16:10:02
Cynthia, I would give your therapist and pdoc the book info (as well as the website address). Both books are good resources for clinicians.
Hey, bob, Goaskalice is a great site. I have stumbled across it before.
Posted by bob on May 15, 2000, at 20:01:14
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob? Any resources?, posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 17:02:59
Hi Cyndy
I hope what Noa started here works for you. Like she said, it sounds like your therapist and colleagues need to get educated just as much as you (or probably any of us) do on this.
> Hey, bob, Goaskalice is a great site. I have stumbled across it before.Yep, great place to feed your head.
cheers,
bob
Posted by Mommy to an Angel! on May 15, 2000, at 23:17:39
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Noa on May 11, 2000, at 9:52:58
> May I ask about your "handle", Mommy to an Angel!?
>
> You mentioned loss in your post,well, and that made me wonder. You don't need to answer if this question is too intrusive.Hi! I guess my handle could imply a miscarrage, but I'm happy to say that's NOT my story! I have a very, wonderful 5 month old daughter. I'm still just so amazed that I created this wonderful, little being (with her daddy's help of course) that pretty much everything I do these days is "mommy-centered" I think the hormones are still raging in my system because although I'm embaressed to admit it, I'm still crying at commercals for Disney World... I'm sure you've seen the one where the dad is looking longingly at a small boy when his teenager calls to him and the announcer asks you what's the best way to make memories? And there's the McDonalds one where the girl is going off to college and the dad remembers when she is a toddler and then girl comes back and tells him that she forgot to say she loved him... Oh don't get me started. My shrink said I had a flight to sanity, but I think pregnancy hormones can cause the most sane people to crash and burn, LOL!
Posted by Chris A. on May 16, 2000, at 0:07:11
In reply to Rage and Cutting, posted by Cynthia M on May 9, 2000, at 11:31:06
Dear Cynthia,
Please hang in there. You've received excellent advice, so guess I'll just stick to praying for you and thinking about you. Loading doses of Depakote keep coming to mind. For some reason I suspect you've already tried it. Must admit that I didn't care much for it myself, even though I know how highly effective it is. Every tile in every bathroom in our house is committed to memory.
You are valuable. Please don't take it all out on yourself.Love,
Chris A.
Posted by Janet on May 16, 2000, at 9:47:22
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Chris A. on May 16, 2000, at 0:07:11
Seroquel was prescribed for me for compulsions and works great. Even though another pdoc. said he never heard of that. Sure "cured" me.
Posted by Cynthia M on May 16, 2000, at 10:53:28
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Chris A. on May 16, 2000, at 0:07:11
Thanks Chris- I wish I could take Depakote , but my liver just chews it up. I am hoping that my labs, done this am, will show a significant decrease in the carbatrol levels and maybe thyroid too. I can only hope. I await a book on the topic from Amazon.com and am seeing my psychologist everyother day. I still cut this morning but I wasn't angry yesterday so maybe something is working. If now I could just stop feeling the need to feel pain...... Thanks for the prayers, I need all the help I can get. -Cyndy
Posted by Cynthia M on May 16, 2000, at 10:55:35
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Janet on May 16, 2000, at 9:47:22
How much Seroquel? I am taking 300mg at night and then I take another 100 in the morning. So far I haven't noticed any difference. I would be interested to know what your dosages are.Thanks - cyndy
Posted by Janet on May 16, 2000, at 15:59:59
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting, posted by Cynthia M on May 16, 2000, at 10:55:35
> How much Seroquel? I am taking 300mg at night and then I take another 100 in the morning. So far I haven't noticed any difference. I would be interested to know what your dosages are.Thanks - cyndy
I know it seems unbelievable, but only 100 mg at night. But it really works for me at that low level. In fact, I cannot sleep without it. Somewhat of an addiction I guess, but I figure it is relatively harmless at such a low dose.
I'm also on Tegretol 400 mg (new, and not really working) and Eskalith at 900 mg.Janet
Posted by Cynthia M on May 16, 2000, at 16:39:39
In reply to Cyndy, posted by Janet on May 16, 2000, at 15:59:59
Janet - eskalith I have never heardof. I am also on Carbatrol 900mg 2x day and gabitril 8 mg day and remeron 15 mg day and klonopin prn all in a ddition to the seroquel which I have begun using additionaly to avoid the urge to cut, no success yet. Cyndy
> > How much Seroquel? I am taking 300mg at night and then I take another 100 in the morning. So far I haven't noticed any difference. I would be interested to know what your dosages are.Thanks - cyndy
>
> I know it seems unbelievable, but only 100 mg at night. But it really works for me at that low level. In fact, I cannot sleep without it. Somewhat of an addiction I guess, but I figure it is relatively harmless at such a low dose.
> I'm also on Tegretol 400 mg (new, and not really working) and Eskalith at 900 mg.
>
> Janet
Posted by Janet on May 16, 2000, at 22:22:15
In reply to Re: Cyndy, posted by Cynthia M on May 16, 2000, at 16:39:39
> Janet - eskalith I have never heardof.
Cyndy, I'm sorry, I should of said (Lithium) beside it. It is just a different type in the time release capacities the way I understand it.
Janet
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.