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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 0:02:45
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Help on October 5, 1999, at 7:27:09
> May be. May be there is no reason great enough to justify the pain. May be there is no help. May be there is only all alone.
Why would you want to justify pain? There is no reason you were meant to be in pain. There is no reason you were meant to be alone. Why? You are not _meant_ to be either of those, that's why.
So stop trying to justify it.
Help starts with number one. If you're looking for a reason as to why pain is a just and proper burden for you to bear, then some small part of you, at the least, has accepted being a victim. Don't let your pain turn you into some helpless victim, passively accepting your "due". If you want help, then you have to grab it.
But you already know that ... you came to this board and spoke up, didn't you?
That is a good start. You came here and rather eloquently asked for help with a word and a nickname. So, what are you going to do next? Some of your friends here on this board have some good suggestions. Pick one and do it.
"Help" may be the best name for you. Maybe you meant it as a cry, but it is also your own answer. If alone is what you believe yourself to be, then you must be the Help you need.
We can offer advice and a sympathetic ear. We understand, maybe unlike anyone around you (or so you may believe), because we've been in the same dark place (and maybe not all that long ago).
But Help, you've gotta do the work for yourself.
No apologies, no surrender
Bob
"Every year it's the same
and I feel it again
I'm a loser, no chance to win.
Leaves caught falling
Comedown is calling
Lonliness starts sinking in
But I'm one
I am one
And I can see
that this is me
and I will be
You'll all see
I'm the one"
-- Pete Townsend
Posted by dj on October 6, 1999, at 1:17:55
In reply to There is no "why", posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 0:02:45
Bob,
You're in a scrappy mood tonight, my man, by the tenor of your postings. Looks good on you!
Further to your very eloquent comments to HELP he/she might want to consider the buddhist viewpoint which differentiates between pain and suffering. Pain is just pain, and suffering comes from not letting go of the pain or the pleasure for that matter. ie. -- always expecting things to be different than they are rather than accepting and dealing with them as they are. What is, is, as Janice and others would say. And as some teens put it, get over it!
So from my understanding of the buddhist perspective you need to quit nurturing your pain to lessen and perhaps let go of your suffering. Easier said than done but there have been many helpful suggestions made to you. So get over it and get on with it. Self pity can be very addicing, as I know only too well, but so can self affirmation, or so I am told... ; > !
> > May be. May be there is no reason great enough to justify the pain. May be there is no help. May be there is only all alone.
>
> Why would you want to justify pain? There is no reason you were meant to be in pain. There is no reason you were meant to be alone. Why? You are not _meant_ to be either of those, that's why.
>
> So stop trying to justify it.
>
> Help starts with number one. If you're looking for a reason as to why pain is a just and proper burden for you to bear, then some small part of you, at the least, has accepted being a victim. Don't let your pain turn you into some helpless victim, passively accepting your "due". If you want help, then you have to grab it.
>
Posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 11:02:31
In reply to Re: There is no "why", posted by dj on October 6, 1999, at 1:17:55
Knowing ignorance is strength.
Ignoring knowledge is sickness.If one is sick of sickness, then one is not sick.
The sage is not sick because he is sick of sickness.
Therefore, he is not sick.
Posted by Dee on October 6, 1999, at 11:53:24
In reply to Tao Te Ching, verse 71, posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 11:02:31
S. Mitchell's translation:
Notknowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease.
First realize that you are sick;
then you can move toward health.The Master is her own physician.
She has healed herself of all knowing.
Thus she is truly whole.
Posted by phyl on October 6, 1999, at 17:32:38
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Help on October 5, 1999, at 7:27:09
> May be. May be there is no reason great enough to justify the pain. May be there is no help. May be there is only all alone.
Why--This page http://mentalhelp.net/samaritans/textfry.htm made sense to me when I felt that there wasn't any help. I'm not even sure who the fella is but he spoke of the despair and nothingness I've felt. There are people to talk to even when we feel like we are all alone.
You don't have to make sense of it all. This board is a wonderful place to test the waters of sharing our pain with others who DO understand. No one knows exactly what it is that you are feeling but perhaps typing out a tiny bit of that nothingness you feel will allow us to relate. I know that I've felt the pointlessness of it all many, many, many times. I'm still here, thanks in part to finding others like me who can understand my despair, my ups and downs, my most painful moments. I've found this help by reading the posts on this board, in books like On the Edge of Darkness--Kathy Cronkite, by calling anonymous numbers where the trained people on the other end of the line are there specifically to listen to me in my darkest hours...helping me through to that speck of light that has always come, even when I didn't believe it ever would.
I don't claim to have answers...I can only offer pieces of the path I have traveled in hopes that maybe it will strike a chord of recognition and maybe even give the gift of a glimmer of hope. I've spent years in and out of the deepest, most painful place one can imagine and yet--I am still here. I am gently holding you in my heart with the tender care that others(often strangers) showed me in my times of utter despair. My heart is with you. --phyl
Posted by Noa on October 6, 1999, at 22:03:05
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by phyl on October 6, 1999, at 17:32:38
This may be just semantics, but I tend to understand the words "self pity" or "feeling sorry for oneself" differently than most people do. To me it is not a bad thing. But to blame oneself, which is what many of us do when we experience pain, ah, that is the thing to avoid. That is the suffering.
Posted by Noa on October 6, 1999, at 22:07:01
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by phyl on October 6, 1999, at 17:32:38
The two translations somehow reminded me of the old story of the computer translation of the proverb "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" from English to Russian and back to English. APparently it came back as "The vodka is tasty but the meat is rotten".
Posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 23:35:08
In reply to Re: WHY? 2) silly post, posted by Noa on October 6, 1999, at 22:07:01
> The two translations somehow reminded me of the old story of the computer translation of the proverb "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" from English to Russian and back to English. APparently it came back as "The vodka is tasty but the meat is rotten".
While funny, I don't think it's all that silly. It gets to the heart of the matter. Meaning shifts from moment to moment. The "true" answer to Why? right here, right now isn't written in stone, but rather (as Sting put it) "on the surface of a lake."
Back to the computer metaphor:
The first version of the Newton (Apple's PDA that brought handwriting recognition to the, uh, well, technophiles ... yeah) had a recognition program that also tried to spellcheck for you automatically -- not only did it take a stab at turning your scribbles into computer text, it tried to figure out what you really meant to write. So, someone wrote in the poem Jabberwocky to see what would come out. The result was a new poem called "Tablespoons" ... "Oh fractious day! Cartoon! Cathay! He chortled in his joy"GIGO ... garbage in, garbage out.
Perhaps a better take on Why? from a computer perspective is like the old joke about Microsoft Technical Support -- "100% accurate, and completely useless". There are more important questions to ask. Where next? How? When?
(When? Maybe tomorrow ... it's past my bedtime and I still gotta post a new thread.)
Bob
Posted by Racer on October 7, 1999, at 6:22:52
In reply to Re: WHY? 2) silly post, posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 23:35:08
The original computer translation was to Japanese and back. "The wine was good, but the meat had spoiled" came back when the phrase went through the translator from English to Japanese and back. That was decades ago, with the first string of AI trials.
As for the meaning issue, while this is supposed to be a silly post, there is a serious side to it. Wittgenstein's word games covers this, but I can't make my brain work enough to try to explain it. Basically, boundaries of meaning are fluid. We must draw them according to our current needs. Philosophical Investigations, section 66 (I think).
As for the language, this is the trouble with it: language is so easy a baby can learn it, yet so complex that a computer can't. Explains a lot about MS's grammar checker, huh?
Posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 9:44:56
In reply to Re: WHY? 2) silly post, posted by Racer on October 7, 1999, at 6:22:52
Help, you see where all this has gone?
I'd like to apologize and say I don't mean to make light of your feelings, but having been there and beyond most often the only saving grace is realizing the absolute absurdity of your situation. My life has taken a sudden and somewhat unexpected plunge into hell in the last week, the paranoia is creeping in that its not the rest of the world but, rather, it truly is me who doesn't fit and that the pain and despair and betrayal I've experienced is all well-deserved.
The only thing I can of think at that moment, besides wondering how cool it would be to take a flying leap off the top of the World Trade Center, is how patently absurd this conspiracy theory is. Shit happens. Preferably, there would be a uniform distribution of it throught the population, but it just ain't so. I doubt it's random. But, for me, the only way to avoid it happening is to maneuver yourself above all the sphincters pointed your way. Again, the best way for me to start that process is a good laugh at what's been messing with me.
So, Help, I wish you these things:
1) That you feel welcome with the response that you've received.
2) That you know that even though we've never seen your face nor heard your voice -- all the same, you are our friend.
3) That you've been at least distracted, and preferably laughing as we slide from Why? to semiotics to word games and hermeneutics to misquoting Brits to "the Tao that can be told is not the Eternal Tao". That last bit is my best answer to Why? You can say what you want, but it will never be enough.So laugh at it instead,
No, I mean laugh like you MEAN it.
Bob
Posted by Help on October 7, 1999, at 11:43:33
In reply to Now, just look at what you've done!, posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 9:44:56
Sorry, Bob. Feelings behind words in some posts reach deep. The play with words and emotions sends me away. Do not feel the humor. Have used humor all my life to mitigate the sadness. Have used words to distance from the pain. Have never viewed self as victim. Have prepared for the fight every day of my life. Just tired of the humor,words & fight. Glad you are not. Glad to hear other people who are not. Thanks for reaching into my world. It does count. It does make a difference.
Posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 11:58:19
In reply to Help, posted by Help on October 7, 1999, at 11:43:33
Then I'll pray that you can find the humor that heals soon. I'm glad to hear that some of the words above have helped.
Be well,
Bob
Posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 14:19:49
In reply to Re: Help, posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 11:58:19
Re: Why 2) Silly Post....is this related to Y2K?
Posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 14:22:09
In reply to Another silly thought, posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 14:19:49
Bob, are you ok? You have been sounding a bit revved in the direction of irritable, angry, etc. lately. (Me? I've just been heading in the direction of clanging and non-sequitur).
Posted by Racer on October 7, 1999, at 15:51:51
In reply to Help, posted by Help on October 7, 1999, at 11:43:33
No wonder you're so wrung out, if you're girding on your armor against the world every day. That's a very familiar feeling for me, and it's one that takes a lot out of me. By the end of the day, I have no energy, and just have to be alone to try to unwind. In fact, it's one of the issues with my new SO, because he wants to live in a city, and I want to stay in the country. In the City, that ON switch stays there, and I burn out fast. Here in my little cowtown, I get home at night, spin around real fast about four times, and then sit down and purr for a bit with the cats. The strain of keeping on my armor all the time gets to the point I don't even want to get out of bed. It's really awful.
So, now that I've handed you my credentials as a tense, fragile, fellow sufferer, let's move to the next question.
When I'm in the City, I have a hard time with social events, having to have so much unwind time at the end of the day. If I see anyone after work, I end up awake until all hours, trying to relax enough to sleep so that I can wake up fresh the next day. If I go to bed tense, I wake up tense. What about you?
And now, WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT??
It's not enough to know the problem, that's only the first step. Are you tense and driving people away because they don't know why? Are you waiting for a fairy godmother to hand you a coach and footmen made from a pumpkin and mice? Are you reaching out to people who can't respond because of their own problems? Are you reaching out at all?
I lost a good friend becaue of my depression. I don't miss her much anymore, because she couldn't have been a TRUE friend if she disappeared because of my depression, right? My true friends are all still here, and at the worst of it, they stood by me, brought me food to try to make me eat, called to make sure Iwas alive, emailed me tons of jokes, and occasionally told me that it was difficult to deal wiht me because I was so depressed that it was a real drag. They were honest, they told me that they got really sick of hearing how awful the world was. That was a drag. They told me that I had to DO something, even though I couldn't make anything happen. Eventually, one of them checked me into a hospital, and a year later a doctor finally set up a med combo that helped me. It's not a fast process, in some cases, but the longer one waits to start, the longer before one feels better.
So, do you know why you feel alone? Is it the idea that the 'right' person would make everything better? Is it because you truly are alone? Is it because in your despair you can't see the people who are there for you?
Let me tell you about a very alienating experience I had a while back: one of my best girlfriends was complaining that no one loved her unconditionally and that's the only thing she needed to be happy. It took me a moment or two, but then I told her that I loved her unconditionally. She thought about it, and said that she knew that it was true (I've stuck through some ugly parts of her life, and supported her through decisions I disagreed with), but that wasn't what she MEANT. We are good enough friends that I could get over it, but that's a slap in the face, you know?
Good luck to you, and please continue to reach out here. When I was at my worst, I got a ton of help here, mostly the best support and generosity I've ever experienced (and you know who you are), maybe we can offer something similar to you? I hope so.
Posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 19:01:13
In reply to On a more serious note..., posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 14:22:09
> Bob, are you ok? You have been sounding a bit revved in the direction of irritable, angry, etc. lately.
Thanks for asking, Noa. No, I definitely am not okay ... my environment has me swinging from tears to growls, depending on my locale. All the same (and Joe Mechanic, where you been man?, aught to appreciate this), the road's rocky as far ahead as I can see right now and my suspension may be shot, but this chasis has seen worse and held together just fine. No need to worry, because I have a Cheerful and Sunny disposition!
> (Me? I've just been heading in the direction of clanging and non-sequitur).
Sort of counterpoints the surrealism of the underlying metaphor, doesn't it?Bob
(how'd you like my Bill T. Cat immitation in the subject?)
Posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 19:51:24
In reply to Re: On a more serious note... aCk! 8^P, posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 19:01:13
Bob, you haven't mentioned your psychoanalyst girlfriend lately. Just wondering. And a little eensy bit concerned.
Posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 20:05:46
In reply to What about Bob?, posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 19:51:24
> Bob, you haven't mentioned your psychoanalyst girlfriend lately. Just wondering. And a little eensy bit concerned.
Oh, she's still around ... but more a part of the problem than of the solution ... actually, that's a bit mean spirited. She's had to deal with a lot from me ... it's just getting to be too much of some things, too little of others, for her.
Posted by Dee on October 7, 1999, at 21:20:58
In reply to Re: What about Bob?, posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 20:05:46
Bob, you're dating a psycho analyst? I've missed that. I have a friend who used to date one, he put an end on that because every time he tried to have a converstaion she would say something like 'How does that make you feel?' This is not a joke.
For you, Help... I am out of words, but you are in my mind and in my heart. Even when I am not @ my computer.
It makes me sad to thikn apout that dark, dark place where you cry. I once saw a kitten in a snowstorm at Union Square in NYC, standing at a construction site, and crying, crying, crying. It was the most horrible sound I have ever heard, so full of terror, hopelessness, separation, loneliness - it sounded like the little thing was being torn in pieces by red-core steel claws from hell in which it was screaming.
I have been in that place, I guess we all have. And we all have come out of it, and I believe that you will too, and I pray that that will happen soon.If I could take some of your pain, and carry your load for just a little while, to make it easier for you, I will gladly do it. When it hits you next time, take as much of it as you can and toss it my way.
None of us can do this alone. And you don't need to
Dee
Posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 22:41:21
In reply to Re: What about Bob?, posted by Dee on October 7, 1999, at 21:20:58
> Bob, you're dating a psycho analyst?
Not quite ... she's a clinician in training, doing her internship this year. Theoretically, she's psychodynamic to the core ... but she's had some halfway house work (and live-in) experience in the past that has given her a lot of real world in-your-face experience. She tries her best not to be my analyst, and she really knows meds well (from that halfway house stuff).
Bob
Posted by Dee on October 7, 1999, at 22:50:58
In reply to Help, posted by Help on October 7, 1999, at 11:43:33
Ps. I wrote a post just like yours, some two months ago... Something like "In a dark, dark place -Help!" Try to accept it as it comes, yield to it, be like water flowing past obstacles, and let it go.
Easy for me to say now. Two months ago I couldn't think!
what helped me was to turn on the lights, lay down in bed and aloowed myself a moment of unrestricted self-pity and I cried and cried and cried.Lots of love
Dee
Posted by Noa on October 8, 1999, at 0:43:56
In reply to Re: Help, posted by Dee on October 7, 1999, at 22:50:58
Help, me too.
I'd also like to suggest an alternative image to the one about taking some of your pain. It is the image of us holding your hope for you, until you are ready to hold it for yourself. When depressed, I have always had difficulty believing there is hope for change, and I have needed someone else to hold the hope for me, so it doesn't get lost altogether, cuz I certainly couldn't hold on to it.
Posted by Racer on October 8, 1999, at 2:20:22
In reply to Re: Help, posted by Noa on October 8, 1999, at 0:43:56
Noa, that was really wonderful. I love that image, because it's so true. In that place (and many of you know how bad I was a month or two ago), it's so difficult to see that there is any hope, or any reason to hope FOR hope. It's just dark and dim and ugly, and awful.
What a great board, and what great people. Most of us are only halfway there ourselves, and yet we're the first to reach out when someone else needs a hand to hold. Why are we, the most generous spirited group, the ones to suffer this way? Maybe that's the trade off? Maybe it's our suffering that makes it possible for us to empathize and want to help? Just a thought.
Noa, your post really moved me. Thank you.
> Help, me too.
>
> I'd also like to suggest an alternative image to the one about taking some of your pain. It is the image of us holding your hope for you, until you are ready to hold it for yourself. When depressed, I have always had difficulty believing there is hope for change, and I have needed someone else to hold the hope for me, so it doesn't get lost altogether, cuz I certainly couldn't hold on to it.
Posted by janice on October 8, 1999, at 21:46:44
In reply to Response to Noa's post, posted by Racer on October 8, 1999, at 2:20:22
Hi Help,
I love what Noa said; you need someone to hold the hope for you. Help, one reason I love to see a psychiatrist or therapist is for me to get some relief from my problems. For that one hour, I give them my disorders, and let them do the 'figuring it out', let them think about my biology, let them do the hoping, let them give me some ideas about what to do next. It's such a relief to give my problems away for a bit. The burden is too heavy for anyone to carry on their own.
Sometimes I think living on earth is hell; and we are here to try to learn how to transform this very dense energy. Especially those of us who have depression. We have no options, this is our job. Not trying to get religious on you, Help; just hoping to help give you some meaning to your very bad time. Janice.
Posted by Bob on October 8, 1999, at 21:59:19
In reply to Response to Noa's post, posted by Racer on October 8, 1999, at 2:20:22
That was a beautiful post, Noa. Even for one here who has sworn off hope and tried to be rid of it.
> Why are we, the most generous spirited group, the ones to suffer this way? Maybe that's the trade off? Maybe it's our suffering that makes it possible for us to empathize and want to help? Just a thought.
Racer, there's a prominent view from what might best be called cultural psychology about a group of people with brain disorders related, perhaps tightly so, to those of us here -- children with learning disabilities (the high number out there with ADD/ADHD, plus those of us who are just undiagnosed, speaks to this realtionship). The traditional view of LD children is that they fail at schooling, so these children need remediation. This other view says it's the schools who have failed the children, and the ways in which we teach them are what is in need of remediation.
Perhaps the "brain disorders" we have are not dis-orders, but other-orders. "Exceptional" is not a euphemism for "retard"-- its a term that appropriately describes those who are exceptions to the rule.
Lately, I'm finding myself pretty damn proud to be exceptional, if it means being like the rest of the folks on this board.
Bob
(thanks yet again, Dr. Bob =^)
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