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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:55:24
it works out for some people
the people who can let the sh*t roll off
the people who were loved
to some extent... to some extent
the people who were able to internalise something of that
to some extent
but sometimes life just doesn't work out
internalisation does not occur
there is a failure
Le Doux talks about how wiring...
doesn't change
phobias are resistent to extinction
and once extinguished
change the context back to where the conditioning occured
change the context so that there is environmental stress
and what do you know?
spontaneous recovery
which sounds like a good thing
but it is not
spontaneous recovery of phobia
of conditioned responses
i'd rather be labile
psychomotor retarded
than have spontaneous recovery
of my f*cked up responses
they never do go away
that is the point
they never do go away
just go into remission when times are good
but times are not good
and there is nothing to be done
you know you have to be in a reasonable place
in order to accept the support that is offered
why?
because it is never enough
to turn back time
it is never enough
but when one is in a reasonably good place
it can go some way
can go some way
and the trouble is that when one is in a bad place
one is selfish
so totally absorbed on ones own hurts
and even the altruism that is offered
(as must be if one is to be considered worthy of love)
even the altruism that is offered
is egotistical
as it must be
because it is there in the effort to
become worthyi'm not worthy
did the altruistic thing for a while
and that was helping that was
but change the context
not fit for human company
others must be protected from me
and what do you know
spontaneous recoveryi know i'm not fit
you don't need to block me for that
but it isn't even about showing me i'm not fit
it is about showing others i'm not fit
showing them not to listen to me
because there is something wrong with what i'm saying
i get blcoked so others know not to take me seriously not to listen to me
they are entitled to be upset with me
validation of that
that is what it is
and of course the boards run smoother without me
or somethingor without part of me
oh if only you could pick and choose
if only you could
pick the bits you like
and kill the bits you don't
trouble iwth that is that you are liable to kill the bits you wanted to keep
as you did
oh well done
well done indeedsometimes i wish i could do that
pick and choose
pick and choose
but it isn't that easy
it isn't that simple
and however you look at it
here is not the place
here is not the place for me
and there it iswhy is it that you think i've been going on about small boards?
to stop this happening
to f*cking stop this happening
to work on getting me back together
but when you try and kill of the bits you don't like
well
what do you expecthere is not the place
it makes me worseit makes me worse.
Posted by James K on May 7, 2006, at 0:33:04
In reply to sometimes life just doesn't work out, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:55:24
I was writing you a line by line response. Like a conversation. Then I saw my name on the board and got distracted. This is the writing board, so I'm going to call that a poem. I understood most of it. I wish it weren't true that as soon as I feel it again, I'll feel it again. But it happened two days ago, so I know.
My messes are still all over this place. I don't like the conflicting emotions I feel about this. I wish you were happier about here. I like you here. I was gone for a while, and everything is different and the same.
Sorry, sobriety has robbed me of wit and anger and eloquence. Curtm seems like a cool guy. (irrelevant interjection)
It is nice to think of you reading this somewhere in the world though.
Later,
James K
Posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 1:07:06
In reply to Re: sometimes life just doesn't work out » Estella, posted by James K on May 7, 2006, at 0:33:04
> My messes are still all over this place. I don't like the conflicting emotions I feel about this. I wish you were happier about here. I like you here. I was gone for a while, and everything is different and the same.
messes get archived eventually.
but people haul examples of this and that out of the archives
to make a point every now and then
it isn't about you
i hope you know that
it isn't about you
it is about bob
but it isn't even about bob
do you know that
it isn't even about bob
it is about past baggage
that is why it hurts so much
the past baggage
not saying that bob doesn't do stuff to maintain the analogy / fail to do stuff
to break the analogy
just saying that the reason why it hurts so bad
but knowing that doesn't help
knowing that doesn't help
there are more connections from amygdala to cortex
than from cortex to amygdala
and so whatever is in the cortex
is not really in the position to help
and there it is
but of course i'm being selfish 'cause this is about me
and past hurts
and sh*t like that
and i think i need to curl up for a while
i'm sorry life is hard for you
Posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 5:10:10
In reply to sometimes life just doesn't work out, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:55:24
And it just doesn't work out
I'd have probably been okay
If I had stayed over here
Over in this little corner of the world
But no
One has to venture to admin to get the name change
And then Larry's post
And then one just gets sucked right on in
And stuff to say
Stuff to be said
And a block is immanent
I can tell
I can feel it in the air
Hanging over my head
Waiting...
Waiting...
But it has been like this ever since...But it doesn't matter
'Cause the harm to me
The harm to others like me
Simply can't compare to all the possible people
Who live inside Bob's head
Or something...
To the good of the group
And when the individual
When the good of the individual
Conflicts with the good of the group
What is to be done?
And I understand the answer
And I understand why it has to be that way
Only I do not agree with the acts that are
Supposedly required for the good of the group
I do notAnd here is not the place for me
But then I knew that already.
And I tried to express...
How sometimes one does hurt...
I tried to express
But to be fair I was given no guarantee
Just the thought that it 'might' be okay to express that
But wrong.
It is not okay to express that
Maybe I'm the only person in the world who does that
I don't think so
Maybe I'm the only person in the world who admits to that
Maybe I'm the only person in the world stupid enough to try and talk about that on these boards
Maybe.But that is life.
Happens sometimes.
Clash of the issues or something
Like the people who go to psychology
And get a hard time because of their feelings for their t
Or because of what they have done with their t
Stuff like that
So they leaveAnd one could say the boards just aren't the place...
I don't see why you don't give a sh*t about those actual people
Given how you go on about hypothetical possible people who probably only exist in your head and all.
But here isn't the place.
And me.
I guess you tried.
Sort of.
But the damage was done
I hate special_k
With all my guts
Horrible horrible horrible
And I wish she was the one that diedBut here isn't the place
I guess it comes of people wanting babble to be everything to everyone
Sometimes ya just gotta figure whats most important to the boards
Numbers
I think you rate numbers rather highly
I mean you have got a few handles out of me
But can't compareNumbers
And people like me ain't conducive
At least... Not once traumatised
Re traumatisedSometimes the nature of the problem
Prevents progress being made
Clash of the issues
It is the f*cking blocking system
And it is that this place is too large
And it is that the culture is such that...Well
Certain things
Certain topics
Are off limits
One must keep the peace
One must be good
And so on and so forthAnd two more weeks of hell
Evenings and mornings mostly
But not sleeping ain't really working out for me either
The images
The feelingsI can't hardly express them
And when I do
Here is not the place.I'm sorry
Sorry I wasn't a better person
A more healthy person
I person who was better able to dissociate
A person who could have let the good ones play here
Kept the good ones playing here
And as for the rest
WellBetter off blocked I guess
But then we knew that already
Back to the room
Back to the room
Not fit for human company and co
Just not nice
Not likeableI'm sorry
I think I should go
And I think I really need to do my best...
Not to come back.
'Cause it hurts too much.
Posted by zeugma on May 7, 2006, at 9:36:58
In reply to Re: sometimes life just doesn't work out, posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 5:10:10
leDoux is right about the wiring
that's why cognitive behavioral therapy failed for me.
insofar as i post here, i will try to make it a feasible place for you
james K is a good person interjections and all
Problem always is, nothing can be made safe. Constant warnings in the subway system have convinced me of this
-z
Posted by Estella on May 10, 2006, at 5:51:59
In reply to Re: sometimes life just doesn't work out » Estella, posted by zeugma on May 7, 2006, at 9:36:58
>Le Doux talks about how wiring...
doesn't change
phobias are resistent to extinction
and once extinguished
change the context back to where the conditioning occured
change the context so that there is environmental stress
and what do you know?
spontaneous recovery>there are more connections from amygdala to cortex
than from cortex to amygdala
and so whatever is in the cortex
is not really in the position to helpNow that I am calmer...
Very roughly... Jackendoff has a three step model of visual perception.
1) Early / Low level representation: Basic sensory features such as lines and edges.
2) Intermediate level representation: Some integration so shading is shaddow and objects have three dimensionality.If intermediate level representations) are attended to (via the process of attention) then they are able to proceed to stage three:
3) High level representation: Objects are categorised (cup, lion, etc) by being matched with a percept from memory.
Conscious experience of visual perception is supposed to be: Attended Intermediate Level Representations (The AIRS Model of Conscious Visual Experience). I won't bore people with the neurology...
Prinz argues that emotions are Attended Intermediate Level Representations as well... Currently I'm a little hazy so this might be wrong but lets have a go...
1) Early processing (basic stimulus features trigger a response in the amygdala)
2) Mid level processing (a message is sent from the amygdala to parts of the brain that are typically involved in registering bodily changes)
3) High level processing (categorisation of emotion? also the thoughts and images which can trigger emotions from the top down - by sending a message to 2, or to 1 so it gets to 2)...But the point is...
The point is...That conscious experience...
Involves ATTENTION.
And yeah pain can capture ones attention
Just like movement in the periphery can capture ones attention
And attention can be reflexive just like blinking can be reflexiveBut the point... (I am getting there... I am getting there...)
Is that mindfulness meditation works by...
Improving ones control over ones attention.
People can learn to have more control over their attention
It isn't perfect...
But one can learn.Better to focus on what one can do
Than to get too bogged down in the damage already done I guess...
Posted by Estella on May 10, 2006, at 6:41:42
In reply to Re: sometimes life just doesn't work out, posted by Estella on May 10, 2006, at 5:51:59
and le doux speculates that in the future...
human evolution might continue down the path so that...we gain greater cognitive / high level control over our emotions
(so that there are just as many pathways from cortex to amygdala as there are from amygdala to cortex)
possibly even that we gain still greater control over our emotions
(so that there are more pathways from cortex to amygdala than from amygdala to cortex)
though this latter point...
might not be something to aim for...
emotions evolved for some reason (don't ask me what at this point...)
but emotional responses might be a much needed heuristic for cranking through game theory and probabilities... (especially for someone who doesn't like math ug);-)
and mindfullness meditation...
well...
imho teach it to your kids...
and imho it might alter neural circutry...
it might just...
it might just change patterns of activation...
it might teach one to regain control...
Posted by gardenergirl on May 10, 2006, at 10:47:02
In reply to Re: sometimes life just doesn't work out, posted by Estella on May 10, 2006, at 6:41:42
> > and imho it might alter neural circutry...
> it might just...
> it might just change patterns of activation...
> it might teach one to regain control...I seem to recall a study of Buddhist monks who meditated daily which showed neural changes.
At any rate, you make very good points about the potential benefits of mindfulness meditation, and the risks are rather slim.
A very good reminder for me. Thanks!
gg
Posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 23:36:58
In reply to Re: sometimes life just doesn't work out » Estella, posted by gardenergirl on May 10, 2006, at 10:47:02
hey.
how are you doing?
are you mad at me?
Posted by gardenergirl on May 13, 2006, at 11:46:51
In reply to Re: sometimes life just doesn't work out » gardenergirl, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 23:36:58
Nope, not mad at you. Why do you ask?
I've been busy IRL, though. Oh, I think I need to reply to an email? sorry.
gg
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 13:49:22
In reply to Re: sometimes life just doesn't work out » Estella, posted by gardenergirl on May 13, 2006, at 11:46:51
> Nope, not mad at you.
:-)
> Why do you ask?
Just my paranoia... Was planning on going around asking people... And making amends where need be. Just thought I'd start with you thats all.
> I've been busy IRL, though. Oh, I think I need to reply to an email? sorry.No its okay. It isn't about that. I was just asking. But you aren't mad. Thats okay. Thanks :-)
Really.
It is okay.
This is the end of the thread.
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